Vatican rejects gender change to alarm of LGBT Catholics

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  • Orson Woods Cross, UT
    June 17, 2019 8:31 p.m.

    You are promoting the common atheist propaganda that religious people and organizations/church's should have no public voice. This is a fallacy that opposes the Constitution, where religious freedom is the first named freedom, and it says nothing about freedom of speech and freedom of the press being restricted to atheists and being withheld from people of faith. Your interpretation of the constitution grows as atheism grows, but is still not prevalent and has never been the accepted view of the courts and the majority of citizens in the US.

    You have no justification at all for your assertion, beyond it being your opinion. The fact that religions have long held influence in public policy, including legislation, has kept the US from crumbling into chaos long ago.

    And no, Helaman was not talking about this new invented "bigotry" against same-sex attracted people. The only mention of such things in the BofM is called "whoredoms," which is an apt description of all kinds of immorality, including homosexual. Rather, he referred to wicked men using their influence in Nephite government to install kings (dictators) instead of democratically chosen judges, as he was.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    June 17, 2019 5:19 p.m.


    Religious organizations can do whatever they want - that doesn't make it right.

    As for participation in the public square; no, religious organizations have no business interfering in the lives of non-adherents. Period.


    Perhaps Helaman referred to the evil of discrimination and bigotry; did you ever think of that?

  • Orson Woods Cross, UT
    June 17, 2019 9:37 a.m.

    You need to reread the news story you are commenting on; it is about doctrine/policy within the Catholic church and has nothing to do with "our civil legal system."

    However, having recognized that your point is moot because it is misdirected, you should understand that religious freedom entitles religious people and religious organizations to participate in the pubic square.

    Further, that our current US legal system (the Constitution) was founded by Christians on Christian religious beliefs of right and wrong/good and evil. This is why it has been so hard and time-consuming for atheist groups to have laws changed in the court system--because until the last few decades, most people were commandment-keeping Christians (like your ancestors) and they saw the courts in that light.

    Who knows what affect the atheist/agnostic influence will have on US laws and judicial system over the next 50-100 years. Helaman 5:2 says: "For as their laws and their governments were established by the voice of the people, and they who chose evil were more numerous than they who chose good, therefore they were ripening for destruction, for the laws had become corrupted." That's prophecy.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    June 17, 2019 6:11 a.m.


    "Lets be honest so we can help those who need help."

    -- Yes, lets. Please start.


    There are MORE LGBT people in America than there are Mormons in the entire world; shall we deny that "infinitesimal minority" their rights too?


    Scripture has no place in our civil legal system.


    Forcing others to adhere to your beliefs does harm them; your god is fictional, nobody should be forced to follow it.

  • Orson Woods Cross, UT
    June 16, 2019 3:47 a.m.

    Let's hope you are right.

  • SethStewart Provo, UT
    June 14, 2019 3:56 p.m.

    Orson - I wholeheartedly believe that there are some who will never capitulate. As they draw increasingly toward light and truth, they will be empowered to reject falsehoods and to endure and act valiantly. The contest from the first is not between man and his fellow man, but between children of God and deadly deception that would ensnare and poison them and ruin their progress. All who care enough to win this fight will ultimately be equipped to win it. Thank God for a prophet!

  • SethStewart Provo, UT
    June 14, 2019 1:13 p.m.

    Loving God and being loyal to Him does not in any way, shape or form make a person "bigoted", "harassing", or "promoting violence". That is Satan's lie, introduced to drive a wedge between good people. Toward people who experience gender confusion or same-sex attraction, Christians and good people of all faiths are their greatest allies. Pressures and doctrines that promote the view of LGBT status as a person's innermost identity are their greatest enemies: They create all-consuming pride, confusion and animosity towards light and truth itself. Some people do experience confusion and low self-esteem regarding their own priceless gift of gender. Some suffer the devastating effects of same-sex attraction. No Christian contradicts the reality of these experiences or feelings. However, they are not a person's identity. Regardless of the origin of that pressure, whether physiological, spiritual, or social, it can be healed through the power of Jesus Christ. He conquered death. The only thing that can stay His hand from blessing and healing us is untruth resulting in our own pride and obstinacy, which is the very thing Satan has planted between us to create that rift and prevent healing.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    June 14, 2019 7:04 a.m.

    Transitioning is very dangerous. Just type in"He used to be trans", on You Tube. The truth is starting to come light.

  • Frozen Fractals Paducah, KY
    June 12, 2019 12:58 p.m.

    Sex is determined by chromosomes. Gender is more identity driven.

    As for orientation being fluid, bisexuality is a thing and if you're in between the two ends of the spectrum then what you are can appear more fluid than it is. One could be a bisexual guy who is now dating a girl after previously being in a relationship with a guy.

  • Hugh1 , 00
    June 12, 2019 5:42 a.m.

    I am gay, I was baptized Catholic, and here we go again. These are decisions that hurt LGBT people, especially transgender folks. Sexual orientation is an immutable characteristic that is not subject to choice or change- and it is certainly not subject to any Church's pronouncements. The Church should stand up for LGBT people, especially transgender folks, not opening the front door to discrimination. Following in the footsteps of Christ would go a long way toward aligning the Church's position with our human existance. This ship has sailed.

  • Chessermesser West Valley City, UT
    June 12, 2019 4:51 a.m.

    If you are a boy you are made of - frogs and snails and puppy-dog tails. If you gotta ‘em, you’re a boy, no question.

  • Orson Woods Cross, UT
    June 11, 2019 7:22 a.m.

    I am pleased the Catholics have stood firm on this issue, for scripture is very plain and they would have been wrong to determine otherwise. However, I believe the day will come, years from now, that they will capitulate and join the growing trend among world religions to toss the word of God out in favor of the philosophies of men on the social issues.

    I think it worth noting that the same LGBT activists that harass and oppose The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are doing likewise to the Catholics. They know negative publicity can often pressure an organization to capitulate to their demands.

    This is how misled activists and protesters overcome the plain teachings of scripture and deplete what inspiration and truth is left in the various churches and religions around the world. The Great Apostasy it still in powerful effect across the earth and the light of Christ is diminished. For now, I applaud the Catholics and support their internal decision as good and sound, and I hope they can remain strong on the issue as long as possible.

  • RiDal Sandy, UT
    June 10, 2019 6:27 p.m.

    There is a spectrum of everything and everyone deserves their rights...

    But that is just another reason to stop trying to force other people to participate in the delusions of an infinitesimal minority. Normal people have the right to recognize scientific, factual, biological reality without being called bigots.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    June 10, 2019 1:55 p.m.

    I respect the Vatican/Pope's common sense approach here.

    Some want to claim gender (which is determined by chromosones) is fluid, while orientation (which we don't know exact causes) is fixed at birth? I'm just not buying it. I think gender is likely to be fixed. While my experience is that orientation is fluid with too many people claiming it is fixed due to current political pressures.

    Furthermore, it is time to stop dragging out self harm among sexual minorities as a reason to do anything. Nobody can point to any laws or public policies that actually result in reduced self harm among sexual minorities. Ditto any metric of social acceptance of sexual minority intimate behavior. Sexual minorities living in Boston or even Canada--where ministers are arrested simply for saying that certain conduct is sinful--have the same higher risk of self harm than heteronormative folks as do their counterparts living in Utah or the Bible Belt.

    We are not helping people in need by asserting despite all evidence that self harm is due to outside forces. Self harm in all its forms among sexual minorities seems to be internally drivent.

    Lets be honest so we can help those who need help.