Megan McArdle: What the push for legal-until-birth abortion tells us about the abortion debate

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  • MWK Provo, UT
    Feb. 9, 2019 11:35 p.m.

    TO: pragmatistferlife
    "Point in fact ... So by the 15th week nearly 95% of all abortions have occurred. This whole late term abortion rant is misdirection, slight of hand baloney."

    So, you’re saying that 'if we are talking about any law seeking to protect less than 5% of all potential victims, such a concern is a ‘rant, misdirection, and slight of hand baloney’?

    What you offer is an odd variant on utilitarian logic and legal philosophy—‘it’s okay to violate the rights of a few as long as we uphold the rights of most.’ I think it could be useful to take your utilitarian argument for a personal test drive.

    Far less than 5% of all crimes victimize anyone in your family or tribe (or mine), so to get in an uproar over any of these criminal offenses committed against your family or tribe (or mine) is a ‘rant, misdirection, and slight-of-hand baloney’? Hmm. Utilitarian positions are not so appealing when they get personal. If you are in the 5%, I doubt you are willing to endorse the denial of your individual rights. I know I am not.

  • MWK Provo, UT
    Feb. 9, 2019 9:30 p.m.

    TO: pragmatistferlife
    "Point in fact ... So by the 15th week nearly 95% of all abortions have occurred. This whole late term abortion rant is misdirection, slight of hand baloney."

    That is precisely why our country’s founders affirmed a philosophical and legal position of inalienable individual rights, so that every person could be secure. In this country, we are not content with a utilitarian 95% justice, but seek justice for all—something you and I assuredly claim as our human right.

    Though I do not agree with pro-abortion arguments, at least some attempt a reasoned defense. It is sickening, though, to think someone would dismiss a near-term infant’s right to life on such a flimsy basis as, ‘well, it’s less than 5%, does it really matter.’

    If something is harmful, criminal, or immoral, it is so in every instance, for every victim, including you and me. The only relevant argument in the abortion debate is at what point we will accord another human being the same legal rights we already-born persons enjoy.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 7, 2019 11:11 p.m.

    What pressures are brought by the man to discourage the woman from using contraceptives? Why will the man not use condoms? These are pivotal questions.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 7, 2019 12:01 p.m.

    To "marxist " once again, reality does not reflect what you say.

    At VeryWellHealth, they list the most common reasons for an abortion. Abuse by a partner is lumped into a category that includes the relation being new, not wanting to be a single mother, partner not wanting the baby, etc...

    In the study "Reasons why women have induced abortions: a synthesis of findings from
    14 countries" they found that most women have abortions for financial reasons.

    The Guttmacher Institute study titled "Reasons U.S. Women Have Abortions:
    Quantitative and Qualitative Perspectives" found that less than 1% of abortion are from rape, and 14% are from a husband/partner that insisted. So again, there is little abuse for the reason behind an abortion.

    To "unrepentant progressive" do you know what works better? Not putting yourself into a situation where sex becomes an option. For example, if a couple remains in public places where other people are around there is a very small possibility of becoming pregnant.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 7, 2019 9:55 a.m.

    Most people in this state support abortion for "life of the mother" reasons and in instances where there is a severe enough defect that the fetus has that makes it nonviable. These are not frequent reasons for abortions but they are the primary reasons for the small percentage of abortions that are late term abortions. After all, why would someone carry a pregnancy for 6+ months if they were planning to abort for some matter of convenience?

  • 1covey Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 7, 2019 9:30 a.m.

    Many problems could be solved if the mother would identify the father along with DNA verification, so that the biological father could be held to account.

  • The Real Maverick Spanish Fork, UT
    Feb. 6, 2019 10:49 p.m.

    Republicans must really be struggling if they’re bringing up abortion. They only seem to bring this up to try and cover up their failings on other more important issues.

  • pragmatistferlife Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2019 6:15 p.m.

    "Aside that, most women clearly do not want to abort an unborn child, particularly in the later stages of term. "

    Point in fact.."In 2003, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported that 26% of reported legal induced abortions in the United States were known to have been obtained at less than 6 weeks' gestation, 18% at 7 weeks, 15% at 8 weeks, 18% at 9 through 10 weeks, 10% at 11 through 12 weeks, 6% at 13 through 15 weeks, 4% ..."

    So by the 15th week nearly 95% of all abortions have occurred.

    This whole late term abortion rant is misdirection, slight of hand baloney.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2019 4:04 p.m.

    "Yet like most of those in the Muddle, I find arguments about bodily control steadily less compelling as the pregnancy advances, and another body develops, which has its own claims to bodily integrity."

    I agree. But the writer misses the male/female relationship issue. Abortion is seen as a woman only act. But just as a man and a woman jointly get pregnant, the man participates in the abortion too. And to father a child and not be committed to its welfare is the most irresponsible thing a man can do.

    Why do women seek abortions? Just for convenience? I don't think so. Often abortions are sought by women to escape from an abusive intimate partner. And women often as not have nowhere to turn, except for Planned Parenthood. Pro-lifers are wont to say women get pregnant completely willingly and then up and decide to abort. Sometimes, but more often not.

    Relief from abortion is to be found in the male/female relationship.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Feb. 6, 2019 2:31 p.m.

    No, the life of the mother. Abortionists can make up all sorts of excuses using the health of the mother argument

    Saying, meaning, and enforcing “no” always works

    What kind of person thinks a woman should be responsible for her choices? Responsible people.

    What kind of people think no one should ever be responsible for their choices? Liberals, unless they are talking about conservatives.

    Most women don’t want… but some do, just for convenience. And you’re OK with that? I’m not. Responsible people are not.

    P platypus
    If you have to mislead people to defend your position than your position isn't defendable, is it.

    Thank you for the apt condemnation of so many liberal arguments on any topic

  • Prometheus Platypus Orem, UT
    Feb. 6, 2019 12:46 p.m.

    While explaining the HB2491 measure, Northam also explained from a medical perspective what it is like for women with nonviable pregnancies to go into labor. "The infant would be delivered; the infant would be kept comfortable; the infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desire, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother," he said.

    Read "Nonviable pregnancies" again.

    Nonviable pregnancies: Early in pregnancy, this could be a miscarriage or a missed spontaneous abortion. It could also be a pregnancy with a dead fetus later on in pregnancy. A nonviable pregnancy is a pregnancy without a chance of a live infant being born or without the fetus having a chance to survive if born alive.

    What would you do as a mother or husband?

    If you have to mislead people to defend your position than your position isn't defendable, is it.

  • Eponymous Eggplant Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 6, 2019 12:29 p.m.

    McArdle: "I am eventually willing to say enough, you've gone too far."

    Thanks, DesNews, for a reasoned treatment of the abortion issue, from an unlikely source, the Washington Post. Similarly, I appreciated Ms. McArdle's courage to actually come to a conclusion, one that is at odds with much of popular culture.

    I generally reject references to the "Arc of History" as progressivist baloney. That said, I really believe that in the future, as mankind more fully appreciates the miracle of creation, the decades following Roe v Wade will be looked upon as a period of barbarism, just as we look back at the torturous punishments inflicted during the middle ages.

    Margaret Sanger's racist eugenics cannot be allowed to define who we are as Americans. Rather, as President Trump implored us last night, let us choose greatness.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Feb. 6, 2019 12:33 p.m.

    It is reprehensible to consider that a pregnancy must continue after "the nasty dance". What kind of person thinks this way. The best way to prevent pregnancy is education and affordable reproductive healthcare options. Just say 'no' doesn't work. Never did. And referring to the act of procreation as "nasty dance" is beyond the pale.

    Aside that, most women clearly do not want to abort an unborn child, particularly in the later stages of term. However, there are reasons, valid ones at that, which change the equation. Like an infant with no chance of survival or the health of the mother. Repeating a grissly procedure as proof of a mother's inhumanity does not alter this basic calculus. This serves only to inflame, not inform.

    Lastly, unintended pregnancies terminated for good reason early on are no sin. This has gone on for eons. It should be up to the woman, her family and her conscience what decision ought be made. It has nothing to do with anyone else.

  • Flashback Kearns, UT
    Feb. 6, 2019 11:47 a.m.

    Sorry but for the pro choice crowd, the choice was made when the nasty dance was done. Using abortion as birth control is just plain immoral and wrong.

    There are only a few instances where abortion should ever be considered, the paramount one being the health of the mother.

    But in the third trimester, the baby can survive outside of the womb. IF you don't want the kid, let it get born and give it up for adoption. Many people want kids and can't have them. Give them a chance.

    The Democrats crowing about late term abortions and thinking they've done a great thing are just showing that they are the party of immoral and unjust behavior. They have no interest in protecting people or as they say, the little guy. They should be protecting the most innocent among us. That would be unborn babies.

    The Preamble of the Constitution says something about promoting the "general welfare".

    They are no better than the Nazis and are doing many of the same things. I'm sure Heinrich Himmler is somewhere smiling over this, since this is just what he was doing. And they call Republicans Fascists.