I have two children that wanted to go to BYU, had excellent qualifications, and
did not get in. Lying, saying you will live an Honor Code and not doing so, is
no different than paying $half a million and lying to get in. You took the
place of a worthy student that wanted to be there and was willing to play by the
Overall, I'm confused as to why people complain about being disciplined for
NOT honoring the code of conduct they signed as part of the agreement to attend
the school. It's a subsidized religious school. If you don't like
it, pay full price at a secular school.
james d. morrison - Sandy, UTApril 12, 2019 9:52 p.m.James, I
loved your comment! "For serious, repeat violators, instead of
suspending them, just charge them the non-subsidized rate. So many want to go
there for the cheap tuition at a top school but want to do so while doing
whatever they please."So true! People want tithing subsidized
education, without the "strings" attached. I almost agree 100% with
everything you said. But I worry that charging non-subsidized tuition rates, it
still encourages silence for less money out of pocket.
JaneB - Wilsonville, ORApril 12, 2019 9:09 p.m.RE: "Let
adults be adults. BYU and BYUI students don't need a babysitter. "Have you met any Freshmen recently? Um, yeah. Some do, thanks to barely
involved or too involved parents. (To be fair to freshmen, I've met some
great ones too. The not so great ones you sometimes end up reading about in the
local newspaper).Re: "Police should not be sharing info with the
honor code office.""Whether or not a student files a
complaint of alleged sexual misconduct or otherwise asks the school to take
action, where the school knows or reasonably should know of an incident of
sexual misconduct, the school must take steps to understand what occurred and to
respond appropriately."Now if you were law enforcement, don't you
"the school... reasonably should know", especially since the school is
legally bound by Title IX to provide a safe environment?(see September
2017 Q&A on Campus Sexual Misconduct at www.ed.gov)I have more
to say, but lack space.
@Jumpyman - Salt Lake City, UTApril 12, 2019 9:09 p.m."There is
nothing better than a cute girl coming up to you on Campus, starts talking like
she wants to get to know you, and then, after getting your name and phone
number, hands you a pink slip to go report at the honor code office because your
shorts are 1/2 an inch too short. This happened to me several years ago. I
don't know if that still goes on now, but that was pretty lame."Hey Jumpyman, you might want to try BYU-Idaho. You won't get any
pink slips for your shorts there. Of course, if you want to take your tests,
you'll have to wear pants. Oh, and shoes. Oh and shave. You don't have
to shave at BYU anymore, right? Wow, must be rough, bro.
@MoreMan - San Diego, CA'April 15, 2019 9:52 a.m.This
speaks volumes... "University administrators didn't attend the
rally"'MoreMan, your context is very limited and somewhat
incorrect. In contrast to your quoted section, a little further along in the
article you read:"The director of our Honor Code Office has been
meeting with students since last Thursday."Speaks volumes,
doesn't it?Continuing, we read:'"These
conversations have been very constructive, as students have shared with us their
concern for certain processes within the Honor Code Office," the statement
continues. "In some cases, these concerns do not reflect current
practices;'From this we learn:1) These students are getting
1-on-1 discussion with the right people, and their voice is being heard2)
An organization's power over undesirable outcomes only extends so far. That
goes for BYU or any organization. Sometimes what people are unhappy about
"[does] not reflect current practices" of an organization. Its like
getting mad at sand being blown in your, when its really the wind's fault
for blowing it there in the first place.
This speaks volumes... "University administrators didn't attend the
I'm a BYU alum, active member the the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints and I do love the Y for the great experience I had there. But if I would
have been upset enough to spend days and days protesting and being so upset that
I couldn't sleep, surely I would have transferred to another school where I
wouldn't have to worry about my problems with the honor code. No hard
feelings, just a parting of ways.
@ Cougar Forever: I am quite serious in my previous remarks. Thank you for
understanding that I consider this whole affair a tempest in a teapot by
emotionally immature individuals who think public demonstrations amount to
anything constructive other than personal aggrandizement.I tend to
agree with and support the opinions voiced to the participants that if they
really don’t like the enforcement, the rules, or the management, they are
free to enroll in another fine university of their choice. The
management of BYU is a trust or stewardship and as such does not answer to the
students. As mature seasoned adults they are trusted and empowered to
administer the university according to the policies and procedures approved by
their superiors. I believe they condescend to permit such demonstrations with
some degree of patience and humor.
@Cougar mom - "Please stop and think before you make the statement “If
you don’t like BYU’s Honor Code, just go to a different
school.” Positive social change comes about when people question the
status quo. I am 100% sure people made similar comments when Ruby Bridges
enrolled at an all white school in 1960."Your comment is not
equivalent here. She was going to a public school that did not allow African
Americans to attend because of their race. BYU does not disallow
people to attend because of race. And BYU is not a public school. The only
reason for its existence is the honor code and values BYU promotes. You strip
that away and it is no different than any other institution and has no reason to
exist. Unlike Ruby, anyone who wants to abide by the honor code that
meets other fair and equal entry requirements can attend. Quite different than
I don't get it. If you don't like the honor code, don't go to
BYU. That is what makes BYU... well, BYU. Don't mess with the code, just
find another school.Let those who really want to live in an
environment that honors that code do so.
The first student protest allowed on BYU campus, I thought I'd never see
the day. This is the biggest "earthquake" in Utah County since Coke
became available to buy on campus.
Please stop and think before you make the statement “If you don’t
like BYU’s Honor Code, just go to a different school.” Positive
social change comes about when people question the status quo. I am 100% sure
people made similar comments when Ruby Bridges enrolled at an all white school
in 1960. I am a BYU alum with 3 kids holding degrees from BYU and I believe
strongly that BYU can and should do better with their honor code office.
The honor starts when a student selects to apply for admission to BYU. The
standards are very clear. There are many fine universities that have different
standards and students can select one of these if they have concerns about the
standards at BYU. There are many who would like to attend BYU and live the
standards but can't get in because it is full. The hundreds who seem to
have a problem with the Y are free to select another university better suited to
For those of you bantering to disband the HCO because the students are all
adults and we should trust them to turn themselves in I have a question. What if
an underclass-man comes home to an apartment the stinks of weed and all the
upperclassmen have endulged? What is he to do? What about a roommate who wakes
up to find his roommate sleeping with a girl in his room and the girl has even
taken a shower in their apartment and used the innocent roommate’s towel
to dry off? Who does he talk to? After all, he’s come to BYU with the
expectation that others came for the same reason he did which is typically to
avoid the behavior found on secular college campuses. I would
certainly hope these infractions are worthy of reporting to someone who has
authority to remove the students from campus. A student should not be
considered a “snitch”, “rat” or whatever you want to
call them for wanting to live with others who hold and live the same big
standards. And last time I checked, a Bishop’s authority relating to
school enrollment is that of giving an ecclesiastical endorsement a couple
times a year. No more and no less. And minor infractions should be
treated as such.
@Orem Parent wrote,"Looking at the photos I am seeing a majority
of those aren't even students. Just another chance for the anti-BYU crowd
to show up and get some press. Sad."I assume you know all
33,000 students and can tell which ones in the photos are not students.
Correct?Is it possible that some in the photo are students who are
not following the dress codes?
Some of the comments here show people who are out of touch with the honor code
that has existed since the late 1970s.Beyond that, the claims that
"curfew violations" and other "minor offenses" are treated the
same as law of chastity, disturbing the peace, word of wisdom or academic
integrity violations is just false.Tobegin with BYU has not had a
proactive curfew for any students since the 1970s, only visiting hours.There are two results of this. First there is no visiting in cars clear
regulation. This is an oversight that needs to be rectified. At least if we want
to cut down on LofC issues we want to better address that issue.Visiting hours only mean guests of the opposite sex must leave by a given
time. It says nothing of when you have to be home. That said I am
remembering an egregious 2002 case where the rapist tried to argue based on when
the date started sexual consent was inplied. It is a horrible argument but it
might not hurt to warn our daughters that nof all men have good intentions and
that they need to consider this in planning dates. If they are starting a date
late because of work schedules make this very clear to the man.
The honor code is a system to build community. Asking people to proactively
encourage positive behavior is what we do all the time and what the honor code
does.Those who use loaded words like "rat", "spy"
and "tattle" would evodently prefer disorder and disruption.There is probably a need to reform the honor code. It probably needs stronger
provisions to remove people for inapropriate behaviors online and it needs a
clear ban on any form of gambling.I also think there has in the past
been too much patience and liniency with those who enfage in extramarital sex.
Given BYU's penchant for pharisaical rules it is easy to see how the honor
code can have unintended consequences. Other schools, even secular schools,
have honor codes but without an Honor Code Office. Enforcement belongs to the
institution, not an "office". The fact that BYU's Honor
Code Office has any exposure at all says someone is doing something wrong.
BYU's Honor Code Office shouldn't have the stigma of the IRS to
motivate compliance. BYU's students are adults, if an Honor Code Office is
necessary then BYU's Admissions Office should be reorganized.
Show these kids the exit. Others more appreciative of the privilege to go to
school there will take their place.
Good for them
imp7What you taking about brother? What your saying don't make
sense.These students knew the honor code when they signed up. If you
don't like it,then go to another school. It's as simple as that.
"Blah blah blah... when I was at BYU!""I haven't been a
student for a long time, but...""I never went to BYU,
but...""Back when my son attended BYU..."There is
a strong disconnect between the average commentator on this article and what is
actually going on at BYU. I heard about the protest/rally yesterday morning. I
didn't join because I've never had an issue with the Honor Code. The
Universe reported that it was peaceful and sanctioned by the university. As a
current student, I will add a few points to clarify and correct some points
propagated by readers here:1. This is not just about the office. Many of
the protesters want to change the Honor Code. This rally coincides with a
change.org petition to remove certain requirements about dress and grooming and
same-sex attraction/behavior. Saying "they're not interested in
changing the Honor Code, just the office" is patently false.2.
Students protest because the university listens. Whether or not they do anything
is different, but complaints, such as those in 2016 regarding sexual assault,
have led to changes in the past.
Asking students to rat and spy on each other and turn each other in is sick to a
large extent. On the other hand, people have a choice not to go to religious
universities where the rules will always be heavily slanted towards the church
who owns them. This is what you sign up for at religious universities. It is a
good school but not the only one on earth to attend.
Looking at the photos I am seeing a majority of those aren't even students.
Just another chance for the anti-BYU crowd to show up and get some press.Sad.Stay strong BYU. You are the light on the hill we need
in this world.
As a couple of other people have mentioned, this hard line approach of
threatening to kick a student out of school for very insignificant issues like
dress code, curfew, breaking minor laws etc. often does more harm than good.
Why turn someone against the church just so you can nail her for wearing shorts?
New enforcement standards that strengthen both sides of this issue
should not be that difficult to come up with. The Student advisory and support
panel is a good idea. That way when a girl says "he told me that I had to
put out or he would not take me home" her fellow students can tell her that
is no excuse.
150 or so students protested (others weren't even students). Out of a
population of 33,000. That's like 1/2 a percent. This is a non-event. I think it's fair to say a half a
percent of BYU students have always grumbled about the honor code. Big whoop.
The media spotlight is making it a lot bigger deal than it is.
Sad on so many levels...I've seen some of the Insta posts (campaign), and
wonder how true/credible all of it is. I also see so much courage for those who
post and protest. I am a BYU alum. I have seen enough to know that the way
things were when I was in college are very different than in today's world.
BYU IS a private, LDS Church run school, so it IS their prerogative to have an
HC. I guess it's true that, if people don't like it, they CAN leave.
However, to respond so flippantly is also how the Pharisees
responded, worrying more about the letter of the law and their elitism, rather
than the spirit of the law. President Nelson has encouraged us to drop the
letter of the law/checklist mentality and focus our energy on the spirit of the
law. He has also recently been updating many policies that closer reflect that,
as we usher in Christ's coming. The HC & HCO dealings seem to go
completely counter to the messages we listened to at General Conference. BYU
represents the LDS Church; Christ would be handling all of the HC violations
with love for each student, not by using scare tactics. I think that is the
crux of all of this-not the HC, but the way HCO handles students.
I was confused until I talked to some students. Fear after sexual assault
happens at times when the perpetrator threatens you because you had alcohol,
drugs, were in other violation. Knowing that you will be kicked out of BYU. They
hold this over the heads of their victims. Or you know you cannot report it
because of any infraction of the Honor Code is involved. Perhaps the infraction
was a one time offense, maybe you are working with your bishop BUT once the HCO
gets involved a victim is punished. Unfortunately, the fear of the HCO
has also been used as a form of "blackmail" or to get rid of those you
don't want around. (Very Mccarthy like) It is so much more than
someone not wanting to shave. I am proud of these students who
organized this. They state that they want the Honor Code, they want to uphold
the Honor Code BUT they want the HCO to have some checks and balances and to be
more transparent! They love BYU and don't want to change the uniqueness of
the Honor Code. They just don't want an Orwelian Big Brother, they want it
to be administered as their Big Brother would. The true Light of the World. I
hope the Administration listens to these thoughtful students.
Once one reaches the age and maturity of attending a university, most of their
moral code should be well embedded into their being. As a graduate of two
secular universities out of state, I needed to exert my independence and not
have mama and daddy watching over me. For me to attend a university and not be
able to exert my own moral compass would have made me very unhappy and more
distracted from what I was learning in all of my classes. I'm sure that
BYU works well for many, but for those that were like me, would have felt the
weight of eyes hovering on me at a time I needed to make personal decisions for
myself and develop my adult self, while not feeling short-changed. There are
plenty of other fine universities where you can practice your faith.Like any religious institution, all must change with the times. I, too,
applaud the folks who wanted their voices to be heard and the Church should
acknowledge this. And, like the issues once ignored, but now being addressed at
the General Conference, these changes will slowly evolve. We can only
Thank you DN for shining light on this uncompassionate policy at BYU. It is time
to do away with such judgmental and devoid of love policies like the "Honor
Code". Lets do away with these hurtful, barbaric, patriarchal policies, that
have led to the destruction of so many lives. Time for a policy that would
reflect the love, mercy, and tolerance of Jesus Christ.
Impartial7,Thanks for your response to my comment. Perhaps you can
spot the irony inherent in a group of protesters complaining about an office
that has used anonymous complaints as the grounds for follow-up
investigations...while the protesters rely on anonymous complaints without any
follow-up investigation into their veracity.I suppose my follow-up
question to your comment is, "Can you name any concrete examples when the
Honor Code Office has received an anonymous tip and then imposed a final
punishment on a student (e.g., expulsion) without even attempting an
investigation into the tip?" This is how due process operates. If a student
chooses not to attend their appointment and share their side of the story,
that's their choice, but it will lead to a decision being made based on
whatever other information can be gathered during the investigation.It's little wonder that foreign governments view social media as a great
opportunity for influence. When an increasing portion of the population is
willing to accept anonymous online comments as final truth without any
additional investigation whatsoever, it makes it very easy to get people to
support pretty much any cause.
My story...When I made a decision to go to BYU years ago, I made a
decision to do whatever I was asked to do in terms of all the regulations and
rules.I had no problems with the HCO or anyone else for that
matter.BYU was the right place for me to be a that time in my life.
BYU Sports Nut,Speaking as a current student, I've had around a
dozen roommates or so over the last few years. Only one of them has ever come
close to being a snitch on perceived inappropriate behavior, and he would have
done the same thing regardless of where he was. The "snitch culture" you
speak of is overblown.Secondly, I hear the complaint about BYU being
to hard to get into quite frequently. There are 30,000 undergraduates here.
That's more than every university in Utah except for UVU, and it
doesn't count the 20,000 or so who attend BYU-I. If BYU started accepting
every student with a B average and a mid-20s ACT score, they would be forced to
hold upwards of 50,000 students, which is not practical with the current housing
situation in Provo or the school's infrastructure. The creation of BYU-I, I
suspect, was largely influenced by the inability to accommodate more students
here. At the end of the day, being owned by the Church does not make BYU immune
to the laws of supply and demand.
Don't like the HC? Go somewhere else. BYU rocks because its students are
serious about living a Christ-like life.
The Honor Code or a simpler predecessor to it were in place when I went there in
the 60s. Now having read much of the code, there now appears to be a lot of
rather juvenile additions to it. Grooming standards are good but to get lost in
picayune details, such as no mustaches or beards, super detailed quibbles about
the length of skirts, short etc. are applied by Pharisaical souls.What ever happened to the ideal? - The letter of the law killeth but the
spirit giveth life.I admit I was older than most when I went to BYU,
having spent 5 years in the military as an officer and 2 years on a mission. I
was an adult and expected to be treated like one.My biggest "run
in" was calling out a Religion professor who made some comments to a young
lady about keeping her knees together if she insisted on sitting in the front
row. I told him he had a dirty mind. Whoopsie!! I attended on a
"hearing" and was given a dressing down.As I said the Honor
Code has grown to be overkill. Tone it down.
Chummley - MISSION VIEJO, CAAs short and to the point as possible,
I'll try to give you an honest answer:There is an HC to go to
the temple: 1. Temple recommend (consequences in this life). 2. Father's judgements (consequences in the after life). The following exist, are required, because we live in a fallen world:There are consequences to our behavior, in this life and the next.We must make choices and experience consequences to grow, learn, to
become like Father. .At BYU, limited space, limited time.BYU has a mission.Choices, judgement are required to achieve that
mission.With limited resources, acceptance and continued attendance
at BYU requires comparisons between people. When a student is
accepted, many are turned away.To achieve a mission, comparisons,
judging the relative value of things (students and the school), is a
requirement.Students must chose and experience the consequences.BYU must chose and experience the consequences.
I agree to those who are saying "You signed the honor code agreement you
knew what you were getting into" I also want to point out that NO ONE should
be sexually assaulted. Yes, how students are being treated by the HCC needs to
be looked at. Just as big of a concern is what is being taught at BYU. Gospel
truths are not, if you have a child attending or plan on attending in the
future. Know this, more and more students are leaving BYU either early or after
they graduate with no longer having a testimony. Don't believe me? Check
it out yourself.
For those of you who are suggesting that all students need to do is be perfect
and there will be no issues with the honor code office, get some perspective.
That is like saying that all that you need to do is live sinless and you will
have no trouble with God. After all, we chose to come to earth and we knew what
we signed up for. Yet we make mistakes. Every. Single. One of us. We were just
reminded by President Nelson that EVERYONE needs to repent. Shouldn't
students feel loved and strengthened and encouraged to do better and be better?
Instead it feels more like a system run by Pharisees, counting how many steps
you take on Sunday.
"Hawkeye79 - Iowa City, IAApril 13, 2019 8:37 a.m.Does anyone
believe that all of the anonymous Honor Code Office complaints on social media
are 100% true? If not, how do you know which are true and which are false? Do you believe that any true anonymous comments included all relevant
information? Or is it possible that they omitted key facts to better advance the
site's stated agenda? I'm all about discussing and diagnosing
policy, but can we at least start with a foundation that is more than
unsubstantiated comments from unknown actors?"Can you see the
irony in your post and your position? That's exactly what many students are
protesting. Getting disciplined for something they didn't do, just ratted
out by an anonymous source. No specifics by the HC Office, just unsubstantiated
comments. Read the story about the athlete that was disciplined for supposedly
getting his girlfriend pregnant, based on anonymous tattlers. Turns out after a
long probation period, the HC dropped the allegation (because it was never
true). Students lives are being ruined, not by their actions, but by
arbitrary and punitive actions on the whim of an honor code office person.
I am confused not having seen the HC is it listed in a manner that describes
certain actions are acceptable and others are not with a described action for
the item that is violated and this form is easy to understand and I agree to
said constraints, would that be a correct understanding of said form. then why
do we seam to have a miss understanding here. please explain in easy to
understand language of the day
it has this has nothing to do with integrity it has everything to do with the
integrity of the Honor code office and how they enforce it might you would be
that if you commit one rape or sexual assault you're out. End of story and
you encourage the victim to go tell the police and to press charges no matter
Why would there be fear over violating the honor code if you are sexually
assaulted?Elizabeth Smart was repeatedly raped and she was still
able to serve a mission. The church didn't consider that a violation of
the law of chastity.If you are forced to do sexual acts that
isn't a violation of the law of chastity.
Yes, the honor code can and should go beyond temple recommend requirements at
times, and yes, compliance changes with enforcement. For example, consider the
common honor code violation of a young man being in a womens' apartment
very late at night. The rule against it still seems smart even though it goes
beyond temple recommend requirements. And if there were no enforcement of the
rule, do you really think that there wouldn't be an increase in breaking
the rule? Is that really what we want?
I didn’t go to BYU, but I grew up in Utah and I am familiar with the honor
code. I am confused by what these students are protesting. It seems like they
want to be “heard” and “understood” while only telling
half the story. If you want to have a dialogue or inspire change then you have
to be clear and unambiguous in your free speech. Based on the
comments I’ve heard surrounding this issue, one would think that there are
simultaneously students being kicked out of school because they have a 5
o’clock shadow or their shorts are 1/2 inch too short and that there are
lots of known rapists prowling around the campus.Let’s be
honest. You were told to shave or asked not to wear your book bag in a way that
draws attention to your breasts and you recoiled in embarrassment but that was
the end of it, or you slept with someone and you are being disciplined, but you
think your situation is sooo nuanced and the HCO just doesn’t see it the
same way. Making such willfully ambiguous arguments is immature and
ineffective. You instantly lose credibility with the reasonable but skeptical
people you need to persuade. What is the actual policy you want to change?
My son walked in his BYU graduation even though he was short a couple of
religion credits. He went back to take those classes by correspondence later,
but because of his activities based on retaliating against the judgments of
other church members, which I don't condone, he was hauled before the BYU
honor folks to account for his actions. I went with him. Still, he was denied
his diploma after completing his credits. It's been several years and he
still hasn't received it. He was once my most spiritual child. Now
he's my most worldly, (and my most financially successful in his own
business). He is further away from the gospel of Jesus Christ than he has every
been. Good job, Honor folks.
Changes in the church have been abundant lately, and changes in applying
BYU's honor code is no exception. The Book of Mormon has examples of being
"The real issue at BYU is that most normal, traditional kids cannot get in
there. BYU caters to those with high ACT scores and 4.0 GPAs."Universities are just like big businesses always looking out to get incentives
and one of them is the non-resident (out of State) tax incentives.
"matman - Provo, UTApril 13, 2019 4:19 a.m.Hey I know how you
can attend BYU and live without fear. Just live the Honor Code and you
shouldn't have fear. It's that simple."If you took
some time to understand the issues you'd learn a few things;1. They
don't fear the honor code. They fear the honor code office and
associates.2. Students living the honor code are still being interrogated
and investigated. One female protester said she was hauled into the HC office
and was confronted with a Tweet that she "liked" (no mention of the
subject) in High School. They also harangued her over a picture on Instagram
that they deemed immodest. Again, taken and posted while she was in high
school.She did nothing that violated the honor code while in college.3. The Honor Code office is behaving like the Stasi. They spend countless
hours trying to dig up "dirt" on innocent kids. They place them on
probation, with the threat of suspension for things they did before attending
BYU. That's not fair or honest. There are hundreds, if not
thousands of stories like those. I highly doubt the people in the HC office
could withstand the same scrutiny they place on students.
As a parent who had children graduated from BYU, if the honor code was a problem
for them, they would have been XYZU alums instead of BYU. Not that I would have
force it on them, but integrity was a huge driver in our distant relationships
while the rest of our family lived in Fairbanks, Alaska and they were away in
Provo, Utah. They knew when they signed on to something, the expectation was,
they live with it. Life is not fair. In case these students have
forgotten, there are hundreds of schools with no honor code out there. Also,
there are thousands of students who are dying to come to BYU and happily abide
by the school’s Honor Code.
"They basically want there to be no enforcement of the honor code"Categorically false.
Are these changes a slippery slope?
Does anyone believe that all of the anonymous Honor Code Office complaints on
social media are 100% true? If not, how do you know which are true and which are
false? Do you believe that any true anonymous comments included all
relevant information? Or is it possible that they omitted key facts to better
advance the site's stated agenda? I'm all about discussing
and diagnosing policy, but can we at least start with a foundation that is more
than unsubstantiated comments from unknown actors?
"Just have the integrity to live the agreement you signed up for when
getting to have the Church subsidize your education---- and then you will have
exactly zero involvement with the Honor Code Office"Unless an
anonymous tipster accuses you of something that you didn't do and delays
your graduation by a semester, which happened to my last supervisor.
For those that say nobody is questioning the honor code itself, I say take a
look at the pictures of the rally, and the comments. I saw pictures of signs
demanding allowing LGBT dating on campus, comments protesting the rules on
grooming, etc. Regardless, even if the only issue were enforcement,
reduced enforcement means reduced deterrance, which would lead to more
violations, so the value of the honor code itself is again a central issue to
The problem with the HCO is that it adds a very unhealthy layer to the
repentance process. It is already a crap shoot what will happen when you repent
depending upon your Bishop. But this extra layer of unnecessary enforcement and
punishment is such a relic that I truly can’t believe it still exists
today. Those uncomfortable with these kids speaking up are part of the problem
of a voiceless, rigid, top down, obedience driven hierarchy that is driving LDS
youth away in droves.
BYU Sports Nut said: "...which quite honestly makes BYU not quite as cool as
it formerly was."Just to be clear... BYU never has had any
cool.Now to the issue at hand... I truly believe in the Honor Code.
I believe all who attend BYU or any Church-run school should do their very best
to live by it. I also know humans are not perfect and make mistakes. This
includes the employees of the HCO.The Honor Code never needs to be
changed. Adjustments have, and continue to be made in the enforcement of the
Honor Code. The Honor Code is a contractual agreement between the student and
the school. That makes it different than a Church covenant. However, the same
love, concern, and understanding needs to be applied to the repentant student as
a Bishop would offer.
There are many issues here: 1. A few BYU police officers misused the
criminal record system for enforcing the Honor Code. The State of Utah and BYU
has already investigated, identified and made corrective actions. 2. The action of the Utah Dept. of Public Safety on BYU is unprecedented, if
the state does go forward to revoke BYU Police certification/authority it will
open the door to a massive lawsuit which will be BYUs only option. There is
absolutely zero reason for BYU Police to lose their certification. The Utah
Dept. of Public Safety needs to understand if they revoke the certification it
will bring a major spotlight on their department3. Students need to
realize they are getting a subsidized education and the Honor Code is necessary
because who owns and operates BYU, a major Church. Many similar private
universities have similar codes of behavior for students, faculty and staff.
The Honor Code will remain and enforcing the Honor Code will remain, the methods
of enforcement need to change and it appears BYU is already making necessary
So you have an honor code but should have no enforcement? The Temple has an
honor code. It’s our Bishop and our Stake President, if you’re not
worthy you don’t get a Temple recommend. And if a violation comes to the
Bishop or Stake presidents attention you can loose your recommend. Some people
want a world of laws with no penalties. That’s not Gods way! God has
laws and there are penalties affixed!!!
As usual, many protestors not even current students; and an apparent majority
with an ulterior motive, not even sure why they are there, or rubber-necking.
Using familiar tricks to look bigger than they are.I don't have
a dog in this fight. As a very spiritual return missionary I took one look at
the Honor Code 30 years ago and never thought of BYU again. I had no interest in
having my life controlled to that degree after just completing missionary
service. Then again, I could read. Righteous children made different
decisions and received excellent educations. A private institution
should do what it wants. Those lecturing us often remind us not to dictate
morality to them - perhaps those threatening to enforce a phony government
defined morality as a condition of funding might consider. Except the true
motive is not to reform but to destroy.
When students apply to BYU, they know what the rules are....if you don’t
like the Honor Code...then don’t go to BYU. Seems simple. To protest
AFTER you have been accepted as a student seems kind of silly to me.
I agree with Nan on this one. What is the protest? Why is it a protest?There are others I agree with as well RE heavy-handedness of the honor code. I
attended both BYU and BYUI (it was known as Ricks College then) and found the
difference amazing. BYUI is more like a child care center with their insipid and
controlling approach to the honor code. They really need to loosen up. As to enforcement, if the infraction is egregious, then do something. If
it's a minor infraction, big fat deal. Most minor infractions are not worth
the hassle.The comparison of temple recommend and honor code is
quite an interesting one. Obviously, the school must concern itself with
cheating and other like behaviors.My last question (for this
posting): if it's OK to attend the temple with a beard, why is it not OK to
attend (or teach, even as online adjunct professor) with the same?
What, exactly, are the dissatisfied students expecting? Resistance to change,
especially from the bottom, is what authoritarian systems do. If they expect
some influence and autonomy, they should be at some other school.
If I am living the standards of the honor code, I don’t need to fear its
enforcement. I can trust that if someone was to investigate my behavior, I would
be able to show my honorable actions are in full compliance. Those
protesting appear to be wanting no enforcement or a relaxed enforcement,
negating the purpose for the Honor Code and what makes BYU what it is. And of
course, a few promoting LGBTQ lifestyles - which members hijack any rally or
event to protest for additional exposure. If you want to go to BYU
without an honor code enforcement, go to Weber State.
The Honor Code office was in the student handbook when they signed on, and in
their student agreements. In fact, there are several pages of student material
that cover the HCO. If a student doesn't think they can abide by the HC
then it's time for them to start "adulting" and decline to attend
BYU. No one is forcing them to attend. They can give up that spot to the
literally thousands of others that are not only supportive of an HC, but
genuinely excited to be involved in a school that still adheres to one.
Well, I for one just got 'educated'I saw one of the girls
in the pictures with this article has a protest sign which reads "We are
tired of being emotionally derfed by the HCO"Not being a
Millennial, I had to look up what 'derfed' means.Yes, well
upon learning that, I am so very sorry that my tithing dollars go to help
support people like her at BYU....( instead of the over 200 college
age Church members I know in five Third World countries who so very much more
deserve to be at BYU than she does)
Hey I know how you can attend BYU and live without fear. Just live the Honor
Code and you shouldn't have fear. It's that simple.
Many commentors here seem upset and say some do not understand the issue at
hand, such as Linda Mason who said: "No one....none of these students
or previous students are protesting the honor code. The honor code itself in not
their issue. They are protesting how the honor code is being enforced. From
their personal experiences one can tell many have suffered life altering very
traumatizing effects related to how their supposed infraction was
handled."And those of us on the other side are saying:If
you don't want to feel upset and 'traumatized' by how your
infraction is handled by the University, then don't think you are above the
Honor Code and commit infractions against it!So simple.Just have the integrity to live the agreement you signed up for when getting
to have the Church subsidize your education---- and then you will have exactly
zero involvement with the Honor Code Office.
Certainly honor needs to be restored----but it is by the ones who keep breaking
the Honor Code or those who don't think it should apply to them, not
I don’t know the exact truthful way they handle code violations but here
is a simple solution: if you don’t like the Honor Code, go to another
school. There are a lot of colleges out there.The reason why I
don’t like BYU isn’t the concept of it but the students who go there
and complain about it.
Self-policing??? Are you kidding? College students!Consider female student
who wanted to sleep in her own bed, but the roommate had a boyfriend sleeping
over. After telling the roommate this is wrong, an infringement on her privacy
and they blew her off, what recourse did she have? According to some, that would
be spying or tattling. Consider the 1,000s of rejected applicants to
BYU who wanted to live the honor code (it is not difficult), but, despite a high
GPA and ACT score, couldn't get in. Those refusing to live the Honor Code
should have some honor and leave voluntarily so those wishing to attend and live
the Honor Code can do so.Last...beards and grooming are NOT moral
issues but are branding issues. Every company and organization has a right to
establish their brand and insist employees/attendees, those subsidized heavily
by the sponsoring institution (every BYU student), act and dress in accordance
with their brand. IBM insisted even repairmen/women wear blue suits and be
cleanly groomed. Welcome to reality, students.
I love BYU and respect its right to hold students to a higher standard. However, like the changes made within the Church this year which are
designed to help us focus on the higher law, this should apply to the HCO. I hope positive change comes from these conversations.
I few points I believe these students are forgetting/don't understand:1. I, like thousands of other BYU grads, continue to support the school
with our tithing dollars so these protesting students can have one of the best
college educations per dollar in the US.2. 51% of those who applied to
BYU, DID NOT get accepted. I'm sure they would be happy to trade places
with one of these protesters without complaining about the Honor Code.3.
These students don't realize that life isn't fair, and sometimes well
meaning people make mistakes which doesn't mean the system is broke. If you
feel that BYU is "unjust and not applying the Atonement etc...," boy,
are you in for a disappointing surprise about life when you leave Happy
Valley.4. Maybe these 200 students need to transfer to another school.
There are lots of schools that welcome "diversity," in the form of
protests against virtually any rule, law, or requirement.5. Finally, I
strongly suggest these students remember BYU's motto, "Enter to Learn,
Go forth to Serve." It doesn't say "Enter to Protest, Go forth to
@Strider303 "This is such a first world problem." "But I think if the students really think they have a legitimate gripe
they would pool their money, hire an attorney to write up their concerns in a
coherent format and present it to the appropriate authorities requesting a
meeting to discuss the item(s) detailed on the document. Otherwise my impression
this is more of a stunt to garner attention for the participants than results
for a cause." You're kidding, right? Otherwise, you have provided an example of one of the most arrogantly
dismissive and demeaning comments I have seen. I have no
connections with anyone participating in this protest and usually side with
"authority" in such situations, but the suggestion that "... this is
more of a stunt to garner attention for the participants than results for a
cause" insultingly minimizes the courage that a number of students displayed
in making public very painful and embarrassing events.
I would want an honor code office that is strict rather than soft.You learn very little when there are no consequences.As a former
BYU grad, I never had reason to be in the HC office. The rules are pretty
simple and easy to follow!My observation is that the honor code is
pretty lax. Students wear clothing which were very inappropriate in the
seventies.Yes! There may be some who occassionally lack the skills
with enforcing the rules but it's still good to have.For those
who are offended and upset of the rules you once agreed to live by, there are
thousands of other places to go and there are thousands wanting entrance into
BYU because of the honor code.For many, the honor code is very much
desired. Let's not make excuses for changes.
The honor code itself isn’t the problem, It’s the inconsistent
enforcement. Harsh penalties for some while others are not even required by
their bishops to report to the honor code office for the same infraction. Those
who self report are treated poorly. The Lord forgives, BYU may or may not.
I am a BYU grad, but from so long ago that perhaps that doesn't even
matter. After reading the article and the comments, I am really confused about
the protest. What is the policy regarding sexual assault? What is happening to
motivate such a protest? Perhaps others understand the issue, but I needed
better background to grasp the problem.
I don’t understand the rally. The HCO was already listening and
dialoguing. I also think the students need to be more informed how the HCO
works. It’s been demonized the past few weeks with half truth stories or
The Honor Code office has for years created a snitch culture amongst roommates
at BYU. It is time for that to stop. The real issue at BYU is that
most normal, traditional kids cannot get in there. BYU caters to those with high
ACT scores and 4.0 GPAs. This in and of itself lowers athletic attendance and
brings an intellectual type of kid which quite honestly makes BYU not quite as
cool as it formerly was. It also breeds a student body who thinks they know
better than the board of trustees. BYU needs to allow for a better
mix of students. If the kid who works hard but only gets a 24 on his ACT and a B
average in high school were allowed to attend along with a few lower and few
higher, BYU would be a much better place than it is today.
I just had a brief discussion/debate with three other BYU alums. The “if
you don’t like having your behavior scrutinized for adherence to the honor
code then don’t attend BYU” view was expressed as was the view that
reform is needed because of the “police state”-like atmosphere at
BYU and potential for problems if you report sexual assault without having an
unblemished record yourself.An argument was made that those
protesting are disrespecting “the unwritten order of things” as
outlined by Elder Packer in a 1996 talk and that it would be within BYU’s
purview to dismiss these students. In our day, such a protest would have been
unthinkable.The Honor Code is necessary to make BYU what it is.
However, @Jumpyman, @caleby and @JaneB make good points about the juvenility
that sometimes is fostered at BYU. There are undeniable positives to attending
BYU. But, having done graduate work at a large, "name brand", secular
university as a comparison, I have to say that the social atmosphere at BYU was
like going back to junior high school.Will BYU acquiesce to student
demands or draw a line in the sand and stick to its traditional
“top-down” approach? It will be interesting to see.
This is such a first world problem. If the purpose of this
afternoon frolic on the quad was to raise awareness of some perceived injustice,
I guess it works. I am now aware.But I think if the students really
think they have a legitimate gripe they would pool their money, hire an attorney
to write up their concerns in a coherent format and present it to the
appropriate authorities requesting a meeting to discuss the item(s) detailed on
the document. Otherwise my impression this is more of a stunt to garner
attention for the participants than results for a cause.
I'm shaking my head at how many comments on this thread indicate total mis
understanding if this issue.No one....none of these students or previous
students are protesting the honor code. The honor code itself in not their
issue. They are protesting how the honor code is being enforced. From
their personal experiences one can tell many have suffered life altering very
traumatizing effects related to how their supposed infraction was handled. They
are asking for a re evaluation of enforcement policies hoping a more educated,
insightful, loving, balanced approach that will actually be supportive to those
students in violation. I'm proud of them for doing what they can to
effect a much needed change.I believe improvement for all will come from
this, and they deserve our support in their efforts.
I have an honest question:We don't have an honor code office
for the Temple. We trust our people who attend the temple to be good people.
Why then do we need one for BYU? Is BYU somehow more sacred than the temple?
Maybe we are saying - hey all you top notch students that passed
years of seminary, got exceptional grades, passed multiple Bishop and Stake
President interviews, served missions, go to church in huge number and
demonstrate tremendous faith each and every day - We Don't Trust You! We will let you get married in the Temple, serve callings, go on
missions, attend 16 hours of religion classes, go to devotionals, attend church,
do tons of service work, pray, hold family home evenings - with people you have
just met, act to the highest levels of integrity but - well we need an honor
code office just in case.The honor code office is a relic of the
Wilkenson days - born from hard fisted men who were combating the 1960's
counter culture. Let it go and trust you people - they continue to prove
themselves and in all honesty really don't need you anymore to be exactly
who they already are - exceptional people who hold the future of the Church in
I’m with the students on this one. Those who dismiss their concerns with
flippant statement like “if they don’t like it they should go to
another school,” really have no comprehension of the issue. A big
part of the problem is the ecclesiastical arm and the standards arm are at odds
with each other. A student could undergo the repentance process with his/her
bishop but could get heavy handed treatment from the HC office potentially years
later for the same transgression. I state from experience that there is no
allowance for recourse or appeal from the ecclesiastical leader on behalf of any
student.Then there is the issue of over-the-top treatment for relatively
trivial infractions.i had a student who was booted from BYU-I 2/3 into the
semester who took a “justified” swing at his roommate for racial
slurs. There was no physical injury and the incident between the 2 was
reconciled with the bishopric. But the HC office caught wind of it and reacted
with expulsion. No credits and no reimbursement of tuition. Ridiculous.I
agree that the HC Office needs a complete overhaul at the BYU schools.
I love the Bloodhounds of the world - they love a hard line and love to judge
people according to the hard line. It is easy for them - I guess perfection
comes easier to some than others. So easy to say if you don't
like the honor code go some place else. It like the Stake President who says -
Hey don't watch the Super Bowl - because he does not care about football.
Hard lines make some people feel safe - it makes other think "I
wonder what that hardliner is hiding?"
"They are protesting the honor code office as well as PD's for using
the honor code as intimidation against those that come forward with sexual
assault claims. Please try to understand the difference."But
that's not what they are protesting. They've already addressed that
issue. They basically want there to be no enforcement of the honor code. For serious, repeat violators, instead of suspending them, just charge them
the non-subsidized rate. So many want to go there for the cheap tuition at a top
school but want to do so while doing whatever they please.
Regardless of where one's sympathies reside in this situation, from a
purely academic perspective, it will be very interesting to see how it unfolds.
I never had problems with the honor code or contact with those
tasked with overseeing compliance with it. However, as is often the case with
those who take on what they perceive as an "enforcement" role, there
clearly have been instances of misjudgment and even administrative malpractice
by the HCO. Some of the stories related by students are genuinely disturbing. In
what now seems like the distant past, a freshman "straight-arrow"
dorm-mate of mine had an encounter with the HCO (or whatever it was called then)
over a trivial matter which he quickly resolved. Nonetheless, he was put off
after being told by a member of the HCO staff that BYU HCO employees should be
viewed as having been put in their position through inspiration (since their
"line of authority can be traced back to BYU's president who is put
there by revelation"). It wasn't his last experience with some
administrative arrogance at BYU by individuals who seemed to relish taking an
excessively punitive approach toward students without even basic respect.
I was a student there over 30 years ago. Attending summer session I was walking
through the Wilkinson Center on a Saturday morning in jeans/t shirt/flip flops.
A professor/administrator stopped me to let me know that in no uncertain terms
that at BYU the men were required to wear socks. I was so dumbstruck that I
could not even reply. Fortunately I did not get a pink slip requiring me to
report to the Honor Code office. Some things are just so arbitrary and enforced
in a capricious manner that change is warranted. "I teach people correct
principles and they govern themselves." Now who said that?
The Honor Code has a purpose. Leave it alone. If you don't like the
school's Honor Code, find another school to attend.
It seems to me that this problem has been resolved a while back when BYU /Church
announced that a student reporting sexual assault would not face an Honor Code
violation if they had been engaging in such at the time. Like too many young
people these days, they seem to be protesting something pretty moot. @
Marybeth, I grew up in Aspen Hill, MD, just off Georgia Ave, it was a a fun
Let adults be adults. BYU and BYUI students don't need a babysitter. They
should not be spied on. Police should not be sharing info with the honor code
office. Nor should students be encouraged to tattle on each other. And btw,
don't we belong to a church that preaches repentance? Free will? Should a
student's entire academic career be derailed by a mistake? Why are the BYU
standards more stringent than the requirements to obtain a temple recommend?
This is all a bit insane to me.Honor code office either needs a
complete reset, or they should shut it down completely.
There is nothing better than a cute girl coming up to you on Campus, starts
talking like she wants to get to know you, and then, after getting your name and
phone number, hands you a pink slip to go report at the honor code office
because your shorts are 1/2 an inch too short. This happened to me several
years ago. I don't know if that still goes on now, but that was pretty
@Marybeth61 - Aspen Hill, MDApril 12, 2019 8:01 p.m.If they
don’t like the honor code, they don’t have to go to that school.
There has to be one school left that has the Lords standards."Some people don't want to hear the truth. NO ONE is protesting the honor
code. They knew the drill when they signed up. They are protesting the honor
code office as well as PD's for using the honor code as intimidation
against those that come forward with sexual assault claims. Please try to
understand the difference.
If you have a problem with this alleged "honor" code, why bother
protesting the organization that promotes and requires any degree of matching
Marybethe61You seem to be slightly misinformed and I wonder if you
read the entire article in question. Nobody is questioning the Lords standards.
The issue is how policies and violations are handled.
We can all do as the amazing author Stephen Covey counseled, "listen to
These students have chosen BYU to go to college. The honor code has been there
the whole time and long before now. Why do they think it should change it.
Transfer to another school that will meet there needs. There are thousands of
kids that would love to attend BYU with the honor code the way it is, but they
can’t get in. I wonder why these students feel they are so special. Grow
If they don’t like the honor code, they don’t have to go to that
school. There has to be one school left that has the Lords standards.
I applaud these students for their courage and their commitment to seek change.
The difference between the student and former student comments on the Instagram
page and the "reader's comments" were . . . chilling. Instead of an 180 word statement from the BYU press office, the best response
would have required only three words:"We hear you."