As a concealed permit holder, I am very aware of my responsibility to both
protect and preserve lives. I have considered various situations, asking myself
what I would do. There is no easy answer. In anything but the worst of threats,
I would probably not use my gun. Between the guilt of having killed or maimed
another person and the legal consequences that may arise from such an act, I
know my life would never be the same. That said, it is my belief that there is
usually an alternative to firing a gun, and only the best, instant consideration
of the circumstances can prevent loss of life. In the end, I have no way to make
an assessment of whether or not the shooter, in this particular case, did the
The man who shot Sorensen did the right thing. Proud of this guy for potentially
saving this young woman. He had every right to shoot Sorensen, and the young
woman who was assaulted is very lucky to be alive and out of the hands of her
attacker. Well done.
fani - wj, UTJune 4, 2019 12:54 p.m.@ ConservativeCommonTater"Poem I shot a bullet into the air, it came down, I know not
where...""Are you serious? I don't know how much you
know about science but a falling object in order cause harm has a lot to do with
it's weight. A bullet weighs about half an ounce you will get hurt more
from a falling half inch hail than from a falling bullet."Quite
simply, you're wrong.I was slightly off on my quote:The Arrow and the Song By Henry Wadsworth Longfellow I
shot an arrow into the air, It fell to earth, I knew not where; For,
so swiftly it flew, the sight Could not follow it in its flight. I breathed a song into the air, It fell to earth, I knew not where; For who has sight so keen and strong, That it can follow the flight of
song? Long, long afterward, in an oak I found the arrow, still
unbroke; And the song, from beginning to end, I found again in the
heart of a friend.
The lady was getting pounded. The shooter saw the vicious assault, stepped out
of his car, warned the man to stop hitting her, and then shot when the man
refused to comply. He’s a hero. He did everything right.
In addition to basic gun safety, some people here need to review the law as
well.UCA 76-2-402(2)(b) states "An individual is justified in
using force intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if
the individual reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent death or
serious bodily injury to the individual or another individual as a result of
imminent use of unlawful force, or to prevent the commission of a forcible
felony."UCA 76-2-402(1)(a) and (b) define "forcible
felony" as "aggravated assault" or "...any other felony offense
that involves the use of force or violence against an individual that poses a
substantial danger of death or serious bodily injury."There are
numerous factors which come into play here; the imminence of the threat of
bodily injury to the woman, how severely she was injured, how badly she was
being beaten, and how reasonable was the shooter's belief that she was in
danger of death or severe bodily injury. However, given the facts as
outlined by the news and assuming the prosecutor follows the law, I do not see
any charges being filed.
Two shots, two hits. Well done. Woman had a concussion. That's just a few
pounds of force away from a life-threatening injury. Good assessment of the
conditions, again well done. Were it my daughter, I'd not have wanted him
to call the police and wait while she continued to get pounded - she could have
been in a coma or worse by the time they showed up. Remember, when seconds
count, the police are only minutes away.
Any way you look at it, your going to have to live with it, the regrets, if by
doing nothing or doing something.
procuradorfiscal brings up a good point. Where are the headlines
and stories about the lives saved because of gun "violence" or the
threat of gun "violence"? I doubt those statistics are looked at (maybe
not even available) because they don't support the narrative that guns are
I'm always amazed at how many people think all the facts of the situation
need to be presented to them so that they can make a decision on the case. Why?
It's not your job. Seriously, do you think that someone like you, one
with no law experience, can make the right decision based on what is presented
in the media? As the article said, detectives are still holding interviews and
the County Attorney will decide if there is any reason to press charges. Give
it a break with all you "armchair" prosecuting.
Bottom line, someone is dead that maybe shouldn't be. No matter what
happens to the shooter, he's either going to wonder about his decision and
if he could have or should have done it differently. Is being judge and jury in
the heat of the moment with a gun really the way we want justice to be applied
on our state?
"Since the weight of the of the bullet is so small any damage by a falling
bullet is very negligible." — faniBullets fired into the
air have caused fatal injuries.In 1985 and 1992, a study of 118
people struck by falling bullets was conducted by physicians at Martin Luther/
Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles. It came to the following conclusions.A falling bullet has a far higher chance of causing death than one from
a regular shooting. Regular shootings result in deaths 2% to 6% of the time.
However, for those unlucky enough to get hit by a falling bullet, the death rate
was close to one third. The reason it's higher is that they were more
likely to get hit in the head. And though the bullets were traveling much
slower, they were still capable of smashing skulls, especially if they were from
a larger caliber weapon.Admittedly, however, even a gunshot into the
ground can have consequences by ricocheting off a rock and striking an
unintended target. That's a grave responsibility gun owners need to
consider well in advance of ever pulling out their gun.
RE: NoNamesAccepted1. How do you know what other people with guns
think or fantasize about? Training is not required for a license. Only police
officers or possibly military personnel have a level of training to shoot
accurately in a high stress situation.2. There are more options then
shooting or standing back doing nothing. I would put them in a arm-head throw
and hold them on the ground until the police arrive, of course you do run the
risk of being attacked by the woman.3. Calling the police and telling
them to stop from a distance is a reasonable thing to do. What is a problem is
when people will not do anything to help.4. I do not remember the Good
Samaritan story including a shooting by the Good Samaritan.5. It’s
not just people with guns who help other people.
Re: No Names Accepted2AP can be just as easily flipped from "2nd
amendment paranoid" to 2nd amendment proponent" either way the results
remain the same. You make valid points that are instructive. We live in a
society where it is important that each persons rights are valued. I know that I
grow weary of reading about gun deaths and even wearier when the rhetoric starts
flying back and forth between the pro-gun and anti-gun factions. It would be
nice to see an honest and meaningful dialogue that changed the status quo for
the betterment where both sides became one..
Every man with a gun thinks he is Wyatt Earp and this is the Old West. You
aren't and it ain't.
@fani - wj:Please do some research before handling another firearm.
A bullet fired vertically into the air will reach a terminal velocity of some 90
meters per second (~300 fps) as it returns to earth. Bullets traveling at 60
meters per second (~200 fps) can be fatal to humans. It is impossible to predict
where a bullet fired into the air will come down.A few ancedotes to
back up the data:•On average, 2 people are killed and 25 more
injured each year in Puerto Rico from falling bullets following
"celebratory" gun fire such as at new years.•Between
1985 and 1992, the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, treated
118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. Thirty-eight of them died.•4 people were killed and 17 wounded by falling bullets in Baghdad,
following the victory of the national football team in the AFC Asian Cup.•Firing a bullet into the air is a felony in five States. In many
others, a "warning shot" can be viewed as evidence no shot was yet
needed.We do not shoot to warn, nor to kill. We shoot to stop an
immediate, imminent, credible threat to innocent life and limb. Death or severe
injury are unfortunate side effects of ending the threat.
1-Nobody "fantasizes" about having to use a firearm in lawful defense of
innocent life or limb. People train for and then hope to never have to use their
firearm. The data backs this us as we see only 2 permits out of every 1,000
issued, get revoked for cause. And that includes non-weapons-realated issues
like DUI or shoplifting.2-If the victim--the woman being assaulted
by a man--were your wife, sister, or daughter, how long do you want the passerby
to wait before ending the attack? Do you want him to stand and take video for 5
minutes while he calls 911 and waits of the police to arrive? How many punches
do you want your loved one to absorb?3-Yet again we see the 2AP (2nd
amd paranoid) folks putting gun owners in the "danged if they do, darned if
they don't" position. When a gun owner doesn't act to protect
others we are chastised for not helping. When a gun owner does act, he is
accused of being a reckless Rambo.4-The good Samaritan is
cooperating with police and has not been arrested. The victim required treatment
at the hospital. And the deceased assailant has--surprise, surprise--a prior
violent criminal record. I'll await details; Today benefit of doubt for gun
"A warning shot into the ground."The damages caused by a
bullet has a lot to do with the bullet speed as the gun is fired. It is too
dangerous to fire into the ground because of the rate of speed the bullet
travel. It is much safer to fire into the sky where the atmosphere will absorb
the speed of the bullet. Since the weight of the of the bullet is so small any
damage by a falling bullet is very negligible.
@bachelorsTechnically, assault doesn't even require contact. Just
apprehension.The passerby was so in tune with the woman's
feelings that he instinctively knew she felt her space violated. You're all
about feelings, right?I guess we weren't there. I'm
thinking there was some battery involved since the woman went to the hospital.
The victim was asked to stop, so it must have been something substantial.I'm persuaded that the problem for some people is the weapon of
choice. Substitute rock or tire iron or even knife for the bullet used, and more
people would call him a hero. The illness is 2AP, or 2nd Amendment Phobia.
@ ConservativeCommonTater"Poem I shot a bullet into the air, it
came down, I know not where..."Are you serious? I don't
know how much you know about science but a falling object in order cause harm
has a lot to do with it's weight. A bullet weighs about half an ounce you
will get hurt more from a falling half inch hail than from a falling bullet.
Whether or not the shot was legally justified will be decided by the
investigation. As stated in the article, " you can only use deadly force
against deadly force" in Utah. Regardless of the legal outcome, I agree that
there are usually better ways to break up fights than irrevocably taking a life
unless the person is using a deadly weapon.@t702 - You should never
fire "a warning shot to the sky." What goes up also comes down. You
could kill a child playing in her back yard, or an old man out for a walk
several streets over. In that part of Provo, more likely someone going about
their business in any of the nearby apartment complexes or homes, someone
driving down University Avenue, or a student on BYU campus (only 3 blocks away).
For the rest of his life, this guy will have to live with the fact that he
killed another human. Even in military service and police service this fact
haunts people. Those promoting concealed carry often fantasize about these sorts
of encounters, but in stark reality they are nothing but haunting. This man will have to go through a trial to determine if his choice to use
deadly force was justifiable. That will haunt him too. Something for
each person to think about before going down the conceal carry/open carry path.
Normal people can't easily move on from taking another human's life.
This case should prove interesting as to what you can and can not do to stop
violence. Justified or not? I think we need more of
this story to make a judgement. Thinking you almost had to be there. I think I
will refrain from any judgement until we get all the facts. Something had to be
done but I guess the question is did he do what he should have? Not like he had
tons of time to think it out. So if the women being attached was
his wife or daughter would that make a difference in this situation and or
decision? Things to think about
@ Say No to Bo“If you ask me, the guy deserves a medal for stopping
the assault.”Slapping someone across the face is considered
assault. Do people deserve to get shot for slapping someone?
The Utah County Attorneys Office should press charges in order to be fair. This is a slippery slope. We can’t let people with guns just
drive around and shoot whoever looks like the bad guy.
In response to t702-Las Vegas, NV. Someone who has refused your command to stop,
after you have told them you would shoot, is not going to be deterred by a
warning shot.When that person is less than 30 feet from you, charging at
you, you would be lucky to get off a shot before he got to you much less have
the luxury of having the target stay still so you could shoot only an arm or a
leg. Double tap to center mass is the safest response in this situation.
I agree with Canneryrow. Let's have our laws amended in such a way that
they clearly spell out the responsibilities of gun ownership — especially
when it comes to using deadly force.Here is what I recommend for a
law. 1. A verbal warning that you are armed.2. A warning shot
into the ground.3. Shooting as a last resort.The exception to
this law would be that you shot first because you truly believed that yourself,
or someone else, was in imminent danger of death. Though that can be broadly
interpreted, I trust juries and prosecutors to make those decisions.In a civilized society, taking someone's life — even a
criminal's — should always be regarded as the last step. I think this
is a compromise most of us can support.
Re: ". . . guns continue to be involved in the taking of human life."Yeah, and the saving of human life, as well. The anti-gun
gang will never admit it, of course -- except by their actions of hiding behind
armed guards and police -- but guns are more often involved in the saving of
lives, than in the taking of them.We clearly don't have enough
facts to make a final judgment in this case, but the fact that police did not
make an arrest suggests this was the use of a gun to save life, rather than the
situation the gun-ban crowd clearly is hoping for, so they can use this incident
to further their gun-ban sophistry.
t702 - Las Vegas, NVJune 4, 2019 10:18 a.m."What happen to
firing a warning shot to the sky or shoot the arm or leg? He went straight to a
kill shot, hope he has good justifications for such deadly action"you're kidding, right? Maybe he could have just "winged him"
like in the old movies? Get back to those Hoppalong Cassidy movies.Poem" I shot a bullet into the air, it came down, I know not where..."
The guy that shot the assailant is not a "gunman". The D-News makes it
sound like he was the aggressor, which isn't the case. C'mon D-News,
revise your story.
Here we go. He coulda-woulda-shoulda.The "Guns are icky,"
crowd will launch their narrative. But they'll have to be careful or it
might sound like they actually support the cops.We'll see how
"busy" the Utah County Prosecutor is now.If you ask me, the
guy deserves a medal for stopping the assault.
Each day we wake up to the news that someone has shot someone else. There is too
little reported here to form an opinion on this incident but the fact remains
that guns continue to be involved in the taking of human life. The Virginia
Beach shooting barely made the front page. What we are doing or not doing here
in Utah and in the USA is simply just making us numb to the headlines. The
pro-gun lobby parades out their response; the anti-gun lobby parades out their
response; tomorrow we will wake up, hopefully, again and read of another gun
related death(s).Japan has a pretty good model. Why not have Utah
follow up their .05 dui legislation with a gun bill that adds responsibility to
the sacred right of owning a gun.
What happen to firing a warning shot to the sky or shoot the arm or leg? He went
straight to a kill shot, hope he has good justifications for such deadly action
Why would you not just call the cops? Maybe he did? Not sure what was going on
so bad that he had to shoot the dude? This story is missing a lot of info.
I hope the gunman acted in good faith with the shooting otherwise he deserves
some jail time. For me good faith means he reasonably expected the woman or
himself to be in imminent threat of death or great bodily injury. Shooting
someone is a drastic measure to stop a dispute or fight.