Letter: Hate crimes have more than one victim

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  • the greater truth Bountiful, UT
    March 13, 2019 3:31 p.m.

    @Kent C. DeForrest

    Legislating behavior?

    Is there truly a law that exists that is changing someone's behavior?

    Is there law that has stopped someone intent on murdering, raping, or even speeding?

    You cannot change someone's behavior by simply passing a law. Laws do not change someone heart or views.

    IS there a law that changed you think or feel about something, or your intentions?.

    These kind of laws only punish someone after the fact for how they think or feel about a special group. Apparently, it is okay to hate what is politically popular to hate and to act on that hate.

    Don't see the problem here?

    Using terrorism laws is a much better way to go.

  • Thomas Jefferson Salt Lake City, UT
    March 13, 2019 12:49 p.m.

    Finally a letter which understands why we pass these kind of laws. Lets see what our regular conservative posters who for some reason are very afraid that their thoughts are going to convict them of crimes.
    *reads comments*

    *back now*

    Joes first objections are laughable. "The biggest haters are almost always the accusers." was the one that caused the biggest chuckle.

    Ultra Bob thinks writing a letter will be a hate crime. LOL.

    Joe gets indignant while complaining that he was the victim of a hate crime...but still is afraid that he can be accused of a hate crime for free speech, which makes me wonder why? And what kind of speech does he usually find coming out of his mouth?

    'the greater truth?' said "This writer apparently has no idea how terrible legislating behavior is." Apparently somehow unaware that is exactly what all legislation does. Murder laws legislate behavior.

    Its like they have no idea what these laws are nor did they bother to read the letter.

    Luckily there were a few posters who have the ability to understand nuance, the laws themselves, and that are not afraid of being accused of hate crimes because they dont commit hate crimes.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    March 13, 2019 12:39 p.m.

    To "Kerry Soelberg" if there is more than one victim, and the intent of the crime was to target a specific group of people why not use terrorism laws?

    To "joe5 " I can think of things worse than hate crimes that society has dreamed up.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    March 13, 2019 9:29 a.m.

    Legislating behavior? Of course it's possible. That's all legislation is. You can't legislate people's ideas. But you can pass laws to curtail their behavior. That's what laws are for. They set an acceptable minimum standard of behavior. Morality requires us to do much more than what the law demands. But if you choose to break the law, you may face a severe penalty. If I get a $100 speeding ticket, it will likely cause me to modify my driving habits, my behavior. Of course, some people never learn. But they are in the minority.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    March 13, 2019 6:09 a.m.

    Anyone can think or say what they chose in this country. However, acting out that belief can get you in trouble. Inciting others as well.

    We judge the severity and punishment for an act of murder on intent and circumstance. Why is this principle any different that an assault perpetrated on another person?

    IMHO, the critics of Hate Crime legislation hide their prejudice and animous towards others with lofty language and hackneyed expressions ("legisting behavior is just he essence of evil and hate codified"). We have already legislated behavior: murder, robbery, rape, assault to name a few.

    The hypocrisy and the motivation behind this hypocrisy are easily exposed, and very sad to take notice of.

  • No One Of Consequence Salt Lake City, UT
    March 13, 2019 1:18 a.m.

    The Legislature passed the Hate Crime legislation because they have been pressured to do so. Time will tell whether these laws are fairly and evenly applied, or whether prosecutors will ever choose to invoke a hate crime enhancement. Like the anti-hate resolution recently debated in the US Congress, this may be just words, not change or action.

  • the greater truth Bountiful, UT
    March 12, 2019 7:54 p.m.

    This writer apparently has no idea how terrible legislating behavior is.

    Do we really want government deciding what is "good" and forcing all to their version of "good".

    And by government I mean whomever is in control.

    That is government controlling your thoughts, speech, views, conscience, and all related actions.

    Legislating behavior is just very essence of evil and hate codified.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    March 12, 2019 5:16 p.m.

    "The biggest haters are almost always the accusers."

    How is it possible for otherwise "nice" people to assert this kind of thing?

    In the vast majority of cases those who have suffered a crime based on a perceived characteristic (race, religion, sexual orientation, gender, etc) don't "hate" the perpetrators. They hate the crime and the very fact they were assaulted because of a defining characteristic and extreme animous from the criminal. Isn't that the "good" Christian point of view?

    Why don't we base our discussion on what is fact instead of raw emotion that seeks to inflame, not inform.

  • kvs West Jordan, UT
    March 12, 2019 2:14 p.m.

    I am sorry that none of the responses to the original letter addressed any of the concepts of the letter:
    1)That (just) laws reflect the morals of society and help to mold society (rehabilitate if you will) and have successfully done so for generations.
    2) That hate crime laws help to define a specific kind of crime, much like armed robbery is different from simple robbery because it has additional dangers to society.
    3) That hate crime laws do not prosecute thought - they prosecute actions which damage not only the direct victim of the action, but others in society through fear and intimidation.

    I would be interested in thoughtful discussion on these premises. Are one or more true? Why?One or more false? Why? One or more relevant or not relevant to the hate crimes bill submitted to this year's state legislature?

    Any takers?

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    March 12, 2019 1:13 p.m.

    Heretic: You know nothing at all about me but that apparently doesn't stop you from speaking out in ignorance. Is that a form of hatred? Should I be offended that you would use your thoughts about me to stereotype an entire segment of our society (white middle aged, middle class men). And since you blatantly demonstrate prejudice, should you be accused of hate speech?

    Do you see how quickly this can turn around and I could use hate crime legislation to limit your freedom of speech and to castigate you as a bigot and hater?

    For the record, I grew up dirt poor in a racially integrated neighborhood in San Diego (black, Mexican, and white). My neighborhood was violent in the late 1960s and I had multiple high school classmates that did not live to adulthood because of the violence. I took a beating or two for no other reason than being white. I was spared one beating because a good friend of mine (who happened to be black) told the group he was with and who was threatening me that "Joe is a good guy. We can let him go."

    Your comments reflect much more poorly on you than they do on me.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    March 12, 2019 12:07 p.m.

    joe5 said: "Hate crime laws are one of the most evil things our society has ever dreamed up."

    Actually, Hate crimes are the most evil thing in a society, ignoring this fact is the privilege of never being hated for something you have no control over.

    Hate crimes like Nazis in Germany carried out, or Nazis in America would like to carry out.

    Hate crimes are evil, calling a law that fits their insidious behavior evil, baffles me.

    Walk in another's shoes, for a change, and maybe just maybe, you'll understand, but my experience has been white middle aged, middle class men feel the most picked on, even if it's only based on their radio propaganda.

    I don't fear hate crimes, mostly because I would never commit such crimes.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    March 12, 2019 10:44 a.m.

    When I write letters to the editor about the unfair and unjust business and justice systems, am I commiting a Hate crime? And when the newspaper refuses to print such letters are they guilty of a Hate crime? Is Donald Trump guilty of a Hate crime when he call Hillary Clinton "Crooked Hillary"?

  • joe5 South Jordan, UT
    March 12, 2019 10:25 a.m.

    Hate crime laws lead to an abuse of power and are, in fact, hate crimes in and of themselves. We have seen it time and time again as people are persecuted under an accusation of hatred where none really exists.

    My children sometimes thought I hated them but with age and maturity came perspective and they realized their perceptions in the heat of the moment were wrong. But the heat of the moment merely gets fanned when the term hate crime is applied. We have seen innocent people accused of hatred while the accusers have foam flying from their mouths and their faces contorted in rage while they use the laws as a weapon to abuse people with whom they cannot even begin to understand and are completely unwilling to try.

    That is the irony of hate crime laws. The biggest haters are almost always the accusers.They don't care about the accused at all. They have no intention of rehabiliting the person or of trying to teach them. All they want is viscious punishment and retaliation. In fact, that is what hate crime laws are all about - enhanced penalties, not enhanced rehabilitation.

    Hate crime laws are one of the most evil things our society has ever dreamed up.