GOP hoping voters open to warnings of Democrats' socialism

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  • Light and Liberty St George, UT
    May 1, 2019 11:22 a.m.

    The left and the right mince words. Crony Capitalism is not Capitalism, but Socialism is what it is: Extortion, theft, and antithetical to freedom. Neither are true to the fundamentals of a free market society, the only society that can provide long term prosperity. Many here are Socialists, plain and simple, but try to tell us that government intervention into private enterprise is not Socialistic or we just need to accept for the 'better good' or some other foolish notion. They don't like the label, but love to implement the socialist ideas into the marketplace as if it really won't harm every citizen in the short and the long term. Medicare and Social security are Socialistic and had the free market been allowed to operate, our country would be wealthier, our citizens more free. Social Security achieved its purpose by extortion and malfeasance. Would I do away with it? No, because I was the one extorted from and expect a ROI, which is far less than I would have had if I had been able to do it myself! So, Socialists, you are what you are, and Trump has done more for a limited return to these fundamentals than any president in recent history. Thank you!

  • Lib Survival on Planet Utah SLC, UT
    April 30, 2019 11:34 p.m.

    For years, alt-rightists have been fixated on Venezuela. Breitbart has occasionally published multiple articles per day. The underlying argument is: proposals of publicly funded health care, infrastructure, and education are a hop, skip, and a jump away from totalitarianism, medical supply shortages, and widespread hunger. The Donald continues using this propaganda tactic to dismiss Democratic opponent’s progressive ideas. For example. Rep. Beto O’Rourke “will never be allowed to turn Texas into Venezuela!” Numerous Republicant candidates have done the same. The RNC sent emails to voters declaring that Democrat Ocasio-Cortez was the “Mini-Maduro Foreboding The Future Of Democrats.” This low informational narrative might lend itself easily for righteous, colorful outbursts, but it completely disregards history. The notion that Venezuela is an example of socialism gone wrong is absurd. If there isn’t equality, there isn’t socialism, no matter what the country’s leaders may choose to call themselves! If anything, Venezuela tells us a lot more about the problems of dictatorship, corruption, and incompetence than what liberals are actually proposing. You’re welcome as always.

  • jjjdsd Centerville, UT
    April 30, 2019 4:54 p.m.

    Last thought. The DABC is a monopoly, not a socialist endeavor.

    Monopoly: The exclusive control of the supply of a commodity in a given market.

    And the public is not limited to getting a single drink from the DABC. There are many bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.

  • jjjdsd Centerville, UT
    April 30, 2019 4:04 p.m.

    Smiths is a division of Kroger stores, why then do they not have the same selection of products the same in every store. Because market determines the products offered in both the DABC and Kroger stores. In New Mexico you can purchase sheep heads in the meat department, but you won't find them in the SLC stores because the market determines what is sold.

    In a Socialist economic model there is not a diversity of products. You only get the states products.

  • jjjdsd Centerville, UT
    April 30, 2019 3:57 p.m.

    Lago, you have presented some interesting ideas but they are overly simplified. The DABC is not a socialist venture. It is really a government acting in a capitalist endeavor. In accounting terminology it is an enterprise fund.

    And I would argue that a retailer cash registers and store front is not the means of production, but lets set that aside.

    In a truly socialistic world the DABC example, the state owns the farmlands, and the breweries, and the shippers, and the store fronts, and sets the labor rates. The state owns the means of production.

    The DABC does not own the means of production. They have no control over the products that are produced, and the DABC has to compete in the market place to purchase what they sell. The fact that they have full shelves has noting to do with socialism, it is entirely dependent on a capitalist system.

    You made a point of saying "The DABC doesn’t site stores or choose products based solely on market demand. If they did, there would be more stores and more selection." Please define more selection.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    April 30, 2019 1:44 p.m.

    2 of 2
    Continued

    The profit vs. policy motive has been the crux of the conservative critique of socialism. The profit motive forces efficiency. The policy motive doesn’t, because taxes. The DABC doesn’t site stores or choose products based solely on market demand. If they did, there would be more stores and more selection. They make decisions based on guidance from the legislature based on political (moral) considerations. For Bernie’s and AOC’s universal health care proposals, the policy goal is ensuring that everyone has access to affordable care regardless of means.

    You miss the point of my OP, which is that conservatives paint socialism as a horror inexorably leading to starvation and totalitarianism (Cuba and Venezuela as the poster children), and yet they readily embrace socialism (like the DABC) when it serves them (achieves the moral good of alcohol control). The DABC actually functions fairly well. The shelves aren’t bare. And yet Utah has not succumbed to pogroms, gulags, and killing fields. Our democratic institutions are strong enough to dabble in socialism without going full-blown Bolshevik. The conservative frenzy over socialism is just hullabaloo.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    April 30, 2019 1:44 p.m.

    1 of 2

    @jsf: Very few retailers manufacture their merchandise. Are you suggesting that Larry H. Miller, Kroger, and The Gap are not capitalist enterprises because they do not make the cars, food, and clothes they sell? Retailers “produce” a place where widgets manufactured by others can be sold. The “means of production” for retail are stores, shelves, and cash registers, which they do own and control. The Utah DABC is no different from other retailers in this respect. The difference is that the DABC is 100% government owned and has monopoly control over an entire retail product sector. That makes it a socialist venture.

    “Markets determine the number and locations of retail outlets.” This points to another difference between the DABC and capitalism that I mentioned in my OP. Capitalist businesses are run to create profit for the owners. Socialist businesses are run to further a government policy goal. Profit is secondary, because taxes can make up the losses. For the DABC, the goal is keeping alcohol consumption within desired limits.

    Continued

  • jjjdsd Centerville, UT
    April 30, 2019 10:20 a.m.

    @ JaneB "The republican party needs to be burned to the ground in 2020 - from top to bottom."

    Is that a metaphorical threat or an actual terroristic threat? Just asking.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    April 30, 2019 10:09 a.m.

    The ABC does not have control of the means of production, does not have control of the product costs. These are free market determined. Purchase price of inventory are determined by agreement between a willing seller and a willing buyer. Product diversity is determined by what products sell in the stores and what products don't sell in the stores.

    Growers own their own land and determine what agricultural products they will grow and sell for what ever price they set.

    Distilleries, wineries, and brewers have control to determine the price they will pay for the production materials. They determine to sell to whom ever they wish to, for what ever price they set.

    Retail prices are a factor of product costs from suppliers and revenue costs for overhead. Markets determine the number and locations of retail outlets.

    Do I like the ABC's limiting controls, no. Do I think a full free market is better yes.

    Funny that you should bring up the ABC to throw in the face of those against nationalizing industries. Then complain how bad the government controls are. You shot the argument for socialism in both feet.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    April 30, 2019 10:09 a.m.

    mcclark
    one of the evils of socialism is people become dependent on it and so do not want to cut the strings, thus little support for doing away with SS or medicare. Should anyone try, the dems use untruthful scare tactics in TV ads, falsely claiming the GOP wants to throw granny off the cliff

    JaneB
    Referendum on trump

    01/04/19
    WSJ
    Manufacturing employment fell by 210k during BO’s two terms. It has risen by 473k Trump’s first two years.

    02/13/19
    Sample Byline
    Median wage growth for those who jumped to new positions picked up to 4.6 percent in January from a year earlier, the fastest pace since October 2007

    03/13/19
    CNBC
    Average hourly earnings rose 3.4% in February from the same period a year ago, according to the BLS. The biggest gain since April 2009 and 7th month in a row that compensation has been 3% or better

    04/18/19
    WSJ
    The # of Americans filing apps for new unemployment benefits fell last week to a 50-year low. This marks the lowest level since September '69 when the labor market and population were much smaller

    vote on that; thanks for admitting the economy doesn’t matter to liberals

    Lagamorph
    you can't get booze easily?

  • JaneB Wilsonville, OR
    April 30, 2019 9:29 a.m.

    Thid, we can either have the rule of law or Trump. We can't have both. I'd rather have the rule of law. Without it, the economy doesn't matter much.

    Mueller found about 10 instances of obstruction of justice. He found gross abuse of power. He left it up to congress to pursue, and he indicated that Trump can be indicted when he leaves office. Anyone who reads the report knows that the malfeasance in this white house is beyond the pale, and must be repudiated for the health of system of government.

    Trump/Trumpism needs to be rooted out for good. The republican party needs to be burned to the ground in 2020 - from top to bottom. Maybe then they can rebuild as a party with a conscience. It's shocking for me, as a former republican, to see just how low the leadership is willing to go to hold power. It's disgusting, frankly.

    So, it's imperative that democrats get their act together. We just need someone to "land the plane".

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    April 30, 2019 9:13 a.m.

    jsf: “what industries do you want nationalized?”

    In Utah, an entire retail sector, an entire industry, has already been nationalized (well, state-ized). The state monopoly owns all of the assets (product inventory, stores, warehouses, property); the state receives all of the revenues; the state alone controls prices, product selection, and the number and location of retail outlets. Operational expenses not met by sales receipts are coercively taken from the citizens at large (not customers) through taxation. Government policy objectives, not profits, guide decisions. Private sector capitalist retailers like Target, CVS, and Smith’s are prevented by law from entering into the marketplace and competing with the state. In other words, “the means of production, distribution, and exchange [are] owned or regulated by the community as a whole” (your definition).

    And yet I have never seen any Republican legislator or governor propose privatizing the liquor retail industry in the state. It seems that socialism is always bad except when it isn’t.

    Contrary to the spectres of Cuba and Venezuela, limited socialism in Utah has not led inevitably to empty shelves, chaos, and deprivation.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    April 30, 2019 8:43 a.m.

    Probably more so than in any election in our nation’s history, this upcoming 2020 election comes down to this; We damage people permanently when we give them free stuff! When people are relieved of their personal responsibilities by government actions or any actions, we interfere with their right to pursue happiness that our country promises us-equal opportunity not equal outcomes! We deprive them of the personal growth and life lessons they should have experienced in life. Thus they are left a permanent, dependent, underclass, unable and unprepared to care for or even govern their own lives. We all need to work to the best of our abilities, develop our own talents and increase our own capabilities for what we receive, not force our neighbors to give us what they worked for! It’s for our own good that we work for what we receive! We do not help people by doing for them what they need to do for themselves! Indeed, we harm them in every way possible! Life is not us against our neighbors, it’s us against ourselves and the greatest joys come from personal victories where we overcome ourselves, not each other!

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    April 30, 2019 8:20 a.m.

    JaneB: "I hope Democrats figure out that this election needs to be a referendum on Trump, and that is all."
    A vote against President Trump is a vote against the best economy in the world, higher wages, record low unemployment, lower taxes, a booming stock market, the best military in the world and freedom to achieve! Democrats want to replace all of that with what?
    The left has failed at every attempt to overturn the 2016 election and rational, patriotic, freedom loving Americans were and are watching! President Trump, for all the above reasons and many more, has already won the 2020 election! Who is going to beat him?

  • at long last. . . Kirksville , MO
    April 30, 2019 7:39 a.m.

    I see that O'Rourke has bested AOC's comments, in that he says the earth only has 10 years before it ends from climate change. Seems to me that if the MSM gave proper attention to the absolutely silly comments made by the Democrat candidates for president , the GOP would not need to do anything other than sit back and watch, in order to win.

  • JaneB Wilsonville, OR
    April 29, 2019 10:01 p.m.

    I hope Democrats figure out that this election needs to be a referendum on Trump, and that is all. They need to stop talking about all these pie in the sky giveaways. People know this means higher taxes. They won't vote for it. Democrats, don't be stupid. You need to win.

  • wgirl , 00
    April 29, 2019 9:01 p.m.

    Medicare is Socialism
    Social Security is Socialism
    Farm subsidies are Socialism
    Public roads and highways are Socialism
    Tax breaks and subsidies for wealthy people and corporations is Socialism

    GOP hoping that voters open to fear-mongering and misinformation

  • Edgar Samaria, ID
    April 29, 2019 8:47 p.m.

    Do you deduct mortgage interest from your taxes? If you do then you participate in socialism. You live in subsidized housing.

  • David Centerville, UT
    April 29, 2019 8:39 p.m.

    I used to not take this kind of campaign rhetoric seriously:

    Democrats making commercials showing a Republican pushing grandma in a wheel chair over a cliff.

    Republicans claiming Democrats will make the country socialist.

    But after the recurrent, frequent, and recent comments of popular Democratic leaders, I have no doubt that Democrats would move this country away from free market capitalism to a socialist state.

    Because of the issues of abortion and socialism, I will not be voting Democrat anytime soon.

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    April 29, 2019 8:06 p.m.

    There are many ways socialism exists and different degrees that it is implemented. The reason the left applauds, embraces and is enamored with socialism is simple. Their ultimate goal is to create equal outcomes and to remove all social stratifications. That can not happen with capitalism because capitalism is competitive and rewards, hard work, innovation, ingenuity, creation and making right choices. Under capitalism some will fail economically and the left sees this as being "unfair." Prosperity goes where it is invited, where it is welcome. Socialism makes prosperity impossible because under too much socialism you get paid for doing nothing, producing nothing and creating nothing and sooner or later you have an entire nation that produces nothing, innovates nothing and creates no prosperity! You know, like Venezuela, Cuba et al where everyone is equally poor! That's socialism. Even limited socialism can only exist when it is subsidized with capitalism, you know, like Sweden and Denmark.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    April 29, 2019 6:36 p.m.

    oom not that simple - do some real evaluations and quit listening to the msnbc, cnn and like parrots of miss information. Just because you can spout and re-spout their propaganda does not mean you have made any effort to study the issue.

    "That is absolutely false. It is NOT in any way remotely what anyone is advocating."

    It is exactly what, 2020 candidates of the democratic party is espousing.

    That is exactly what is buried in the New Green Deal, democrats have signed onto. It is exactly what Socialist Democrats, Workers Party of America, Communist Party espouse on their web sites.

    From the Communist Party website, "The Communist Party must also evolve. We must make common cause with other forces on the left. This includes groups and individuals.... The Party’s leading role must not be confined to the ideological sphere or be the subject of declarations but must be won in the course of struggle. It is not an exclusive role. The idea of coalition building must include the revolutionary movement as well."

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    April 29, 2019 6:04 p.m.

    Democrats: We should have democratic socialist policies like Scandinavian countries.
    Republicans: They're not actually socialist.
    Democrats: Well we should still do things they do like universal healthcare.
    Republicans: No, that's socialist!

  • one old man MSC, UT
    April 29, 2019 5:27 p.m.

    jsf - Centerville, UT
    April 29, 2019 4:48 p.m.
    CC what industries do you want nationalized? Who's property do you want seized and redistributed? Who do you want to give your earnings and wealth to?

    ====

    You really do need to do some Fact Checking. That is absolutely false. It is NOT in any way remotely what anyone is advocating.

    But fact checking takes effort, so I understand why it's so much easier for people to simply re-spout whatever nonsense they hear from FOX and Friends.

    People who really care will make that effort. Trouble is, we may be outnumbered by those who choose the easy way out.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    April 29, 2019 4:48 p.m.

    CC what industries do you want nationalized? Who's property do you want seized and redistributed? Who do you want to give your earnings and wealth to?

    "Socialism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

    •(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism."

    It will always exist as long as their are people that think Venzueala is an Utopia.

  • mcclark Salt Lake City, UT
    April 29, 2019 4:28 p.m.

    Social Security, Medicare. Republicans fought tooth and nail to against them because it was socialism that was going to destroy America. How many want to do away with them?

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    April 29, 2019 3:53 p.m.

    "Several said capitalism was too embedded in the U.S. to be truly threatened and Republicans were using socialism to stir unease with Democrats by raising the specter of the old, repressive Soviet Union . . . . "
    ____________________
    More years ago than I care to remember, conservatives equated liberal reforms with socialism which they often defined as "creeping communism." I figured the reasoning must have lost its punch when they stopped using the term socialism to smear Democrats until a few years back when they began using it against President Obama.

    How long will it be around this time? I guess as long as they think it's working for them.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    April 29, 2019 3:41 p.m.

    oom do you support Bernies version? What did he say about Russia, Nicaragua, and Cuba's versions of socialism and their leaders.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    April 29, 2019 3:37 p.m.

    Given their records and that of trump, for dems to say they are interested in protecting jobs and incomes is just laughable.

    Old man
    Socialize expense, privatize profit – like Solyndra?

    Craig
    It may be a buzzword, but even buzzwords have meaning, and this one is bad.
    Dems dismissing this reminds me of Satan claiming not to be a devil because he says there is no devil.

  • one old man MSC, UT
    April 29, 2019 2:55 p.m.

    But they sure don't want their gullible followers to find out that what they really want is Socialism in a much different form : GOP Socialism = Socialize Expense; Privatize Profits.

    I'd much rather have the Democratic version : Pool Our Resources; Benefit Everyone.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    April 29, 2019 2:49 p.m.

    Socialism has become a trite political buzz word glibly used by conservatives, most of whom could even give a textbook definition of the term if asked.