University says it plans to appeal the decision reached after a 3-year state review
Transparency and compliance with laws and regulations affecting all POST
certified agencies is not a difficult task. Please, BYU, do not place the
university in an "above the law" position. Stop the legal nonsense and
just comply as requested by Utah Department of Public Safety. The
decertification is presently warranted. Stop wasting university funds on legal
maneuverings. The campus police must have an arms-length relationship with the
university, as required at other campuses. This is not difficult.
It is nice to see the good ol boys network being taken to task.
This is just another good reason that ALL (public and private) colleges and
universities shouldn't have their own police forces. They should simply be
subject to the graphical jurisdiction of city, county, state, and federal law
enforcement where they reside.
It seems BYU police wants to have it's cake, and eat it too. They
want to have the powers of arrest that only state certified officers have.
Then claim to be a "private" institution that are exempt from
the laws all other law enforcement agencies abide with.
Be my guest in demanding that BYU police abide by state standards to obtain
state certification. But you can't demand state standards to be certified
by the state without being FUNDED by the state. So, if Utah, via taxpayers, is
ready and willing to foot that bill, then sure go ahead, the request is
I have heard Romany stories that the byu police have to many issues.
Oh brother, haters on both sides out in full force on this one.
BYU believes that governments were instituted of God for the benefit of man; and
that he holds men accountable for their acts in relation to them, both in making
laws and administering them, for the good and safety of society. I
believe BYU is not a government organization but has a security responsibility
toward the community, students and the University administration. If they perform arrests and are called BYU Police they are performing
governmental and constitutional functions.Six-months for officers
with POST training and Certification is sufficient since this case has been
sufficient for the University to respond to POST and the DPS.
If BYU is going to stay legit they need to comply with the state requirements.
Otherwise, they are a secretive rogue force without oversight, and they should
no longer be recognized as a legit police department, have access to state
databases or have the authority to arrest anyone. A bigger question to me is
why is BYU fighting this?
I thought it was the U of U police that screwed up so bad with the Lauren
McCluskey episode. But I don’t think any university needs police, when the
city police would have more resources. Just take the number of police on campus
and add that many to the local PD.
The issue with any school having its own police forces is where their loyalties
lie. If the school is funding the force, it is in charge. Their interest is
likely to be in protecting the schools reputation from scandal. Justice for any
victim will be secondary if even a consideration at all.Schools that
want a police force should have to subsidize the local police department for
putting a substation on campus and officers should be rotated thru that station
to prevent undue influence arising from too much familiarity. The local police
forces detective division per their normal assignment process should do
investigations into complaints of serious crimes.Law enforcement and
the pursuit of justice are the proper purview of the government and not private
entities with private agendas
I completely agree with "junkgeek"... university "police "
should be for parking infractions and security for events (games, plays, etc).
Local police departments should still have jurisdiction over real crime that
occurs on or around campus. The claim that they can't get to campus fast
enough is ridiculous. That's their job, to get to places quickly and
efficiently. In many other articles recently about crimes
perpetrated on Students at our local universities, I have stated that I would
never have gone to university police for any of these incidents. If the local
city police don't take you seriously you have real problems. If your campus
police ignore you... well, we all know what can happen then. They
are, and should remain, glorified parking attendants.
I guess the state decided that independence isn't working for the BYU-P
I personally think no university should have their own police department. At the
U it should be the SL Police department and the U should pay for it. At BYU it
should be the Provo Police Department and BYU should pay for it. You know like
they pay for it now. Roll both departments into the city.
I guess Senator Bramble can explain to his constituents why their property and
local taxes is being raised to increase the Provo PD to patrol and cover BYU
campus.If BYU didn't comply with open records and is misusing
databases there should be punitive measures, but I think de-certification should
be a last resort when taking students' safety into account. I guess the DPS
feels Sept 1st is long enough to increase the duties and boots on the ground for
Provo PD? Otherwise these actions could have some very negative
consequences...I'm going to venture that DPS doesn't really care about
that, or they are seriously lacking in foresight.
Law enforcement is the duty and responsibility of the state. It is not a duty
or responsibility of the church.
The issue in question was an byu officer using a national police database to
investigate honor code violations which is not the intended purpose of the
database. The solution is simple honor code enforcement should be a separate
entity to their police force. That way they have cops and at the same time
continue their lack of transparency as a private entity
Apparently, some commenters who are stating that BYU should just comply and
behave like other PDs, and asking why are they even appealing this did not read
the article completely. BYU responded saying that they DID comply and that they
are confounded as to why the commissioner is taking this position. BYU stated
that they believe that they "met all applicable criteria and is surprised
that the commissioner is issuing a letter on these technical grounds."
That's why they are appealing. And they feel they did comply. And why is
Sen. Bramble introducing this legislature? Has this been an on going problem? If
not and this is an isolated case (which seems to be a very isolated case), it
seems to me that Bramble is jumping on a made up band wagon to score political
points instead of really serving the public good.
The response and headline should read; BYU police and administration plan to
take every step necessary to follow compliance protocol to receive
@2 bits - Cottonwood Heights, UTFeb. 26, 2019 11:24 a.m.@Impartial7
- DRAPER, UTSo what's wrong with BYU PD retaining their certification
if they "turn over some documents and promise to "play fair". Say
they will comply, fully, and maintain their certification"?If they do
these things I would think they SHOULD maintain their certification. Don't
you?"Yeah. That's what I said. If they want certification,
then they need to abide by the laws and play within the rules that every other
Utah PD is required to do. If they do, then they should be accredited. If they
refuse, ignore subpoenas, and flaunt GRAMA laws, they should lose certification
and be disbanded. They should be on par with a security guard service.
@ 2 BitsI do hope that BYU PD keeps its certification...by
following the law and being accountable to the community.Does the
Tribune hope to embarrass BYU? Undoubtedly, but this is all the more reason for
BYU PD to operate by the book and welcome the same oversight placed on other
@Sun Devil at Heart - Lindon, UTSo if they are so great why
didn't they comply?
BYU doesn’t need to be de-certified, they obeyed the law as outlined in
GRAMA. Lawmakers need to realize this and changeGRAMA. It protests more
than just BYU.
Because of BYU's relationship with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints, being required to be fully transparent with all requests for information
would create an excessive burden. Critics of the church would overwhelm the
university with requests, only seeking to defame and harm the institution.You never know how the information will be used and twisted.I am involved with two religious discussion groups on the web and the critics
are salivating over the opportunity that this issue would provide. They are
anything but fair minded or even handed. I have seen them say that
"BYU has the highest dropout rate due to pregnancy in the nation." This
obviously conveys the image that BYU students are immoral. They never mention
that the students are married, and most return to school after a few months.This is how twisted and dishonest this is.To require BYU to
help these people twist facts and distort reality is unconscionable.
Notre Dame just went through this same issue after being sued by ESPN. The court ruled that Notre Dame Security Police department is not a
"public agency" under Indiana law and does not have to provide
information about investigations the sports media company requested in 2014.
I am pleasantly surprised that BYU couldn't get a similar
ruling or work out that same deal in Utah.
If BYU's "police force" is "privately funded, managed and
operated police department within a private university" why should they care
if they are certified by the state? Certification is just some
label from the state. It should be meaningless to them. Why does BYU even
"We are a nation of laws" Is what the Republicans keep
telling me when discussing illegal immigration. I guess that applies here as
There is actually a larger issue here. Whether BYU security did or did not do
something is relatively unimportant except as a harbinger of the direction of
current events.Governments at all levels are becoming more intrusive
and demanding more power over all aspects of civil life. In a free society,
there are numerous areas in which a government does not intrude. For example,
the federal government had no right to know how much a person made or how that
person spent it until the government needed more money that only an income tax
could raise. Governments traditionally did not intervene within a family, even
to the point of refusing to dictate who could marry whom, until the government
decided that it needed to control religion, and later needing methods of
distributing transfer payments.Current governments appear to want to
control all aspects of both private and public life. Free assembly is only free
as long as the assembly does not do anything the powerful dislike. Since a government can pass laws, making the argument that people are free to
do as they please unless they violate a law is circular reasoning.
Here's something to keep in mind - the BYU PD is in hot water for it's
lack of transparency - not because a student died because of it's
@Let's Agree to DisagreeRE: "I am surprised and disappointed that
BYU is fighting this"...---And Why are they fighting to retain
their certification?So they can protect their students, instead of
the City PD (which doesn't have time to be on campus all the time).Is that something to be ashamed of? Wanting to protect your
students?I'm frankly disappointed in the State. Because doing
this makes students less safe, but they don't care. All they care about is
paper work and compliance.I get it. I just don't know if you
intentionally make students LESS safe, just because you can, or you got your
nose out of joint because they didn't turn all the paper work you requested
over to the media to publish. Even if it exposed innocent student's
private lives to be printed in the media.What BYU did didn't
endanger anybody, it just wasn't compliant. What the State is doing will
endanger students. It will make it take longer for police to respond to
incidents on Campus (like the one we recently had on the UofU campus).With the BYU PD no longer certified... students will have to wait for a city
PD unit to respond if they are being assaulted. Like what happened at the U.
I'm sure this has nothing to do with how the Tribune picks on BYU and the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It's not as if there is a
history of antagonism towards I don't know, everything BYU and the church
has ever done by some people in Salt Lake that would make BYU hesitate to hand
BYU has a target on its back, all of the time. For that reason open records
would be, unfairly, more scrutinized than any other PD in the state.
BYU needs new leadership from the President through the Athletic Director. I
love BYU, but they seem to think that rules that apply to everybody else
don't apply to them.
For me, this is really simple: if you want to have a campus police force that
has all the powers of a regular police force, then you open your records. If you
want your campus police force to have the ability to access law enforcement
databases, you open your records.In short, if you are a private
police force with all of the powers of a public police force and you are
certified by the state, you need to abide by the same rules. Abide
or decertify...it's not that hard to understand, folks.
In my opinion, universities shouldn't have private police departments; the
local PD (Provo in this case) should handle things.(Disclaimer - BYU
alum with a child at BYU and another attending USU.)
Question:Is not responding when a student and her parents call to report a
dangerous felon and sex-offender stocking their daughter on campus considered
"In compliance"?I guess so... the UofU PD still has their
I support BYU and I support law enforcement when it is transparent and
accountable to the public it is intended to serve.I am surprised and
disappointed that BYU is fighting this.
@Impartial7 - DRAPER, UTSo what's wrong with BYU PD retaining their
certification if they "turn over some documents and promise to "play
fair". Say they will comply, fully, and maintain their
certification"?If they do these things I would think they SHOULD
maintain their certification. Don't you?I would hope there is
a way to maintain your certification, if you comply with what the State is
demanding. Which are the things you listed.Should they be
de-certified just because they are BYU? Or because you don't like them?
No. They should be de-certified if they are not in compliance. But if they
get back in compliance (do the things you listed) then why would they NOT
maintain certification? Just out of hate for BYU?I think if they
do the things you listed and get back in compliance... they should maintain
A letter of intent as a notice is quite appropriate. It is, however
lacking the link to the pending court decisions--- unless the courts are done by
the stated date.
RE: "james d. morrison - Sandy, UTProbably for the best. Just have
Provo police cover the campus and have campus security act as security
guards"...---So who responds if there is an active shooter on
campus? Provo PD? Or the security guards?Know how long it would
take Provo PD to get there?===@walkingman24"Which raises the question then, is the UofU PD next?No, because
UofU is a public institution"...---Doesn't matter if the
UofU is a public institution. Their PD has the same requirements as BYU.The problem here is open records violations. UofU PD has had it's
share of problems too. They were just more open about it.BYU PD
does need to be more open about cases they are investigating. They need to
stop worrying about if exposing the details of investigations they are doing
will hurt an innocent student involved in the investigation, or an officer
involved in the investigation. They need to stop protecting people, even if
they think they are innocent. The press wants the gory details of
student's sex lives... just give it to them. It's the law, I guess.
Does not every single Utahn (outside of Utah County) agree that BYU
state-certified police officers may not use the countywide database of police
records to collect information for school Honor Code investigations? By
the way, hats off to Provo Senator Curt Bramble who is leading the way in
reigning in the BYU Police on this matter (there go his BYU basketball tickets).
The university declined to release the emails, arguing it is a "privately
funded, managed and operated police department within a private
university."____________________BYU will likely comply with the
requirements and should. These are standard and not unreasonable for the state
of Utah in its oversight responsibilities.
Great decision by DPS. Either BYUPD is a state certified police agency that is
required to abide by ALL of the same laws that other state certified police
agencies are, or they cannot be a certified agency. It's pretty simple, and
very black and white. Their cannot be a special exemption carved out for a
private school. Any private school. If there is, then that school might ask for
other exemptions from the law.
This is all theater, people. Some well placed calls from church officials will
be made. Then, we'll hear how we need to "step back and calm down"
and "reevaluate the situation" BYU PD will turn over some documents and
promise to "play fair". They'll say they will comply, fully,
maintain their certification, and go about business as usual. It's Utah
Let's face it, if the appeal fails then they'll open up. BYU PD
Maybe the byu police should just comply with the law then?
@brave - so it's better to mess up and cost someone's life than it is
to be closed yet not have those problems. Your logic is very flawed if the
former results in a hand slap while the latter is grounds for complete shutdown.
Probably for the best. Just have Provo police cover the campus and have campus
security act as security guards.
This closed approach is surely in keeping with the way this religious
organization conducts itself. It is about time that a little sunshine was
spread on byu's campus -sunshine being a good disinfectant. If they will
not comply with openness requirements of police departments, then they certainly
should be decertified.
"Which raises the question then, is the UofU PD next?"No,
because UofU is a public institution and was already following all applicable
open records laws. BYU wasn't.
@Sun Devil at HeartNo one is saying that BYUPD is a bad police force
or that they aren't professional. But they are required to follow open
records laws that other governmental-based police departments follow. Are you
against transparency and equal rules?
Having recently retired from BYU after 44 years, I find this to be punitive and
senseless. During those 44 years, I had numerous interactions with them
including serving for fifteen years on a university committee that worked
closely with the BYU Police. In all instances, I found them to be extremely
professional, far above the standards expected. It obvious that the commission
is trying to take extraordinary measures based on conjecture and personal bias.
If they were to do a thorough investigation they would be left with absolutely
no basis to take such an arbitrary action. Perhaps the commissioner and Utah
Department of Public Safety needs to looked into more closely as to their
efficiency, objectivity, and effectiveness.
@jonny triumph"Which raises the question then, is the UofU PD
next?"No, because UUPD - in spite of their well-documented
problems - is being open and transparent about their issues. BYU-P PD is
basically a secret good ol' boys club.
About all they do is write parking tickets anyway. Sure is funny how they
ticket on Sunday's as well.
Given the de-certification, if students expect to be protected on campus they
should obtain their provisional concealed firearms permits enacted by the Utah
Legislature for 18 year old students, correct? Hopefully BYU security realizes
by now that maintaining a "weapon free" campus is a grossly negligent
and horribly dangerous policy.
This is very interesting and, at least from this side of the desk, seems like a
punitive effort against the BYU PD. Which raises the question then, is the UofU
PD next? I guess it'd depend if BYU's lack of investigation into one
issue is greater than the U's internal problems lately...