@1aggie - Salt Lake City, UTMay 21, 2019 8:50 p.m.Okay girls,No birth control measure is 100% effective. Therefore, we ought not be engaged
in lovemaking for anything but creating new life, period, end of sentence. Let all women unite around celibacy!-----Sounds
good. AND require that when a couple, married or unmarried, want to have sex,
the woman has to specifically agree before anything happens. The decision
whether to risk pregnancy should be specifically, and only, hers.
Hundreds in Utah join protest, but millions don't. Of course there will be
some that will be supporting and some that won't. I don't understand
why there is news about so few. I'm not complaining, just curious.
I can hardly wait for SCOTUS to rule on these despicable state laws. (New York,
Virginia et al)
@not status quo: "The supreme court has ruled on this.. Roe Vs Wade. If you
don'tlike the law, change it. Don't just disobey it."That is the entire point. There is no "law" that says abortion must be
legal. There is just a 40 year old supreme court ruling that says government
can't restrict abortion except late in the pregnancy.So we
can't "change the law", we have to pass a law that challanges Roe
and then appeal it through the courts to see if the Supreme Court will allow a
law to be enforced, in effect overturning (parts of) Roe v Wade.
Are the "pro choice" protesters also in favor of fathers being able to
choose whether or not to pay child support?
"hundreds protest while hundreds of thousands are cheering the effort
to protect the unborn, who have no voice. (yet).
lost in DC - West Jordan, UT---Are not laws that allow
“unwanted” newborns to be dropped off at hospitals – no
questions asked – controls over those newborns’ bodies?--- The operative word is 'viability', and most laws that permit
abortion take that into account. When the fetus is viable, then there are other
considerations, which may result in an abortion, usually when the mother's
life is in danger. If the 'pro-life' crowd were truly consistent
they'd eliminate that option as well. But they aren't. The
oft quoted 'except in rape or incest'. Again the pro-life crowd shows
it hypocrisy in these exceptions. If 'personhood' begins at
conception, then it doesn't matter how the conception was achieved, loving
couple, brutal rape, or parents with their children or other relatives. Remember
Lot's daughters.As for the rest of the examples, most are on
the order of choices. The society may limit minors' access to alcohol,
cigarettes, etc. but limiting adults with prohibitions for these items have been
proven spectacularly unable to induce the desired result.People
chose to do things to their body. In so far as possible, they should have that
choice without legal restrictions.
Irony. Liberals protest limits on abortions and lead the way in having
abortions. So liberals have fewer children to raise and teach that a fetus is
just a bunch of meaningless cells. In the end, their point of view is a dead
end. Conservative women have more children who they teach the sanctity of
life, who marry and have more children. Liberalism and the abortion
industry...your days are numbered. Literally.
I am pro-choice too. That is everyone deserves the right to choose whether they
do things that could get them pregnant. If you don't want to get pregnant
or have a baby, then don't have sex. If you do want to get pregnant and
have a baby, then have sex. Everyone has a choice. But once you make your choice
and create a life, then you have made your choice, and you need to live with
your choice. You have brought a third person into your equation, and you need to
respect that life!! Your Choice, Your child!! If you don't want your child,
then please give it up to a couple who are praying for a child!! Allow that
child to experience their life!In addition, I 100% support the
"My Body, My Choice" argument. I am fine with woman making choices
regarding their own bodies. But a baby's body inside you IS NOT your own
body. It is another human being's body with its own brain and heart. As
human beings, we should be doing all we can to protect the bodies of the
innocent and unborn. I hold my little 4 yr old boy, and it just breaks my heart
that it is legal to kill beautiful children just like him still in the womb.
Disrespect for human life is heart breaking. Every child deserves to live!!
oldbasketball - Draper, UT---I see a lot of little girls in the
picture. I wonder who is bringing them to gatherings like this. I think they
should just enjoy their childhood without someone telling them how great it is
to have an abortion.---The children, girls in particular are
not being told how great an abortion may be, but that they have a choice.Pro-Life is not about the fetus, it is about eliminating choice for
women.If Pro-Life were truly sincere in their 'pro' life,
they would support social programs so that whatever economic factor that may be
part of a woman's choice, would be virtually eliminated.Such
things as Well Infant care, expanded, childcare, expanded to meet the needs of
working mothers, school lunches, expanded to meet the needs of all the children
attending.What do we here from conservatives, the advocates of
Pro-Life, "Tough luck, you got your self pregnant you take care of the child
on your own."And of course never any criticism for men lacking
in responsibility to take precautions in the first place. In fact there's a
constant whine about child support from men, and how taxing it is on them.The simplest answer is take preventative action.
I see a lot of little girls in the picture. I wonder who is bringing them to
gatherings like this. I think they should just enjoy their childhood without
someone telling them how great it is to have an abortion.
Funny thing here. Everyone supporting abortion were not aborted, so now they
have a voice. Those being aborted will never !
dmcveyThe comment about the signatory was in response to shamrock’s
complaint about men telling women what to do. I was merely letting shamrock know
it was a woman, not a man, "telling women what to do".Government should not be controlling people’s bodies? Really? Are not proscriptions against assault and murder to some degree controls on
people’s bodies?Are not laws that allow “unwanted”
newborns to be dropped off at hospitals – no questions asked –
controls over those newborns’ bodies?Are not mandatory
vaccination laws controls over people’s bodies?Are not minimum
age requirements to purchase and consume alcohol and tobacco controls over
people’s bodies?Are not seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws
controls over people’s bodies?we should do away with all those
controls over people's bodies?
There are some very good comments here. Too many to note, but those who are not
going to the standard conversations such as "this is my body and I can do
what I want, etc.) is refreshing. Yes, it is your body but it is on loan to
you and what you do with your body has consequences. I have two living children
and they are a blessing to me. One of my two is disabled and he has never been
convenient but at 36 he is a joy in my life as is my normal son. I had a
daughter who was profoundly disabled who lived to be 24. She had needs beyond
my capabilities but she was also a blessing in my life. I treasure my children
who lived (2 others miscarriaged). None of it has been convenient. At one time
I pursued a music career, but my children needed me. I have no regrets. How
could I ever have aborted any of them?
@ lost in DCThe sex of the person who signed this has nothing to do
with anything. The government should not be controlling people's bodies.
It's amazing that supposed "small government" conservatives want
the government controlling women's bodies.
ShamrockThe Alabama law was signed by – a WOMAN.If one
is not sexually responsible, are they worthy of trust?HelmsmanTheir personal decisions do not matter? You mean they have no choice whether
or not to have sex? What a horribly chauvinistic attitude!LillyWho besides you injected religion into this? But you are right, women should
not be forced to have sex, it should be consensual. And since she should have a
choice, does she bear no responsibility for preventing pregnancy should she not
want to get pregnant?And Utah allows exemptions your later comment
says are not there.EDMEveryone deserves health care? They
deserve access, but do not deserve to demand others pay for it.
@Ranch - it's ironic that those promoting abortion have already been born.
Simple fact fetuses do not survive outside the womb at 20 weeks, at 22 weeks,
and probably not at 24 weeks...despite heartbeats, brain activity, and wiggling
toes. Why because all those things have not been connected as a system yet, and
rely on the womb environment to accomplish that.So, until then
despite all your little fantasies it is a group of growing cells inside the
mother and not what we consider a "baby".To conservative
scientist, the argument is not that at viability the child can "survive on
it's own" outside the womb. It's the child (and yes it is now a
child) can survive outside the womb with appropriate normal human care. Get it
It's interesting that all those telling women to refrain from sex are
probably having sex themselves. Makes you wonder.
100s protest....meanwhile millions side with the babies. It IS your body so use
When abortion first became a "thing" many years ago, it seemed obvious
that it was being pushed by less-than-honorable men. At the time, the
predominant story line was men paying for black market abortions in order to
avoid the social and financial responsibilities of fathering a child out of
wedlock. And now it appears that these men have convinced women that they -
women - are the real beneficiaries of legalized abortion. But they're not.
There's a reason Norma McCorvey, the "Roe" in Roe v. Wade, changed
her mind about abortion.I almost think that what a lot of women are
protesting is the unequal burden they bear, by virtue of the biology of being a
woman, in the reproductive act. But that "burden", viewed in the proper
context, is in reality a marvelous blessing and privilege that no man can have.
We thankfully don't end the lives of those who are old, and
inconvenient.Or unwell or not correct or whole---in some of
innumerable ways. And thus inconvenient."...we should ever
revere the worth of human life, through each of its many stages." Russell M.
This somehow ended up in the feedback section...so I’ll try again...I saw this quote the other day but forget the author right now...“It’s interesting that everyone protesting for abortion has
already been born.”
The supreme court has ruled on this.. Roe Vs Wade. If you don't
like the law, change it. Don't just disobey it.
When I look at those faces, I can't help to think that they had
mother's who went through nine months thus allowing them to be born. Did
all of them grow up in perfect families? I doubt it, but they at least had the
chance to live, grow and learn. Don't we owe it to the unborn to give them
an opportunity to experience life, love and happiness? Shouldn't they be
allowed to fulfill the measure of their creation? I think so and I'm
positive God thinks so.
@ FullyPresentIf you are going to extrapolate all of those cost of
having a children then you will need to add in what that child will make over a
life time which will range between $2 to $4 million. I've always
maintained that a family with more children has a bigger safety net for both the
parents and siblings are there are more members of the family to ask for help.
This point doesn't even include all the priceless moments of
being part of a family. Nor does it take into account that those living below
the poverty line have many financial resources to turn to or if need be the
child can be given up for adoption.You don't have to be female
to protect another person's life and stand up for the defenseless.
@ matman“Every life is precious.”Thank you.
I think we all agree. But we should be asking, Why the fight to protect the
yet-to-be-born over those who are living? If every life is precious, every life
deserves health care. The far right generally stops caring once the fetus is
So, we have no understanding, much less compassion, for the women who will die
and leave their husbands and children motherless, because their pregnancy, in
one of eleven or more medical conditions that will kill them? When you
understand the fact that pregnancy is often a death sentence, for both mother
and child she is carrying, you have to understand the value of choice. Or do
you prefer to condemn these women to death, because it fits you assumptions
Women have been making their own decisions since the Garden of Eden. What
matters is if they make decisions based on the needs of others or their own
desires. Has the nation become a better place since abortion was legalized? Do
we have more compassionate citizens, more reverence for life, less crime and
suicide? I am certainly in need of making improvements myself, and I
hope I am trying. However, I am so glad that I do not have to remember having an
abortion (since I haven't). Instead I have interesting and beneficial
contact with the son who was an inconvenient pregnancy (not just inconvenient;
my health was not good for several months, my finances suffered, my education
was put on hold and I had no spouse to offer support). I adamantly state I do
not regret any of those aspects. I learned a lot! Though I was a WWII baby, I
can still climb to precarious places, ride a bike with grandchildren and be part
of a business operation. I don't believe my life was diminished by those
unwanted nine months; possibly it is much richer. This probably sounds boastful,
for which I apologize, but I am pro-life, and do not apologize for that.
No one has the right to impose their religious personal beliefs on others.
Women being told what to do in every facet of their lives is tyranny.
@Helmsman “This law tells women their personal decisions do not
matter.” On the contrary. Their personal decisions are
paramount because the decision to end a human life matters a great deal. Or
their decision to put a child up for adoption matters Immeasurable to a couple
waiting for a baby who can’t have one of their own. The their decision to
engage in sex without taking steps to prevent pregnancy is monumental. Their
decisions matter immensely, and it’s foolish and irresponsible to think or
say otherwise. @Sneaky Jimmy “no male should be allowed to
make a law to control and possibly remove legal rights from a female...”.
How many female children lost their life to the abortion law put in place by
males? It’s sad the only people who support abortion are the
ones who were born.
I think all this talk about penalties for miscarriages is a red herring to try
to get more people to turn "pro-choice." I can't see why anyone in
Utah needs to waste time getting involved in protests when Utah laws regarding
abortion are reasonable (perhaps making abortions too easy to have). I also think that women who protest that they are not incubators or protesting
that they should have control over their own bodies are forgetting that women
are given the incredible privilege of giving birth. It is an incredible
opportunity, and if it is unwanted, don't participate in sex. The Utah law
does make exception for rape. It is also wrong to lead young women to believe
that they should be able to have abortions just because they "own their
bodies." This is a moral issue that has become distorted into selfishness
The thought I had looking at the faces in that crowd was, they all have a
Okay girls,No birth control measure is 100% effective. Therefore, we ought
not be engaged in lovemaking for anything but creating new life, period, end of
sentence. Let all women unite around celibacy!
According to a 2017 report from the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average
cost of raising a child from birth through age 17 is $233,610.Urban
South: $232,050Urban Northeast: $264,090Urban
Midwest: $227,400Urban West: $245,460The average
cost to have a baby in the US, without complications during delivery, is
$10,808— which can increase to $30,000 when factoring in care provided
before and after pregnancy. When considering the fact that in the US, 2,684,803
mothers had a vaginal birth and 1,258,581 mothers had a c-section in 2016,
according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, that's a lot
of money going into the healthcare system just from maternity costs. Cost of having a baby: (Utah)Vaginal birth with insurance: $5,454.84Vaginal birth without insurance: $9,919.41C-section with insurance:
$8,132.89C-section without insurance: $13,887.42It is more
expensive to delivery a baby in the U.S. than in any other country. So, we are going to legally force women to pay this who have been raped, are
victims of incest, have medical issues, or had failures of birth control and
can't pay all this? And, the dad's just walk free?
Too many people get abortions with little thought to what they are doing and
with no regard for the child they are carrying. The other extreme is not
allowing any woman to have one for medical reasons or even in cases of rape or
incest. We have to find some middle ground with regard to everyone's
rights. There is no birth control which is 100% effective other than no sex at
all which is not reasonable or realistic for the high majority of the public.
Until then, this is a significant factor. It also comes down to how
deep into people's sexual lives, their bedrooms, their bodies, and personal
decisions do we want to let the gov't go? In deciding this the ear muffs
need to go on when it comes to listening to the extreme left and the extreme
right. The extremists are dangerous to sound reasoning, policies and laws, and
democracy as a whole.
Hmmm, after reading other's comments, chastity and abstinence for women and
men seems to have a certain amount of logic. Less complicated too. As for
married couples, are there really any unwanted pregnancies? And unplanned is
not the same as unwanted. I couldn't imagine anything more illogical.
This law tells women their personal decisions do not matter. It tells them their
futures do not matter, what government says goes. States have rights to
regulate abortion at the point of viability, which is 24 weeks into a
pregnancy.Six weeks, the “heartbeat” threshold, is a
pre-viability point. At that point, no embryo is capable of surviving outside
of the womb.This is all nonsense to allow government to control
@jeclar2006: "Then there's good news. apron 98% of all abortions stats
recorded by the CDC occur within 20 weeks."So why is anyong
protesting? Utah's law allows for exceptions in the case of the life of
the mother or the death of the baby. (Come on, try calling it a baby rather than
a fetus. Does it change your view of the situation? At 20+ weeks, it is a
baby.)"Is that too much to ask of men?"Of course
not. The law recognizes this. Women get to decide whether to carry or terminate,
and if to carry, whether to adopt or keep. Men get child support based entirely
on the woman's decision.Is it too much to ask of women to use
reliable birth control, and then maybe a condom as well to avoid spreading STDs?
Would not that eliminate 95% of all abortions?@shamrock: "...
important principles for male conservatives, but ..."Kind of
like liberals love personal liberties and control of one's body for
abortion, but not for owning a gun, nor declining unwanted vaccinations.Pointing out the inconsistencies on each side's talking points vs
details doesn't really advance the debate. Hypotheticals about men getting
pregnant are no more useful than about Hitler not being born.
Autonomy and small government are important principles for male conservatives,
but they don't trust the female of the species to control their own lives.
Just imagine if men could get pregnant, and we had laws requiring them to endure
all the hardships of pregnancy for nine months and go through the agony of
childbirth, regardless of circumstance, there'd be an outcry of the likes
we've never heard before.
Let’s fight for our right to take something so wonderful and beautiful and
make it so utterly horrendous that we can justify taking away life from the most
RiDal - Sandy, UT---At the core of every moral question is probably
a legitimate gray area; but certainly abortion after 18 weeks, when a human
heartbeat can typically be detected and within two weeks of when preemies are
already known to be able to survive independently, becomes almost impossible to
justify, except in an extreme case of protecting the life of the mother.---Then there's good news. apron 98% of all abortions stats
recorded by the CDC occur within 20 weeks. The remaining approx 2% are
distributed over the remanning pregnancy period, and usually in the latest
stages are due to such events as death of the fetus, or other sever
complications.If you want to quibble over 18 vs 20 weeks, well, that
is all it is, since over 90% of all abortsion are with in 13 weeks.The argument style of "what if your mother... ?" is a ridiculous style
since we can also ask the rhetorical question of 'Had Hitler's mother
spontaneously miscarried, would the world have been a better place?"And of course if men don't what to become fathers, or faced with a
pregnancy where a woman may consider abortion, they can learn a bit of
restraint.Is that too much to ask of men?
At this point, rather than railing against Utah's very liberal law allowing
elective abortions up to 18 weeks, would it not be a far better use of these
people's time to provide education to women on how to avoid unwanted
pregnanies in the first place, or at least how to detect an unwanted pregnancy
so as to avoid an elective abortion--or at least be able to obtain before the
4th month of pregnancy expirs?Not having sex is pretty much
guaranteed to avoid pregnancy.If one is going to be sexually active
when pregnancy would be so personally devestating as to justify terminating a
new, developing human life, one ought to be responsible enough to consistently
and properly use one of the several, highly effective methods of birth
control.Avoidance of STDs pretty much requires use of a condom on
top of that.How many pregnancies occur when one is using both
"belt and suspenders" as it were?It is no longer 1950. There
is no reason for any woman to have an unwanted pregnancy, even if she is
sexually active. Nor is there any reason for STDs to be on the rise.Is it really too much to ask that those mature enough to be sexually active
also be mature enough to use birth control?
Every life is precious. They deserve to live.
19th century Slave holder- I have the right to decide who what do with my own
property. 20th century National socialist- We have the right to decide the
final solution for the undesirables (Social property).20th century
Communist-We get to decide what life (property)is of benefit to society.Pro choice- It's my body (property) I get to decide what to do with it
despite I did choose when I had sex.Funny how the argument always
ends with someone else losing their right to life to pay for someone else's
narcissistic greed, selfishness, irresponsibility, & totalitarian mental
complex.Such people hate the idea of a God telling them what's
right and wrong but are more than willing to act like a God on earth decreeing
who lives and who dies.
The great unknown is at what point does a human being accrue the rights of
life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness and at what point does a woman lose
those rights, subordinating them to another. A couple of things seem clear, no
male should be allowed to make a law to control and possibly remove legal rights
from a female and no female should let others make decisions that will
permanently affect her life. Congratulations to the brave women of Utah who
won't allow others to make decisions for them.
Well spoken above!If I were a woman. And had an abortion, for my
own mere convenience alone, I would only have done so when I was young and
selfish. And, in later years, I would be upset with my previous error.
(especially, when so many want to adopt and can't easily do so)
Another commentator recently noted (on another article related to abortion) that
the pro-abortion arguments remind them a lot of pro-slavery arguments and NAZI
arguments in favor eliminating undesirables. This is very true. A fetus is a
living human being inside a mother (not a clump of cells) and it has a right to
life. If someone makes the argument that a fetus can't
sustain itself, and is thus abortion is defensible, then infanticide should not
be a crime, nor going through the dementia wards and nursing homes and killing
vulnerable elderly, or randomly killing patients admitted to a hospital, all of
whom are dependent on others to keep them alive.
At the core of every moral question is probably a legitimate gray area; but
certainly abortion after 18 weeks, when a human heartbeat can typically be
detected and within two weeks of when preemies are already known to be able to
survive independently, becomes almost impossible to justify, except in an
extreme case of protecting the life of the mother.