Surging socialism interest due to unfamiliarity with free market successes, Utah Gov. Gary Herbert says

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  • quackquack Park City, UT
    May 22, 2019 8:13 a.m.

    I love how people criticize Socialism yet don't even know how it plays a role in modern day society.

    Definition of socialism : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

    Public Education, Social Security, Medicare\Medicaid, Infrastructure, Military spending and most would also exclude spending for roads, police and fire protection, yet these all collectively things we pay for and are distributed by the government .

    The hypocrisy Herbert has his own socialistic policies

    Ken Ivory- 'The longtime lands-transfer advocate said public lands, of which Utah is mostly comprised, are a form of socialism."

  • RiDal Sandy, UT
    May 21, 2019 9:33 a.m.

    @VisiGuest: "Ask any vocal critic of socialism to define socialism?The answers will largely be examples of dictatorial systems."
    Socialism has an easily searchable English-language definition. Even the socialist theorists admitted that it was inherently dictatorial. Free people never voluntarily relinquish property rights, so the socialists admitted there would be a "reluctantly necessary period of dictatorial rule". This is easily googlable.

    "The real question is one of valuation.....Commensurate with the value added
    ....When you let the "free market" decide, ... which may or may not be documented"

    You have hit on the fundamental question: "Who decides?"
    Observable fact is that every individual tends to overvalue their own labor and overestimate what they 'rightfully deserve'. In a free market, the fact that the transaction was performed freely is the ultimate evidence that both parties believed they were getting "the best deal available", providing the best value for both.
    Otherwise, they simply wouldn't conclude the transaction!
    The needs for "transparent" and "oversight" are silly and irrelevant (if the transaction is "legal". All systems are bound by laws.)

  • RiDal Sandy, UT
    May 21, 2019 7:27 a.m.

    @UtahEngineer: "Here's hoping for a Fiorina-Rice Republican ticket in 2024!"

    I would vote for that, but it is going to be: Haley / (Fiorina or Rice)

  • UtahEngineer Sandy, UT
    May 21, 2019 5:42 a.m.

    The young comic-reality neo-socialists must be reminded that under socialism, American and other free enterprise innovators would not have produced...

    Continent and world spanning fiber optic networks,
    Cell phones and a nearly infinite web of cellular radio communications,
    Smart phones and nearly infinite information access,
    Smart tools and products
    Laptops, Tablets,
    GPS and positional precision unavailable heretofore.
    Super clean, nearly emission free cars with many new safety features,
    Other transportation PARADIGM SHIFTS; self driving cars, truck, buses,
    Many high tech medical tools & products.
    Nearly all the high tech products at the massive Consumer Electronic Products Shows over the last 30 years,
    Many millions of great jobs,
    Trillions of dollars of gains in America's GNP
    Infinite improvement in personal opportunities via tech paradigm shift
    & ETC

  • UtahEngineer Sandy, UT
    May 21, 2019 3:11 a.m.

    Here's hoping for a Fiorina-Rice Republican ticket in 2024!

  • logicinUT South Jordan, UT
    May 20, 2019 6:00 p.m.

    Gary shouldn't run for reelection.

  • Cougar_Trojan_Spurs_Fan San Diego, CA
    May 20, 2019 11:49 a.m.

    I'm so sick of hearing the lame excuses for wanting socialism being that (fill in the blank here) isn't fair. Who ever said life was fair???

    If we as people are teaching our kids that life is fair and that they should demand to be treated the same as the next person, we are doing them a serious disservice!!!

    The only place that equality stands firm, especially in this country, is equality of opportunity. If you are in a crappy job, the choice to stay there is on *you*. No one can force you to stay in a job you hate. The beauty of the free market is, if you feel that you're not being valued as an employee, you have every right to seek employment elsewhere. Your paycheck is the result of a mutual transaction. If you're not happy with that agreement, negotiate a better agreement with your current employer, or find a new one!! That's the beauty of capitalism!

    God bless America!!!

  • VisiGuest Mancos, CO
    May 20, 2019 10:58 a.m.

    Ask any vocal critic of socialism to define socialism?
    The answers will largely be examples of dictatorial systems
    The real question is one of valuation
    Should profits be?
    Whatever the market will bear
    Commensurate with the value added

    When you let the "free market" decide, every transaction has it's own set of rules, which may or may not be documented

    Laws & rules are reactions to bad behavior
    The collective action of governance expends a vast majority of it's resources trying to contain 5% of the population for who don't feel bound by the only meaningful moral tenet
    Treat others as you would be treated
    Thinking that others are less human than they are...

    Whatever the system is named make sure there is
    Due Process
    Effective Oversight

  • RiDal Sandy, UT
    May 20, 2019 7:16 a.m.

    Why does anyone even talk about socialism seriously anymore?
    The 20th Century saw the implementation of every conceivable type of socialism, implemented directly by Marxist and Leninist theorists:
    National Socialism in Germany and Italy
    Maoist socialism in China
    Stalinist Russia and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
    North Korea
    Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge (Red Khmers)
    Cuba's Socialist Revolucion
    Venezuelan Socialism

    The result was over 100 million people murdered *by their own governments*, famine, poverty, and abject economic failure.

    But that wasn't "true socialism"...right ?
    And now "Democratic Socialism" is going to get it right ?
    They all claimed to be Democratic.

  • Farmington Fan Farmington, UT
    May 19, 2019 10:02 p.m.

    mrjj69--Bountiful Utah

    I can think of something much more dangerous than an uninformed voter--namely, a corrupt politician who acts in his/her own best interests or in the best interests of the rich/powerful donors of that politician, rather than in the voters' best interests. That describes many modern-day politicians whom I have observed (in each party). That also explains why the U.S. version of the free market system is currently not working for a large portion of the U.S. population. For example, despite what Republican politicians may try to sell to the U.S. public, "trickle down" economics doesn't really work; rather, it makes the rich richer and everyone else poorer.

    Governor Herbert stated he believes millennials "worry that free market capitalism is failing and that it’s a win-lose system." The truth is that U.S. Federal/State governments are failing the free market system and making it into a win-lose system. Unrestrained capitalism works only for the few individuals who make it to the top of the food chain first--at the expense of everyone else. When government fails to properly regulate capitalism, it becomes a win-lose system, just as millennials believe.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    May 19, 2019 2:40 p.m.

    My advice to millenials who want to fight poverty and to fight for social justice is to leave the government out of it. You won't be reinventing the wheel, you will be reinventing the flat tire.

    Find a way to do it without the government. At best, they will make things more of a mess than they found them. At worst, they will corrupt the system to intentionally make it worse.

  • zipadeedoodah Lehi, UT
    May 19, 2019 10:46 a.m.

    Our youth are being brainwashed by liberal teachers and professors.

    And the media are but an extension of this, including DN. Indeed, college journalism classes routinely include indoctrination that it is not the responsibility of journalists to be objective and independent, but rather, they need to take the "higher ground" and be social activists to change our world (and in a liberalized, socialized way.)

    As responsible citizens and parents, we need to take more concern about what they are "teaching" to our youth and push back at media, including DN, who keep attacking and suppressing conservative views.

  • ERB Eagle Mountain, UT
    May 19, 2019 9:07 a.m.

    The problem with Socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money.
    -Margaret Thatcher

    Anyone that wants socialism doesn’t get it. If you can’t be rewarded with hard work, why work hard. If the guy next to me is lazy and is still paid the same, how long will it take me to put in the same lazy effort. Productivity falls, everyone makes less...Socialism. I don’t see Hollywood’s actors making $20 million a movie accepting $1 million so the extra standing in the back makes $1 million. Yet they keep pushing Socialism.

  • mrjj69 bountiful, UT
    May 19, 2019 2:06 a.m.

    I have said it before. There is nothing more dangerous than an uninformed voter.

  • Thomas Paine South Jordan, UT
    May 18, 2019 7:42 p.m.

    @Howard Bea,
    What socialist countries in Europe are you referring to?
    May I remind you that social programs are not socialism. Socialism is an economic system where the government takes control and ownership of the primary economic producers. IE, the government in Venezuela took ownership of the oil production away from private companies. Their are countries in Europe that have social programs funded by taxes but this not socialism.

  • Herbert Gravy Salinas, CA
    May 18, 2019 6:32 p.m.

    Oh, my. Social Security is "socialism"?

    Most of us hard working folks put more into it than we will ever get out.

    It has probably been "corrupted" to allow payments to some who never contributed to it?

    To that extent, it might be described as socialism.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    May 18, 2019 5:00 p.m.


    I believe that there are plenty of great examples of businesses of all sorts of size where the creator of the company can make a profit and the workers or employees of said company don't feel exploited and the product is of good quality and pleasing to the customer. I don't necessarily think profit motive and exploitation of labor or taking advantage of customers have to go hand in hand. I know marxist you obviously believe in all things Karl Marx, but to me his theories are among just one among many. His writings are not the Bible. Plus, as we head into the 21st century, maybe the likes of Marx, Friedman and Smith need to be tweaked or done away with for new models.

  • rvalens2 Burley, ID
    May 18, 2019 3:55 p.m.

    After reading all the comments posted here today, I am amazed that we haven't yet fallen apart as a country.

    Instead of listening and understanding what others have to say on a subject, too many of us stoop to calling other people's ideas "nonsense" and claiming "how out of touch you are."

    Both of which were posted in response to me.

    Yet, both respondents failed to read and truly understand what I had written. In the first place, I never stated I was against all government regulation — only against "excessive" regulations.

    In the second, I was paraphrased as having said people should "get a degree in a marketable area." Something I never wrote, and which you will not find in any of my posts.

    Clearly, people need to carefully re-read what others have written before posting a reply that simply isn't true.

  • Onion Daze Payson, UT
    May 18, 2019 1:39 p.m.

    @ carmen

    "...they also have huge North Sea oil revenues that they use to bolster their living standards..."

    It is not "they". Norway is the only Nordic country with plenty of oil money. Sweden has essentially zero oil. Denmark pumps less oil per capita than the USA.

    Go to Wikipedia and look up "List of countries by oil production".

    Rank Country barrels per day Oil production per capita

    ------ World 80,622,000 10,798

    1 USA 12,000,000 35,922

    2 Russia 11,200,000 73,292

    3 Saudi Arabia 11,114,000 324,886

    15 Norway 1,648,000 313,661

    39 Denmark 140,637 24,639

    ?? Sweden essentially zero zero

    ?? Finland essentially zero zero

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    May 18, 2019 1:22 p.m.


    The North Sea oil has benefitted mostly Norway, less so Sweden and Finland, but Finland and Sweden have robust, innovative economies, particularly in technology.

    What so many young Americans see is the ongoing erosion of the middle class, with the likelihood of them matching their parents' success declining.

    Other nations have taken measures to make economic inequality less severe, with our northern neighbors Canada having a more equitable GINI index than we do, which is closer to Mexico's. Canadians have far greater social cohesion, better health scores, and with a population of just 1/10th that of the US, Canada takes in equal numbers of immigrants.

    Milennials see the angry social climate we have, mushrooming mental health crises, and conclude there must be a better way.

    Why do you think the US birthrate has plummeted so far? Economic anxiety endangers our future.

    The Social Democracies incentivize young people to have babies, to invest in the nation's future. Do we just sit back and let things continue to deteriorate?

  • jeclar2006 Oceanside, CA
    May 18, 2019 1:08 p.m.

    This article based on the false premise that what is being talked about in mainstream politics is 'socialism'.

    Perhaps Governor Herbert should peruse a dictionary on the definition of 'socialism'. He will find that one of the main elements of socialism is government ownership of the means of production.

    Even the ACA used privately owned insurance companies and privately owned medical services for the program.

    The Government paying private industry for goods and services is not socialism by any definition, except in the warped thinking of current conservatives.

    The Federal government has not 'nationalized', i.e. taken ownership of major defense contractors to supply the military with goods and services, but has paid for support to private enterprise.

    The medical programs or the the various other social support programs almost in all cases result in private businesses and owners of resources being paid for their products and services.

  • carman Wasatch Front, UT
    May 18, 2019 12:32 p.m.

    To Marxist:

    re: ""Profit" is problematic. Smith and Ricardo described an ideal market as one where equivalents are exchanged."

    Profits aren't problematic at all. They are the solution to scarcity. The real answer is that "real" or "economic" profits are temporary. They only exist when the market is producing too few of a given good or service. Profits are the signal markets send to encourage more production of a good or service. When profits are eroded by new entrants, fewer factors of production are drawn to a given line of work, and growth in production slows (or even reverses) until the market is in balance.

    Capitalist economies tend to produce and abundance of quantity and variety of goods and services. Capitalist economies tend to be innovative and solve problems for consumers. Capitalist economies tend to offer relatively more opportunity for the hard working and innovative who are willing to solve problems for others. Socialist economies are notorious for shortages, lack of innovation, slow growth, and, by the way, even more cronyism than capitalist systems. They offer fewer choices in the market, fewer solutions, fewer jobs and higher prices. Sounds lovely.

  • carman Wasatch Front, UT
    May 18, 2019 11:59 a.m.

    To I M LDS 2:

    Comparing the large, diversified U.S. to small Nordic/Scandinavian countries with populations smaller than many large U.S. cities is silly. Not only do these counties have tiny, homogeneous populations with tightly centered northern European cultures and ethos, they also have huge North Sea oil revenues that they use to bolster their living standards (oil revenues that are quickly dwindling). While the sovereign wealth funds from their NS oil will hold them over for a time, these capital honey pots will eventually be burned through and then these economies will face the slow growth, high inflation, low innovation, low opportunity world that their socialist counterparts though out history have endured.

    Barrack Obama loved the European model and wanted to bring it here. It would be a disaster. Northern Europe benefited from the strong euro and low interest rates by selling to rapidly increasing debtor nations in southern Europe. This debt accumulation masked the slow real growth of these socialist countries from the late 90's through 2008, but the past decade has shown how low opportunity these socialist economies really are. We shouldn't hope to become Europe.

  • carman Wasatch Front, UT
    May 18, 2019 11:44 a.m.

    We were just in France where the gilets jaunes ("yellow vests") were protesting against the elitist, socialist policies of that country that have contributed to high prices, sluggish growth, a lack of jobs and a complete destruction of any hope for all but the privileged to get ahead economically. Socialism sounds great from a distance, until years of accumulated problems tank the economy and leave the poor even worse off. As Maggie Thatcher said, eventually you do "run out of other people's money".

    We cannot let socialism creep in and destroy the best economic system the world has ever known. Capitalism has brought billions of people out of poverty, more than any other "ism". We do need to fix some problems, but building a socialist economy will have a devastating impact on opportunity and quality of life for coming generations.

    The biggest fixes needed are rooting out "crony capitalism" (just another word for corporate socialism), invest in education and opportunity for all, regulate negative externalities, and encourage private and public leaders through positive social pressure to be honest and fair in their politics and business. Its a tall order, but the right path.

  • TOO Fairview, UT
    May 18, 2019 11:42 a.m.

    As a millennial, I have many friends who think socialism is the way, and others who despise it. I myself believe socialism is Godless.

    There are many reasons my generation and younger generations are absorbing these awful concepts. These reasons have to do with how we all grew up.

    Gone are the days of only giving the deservers awards. Everyone, regardless of outcome is applauded and "special". There is no holding a student back if he or she is not ready to advance in school.

    We worried so much about making everyone equal and all things fair that nobody is able to accept the successes of others. If someone makes a million dollars a year, it is perceived as unfair, and the government should be able to seize it and give it to the person who makes 30k.

    It's unfair that a person who has no college education is making $10/hr at McDonald's while the businessman who put years of schooling in is making $10/sec.

    The world has never been fair. It was never intended to be. When you can't accept your own situation, do something to change it. Don't make others change what they love because you can't have it.

  • All American Herriman, UT
    May 18, 2019 11:36 a.m.

    @rvalens2 - Burley, ID - Finally a truism. "Capitalism works best when there is true competition for services and products. Instead, excessive government rules and regulations prevent and stifle competition — keeping prices artificially high."

    Everyone is looking at their little piece of the world as affected by current economics. Take a step back. Notice that NO economic system in any country is perfect. Why? Because they are run by imperfect (and mostly) greedy humans.

    Capitalism is not perfect and can be distorted by greed. Socialism, true socialism, always ends up as an authoritarian government (yes, Venezuela and NK). Democratic socialism (like the Nordic countries) is not perfect as you would find out by studying them. There are trade offs - like significantly higher taxes to pay for the social welfare programs.

    Before touting the perfectionism of Nordic socialism, read "Debunking Utopia: Exposing the Myth of Nordic Socialism."

    If millennials want a different economic system, they better get busy studying because just letting life "happen" because you believe something never gets you what you want.

  • Applelovernow Henderson, NV
    May 18, 2019 11:25 a.m.

    @rvalens2 This demonstrates how out of touch you are.

    ‘In the late 1980s, an average home PC cost $3,500. Today, a far superior PC costs $500. True capitalism, reduces prices even as quality increases. This is what happens when the "market" gets to decide who the winners and losers are — instead of the government.’

    My friend, the drop in PC or laptop costs is due to the cheap labor in China. If they were made in the US as well as your phone you probably couldn’t afford it.

    And another thought on your idea to get a degree in ‘marketable’ areas like engineering and IT. That again shows how out of touch you are. My family has 3 engineering degrees, 2 advanced IT degrees and 2 MBA’s. They will all tell you how hard it is to enter the job market in these areas now and earn a livable wage and live in an affordable area.

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  • Coastie benton, IL
    May 18, 2019 11:22 a.m.

    The older generation loves socialism. They love Social Security and Medicare.
    Try to stop those Socialism programs.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    May 18, 2019 11:09 a.m.

    There's an enormous chasm in understanding of what "socialism" is.

    Gov Herbert thinks the youngsters are clamoring for a "command and control", centrally planned economy, ala the Soviet Union.

    Sanders, AOC and others are referring to Scandinavian style "Social Democracy", which uses a capitalist economy with a robust social safety net.

    Right-wingers fear we'd turn into another Venezuela. It's a bad fantasy based on ignorance.

    Go to Sweden, Norway or Denmark and ask yourself if they're on the verge of becoming another Venezuela. Think about it - they've had a much longer time to "achieve" that kind of scenario... but it hasn't - and won't - happen.

    Does having seniors in the US getting Social Security put us on the slippery slope to becoming Venezuela? Of course not.

    Think things through, people.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    May 18, 2019 10:59 a.m.

    I think the problem with Herbert's assessment is that free markets in America today aren't truly free. Government has far too much control and corrupt crony capitalism has replaced any idea of "free enterprise". Unadulterated, unregulated capitalism is also not a good situation, unless we want to be back dealing with 19th century tycoons and no labor rights..."you broke your ribs working the railroad? Sorry, we'll find someone else, and won't pay for your injuries".

    No thank you.

    What we have today is the same tycoon cronyism of the 19th century, but we only have labor rights and anti-trust because of more socialist ideas (and young people are well aware of that). My issue is, instead of teaching "capitalism good, socialism bad", we need to teach that it's not an all or nothing proposition. I believe free markets can and will work if corrupt gov stays out of it, and more socialist programs that protect the health and development of laborers and citizens will also work to ensure companies don't trample people like they did in the 19th century. Unfortunately, the only way this balance works is if the government is not corrupt and is fair and altruistic toward its citizens...

  • Misty Mountain Kent, WA
    May 18, 2019 10:49 a.m.

    @rvalens2 writes,

    "This is what happens when the "market" gets to decide who the winners and losers are — instead of the government."

    Absolute nonsense.

    Those dreaded "regulations" (you know, things like requiring guards on machinery or limits on the amount of ammonia vapor in the air) affect ALL American businesses--so they are not going to keep one American company from competing with another. And your beloved free market is the reason that the same medicine (made in the same factory) costs five times as much in Burley as it does just 500 miles away--on the other side of the Canadian border.

  • GaryO Virginia Beach, VA
    May 18, 2019 10:34 a.m.

    The "surge toward socialism" is just a reaction to the insanity of Republican governance and the pain experienced by this nation directly due to the abrogation of Constitutional principles by GOP leadership.

    Back when REAL conservatives ran the GOP, the top marginal tax rate for the highest ran from 80% to 94% and the nation paid its bills. But then the Reagan administration set the precedent for coddling the wealthy by reducing their taxes and consequently running up a huge debt. Both GW Bush and Donald Trump continued that tradition of irresponsibly by burdening future generations with the horrible consequences of Republican malfeasance.

    Our government is supposed to "provide for the general welfare and secure the blessing of posterity to ourselves and posterity" just as the U.S. Constitution says. Instead "conservative" Republicans greedily take everything they can now, despoil the environment, run up the debt, and leave a horrible burden for their own descendants.

    Now people are TIRED of being exploited and cheated out of their rights as Americans.

  • Biscuit , 00
    May 18, 2019 10:34 a.m.

    Capitalism is great. If you want more money go to school, learn a trade or open a business. It's really not that hard.

  • Onion Daze Payson, UT
    May 18, 2019 10:29 a.m.

    Often opponents of "socialism" like to point to past and present totalitarian countries as fair and honest examples of "socialism". (Soviet Union, North Korea, Mainland China, Nazi Germany, etc, etc.)

    Well let me point to a textbook example totalitarian free enterprise right here in the USA. A slave plantation in the Southern United States in 1855. No holds barred free enterprise. Private property (slaves) unhindered by government. In fact the governments of many states support this economic system. One of the major responsibilities of local control sheriffs is to catch runaway slaves. It is as terrible as a Stalin slave labor camp in Yakutsk, Siberia in 1938, but not nearly as cold.

    Free enterprise and private property does not automatically deliver just societies.

    "Socialism" does not automatically deliver just societies either.

    Both have also delivered totally rotten societies.

    All systems need just laws, independent judiciary, free and honest "press", public education at least through high school, etc, etc.

  • GaryO Virginia Beach, VA
    May 18, 2019 10:29 a.m.

    The "surge toward socialism" is just a reaction to the insanity of Republican governance and the pain experienced by this nation directly due to the abrogation of Constitutional principles by GOP leadership.

    Back when REAL conservatives ran the GOP, the top marginal tax rate for the highest ran from 80% to 94% and the nation paid it's bills. But then the Reagan administration set the precedent for coddling the wealthy by reducing their taxes and running up a huge debt. Then both GW Bush and Donald Trump continued that tradition of irresponsibly by burdening future generations with the the horrible consequences of Republican malfeasance.

    Our government is supposed to "provide for the general welfare and secure the blessing of posterity to ourselves and posterity" just as the U.S. Constitution says. Instead "conservative" Republicans greedily take everything they can now, despoil the environment, run up the debt, and leave a horrible burden for their own descendants.

    And people are TIRED of it.

  • andyjaggy American Fork, UT
    May 18, 2019 10:24 a.m.

    I doubt it's ignorance governor, but a distinct feeling that they have been let down by the system. When an entire generation has been put in the wringer because of poor decisions and crony capitalism from the generations before them, they might start to wonder about better alternatives.

    Capitalism stinks, but I still believe it's better than any other alternative.

  • rvalens2 Burley, ID
    May 18, 2019 9:52 a.m.

    Capitalism isn't without its warts. But the "Crony Capitalism" that we see today has come about because of government interference in the market place.

    Remember? Some banks were, "Too big to fail."

    Capitalism works best when there is true competition for services and products. Instead, excessive government rules and regulations prevent and stifle competition — keeping prices artificially high.

    Here is one example of what competition can do.

    In the late 1980s, an average home PC cost $3,500. Today, a far superior PC costs $500. True capitalism, reduces prices even as quality increases. This is what happens when the "market" gets to decide who the winners and losers are — instead of the government.

  • Herbert Gravy Salinas, CA
    May 18, 2019 9:47 a.m.


    Those young folks to whom you refer need to get a degree in a discipline that is in demand.

    How about Accounting? Engineering? Computer Programming. Cyber security?

    Success in any economy/economic system requires wisdom, planning, and HARD WORK.

    This doesn't need to be difficult.


  • Misty Mountain Kent, WA
    May 18, 2019 9:47 a.m.

    @Elsleuth writes,

    "They vote in favor of the Equality Act that will fundamentally change our society because they want to be popular with a segment of our society. Our youth see these things happening and they get discouraged."

    I, for one, favor the Equality Act because treating people equally is the right thing to do. "Being popular with a segment of our society" is what the Republicans did when they passed the tax cut bill. I might add that that segment is the one that is generous with campaign contributions.

    The Equality Act is one of the few things coming out of Congress that is enormously popular with "youth", by which I assume you mean people under 35 or so. Tax cuts, much, much less so. And nobody could go to a Bernie Sanders rally and conclude that youth are "discouraged".

  • xert Santa Monica, CA
    May 18, 2019 9:39 a.m.

    "lack of familiarity with the tenets of free market capitalism"


    Subtext for that---"young people have too much familiarity with how greedy people bend capitalism to their favor and get toadyish politicians to make that easy to do." If that's "success"--- let's find a different barometer.

  • Misty Mountain Kent, WA
    May 18, 2019 9:37 a.m.

    @RBB writes,

    "I can't find the socioeconomic figures you quoted. "

    I don't think you looked very hard. Try Google.

    "But if things are this grim, then why do we still have one of the top two economies in the world, and why do those countries rely upon our military?"

    You're confusing apples and kumquats.

  • rvalens2 Burley, ID
    May 18, 2019 9:33 a.m.

    Those who support socialism simply believe that government is better at making decisions for you — than you are yourself.

    Instead of pushing the benefits of capitalism, Governor Herbert would be better off talking about what happens when the government decides it knows best what to do with your life, property, and money.

  • Applelovernow Henderson, NV
    May 18, 2019 9:27 a.m.

    It is amazing how out of touch the Governor is. Thanks to unfettered capitalism young folks watched their parent’s saving disappear in the stock market crash of 2008, their homes devalue during the housing crash and in the meantime they were having to take out student loans at exorbitant interest rates just to go to college because there were no jobs available to them. BUT in our true ‘capitalistic way’ we bailed out the banks who were ‘too big to fail’. The income gap is now greater than it was in the early 20th century when President Teddy Roosevelt started trust busting. He felt the roll of government was to balance the excesses of capitalism. We could use him today. One other note, I am so so tired of the use of Venezuela, North Korea etc as examples of failed socialism. These super capitalists never use examples of Australia, New Zealand, Canada, or Norway because socialism has worked well there and in many other counties. It did work in Venezuela under the Chavez government but the corruption of the current government has destroyed the economy. I also wonder how much more successful Cuba would have been if the US had not blocked trade with them?

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    May 18, 2019 9:26 a.m.

    Most millennials are VERY familiar with the benefits of the post 1980 capitalism--in the same way that Middle Age serfs were familiar with the benefits of the feudal system. They are painfully aware of history and know that life has changed since their grandarents' era; the factory jobs (and the labor unions that spoke up for them) have long since been replaced by robots and "made in China" stickers. They know about the obscenely high salaries of the CEO's who just upped the deductible AND the employee "contribution" to the health insurance, while they are struggling to pay for rent and student loans. They know who benefits from the 2018 tax cuts and they know that it isn't them. And they know that voting the party line is going to get them more of the same.

  • There You Go Again St George, UT
    May 18, 2019 9:17 a.m.

    Gov Gary (GG) is lecturing DN readers or anyone else reading his comments that he knows what's best for all of us unwashed masses specifically younger folks.

    Capitalism has worked well for GG and his real estate cronies.

    Privatize the profit...

    Socialize the cost.

    Crony capitalism has replaced the myth of the type of capitalism GG is trying to sell.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    May 18, 2019 9:14 a.m.

    Free entrepreneurship and free markets is a wonderful economic system. Mixed capitalism with government and fair labor participation is a productive economic system with social benefits. Pure raw capitalism is pure corrupted evil. And that is what too much of the world is suffering today, and what the younger generations are protesting and seek to remedy. With an advanced nation like the USA capitalist system where one tenth of one percent of the population owns a combined wealth of more than the combined wealth of a remaining ninety percent it is a worst case scenario than the feudalism system of the middle ages. Naturally, the wealthy politicians support it because they benefit from the injustice of a warped discriminatory, prejudice social, economic, political system of autocrats.

  • Herbert Gravy Salinas, CA
    May 18, 2019 9:09 a.m.


    Yes, "vengeance" is the perfect description.

  • Elsleuth Valencia, Ca
    May 18, 2019 8:50 a.m.

    Socialism is where the government makes all the decisions. We are quickly moving in that direction. The problem with that is that our representatives are making so many decisions based on greed and holding onto power. They let immigration happen without controls so they can get the votes of immigrants. They let big business have obscene salaries because they get benefits from big business. They vote in favor of the Equality Act that will fundamentally change our society because they want to be popular with a segment of our society. Our youth see these things happening and they get discouraged. Who wouldn't.

    More government control is not the solution. There need to be some controls yes, but they should be based on the constitution and on the greater good, not greed and power.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2019 8:39 a.m.

    The government manipulation of free markets by tariffs and free money to farmers is a huge issue.

  • cityboy Farmington, UT
    May 18, 2019 8:27 a.m.

    Make no mistake about it, our country believes in and heavily practices socialism. Socialism for agriculture is a $20 B $/year business which 40% of all farms enjoy to the tune of about $25,000/year. We have socialized public utilities, socialized transportation, socialized defense, socialized primary and secondary education, social security and to a degree socialized medicine. What arch-conservatives don’t believe in is certain types of socialism, like free college education and universal health care.

    My parents and grandparents drilled into me early on the adage of “get an education”. I was the first college graduate in my family. I graduated without any student debt, got a good job, and was able to support my family with a middle-class lifestyle and realize the promise of a better life than my parents had. Today the average student graduates with nearly $40,000 of student loan debt which totals a staggering $1.5 T/year — 50% more than America’s credit card debt. The promise of prosperity is an illusion for a large percentage of our population. Income disparity between the haves and the have-nots is alarming and growing.

    No wonder the younger natives are getting restless.

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    May 18, 2019 8:26 a.m.

    You wonder why some people have little faith in capitalism when your keynote speaker at this country club summit ran Hewlett-Packard into the ground. Hewlett-Packard was the gold standard for high tech until Fiorina took the wheel. Fiorina has never been held accountable for that debacle. The problem isn't creeping socialism - it is crony capitalism.

    May 18, 2019 8:17 a.m.

    This is comical because we do not live in a free-market state or country. The market is not free because of tariffs which ultimately are passed onto the consumer and are designed to impact the market. Because of tariffs we now are subsidizing industries impacted by tariffs, which also impacts the market. We subsidize other industries through direct payments to those industries as well as tax regulation. Businesses are promised reduced property taxes for relocating. Other industries benefit from different rules on sales tax. Many corporations pay little to no income tax which other competing businesses do. Even things like the mortgage interest deduction impact the construction industry. The younger generation does not need a history lesson to see through the hypocrisy of those who benefit most from an economic system that is tilted in their favor. Does socialism have all of the answers? No. But please stop fear mongering as a method for avoiding the problems with our current economic system. It is not perfect. It can be improved. A good start would be to get rid of the subsidies and tax incentives that distort the “free market” you claim to support.

  • countryvoice3 Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2019 8:17 a.m.

    It's bizarre to say but I hope Governor Herbert is just playing politics with his claim that the youth are mesmerized by a command and control economy versus an economy where they can dream big and achieve big, and that he's not really that ignorant.

    As many have pointed out here no one is looking for a command and control economy but what they are looking for are solutions to places in the economy where markets and "capitalism" have failed miserably.

    What they know is that they can't afford their education, their health care, a down payment on a house, and a nest egg for emergencies. What they know is that the same preparation their parents had for life doesn't garner the same results.

    Herbert is wrong that they want a command and control economy. What they are looking for is a way to reasonably have a dream and achieve it.

    I'm not saying Bernie has the answers (I personally don't think so), but a false narrative, and a blind eye to the deficiencies of todays American economy as evidenced by Herbert will do irreparable damage.

  • stevo123 Driggs, ID
    May 18, 2019 8:05 a.m.

    The renewed interest in "Socialism" will be a foot in the door to take over our beloved public lands.

  • Herbert Gravy Salinas, CA
    May 18, 2019 7:59 a.m.

    Yes, please tax the rich more and more.

    They "didn't build" that business". (Per Barack Obama).

    Besides, that will give all of access to even more money that WE didn't earn

    What's not to like?

  • VIDAR Murray, UT
    May 18, 2019 7:56 a.m.

    How does capitalism fit with all the subsidies and bailouts some companies receive? How does it fit when the government gives special tax breaks and incentives to some companies and not others? We are currently functioning under capitalist-socialism, their motto being socialize the cost and privatize the profits. Democratic-socialism simply moves the bailouts, subsidies, special tax breaks, and incentives from the super rich and mega-large corporations to the middle and lower classes and small businesses.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    May 18, 2019 7:53 a.m.

    Times haven't really changed.
    An old adage goes, What do you call a twenty year old single college student?
    Answer:A democrat.

    What do you call a married forty year old working parent?
    Answer:A republican.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2019 7:41 a.m.

    @Howard Beal "It is okay to make profit on a good product or service provided, where workers are treated well ..."

    "Profit" is problematic. Smith and Ricardo described an ideal market as one where equivalents are exchanged. So if equivalents are exchanged in general commerce where to profits come from? Marx answers that question with a vengeance.

  • Freiheit Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2019 7:34 a.m.

    I'll believe the governor's paean to capitalism when I see Utah's liquor stores in private hands.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2019 7:33 a.m.

    "Utah Gov. Gary Herbert is worried that a surge of interest in socialism among younger U.S. voters is the result of their collective lack of familiarity with the tenets and benefits of free market capitalism."

    And one of the "benefits" is a massive debt load which makes many of them DOA before they even get started. Also they watched their parents nesteggs vanish per the financial industry's crash of 2008.

    Of the social sciences the most poorly understood by the general public is economics, because it is so abstract (as abstract as mathematics), and so poorly taught, and so compromised by its fear of examining Marx's master work "Capital." I dare say Governor Herbert like the rest of Utah's authorities knows nothing of Marx.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    May 18, 2019 7:32 a.m.

    I think the surging interest in socialism is partly due to the relentless fear mongering about it. It is also partly due to the very real awareness of the failures of the free market, which finds morality in profiting from your illnesses and has concentrated almost all the wealth among a few dozen people.

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    May 18, 2019 7:05 a.m.

    Good grief! ...”unfamiliarity with the free market”...? Are you kidding us, Governor? Oh, they get it - believe me.

    I’m very happy to join the younger set in wanting a fairer system. I’m firmly against a free market where a state prison can be moved at taxpayer expense because private developers rule the roost. The inland port is another example.

    No, the younger set is quite familiar with the free market forces here at home.

  • shamrock Salt Lake City, UT
    May 18, 2019 7:03 a.m.

    Could the Governor possibly be less condescending? Basically, he's saying "The reason those people don't agree with me is because they're woefully ignorant and misinformed." Both capitalism and socialism have their good points and bad points. Many socialist countries are doing better, on the whole, than we are, and heaping rhetoric on that fact doesn't change it.

  • Mainly Me Werribee, 00
    May 18, 2019 6:46 a.m.

    What I have been able to discern from the the hype of the democrats who had eight years under Obama to increase the minimum wage was all hype and hot air and nothing else. I hear the Democrats keep fueling the fire with rhetoric about how the minimum wage should be $15 per hour but do absolutely nothing to implement it. On the contrary their solution is to make you dependent on the Government for food stamps etc (socialism)

    On the other hand you hear Republicans all hyped up declaring that your McDonald's job will be taken by robots and conveyor belts if poor McDonald's has to pay $15 per hour and the country will go bankrupt. (socialism)

    Well considering that no one can live on $8-$10 per hour I think that these companies should shut up shop if all they can do is grind on the face of the poor with their slave labor. Many from both sides of the political parties are on the socialist team band wagon and are really communists in the guise of socialists.

    Yes capitalism was a fair system. Unfortunately as the world becomes more hardened and greedy Capitalism has become crony and less fair. However Socialism is only one step before Communism.

  • scrappy do DRAPER, UT
    May 18, 2019 5:20 a.m.

    America like all modern capitalist countries has a social safety net... the question is.. is it big enough.. of course it is

    True socialism is when the individual cedes their right to liberty.... liberty to pursue individual dreams and desires within a government framework that at its best is like a referee that’s not to intrusive letting the players determine the outcome

    Creeping socialism occurs when the players are ignorant of history and civics... and socialism in all of its forms is enticing because it seems more fair and just.... seems like you might not lose... seems like a safe bet....’seems’ is the operative word here... because in reality it is a bad choice

    For those who say Venezuela comparisons are getting stale... I would say it’s the best in your face example right now.... there are plenty of other examples.... maybe those lacking in their knowledge of history can get on the net and check them out

  • christoph Brigham City, UT
    May 18, 2019 4:22 a.m.

    As millennials begin to turn 40 years old, they will, like the rest of us, become conservative.

  • explorer686 davis, UT
    May 18, 2019 4:18 a.m.

    Typical rhetoric of the elitist. He is entitled to his opinion but it's completely based on ignorance. The free market capitalism he is referring to only benefits the rich/privileged. America needs a balance of socialism as well as capitalism in order to secure the less privileged equal liberty. The profit driven recidivism in the criminal justice system along with privately owned prisons, shows what capitalism does to the marginalized populations. Another aspect of free market capitalism is causing lifelong debt in the educational system. Lastly a broken, unaffordable, greed, driven health care system and pharmaceutical producers, shows exactly what free market capitalism breeds. Herbert has become so consumed with his faith and party, that he has forgotten who he works for. Fortunately the blue wave is coming and the swamp will be drained. American people deserve better.

  • Jamchild Centerville, UT
    May 18, 2019 1:55 a.m.

    Gosh Gov Herbert, I wonder where these young people might get the idea that unbridled Republican-style capitalism isn't working for them. Perhaps because it isn't working for them? And why do people always conflate any level of socialist policies with dictatorship? We can have Medicare-for-all without a dictator (see nearly every other advanced Democratic country).

  • eastcoastcoug Danbury, CT
    May 18, 2019 1:03 a.m.

    Another thought - it isn't just on Socialism that the GOP is peddling ideas that are false. Climate, guns, healthcare, abortion and many other big controversial topics are misrepresented by the Right in this country. Younger people (and many of us older ones too) see through these things and are blown away by how these false ideas hurt or hold us back.

    We aren't for 'killing babies' but we believe women should have more control over their bodies, especially in cases of rape or incest or threat of loss of life. We don't want to take people's guns away but do we really to have unlimited access to semi-automatic weapons and not require some accountability of the gun lobby and NRA? Why not go all-in for renewables and reduce air pollution and save the 1 million species at risk - do we have no accountability whatsoever to our Planet many of us believe was created for us where we have stewardship? Etc.

    The fact the GOP opposes common sense and often the truth on these topics will in the end only alienate us and destroy the party. Better to have a debate and work together than always oppose and lie about those who think differently.

  • eastcoastcoug Danbury, CT
    May 18, 2019 12:51 a.m.

    Most Americans don't even know what Socialism or Capitalism are and throw the terms around ignorantly. The tired examples of Cuba, Venezuela and Russia (whose help Trump actively sought in his election) are just dictatorships with state-owned businesses and properties. In Western Europe, Social Democrats share power with Christian Democrats or center-right Capitalists and rarely own any companies, but they do support universal insurance, subsidized housing, pensions, etc. so there are fewer poor who are generally better off.
    Their highway and rail systems are far superior to the US.

    Many of these programs were supported by Catholics or Protestants in the beginning. Europe's Christians are far more supportive historically of helping the poor through government programs than our 'Christians', many of whom actively oppose government 'welfare' and healthcare. As a result, our welfare works poorly and many of us think that people 'want' to be on welfare as some kind of scam, which is rarely if ever true.

    Younger generations of Americans and those of us who see the benefits of Social Democracy, are enticed by the things that work well and are willing to try something different.

    May 18, 2019 12:45 a.m.

    "Wealth inequality in the US is the same as in Uruguay, Turkey, Jamaica, Uganda, Haiti, El Salvador, Morocco, and Senegal. "

    In part due to the fact that we allow over a million legal immigrants each year. None of those countries have increased by 100 million from 1920-1970. And again by another 100 million between 1970 and 2010.

    I can't find the socioeconomic figures you quoted. But if things are this grim, then why do we still have one of the top two economies in the world, and why do those countries rely upon our military?

  • Mainly Me Werribee, 00
    May 17, 2019 11:38 p.m.

    "...a surge of interest in socialism among younger U.S. voters is the result of their collective lack of familiarity with the tenets and benefits of free market capitalism."

    Not only that, but the surge is the result of constantly hearing how "wonderful" socialism is while being indoctrinated in college.

  • WallE Walla Walla, WA
    May 17, 2019 11:25 p.m.

    President Trump is promoting the Socialist Agenda by degradation of our social institutions like public schools. Our great public schools gave every smart kid the chance to advance to high achievement. But wealthy individuals like our Secretary of Education promotes private schools to maintain the status quo of her level of society.

    Thank goodness our K-12 public schools are mostly funded by the states and local governments who understand education is necessary for their own viable growth.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    May 17, 2019 10:41 p.m.

    The Venezuela example of socialism is getting a bit old. There are plenty of examples of socialism or socialistic countries in Western/Northern Europe where the economy and quality of life seems to be surpassing ours by every statistical measure.

    I believe in responsible capitalism--capitalism where there is a moral base. It is okay to make profit on a good product or service provided, where workers are treated well and consumers are protected and some safety nets exist. It is capitalism where there are realistic entry points and cronyism is shunned. If this is called socialism, so be it, but I think it is the type of capitalism that could work and what millennials want (as do some of us older folk)...

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    May 17, 2019 9:54 p.m.

    The "American Dream" is the promise of going from rags to riches. Making a better life for yourself than your parents had. Social and economic mobility.

    But that dream is just that: an empty promise. Actual socioeconomic mobility in the US is far worse than Finland, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, Australia, Germany, Japan.

    Wealth inequality in the US is the same as in Uruguay, Turkey, Jamaica, Uganda, Haiti, El Salvador, Morocco, and Senegal.

    Millennials (and many others) are no longer easily blinded by the hype, lies and misdirection foisted on them by the wealthy elites (1%). You are peddling Republican propaganda, Mr. Herbert, and people are too "woke" to swallow it anymore.

  • Wyo_Jake Casper, WY
    May 17, 2019 9:51 p.m.

    The only way a sharing of mankind's wealth can possibly work is by living the law of consecration. Until we do that all of the economic systems will cause deprivation and hardship for some parts of our society. That is just the way it is.

    May 17, 2019 9:47 p.m.

    Capitalist believes that people can make their own best decisions. Socialists believe that we are incapable of decision making, and therefore elites need to decide for us.

    It's on the rise because of part of the Democratic party, and much of the media.

  • CentralcoastUte San luis obispo , CA
    May 17, 2019 9:31 p.m.

    SAS, if you think it's so bad here, try Venezuela, a socialist paradise and a prime example of what happens with socialism every. Single. Time. It's great at first, but soon, you run out of everyone else's money.

  • UrbanLegendXV Provo, UT
    May 17, 2019 9:28 p.m.

    It's consistently being proven that the dream of capitalism had a lifespan and is proving to be ineffective in providing the quality of life for the majority of the population that it once did. This is the 21st Century and there are many ways of achieving things that were not possible on a societal scale in past decades.

    We are not naive children - we do not believe that raw socialism will solve everything. We simply want accountability on our representatives to utilize the power of the government to ensure that the market does not work against our ability to thrive or inhibit our basic human rights and that taxes are used to improve the quality of life for ourselves and the community in which we live.

    We have the power of retrospective without a rose tint and that result is a rich catalog of corrupt practices that we do not want to fall victim to. We are not limited by much of the propaganda that older generations were subjected to. There is plenty of room for those who require the luxurious lifestyle to achieve it without any compromise. The demeaning words by the governor are a sure fire way to alienate the population as to which he is sworn to keep the best interests of.

  • bill4570 ,
    May 17, 2019 9:25 p.m.

    After seeing how capitalism is just feeding the top layer of wealth, it isn't too surprising to see how some form of trickle down theory is gaining thought. Hate to call this "trickle down theory" "socialism" for the apparent stigma it carries with it. But obviously things aren't fair under the current way of doing things, Companies have to make money, not a problem. But when you read about some board of director or some bail out company garnering obscene amounts of money for failing, then something is wrong.

    I believe that more people equate capitalism with cronyism, greed, avrise and wealth for the few. We don't need to go full on socialism, but something has to be done to correct the wrongs done by greed.

  • Leninism Bountiful, UT
    May 17, 2019 9:18 p.m.

    Pretty soon the younger US voters will not be able to afford a decent house to live in.

  • Jripplefireesquire Rancho Cordova, CA
    May 17, 2019 8:15 p.m.

    I would sure look forward to being able to hear or see some of these speakers and their topics on podcasts or YouTube or the like.

  • SAS Sandy, UT
    May 17, 2019 6:30 p.m.

    "When I think of capitalism, I think of the opportunity to dream big … then having the opportunity to go out and work and realize that dream."

    Big dreams are great. They're rather hard to achieve if you're working a crappy job, barely able to afford the cost of your student loans and health insurance.

    More and more millennials are turning 30. We realize that, as they're entering adulthood, all these amazing benefits of capitalism aren't showing up in our lives, careers, paychecks, or families. Perhaps someone is getting rich. On average, that's not us.