@unrepentant. Appreciate your comments. All I’m saying is that there
is another reasonable argument to be had on this issue. Now, whether you want to
acknowledge it as a reasonable viewpoint is up to you. But, another
interesting aside is that most undocumented immigrants really couldn’t
care less about the census or voting in the next election. Interestingly enough,
they just want to be left alone.But, perhaps what undocumented
immigrants want doesn’t really matter in America anymore. And, that might
be the saddest part of all.
@unrepentant progressive 9:30 amRE: "It is outrageous to think that
immigrants, legal or otherwise, in this country do not share your enthusiasm
and/or loyalty to this country"...---Is it OK to think
Conservatives don't share your enthusiasm and/or loyalty to this country?
Because I hear comments to that effect every day. Are They
"Inflammatory"?I never hear you call out those comments as
"Inflammatory".Selective outrage?I agree
it's a bad Assumption BTW. Both of them.==RE:
"After all, most of these immigrants had barriers thrown up at them to get
in"...--you mean "Barriers"... like Walls/Fences/Border
Patrol, etc?==RE: "Most of them want to be
here"...--Well that's a pretty obvious statement. But
does just "Wanting" to be here make being here legal? Nope.What if I Want to be in your house? Doesn't make it legal, does it?==RE: "And most of them will try to stay"...--That's pretty obvious too. What's the point?===RE: "Does being born American give you some unique
perspective and loyalty to the country"... ---Don't know
about perspective. But it does give you something unique... Citizenship.I think loyalty is developed (over a lifetime)
@unrepentant progressive:I specifically referred to "citizenship
status". That would include illegals.There is no implication that
"immigrants" don't share loyalty. But certainly we can question
the loyalty of those who have entered illegally.So your attempt at
manufactured indignation is just silly. I should probably disclose that I
am married to an immigrant...a legal one, of course. Oh, yeah, and my adopted
daughter is a legal immigrant. I know a lot more about our immigration
system than I ever really wanted to, and I can assure you that it is not all
that difficult to do things legally.
ShaunThank you for your efforts to have Utah under represented. You owe us
all an apology.UnrepentAnd you’ve never posted an
inflammatory comment? Be honest, at least with yourself.
RiDalYou claim: "how many (referring to immigrants) who may not
share the same loyalty to our nation".It is outrageous to think
that immigrants, legal or otherwise, in this country do not share your
enthusiasm and/or loyalty to this country. After all, most of these immigrants
had barriers thrown up at them to get in, legally or otherwise. Most of them
want to be here. And most of them will try to stay.You probably
were born here, and the hardest thing you had to do was be born to US citizens
or residents. Does being born American give you some unique perspective and
loyalty to the country? Your comment is inflammatory. And you know
@Frozen Fractals 7:33RE: "Like using the census info to round up
undocumented immigrants"...---Has anyone suggested doing that?
A little over the top don't ya think?===@Edgar
7:01RE: "So let’s see how Trump’s friends on the Court try
to justify that change in the Constitution"...---A question
about citizenship was on the Census before. Was it unconstitutional then?Why unconstitutional now, if it wasn't then? Did Constitution
change?Google "When Did the United States Census Stop Asking
About Citizenship - Snopes"...It was on the "Short Form" from
1890 through 1950. And the "Long Form" till 2010. Was that
Unconstitutional? Or just if Trump does it?===Shaun
5:16RE: "Just tell them you are a citizen or in my case just refuse to
answer the census"...---Or... be honest. And answer the
question honestly. That's an option.Not answering the census
may not be the solution you Assume. It's against the law. But if I'm
in the country illegally... that's probably not a problem, I already
justified doing illegal things if I feel I need to.I would suggest
obeying the law. Even answering the questions honestly. Integrity is a thing
Any rational person recognizes that citizenship status on a USA census is
perfectly rational, appropriate, and Constitutional. It is also vital to
know how many citizens are here vs. how many who may not share the same loyalty
to our nation. It is common sense.
VermonterYou say: "this will prevent abuse of the census by
those who are in the US on an Undocumented basis". In order for there to be
some sort of crime or abuse as you suggest, please cite the instances that said
abuse has occurred. And what harm you might have suffered from this act. Even
more important, what rational Constitutional basis is there for undercounting
American residents?Your toss out frivolous claim is akin to another
Conservative claim of "voter fraud". As we all know the only voter
fraud of consequence is the voter suppression that many GOP controlled states
have perpetrated on residents of that state (North Carolina ring any bells?).
All in the goal of suppressing minority representation.The current
Justices on the Supreme Court are majority GOP ultra-Conservative jurists placed
into this high office to do the bidding of their Conservative benefactors. One
of those biddings was to suppress minority turn-out in both voting booths and
census counts. The Koch brothers and their ilk have seen done what they have
paid millions upon millions to see done.This is another national
Seat appropriation is based on total population. It is not based on citizens and
doing that would be unconstitutional. However, the census includes
various questions that have nothing to do with that, and this is in that vein.
It does very much hinder the attempt to get an accurate count though since
undocumented households are less likely to submit their census forms to be
counted and that is a problem but not a constitution-violating one (something
like using the census info to round up undocumented immigrants would be one).
The Constitution says:“Representatives and direct Taxes shall
be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union,
according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to
the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of
Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other
Persons.”So we’ve grown in humanity as a nation and
count all people as a whole person rather than specifying certIn people as 3/5
of a person. Or better said, we abolished slavery. And we’ve decided to
let the natives of this country vote too.But nowhere in that article
does it say the “persons” described in the language has to be a
citizen or that the census should collect information about citizenship. So let’s see how Trump’s friends on the Court try to justify
that change in the Constitution.
A country allowed to ask a citizenship question on their census form? Who in
his right mind would object to a country knowing which residents are citizens?
Seems to be a very rational and normal thing to ask; just like it was a few
Just tell them you are a citizen or in my case just refuse to answer the census.
@unrepentant.Another viewpoint that is just as easy to see is that this
will prevent abuse of the census by those who are in the US on an Undocumented
basis. The real question that needs answering is whether
undocumented immigrants are entitled to representation in Congress. But,
Congress needs to answer this. And they don’t seem willing to answer right
now. If they do answer it, then their answer can be challenged in the courts.
@Dan Maloy"Would love to hear from any liberal out there why
asking about citizenship on a national census is a bad idea. I want to hear
valid arguments, not just "because Trump wants it so I'm against
it"."Asked and answered (see my earlier post)"By the way, you can claim it's because people who are here illegally
"deserve" roads and schools like the rest of us..."Until
you posted it I have never heard such claims made. Can you show us where this
argument has been made?
Would love to hear from any liberal out there why asking about citizenship on a
national census is a bad idea. I want to hear valid arguments, not just
"because Trump wants it so I'm against it".By the way,
you can claim it's because people who are here illegally "deserve"
roads and schools like the rest of us but your argument is entirely invalid.
Citizens who pay taxes "deserve" roads and schools and other government
services precisely because they pay their taxes but how do you prove those here
illegally pay their fair share of taxes when they have no Social Security
number? And if they have a Social Security number then how did they obtain one
legally when they themselves are here illegally?And do you liberals
on the left feel like we, as Americans, should tell Mexico we have
"rights" to good schools and roads and other government services when we
are in Mexico? If not, why not?, because you claim that illegals here in
America "deserve" just about everything so why doesn't it work the
other way around?
@unrepentant progressive: "... the Conservative minority of this country
will ...hegemony over the rest of us."The country as a whole
leans slightly right of center. Slightly right. We are a nation that prefers
change to be modestly paced, orderly, and self-imposed rather than mandated from
afar. There is not a single, credible poll or study to suggest that
conservatives are a small minority, nor that liberals are any kind of
majority.The last 100 years of local, State, and federal elections
should persuade any who are open to data, honest with themselves, that we are a
centrist nation where neither liberal nor conservative can claim any long-term
majority.It is the urban, coastal, liberal minority (urban coastal
and liberal is a minority) that presumes to exert unrighteous dominion over
places they dismiss as "flyover country" and over peoples they deride as
"rednecks", "basketfull of deplorables", and "folks clinging
to their Bibles and guns."We have a constitution. If you find
it disagreeable--as you clearly do when it comes to religious freedom, RKBA,
private property, federalism, and limits on govt power--then propose amendments.
Or move to a socialist nation.
And adding the citizenship question will do what exactly? The Article 1, Section
2 does not state that, "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be
apportioned among the several States which may be included within this
Union, according to their respective Numbers of U.S. Citizens." And the
14th Amendment prohibits the allocation of seats in the House of Representatives
based on voter-eligible population alone, rather than total population.Unless there is a proposed amendment in the discussion to restrict
apportionment based on citizenship this is nothing more than an example of
placing the cart before the horse at best, and placating a constitutionally
ignorant voter base at worst.
Finally, some sanity.
@unrepentantRE: "A count used to parcel out Congressional seats and
Federal benefits"...---#1. Are all immigrants minorities?
That's an assumption. A racist assumption. People immigrate to the USA
from everywhere, every race.#2. Representation and fed benefits
should be based on citizen population, not the illegal population (who
can't vote and don't qualify for fed benefits).If you are
here illegally you don't qualify for federal benefits (welfare etc). You
also can't vote. We shouldn't allocate Congressional representatives
for population that can't vote, should we?We shouldn't
allocate welfare funds based on population who don't qualify for
welfare.We may need to allocate different types of funding to States
with large illegal immigrant populations. Not more welfare funds (they
don't qualify for welfare) but maybe funding for services they could
benefit from. Education, etc.We need to know how many residents are
citizens, and how many aren't. It doesn't keep anybody from voting.
They didn't qualify to vote to begin with. Did they?
RE: "asking citizenship on census"...---Why would it be
"Illegal" or "Unconstitutional" to ask a question about
citizenship on the census? We had that question on the census for a long time.
Was it "Illegal" back then? No. So why is it "illegal" now?The US Supreme Court's role is to determine if laws are
Constitutional or not. They do not decide if laws are "Moral". Only
if they are Constitutional.Google "About the Supreme Court |
United States Courts"...---Role"The Supreme Court
plays a very important role in our constitutional system of government-First, as the highest court in the land, it is the court of last resort for
those looking for justice-Second, due to its power of judicial review, it
plays an essential role in ensuring that each branch of government recognizes
the limits of its own power-Third, it protects civil rights and liberties
by striking down laws that violate the Constitution-Finally, it sets
appropriate limits on democratic government by ensuring that popular majorities
cannot pass laws that harm and/or take undue advantage of unpopular
minorities"...Only in the U.S. Is It Controversial for the
Census to Ask About Citizenship.
So glad we have two new trump appointees on the court, not liberals with no care
for the constitution like hilary would have nominated.“
despite evidence that millions of Hispanics and immigrants could
go uncounted.”News, or political opinion? Oh wait, it’s
the AP, so of course it’s the latter. and they don't present the
evidence, just opinion and theory"This is a solution in search
of a problem," Nothing wrong with planning ahead. Fail to plan and
plan to fail.“Census Bureau experts have concluded
”Who, what are their qualifications as
“experts”? again, empty, biased reporting by the AP.UnrepentThwart voting in GOP controlled states by those not authorized
to vote. There, I corrected your statement for you. You are welcome.Where was your concern when black panthers suppressed white voters in Philly
in 2010?Punish states with substantial minority populations? No
punishment that is not self-inflicted. Minorities are free to answer the census.
Well, it appears that the Conservative minority of this country will again
maintain their hegemony over the rest of us.The GOP majority on the
Supreme Court will probably rule in favor of this Trump'ian/GOP tactic to
abuse the census for political gain. That gain being an undercount of
minorities in the country for electoral benefits.It is bad enough
that the GOP has constantly thwarted minority voting in the various GOP
controlled states. Now the GOP wants to punish states with substantial minority
populations from a proper census count. A count used to parcel out
Congressional seats and Federal benefits.