@stanfunky"99.95% of BYU students in a given school year remain in
school and don't have Honor Code issues."BYU has a 90% retention
rate for Freshmen. 78.5% of students graduate with 6 years.To be
clear, these are good numbers. BYU is excellent for overall retention and
graduation.Which makes your decision to blatantly lie so very, very
The idea of now being presumed to be innocent until proven guilty. What a novel
There is nothing wrong with honor codes, and many honor codes violates people
thoughts that there shouild be only one code of honor, personal and private and
no one can be forced to obey other peoples rules and codes of honor. Personal
honor codes test a student resolve to do good and be honorable and that personal
beliefs are not deemed honorable to the majority. Honor codes are for everyone
and only one code can be allowed and if you don't want to honor the code
then you are excused from your job or the school.
Utah State Code: 53-13-103 (xii), allows for private universities to create
their own police departments. Regardless of what side you are on, please write
to your legislators specifically about this aspect of state law.
I'm confused about the BYU POLICE. 1) They are funded by a
private entity and not by taxpayer dollars, yet they are state certified by UT
POST. Where does their authority begin and end? How does that factor into their
records access?2) All other LDS/BYU colleges and universities have
campus security. Are their campus crime rates at or below that of BYU?3) What are the pros and cons of BYU Police transitioning to BYU Security and
city police handling all criminal matters on campus?
Neifty,You agree that BYU is not a church but then criticize it for
not being one. When a student enters into an agreement, a promise,
a contract to satisfy the requirement of the school he is committed; he
agrees/promises to behave in a certain way; for it's part the school
agrees/promises, to behave in a certain way.It is a free will choice
by both parties, to obligate each other, to each other. Please
explain how that is hypocritical.
@Crazy in California,I am not conflating BYU with The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.However, I am pointing out; that
BYU's Honor Code is often purported BY BYU as representing the Standards of
said church. And further that BYU continually proclaims that its standards, its
staff, AND even its students as being representatives of said church to the
world (hence the supposed need for higher standards in the first place).If BYU is promoting itself as representing the church; but its rules and
regulations actually go against church teachings; then it is clearly showing
itself full of hypocrisy.Yes, the church run school and church org
serve extremely different purposes; no doubt about that; as I have pointed out
as well in many other articles. And again; why then does 99% of the Honor Code
even apply. So called "worthiness" in the church should have no baring
on whether or not a person can receive an education, the two things aren't
related.Sure, tithing is used to supplement tuition. Non tithe
payers such as non-members or "serious sinners" should simply be
required to pay full tuition; that would be a reasonable CONSEQUENCE to
violation of honor code.
I am totally fine with BYu, their honor code and situation in society as of
today. That is freedom of religion, which I support. However, the BYu Police
will be decertified shortly, a "true blessing" for all Utahns and
everyone else in the USA. And, Y sports fans should NEVER expect any conference
to give them the time of day, let alone invite them..........way too much water
under the bridge already and normal society will never tolerate the blatantly
intolerant.BYu is a private school........good for them!
NeifyT , You, along with others, conflate/confuse BYU with The
Church.They are not the same; they are different.One is
a church.One is a school.They have different
requirements, functions, expectations, missions; more specifically different
acceptance/attendance requirements.This is one reason why Church
Bishops are not suited to administer the HC.When you promise to live
the HC you are committing to BYU (school), not The Church.Commitment
to live the HC is a promise to contribute to the specific environment that BYU
provides.By making this commitment you are entering into a contract
to do your part.It is a choice to become part of a learning
community within a specific learning context.BYU attendance, living
the BYU HC, are not requirements to be a Church member in good standing.
@Michigan Cougsfan68,An employment "contract" is just that;
a contract. An honor code is NOT a contract; it is an "expectation" in
this case a very unrealistic expectation. And I am pretty sure the professor was
NOT aware of the expectation to not drink coffee on campus; it wasn't until
he had a mug of coffee on his desk that things blew up.If the Honor
Code is to be a contract CALL it "The BYU Contract"!@M_Hawke,Sorry if my truncated explanations (due to character
limitations) don't always make sense. What I was trying to say is that the
punishments should fit the crime so to speak. Yes, there are many very important
aspects of the Honor Code; such as women not having men in their dorms at night;
good reason for that. But some things in there do not fit Gospel Principles as
taught in the LDS Church; in fact are extremely the opposite of what the church
teaches. No Coffee is part of the WofW, but only for baptized members.My wife is not a member, would be extremely hypocritical for me to refuse to
buy coffee or to tell her to go over to the neighbors if she wants to drink
coffee; just because I don't drink coffee. Same with facial hair; its not
against Gospel Principles.
@ Mayfair,You are 100% correct! BYu's owners' sole goal is
creating dependable, lifetime tithe paying members in the future. That is whY
they subsidize it so much. It is all a #s game indeed.It is a
private school so they can do whatever they want, except their police force that
are Utah state public certified/enabled..........that will be gone shortly,
Seagull Suz asks:. "Why the double standard? ...should members be saying the
same at church?...telling members if they can't follow "For the
Strength of Youth" to go find another church?"It's not
a double standard--there is unlimited space for people to be in the Church.There is a very limited number of spots available at BYU. If
someone has issues with the Honor Code, or it's supposed fairness, or
it's enforcement or anything negative about it, their spot should be
vacated and given to one of the tens of thousands of other Church members across
the Earth who have zero issues with anything related to the Honor Code. And who
would rejoice at the chance to attend BYU and follow the Code completely and
99% of BYu students are ardent LDS that come from very protective/sheltered
backgrounds and their parents are the ones beyond concerned about their
hopefully wholesome college life. It is getting far more strict at the Y than it
used to be last century. Obedience is paramount, nothing less will be tolerated.
Why have a rule at all? The church spends a members entire life before school
teaching and telling them how to act, feel and behave. They send 18 year olds
out on their own for 2 years but can't leave the kids at school alone.
I've never understood it.
Thank you Silvex. Exactly! If you plan on attending BYU you are aware of the
implications of following the Honor Code. If not, go elsewhere
BYU is trying to be like other schools. It's sad, really.
It's so simple even a kindergartner can understand. Just abide by the
rules and you'll be fine - the rules you agreed to when you signed your
acceptance letter. The statistically small amount of people having trouble with
the honor code (and who are getting way too much attention for it thanks to
social media) are the ones who have stepped outside the clearly drawn lines.
Boundaries are not meant to be elastic or stretchable. There are hundreds of
thousands of successful, rule-abiding alumni who have gone before. BYU is a
church sponsored school that has every right, legally and religiously, to have a
moral and ethical honor code. It also has every right to expel those who chose
not to abide by it.
A BYU education is underpriced by at least $25,000 a year. This rest is paid
for by the tithes of the faithful. If you can't obey the rules get out and
let someone who can obey have your place.
@Brave Sir Robin:"And what about the thousands of other schools around
the world that don't have BYU-P's HC? What about Harvard and MIT? Is
there no reason for them to exist?"You are mistaken. Harvard
does have an honor code. The difference between BYU and Harvard is the
transparency. BYU is clear about their honor code and Harvard is not.
BYU's honor code is public knowledge, Harvard's is not. And Harvard
will look back at applicant's previous life to see if there are instances
where they have ever violated the honor code before they ever applied to
Harvard.Just four weeks ago, an offer to an applicant was rescinded
in a highly publicized incident because the applicant had violated their honor
code when he was 16.In fact, at the time you commented and defended
Harvard's actions. Either your computer has been hacked by a some random
right winger or you are not logging out of the internet when you use computers
in a public place.
What I find interesting is the discrepancy between the language of the code at
BYU institutions and the 'acceptable' worthiness standards of being
a member of the church outside of BYU.Seems to be a very large gap
in how the processes of handling violations in each scenario is administered.For example, the BYU honor code for Dress and Grooming Standards states
specific standards and also references the "For the Strength of Youth"
booklet. At any given LDS ward, there are visual violations of those same HC
standards. I doubt that members are calling out every one of those violations
to their bishops. Yet at BYU institutions it is common practice to report the
same kinds of dress and grooming violations to the HC office.Why the
double standard? So if those who respond by saying if you don't like the
HC, go to a different (non-LDS ) university...should members be saying the same
at church?...telling members if they can't follow "For the Strength of
Youth" to go find another church?Or is the HC just a tactic to
force 'integrity' with rules and punishment for infractions Or do the members who aren't following the booklet, have less integrity
than a BYU student?
@NeifyT Your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. Yes, the Savior just
requires repentance or a change of heart, but there are still consequences for
sinning in the first place. And that just doesn't cut it in real life
situations. After all, that's why we have laws and rules throughout every
facet of our lives. BYU students are subsidized by tithing money--sacred money.
And as such, for those of you who say the HC should be abolished, I say that
great care should be had by whoever attends BYU to honor those tithing funds.
That's what the HC is all about.For those that say that it is a
simple thing, just follow the rules and you're OK, I agree. However, the
imperfect enforcement of the HC is what is being scrutinized. For example, there
have been several examples of if a woman was raped on campus, SHE was put on
probation or kicked out of school for violating chastity. Yet the woman
wasn't the one to violate the rule, right? So that was an injustice.
The rules are necessary.BYU - quit calling the rules an "Honor
Code". An "Honor Code" does not require an enforcement branch of
the University. Honor implies self enforcement. Call it something
like "BYU Standards".
As an alumnus, I appreciate these changes. A big step forward. Brother Utt is
to be congratulated.
It's not difficult. If you want to go to BYU, then don't
do anything that would get you in trouble for disobeying the Code.As
with many others, I and huge number of family/extended family and friends all
went there and nobody ever had any interaction with the Honor Code Office at
all.So simple--just follow the rules you signed up for.Some small % of the students who for some reason feel entitled to not abide by
what they agreed to when they signed up (and are then offened when they get
caught) are keeping this issue in the news.
A school wants to provide a certain kind of education.Tens of
thousands of students line up to get that education.People
can't accept it; everyone has to be like them.
"Each student has a bishop - the bishop is called and set apart to assess
matters of worthiness. The HC office is not."That should be
sufficient. However, previously some bishops have required reporting to the
honor code office while others have not- for the same offense. Some students
who self reported were dealt with more harshly than others. I think
you’re very naive if you think every student in violation of the code has
been forthcoming. I’ve seen firsthand those who graduated while in clear
violation, without any report to the hc office. I’m sure there are many
who never report. Not all is as pure as it seems at BYU
From the article: *The latest updates include presuming students are not in
violation of the Honor Code unless they accept responsibility or the office
makes a determination...*. I wonder why this presumption wasn’t already
part of the policy.
NeifyT, An employment contract is a legal and binding document that the
visiting professor would have signed to be hired by BYU! If this person
didn't check out the school or read the contract, how is that the fault of
the school? Where is the personal responsibility and integrity of the visiting
"changes to reduce 'misunderstanding and anxiety"?Anxiety occurs when a person can't justify, spin, or create an excuse for
wrong doing.There's no misunderstanding of the honor code.
It's pretty simple!
@search diligently"Without it, there is not a lot of reason for
the school to exist."Really? You can't think of a reason
for the school to exist besides the HC? What about the chance to get a degree?
Or go to school with other latter day saints?And what about the
thousands of other schools around the world that don't have BYU-P's
HC? What about Harvard and MIT? Is there no reason for them to exist?
Some of you seem to misunderstand the issue here. Most BYU students--even those
who were protesting -- support the Honor Code itself and don't want it
abolished. The real issue was how the Honor Code was administered, Too often,
the *process* was flawed and unfair to the students, and that's why BYU has
agreed to improve it.Similarly, very few of us will ever be charged
with a crime, but the Constitution gives us reason to believe that if we are,
the process will be predictable and fair. It's crucial to remember that not
everyone who's charged with a wrongdoing is guilty or deserves to be
99.95% of BYU students in a given school year remain in school and don't
have Honor Code issues.Let that sink in as you hear this small
minority of complainers.
“I’m 100% confident still that i would of never ever gone to that
school.”Precisely! Imagine how weird it would be for you to
actually go through the admissions process (having turned down scholarships from
other schools) and then complain when you get there! And you would
not be complaining about housing or the cafeteria; you would literally by
complaining about the one thing that is completely unique to that school. It makes absolutely no sense.
I’m 100% confident still that i would of never ever gone to that
I agree with @Independent. I went to BYU. I never even thought about tattling on
someone. I thought anyone could talk privately with their bishop and repent. If
something illegal happened then the Provo police should be called. I really
think this way of running things at BYU is forced and authoritarian in nature.
Certainly, the naysayers will be out to say that the code sb abolished. But the
Honor Code is fundamental to the reason so many of us have attended the school
or supported our children going there. Without it, there is not a lot of reason
for the school to exist.Those who don't like it, by all means,
go elsewhere. Don't go and see if you can get around the code or modify it.
The majority attending do not want that negativity.
@a_voice_of_REASON - "Accepting the Honor Code is ... the same way accepting
a corporate Code of Conduct is part of accepting a job with many
companies."Let's be REASONABLE here. You mention jobs (and
liken that to schooling). So, I want to delve more into my mentioning of the
guest professor as a good example to your statement about job. The professor
they hired as a "guest professor" who was told he could live on campus;
and would be in a position for a couple of years; was kicked off the campus
because he wanted to drink coffee.Not a member of the church; sure
his "employment" was based on the Code of Conduct of not drinking coffee
on campus. But really, is that what The Church is about being so strict that
someone who isn't even a member is not allowed to drink coffee?Sure he may (or may not) have been aware of not drinking coffee on campus as a
part of his employment. But is that a reasonable requirement for an employer to
expect? I can see an employer telling people they can't have alcoholic
beverages in the office. But, coffee?When an employer has such
"standards" that are outside societal norms; they become UNREASONABLE
expectations. The Honor Code is UNREASONABLE!
Glad to see they are accepting the feedback and making changes. While I
don't doubt many have had negative experiences with the Honor Code office,
I think the outrage is over corner cases. I spent 5 years at BYU. Never had any
kind of interaction with the Honor Code office, nor did I ever know anybody who
did (either reporting or being reported on). I think it's a remarkably
small population of the 33,000 students who ever interact with them in any way.
It's just a non-issue for nearly everyone.That being said,
I'm glad to see that they are making efforts to make the interactions that
do occur better. It shouldn't be a negative experience unless the
individual has no intent or desire to abide by the Honor Code. If that is the
case the individual shouldn't continue as a student as BYU. That's a
conclusion that should be obvious to that student, with or without Honor Code
office involvement. Accepting the Honor Code is part of pursuing an education at
BYU in the same way accepting a corporate Code of Conduct is part of accepting a
job with many companies.
For all the changes; they still don't do what needs to be done.Make the honor code; just that an HONOR code. Change it from a disciplinarian
code; to a teaching code.If someone is found in violation of the
code; teach them the purpose and reason for the code and get them to work toward
living it (you know like the LDS church actually teaches); instead of just going
straight to punishing them for their violation.Christ doesn't
punish people who sin; he only asks for repentance; a change of heart and
following him; and then readily forgives; even if the person commits the same
sin over and over and over.The entire Honor Code Office has become
nothing short of "let's punish people who don't live up to our
extremely elitist standards."They even punished that guest
professor who they invited onto campus and who is not a member of the LDS
church but heaven forbid he drinks a cup of coffee on campus. The entire Honor
Code has become a farce.Let's get back to it being about HONOR
and teaching; and less about "rules and regulations, that if not strictly
followed results in punishment."
The basic admission requirements for BYU will get you a good scholarship at most
every other in-state school. So why would anyone choose to go there and then be
unhappy with what they signed up for? Wouldn't it make sense to go
somewhere else if you don't like the honor code? Virtually anywhere else
you choose, this will not be a problem and they will pay you to attend if you
have the ability to get into BYU. There are tons of kids who would
love to attend BYU and would love to live by the honor code, but did not make
the grade. Many are devastated not to go there. If you don't like the Honor
Code, find a school that better fits your lifestyle. You will be happier and
you'll make one of those kids who takes your place very happy. In fact you
will make their dream come true!
Nothing difficult to understand. How do students make it through college if they
find such easy things non understandable?
"Each student has a bishop - the bishop is called and set apart to assess
matters of worthiness. The HC office is not."Amen. This is
really what it comes down to. I see no rational connection between your very
personal private personal worthiness and college. The whole concept is icky.
This will not help BYU football. It just means that a player accused of DUI is
presumed innocent right up until the police report comes out.
Just get rid of the Honor Code. It's a relic of 1960's McCarthyist
fear of Communists and hippies. Each student has a bishop - the bishop is called
and set apart to assess matters of worthiness. The HC office is not.Despite what the pearl-clutching purists think, getting rid of the Honor Code
would not see BYU-P descend into a cesspool of sin. Honestly, I doubt much of
anything would change, except that everyone would stop being so nervous about
being ratted out.
I get the changes to the reporting and what not, they are good changes.But come on, get rid of the clean shaven, and no beard, mustache rules. Just
modify it just as you have with the hair. Let it read that Beards and mustaches
should be clean and neat, avoiding extreme styles or colors, edged and neatly
trimmed. Nobody should be required to get a beard card, or
"ticketed" for stubble. The church is making changes, why can't
still not enough.
I think this is a good move. It will help the students and the student
athletes. I really like Coach Sitake and I think the new Honor Code
changes will ultimately help out the football program.