Justices seem ready to OK asking citizenship on census

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  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    April 24, 2019 10:06 p.m.

    @unrepentant.
    Appreciate your comments. All I’m saying is that there is another reasonable argument to be had on this issue. Now, whether you want to acknowledge it as a reasonable viewpoint is up to you.

    But, another interesting aside is that most undocumented immigrants really couldn’t care less about the census or voting in the next election. Interestingly enough, they just want to be left alone.

    But, perhaps what undocumented immigrants want doesn’t really matter in America anymore. And, that might be the saddest part of all.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    April 24, 2019 10:50 a.m.

    @unrepentant progressive 9:30 am
    RE: "It is outrageous to think that immigrants, legal or otherwise, in this country do not share your enthusiasm and/or loyalty to this country"...
    ---
    Is it OK to think Conservatives don't share your enthusiasm and/or loyalty to this country? Because I hear comments to that effect every day. Are They "Inflammatory"?

    I never hear you call out those comments as "Inflammatory".

    Selective outrage?

    I agree it's a bad Assumption BTW. Both of them.

    ==

    RE: "After all, most of these immigrants had barriers thrown up at them to get in"...
    --
    you mean "Barriers"... like Walls/Fences/Border Patrol, etc?

    ==

    RE: "Most of them want to be here"...
    --
    Well that's a pretty obvious statement. But does just "Wanting" to be here make being here legal? Nope.

    What if I Want to be in your house? Doesn't make it legal, does it?

    ==

    RE: "And most of them will try to stay"...
    --
    That's pretty obvious too. What's the point?

    ===

    RE: "Does being born American give you some unique perspective and loyalty to the country"...
    ---
    Don't know about perspective. But it does give you something unique... Citizenship.

    I think loyalty is developed (over a lifetime)

  • RiDal Sandy, UT
    April 24, 2019 10:20 a.m.

    @unrepentant progressive:
    I specifically referred to "citizenship status". That would include illegals.
    There is no implication that "immigrants" don't share loyalty. But certainly we can question the loyalty of those who have entered illegally.
    So your attempt at manufactured indignation is just silly.
    I should probably disclose that I am married to an immigrant...a legal one, of course. Oh, yeah, and my adopted daughter is a legal immigrant.
    I know a lot more about our immigration system than I ever really wanted to, and I can assure you that it is not all that difficult to do things legally.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    April 24, 2019 9:55 a.m.

    Shaun
    Thank you for your efforts to have Utah under represented. You owe us all an apology.

    Unrepent
    And you’ve never posted an inflammatory comment? Be honest, at least with yourself.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    April 24, 2019 9:30 a.m.

    RiDal

    You claim: "how many (referring to immigrants) who may not share the same loyalty to our nation".

    It is outrageous to think that immigrants, legal or otherwise, in this country do not share your enthusiasm and/or loyalty to this country. After all, most of these immigrants had barriers thrown up at them to get in, legally or otherwise. Most of them want to be here. And most of them will try to stay.

    You probably were born here, and the hardest thing you had to do was be born to US citizens or residents. Does being born American give you some unique perspective and loyalty to the country?

    Your comment is inflammatory. And you know it.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    April 24, 2019 9:07 a.m.

    @Frozen Fractals 7:33
    RE: "Like using the census info to round up undocumented immigrants"...
    ---
    Has anyone suggested doing that? A little over the top don't ya think?

    ===

    @Edgar 7:01
    RE: "So let’s see how Trump’s friends on the Court try to justify that change in the Constitution"...
    ---
    A question about citizenship was on the Census before. Was it unconstitutional then?

    Why unconstitutional now, if it wasn't then? Did Constitution change?

    Google "When Did the United States Census Stop Asking About Citizenship - Snopes"...
    It was on the "Short Form" from 1890 through 1950. And the "Long Form" till 2010. Was that Unconstitutional? Or just if Trump does it?

    ===

    Shaun 5:16
    RE: "Just tell them you are a citizen or in my case just refuse to answer the census"...
    ---
    Or... be honest. And answer the question honestly. That's an option.

    Not answering the census may not be the solution you Assume. It's against the law. But if I'm in the country illegally... that's probably not a problem, I already justified doing illegal things if I feel I need to.

    I would suggest obeying the law. Even answering the questions honestly. Integrity is a thing you know.

  • RiDal Sandy, UT
    April 24, 2019 8:40 a.m.

    Any rational person recognizes that citizenship status on a USA census is perfectly rational, appropriate, and Constitutional.
    It is also vital to know how many citizens are here vs. how many who may not share the same loyalty to our nation. It is common sense.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    April 23, 2019 8:52 p.m.

    Vermonter

    You say: "this will prevent abuse of the census by those who are in the US on an Undocumented basis". In order for there to be some sort of crime or abuse as you suggest, please cite the instances that said abuse has occurred. And what harm you might have suffered from this act. Even more important, what rational Constitutional basis is there for undercounting American residents?

    Your toss out frivolous claim is akin to another Conservative claim of "voter fraud". As we all know the only voter fraud of consequence is the voter suppression that many GOP controlled states have perpetrated on residents of that state (North Carolina ring any bells?). All in the goal of suppressing minority representation.

    The current Justices on the Supreme Court are majority GOP ultra-Conservative jurists placed into this high office to do the bidding of their Conservative benefactors. One of those biddings was to suppress minority turn-out in both voting booths and census counts. The Koch brothers and their ilk have seen done what they have paid millions upon millions to see done.

    This is another national shame.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    April 23, 2019 7:33 p.m.

    Seat appropriation is based on total population. It is not based on citizens and doing that would be unconstitutional.

    However, the census includes various questions that have nothing to do with that, and this is in that vein. It does very much hinder the attempt to get an accurate count though since undocumented households are less likely to submit their census forms to be counted and that is a problem but not a constitution-violating one (something like using the census info to round up undocumented immigrants would be one).

  • Edgar Samaria, ID
    April 23, 2019 7:01 p.m.

    The Constitution says:

    “Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.”

    So we’ve grown in humanity as a nation and count all people as a whole person rather than specifying certIn people as 3/5 of a person. Or better said, we abolished slavery. And we’ve decided to let the natives of this country vote too.

    But nowhere in that article does it say the “persons” described in the language has to be a citizen or that the census should collect information about citizenship.

    So let’s see how Trump’s friends on the Court try to justify that change in the Constitution.

  • at long last. . . Kirksville , MO
    April 23, 2019 5:16 p.m.

    A country allowed to ask a citizenship question on their census form? Who in his right mind would object to a country knowing which residents are citizens? Seems to be a very rational and normal thing to ask; just like it was a few decades ago.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    April 23, 2019 5:16 p.m.

    Just tell them you are a citizen or in my case just refuse to answer the census. Problem solved.

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    April 23, 2019 5:11 p.m.

    @unrepentant.
    Another viewpoint that is just as easy to see is that this will prevent abuse of the census by those who are in the US on an Undocumented basis.

    The real question that needs answering is whether undocumented immigrants are entitled to representation in Congress. But, Congress needs to answer this. And they don’t seem willing to answer right now. If they do answer it, then their answer can be challenged in the courts.

  • my_two_cents_worth university place, WA
    April 23, 2019 5:04 p.m.

    @Dan Maloy

    "Would love to hear from any liberal out there why asking about citizenship on a national census is a bad idea. I want to hear valid arguments, not just "because Trump wants it so I'm against it"."

    Asked and answered (see my earlier post)

    "By the way, you can claim it's because people who are here illegally "deserve" roads and schools like the rest of us..."

    Until you posted it I have never heard such claims made. Can you show us where this argument has been made?

  • Dan Maloy Enid, OK
    April 23, 2019 4:08 p.m.

    Would love to hear from any liberal out there why asking about citizenship on a national census is a bad idea. I want to hear valid arguments, not just "because Trump wants it so I'm against it".

    By the way, you can claim it's because people who are here illegally "deserve" roads and schools like the rest of us but your argument is entirely invalid. Citizens who pay taxes "deserve" roads and schools and other government services precisely because they pay their taxes but how do you prove those here illegally pay their fair share of taxes when they have no Social Security number? And if they have a Social Security number then how did they obtain one legally when they themselves are here illegally?

    And do you liberals on the left feel like we, as Americans, should tell Mexico we have "rights" to good schools and roads and other government services when we are in Mexico? If not, why not?, because you claim that illegals here in America "deserve" just about everything so why doesn't it work the other way around?

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    April 23, 2019 3:46 p.m.

    @unrepentant progressive: "... the Conservative minority of this country will ...hegemony over the rest of us."

    The country as a whole leans slightly right of center. Slightly right. We are a nation that prefers change to be modestly paced, orderly, and self-imposed rather than mandated from afar. There is not a single, credible poll or study to suggest that conservatives are a small minority, nor that liberals are any kind of majority.

    The last 100 years of local, State, and federal elections should persuade any who are open to data, honest with themselves, that we are a centrist nation where neither liberal nor conservative can claim any long-term majority.

    It is the urban, coastal, liberal minority (urban coastal and liberal is a minority) that presumes to exert unrighteous dominion over places they dismiss as "flyover country" and over peoples they deride as "rednecks", "basketfull of deplorables", and "folks clinging to their Bibles and guns."

    We have a constitution. If you find it disagreeable--as you clearly do when it comes to religious freedom, RKBA, private property, federalism, and limits on govt power--then propose amendments. Or move to a socialist nation.

  • my_two_cents_worth university place, WA
    April 23, 2019 3:06 p.m.

    And adding the citizenship question will do what exactly? The Article 1, Section 2 does not state that, "Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which
    may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers of U.S. Citizens." And the 14th Amendment prohibits the allocation of seats in the House of Representatives based on voter-eligible population alone, rather than total population.

    Unless there is a proposed amendment in the discussion to restrict apportionment based on citizenship this is nothing more than an example of placing the cart before the horse at best, and placating a constitutionally ignorant voter base at worst.

  • Cougalum St. George, UT
    April 23, 2019 2:58 p.m.

    Finally, some sanity.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    April 23, 2019 1:22 p.m.

    @unrepentant
    RE: "A count used to parcel out Congressional seats and Federal benefits"...
    ---
    #1. Are all immigrants minorities? That's an assumption. A racist assumption. People immigrate to the USA from everywhere, every race.

    #2. Representation and fed benefits should be based on citizen population, not the illegal population (who can't vote and don't qualify for fed benefits).

    If you are here illegally you don't qualify for federal benefits (welfare etc). You also can't vote. We shouldn't allocate Congressional representatives for population that can't vote, should we?

    We shouldn't allocate welfare funds based on population who don't qualify for welfare.

    We may need to allocate different types of funding to States with large illegal immigrant populations. Not more welfare funds (they don't qualify for welfare) but maybe funding for services they could benefit from. Education, etc.

    We need to know how many residents are citizens, and how many aren't. It doesn't keep anybody from voting. They didn't qualify to vote to begin with. Did they?

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    April 23, 2019 12:07 p.m.

    RE: "asking citizenship on census"...
    ---
    Why would it be "Illegal" or "Unconstitutional" to ask a question about citizenship on the census? We had that question on the census for a long time. Was it "Illegal" back then? No. So why is it "illegal" now?

    The US Supreme Court's role is to determine if laws are Constitutional or not. They do not decide if laws are "Moral". Only if they are Constitutional.

    Google "About the Supreme Court | United States Courts"...
    ---
    Role
    "The Supreme Court plays a very important role in our constitutional system of government
    -First, as the highest court in the land, it is the court of last resort for those looking for justice
    -Second, due to its power of judicial review, it plays an essential role in ensuring that each branch of government recognizes the limits of its own power
    -Third, it protects civil rights and liberties by striking down laws that violate the Constitution
    -Finally, it sets appropriate limits on democratic government by ensuring that popular majorities cannot pass laws that harm and/or take undue advantage of unpopular minorities"...

    Only in the U.S. Is It Controversial for the Census to Ask About Citizenship.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    April 23, 2019 11:31 a.m.

    So glad we have two new trump appointees on the court, not liberals with no care for the constitution like hilary would have nominated.

    “…despite evidence that millions of Hispanics and immigrants could go uncounted.”

    News, or political opinion? Oh wait, it’s the AP, so of course it’s the latter. and they don't present the evidence, just opinion and theory

    "This is a solution in search of a problem,"
    Nothing wrong with planning ahead. Fail to plan and plan to fail.

    “Census Bureau experts have concluded …”

    Who, what are their qualifications as “experts”? again, empty, biased reporting by the AP.

    Unrepent
    Thwart voting in GOP controlled states by those not authorized to vote. There, I corrected your statement for you. You are welcome.

    Where was your concern when black panthers suppressed white voters in Philly in 2010?

    Punish states with substantial minority populations? No punishment that is not self-inflicted. Minorities are free to answer the census.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    April 23, 2019 11:17 a.m.

    Well, it appears that the Conservative minority of this country will again maintain their hegemony over the rest of us.

    The GOP majority on the Supreme Court will probably rule in favor of this Trump'ian/GOP tactic to abuse the census for political gain. That gain being an undercount of minorities in the country for electoral benefits.

    It is bad enough that the GOP has constantly thwarted minority voting in the various GOP controlled states. Now the GOP wants to punish states with substantial minority populations from a proper census count. A count used to parcel out Congressional seats and Federal benefits.