Socialism is expensive and then quickly catastrophic.Ask Venezuela how
their "medicaid for all" program turned out.
Article 25 of the United Nations' 1948 Universal Declaration of Human
Rights states the following:"Everyone has the right to a
standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his
family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social
@Iron Rod: "I am willing to pay much more in taxes so my less fortunate
brothers and sisters can have health care"If true, I've
never seen any get in trouble for over-paying his taxes. Have you made a habit
of not claiming all your deductions? Or perhaps even writing a check to the
State of Utah to donate to our current Medicaid fund? If so, I praise you.If not, what you are really saying is that you are willing to pay more
in taxes only if your neighbor joins you. Some of us don't have room in our
budget for higher taxes. For many of us, that is because we choose to donate to
programs we sincerely believe are more effective than government medicaid.@The Atheist:It is quite disingenous to object to
"morality" in government or laws except when morality supports your
desired outcome.Strawman arguments about what conservatives believe
are not very useful in finding common ground. Life isn't fair, people do
need help. The question is whether expanding medicaid is the best way to provide
help.In total, I'm already paying upwards of 50% of my income
in various taxes. We simply can't afford every good thing. Opportunity
This bill is ALL ABOUT MONEY. Look at who is behind the idea and is supporting
the bill. Intermountain Healthcare came up with this idea. (I have inside
knowledge and know this with 100% certainty) Why would they care? Because they
can make MORE MONEY when a person has insurance through the Affordable Care Act
Exchanges than through Medicaid. Select Health has 80% marketshare on the
exchanges and everyone one of those people can only seek care at an
Intermountain Hospital or Physician. This is corruption beyond belief.
Hospitals and doctors DO NOT LOSE MONEY by seeing a Medicaid patient - they only
make less money. The state's largest not for profit health system should
do the right thing for Utahn's and accept Medicaid payment and the voter
supported expansion. Shame on them for being so greedy.
I am willing to pay much more in taxes so my less fortunate brothers and sisters
can have health care
Who pays for the health care of these faith leaders? How much of their own
money goes to help someone in need of healthcare? Lead by example, faith
dulce et decorum est,Very important comment!I find that,
too often, conservatism blindly accepts a narrow, utilitarian conception of
morality.Combined with "free market" capitalism, and an
assumption that we live in a "just world" (where people get what they
deserve), and the result is a ruthless, hard-hearted, blame-the-victim approach
to social issues.Medicaid expansion should not be primarily nor
strictly an economic decision; it should be primarily a moral and social
decision, and the economics should follow to make the moral possible.
@Ranch "Religion should be about helping the poor and needy,
that is what this topic is about - not legislating away someone's right to
marry or preventing a woman from controlling her own body."It's sounds like what you're saying is, helping the poor and needy
makes the separation of church null and void, but if churches support
conservative causes, that's when the separation of church and state should
be used to silence churches. You might disagree, but to me that sounds like
enforcing the Constitution only when its politically convenient to certain
groups or certain causes.
Even if medicaid expansion were not eminently affordable, it is time that we
realize that affordability is determined by our values and not by economic laws
that leave no room for determinations of policy. Moral questions should not be
held hostage to the systems of rules by which we run our economy. These rules
are NOT an expression of natural law. Why, for example, do we decide that
patent protection on new technologies lasts for 20 years and not 10, 15, or 25?
Why are somewhat dubious software patents given the same term of protection as
innovations in highly research intensive areas? The number of rules of economic
import are numberless, and we all know the role that money and political
influence plays in shaping them. Yet, when people find themselves on the wrong
side of being benefited by these rules--often despite their best efforts to
contribute to society--we are content to trust the rules of the game we have
created to benefit ourselves and that would also deny these people basic human
necessities under the banner of “affordability,” as opposed to
questioning our own policy determinations. To my mind this is somewhat akin to
worshiping a golden image.
Yep, Socialism is the answer to all our problems. Just ask Venezuelans, they
are living the good life thanks to Socialism.
At one The LDS Church ran LDS Hospital, Cottonwood hospital, McKay Dee and
Primary children's hospitals. The Catholic Church operated Holy cross
hospital and St. Benedict's and the Methodist ran St. Marks hospital....
Instead of continuing to providing charitable care, they all sold their
hospital operations to private hospital companies.
@Anonymous100"As I understand it, the federal government will match
funds for states who adopt Medicaid Expansion for the first 2 years, then they
reduce their contribution to 90% meaning the state picks up the other 10%,
that's 10% more than what the state is currently spending."That's partially right but it's missing a detail. The first couple
years at 100% was back in 2014-2016. Then it gradually drops down until 2020
when it's 90%. So it's not at 100% right now, it's something much
closer to the 90% (I don't know if it's 92.5%, but that'd be the
even steps down from 2016 at 100% to 2020 at 90%).
"Tens of thousands of poor and uninsured?" I may be agreeable to a
limited Medicaid expansion, but not to an utterly false statement such as this.
Anyone at or below the 138% FPL can get either a Select Health or University
Health plan statewide with a ZERO deductible, $10 co-pay, and about $1900
out-of-pocket max for less than $25 month per person. If you are going to argue
for the poor, at least show some honesty in disclosure rather than knee-jerk
reaction intended to influence votes on the hill and score points with the
This inane debate shows how badly we need a form of socialism in this country.
We need Eugene V Debs style socialism (look it up). And we need it as soon as
Rt. Rev. Scott Hayashi of the Episcopal Diocese of Utah Says money is not a
concern. Its sounds like maybe his church is doing so well they may be able to
@ WeThePeople"Religious leaders can say what they will, but
Utah's government will never kowtow to the churches!"You're being facetious, right? If not, how can you say that with a
straight face? The Utah legislature kowtows to a Church all the time, and
that's not hyperbole. That being said, I'm not concerned
that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints hasn't weighed in on
this issue. The Church is a global organization with global concerns that may
supersede this local issue. I know that the Church helps those in need and
partners with other organizations (e.g., churches and nonprofits) to provide
humanitarian services. For all we know, the Church may be partnering with and
supporting the position of those very ecclesiastical leaders who are calling for
no limits or delays on voter-approved Proposition 3. Let's just adopt it
and move on.
I though religions were not supposed to express their opinions or take a
position on issues, when it comes to government in Utah, oh wait, I guess
it’s just that LDS one right.
Interesting that the "Faith's" no longer provide medical care to
"'Faith leaders' often support government programs under the
misguided desire to promote charity. But 'charity' is voluntary giving
of one's own money."We will be sure to tell the homeless,
the widows, the orphans, the sick and afflicted that very thing as they suffer
and pass away in misery without any help. Because, you know, that's what
Jesus would do! Remember when he had an audience of people out in the wilderness
with nothing to eat? Yeah, he took bread and fishes that didn't belong to
anybody, and he told the hungry: "Get your own!"Right.
How DARE a bunch of religious leaders express an opinion on a way to reduce
human suffering! But not to worry, our "faitful"
representatives will check with "The" Church, and do what they're
"Faith leaders" often support government programs under the misguided
desire to promote charity. But "charity" is voluntary giving of
one's own money. When the government forcibly takes your money, and
inefficiently spends it on questionable programs, it is no longer
"charity", no matter how noble the program sounds. Liberals and some
"faith leaders" want to assuage their own consciences over
"charity" by giving away other people's money.
If it isn't about someone having unapproved sex, the predominant religion
has nothing to say about it. Typical.@imsmarterthanyou;Just think, if we had single payer, you would be insured.@Alferd
Packer;Club dues aren't "charity".@ClarkHippo;Religion should be about helping the poor and needy,
that is what this topic is about - not legislating away someone's right to
marry or preventing a woman from controlling her own body.@Bob
Tanner;I'd rather trust in reality, but I agree that the
legislature doesn't give a darn toot what we think.
You want government to pay for more Medicaid? Are you also okay with government
forcing doctors to take those patients? They (doctors) don’t want to take
it for insurance. They lose money when they see Medicaid patients. There are
very few who do. Hospitals are forced to take it. You may
“solve” one problem by getting people insured on paper, but there is
no one to see them other than the ER. That’s an expensive visit. So we
are right back to where we started.All of you bleeding a hearts need
to look at the financials with this problem. It is not as easy as just getting
people insured. That’s why the ACA has been such an expensive flop.
Hope legislators listen, really listen to all views
This is an unfunded mandate. The federal government kicks in for awhile then it
backs out and all of us are left holding the bag. A quote often attributed
to Alexis de Toquerville but is probably from Alexander Fraser Tytler states:
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only
exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public
treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the
most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose
fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a
monarchy."Variant: The American Republic will endure, until
politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money.The
assumptions quoted about increases in productivity or the economy are NOT
directly attributable to an expansion of Medicaid.One thing is true
though. A democrat politician will invariably will want to spend other
people's money in the most wasteful way possible.As an example : the
SLC mayor spends and spends.
To those complaining that the LDS church did not step in and state an opinion
there is something to point out.Many people have consistently
decried religious people who speak of morality in the public square. This is as
much a setback for liberal and progressive views in the US. You've hurt
social justice because if someone speaks of social justice or inequality or
human rights, the first question they have to answer is, "Why are you
pushing your morality on society?"So, please, explain why in
this instance it is OK for these faith leaders to apply their morality in
society. Then, perhaps we can get into a discussion about if this will really
help, or the best way to do it.First things first.
I wish my faith leaders were signatories.
I, for one, am grateful to be living in a state where our leaders make decisions
based on fiscal responsibility. No Utah legislator will be pressured into
irresponsibly voting based on this bleeding-heart moralizing. Religious leaders
can say what they will, but Utah's government will never kowtow to the
@ Fullypresent “How is it going to be paid for long term? What
taxes are going to be raised to pay for it?”When we are lucky
enough to have universal healthcare coverage, our taxes will go up. But then, no
one will have to pay a health insurance premium (“ouch!” says Big
Pharma) so it all kinda works out to be the same thing - except that no one gets
left out.Please spare us doomsday predictions, as most of the world
is living proof that universal coverage is the only answer.
@ imsmarterthanyou“I oppose it too. I'm really tired of
paying for insurance (and everything else) for ‘less fortunate’
people when I can't get insurance myself.”If you cannot
get insurance yourself, then you must first recognize that you are in the
“less fortunate” category - whom you claim to be “paying
for.” But keep your chin up. There are plenty of people like me who are
absolutely willing to change our lives for universal healthcare coverage in
these United States so that you and everyone else is covered.
Very disappointed in the legislature. It does send a message, why vote?We need medicaid expansion that doesn't need any "waivers"
to be approved, otherwise their replacement bill just torpedos medicaid
expansion and the will of the majority of Utahns.This bill will be a
sad day for the poor of Utah.Health insurance for my family when I
was working for myself was over $2000 per month. How are those in the 100% to
138% of poverty supposed to afford that without spending over 50% of their
income on health insurance? And since it needs a waiver, no doubt those making
under 100% of poverty that don't qualify now won't qualify after this
bill either.This is what the GOP represents now?
@ClarkHippoThe ACLU has defended Conservative, Right-wing, and even
White-Supremacists on grounds of free speech and civil liberties many times.
Cases include: Rush Limbaugh - arrested for possession of prescription
medication not belonging to him, the KKK - for their right to march (multiple
times), the march in Charlottesville, Virginia by the White Supremacist group in
How is it going to be paid for long term? What taxes are going to be raised to
pay for it?
@Happy ValleyOk. You asked:. "So where were they?".Let me take s stab at that question."They" were
probably organizing continuing relief efforts for some third world country
(ies).Perhaps "they" were still trying to help those who
lost their homes and so much more in those devastating California wild fires.Maybe "they" were determining how and when to replace the new,
nearly completed stake center in St. George by some "brave" arsonist.One thing we can be sure of: "They" will continue to try to help
their brothers and sisters, including the less fortunate.Perhaps,
just perhaps, we should "go and do likewise".
@Prometheus"Guess they don't stand for compassion and
helping the poor and sick."Are you serious?The LDS
Church, through its individual congregations, spends millions every year in this
state to help support the poor and the sick. Like an iceberg, you only see
about 1/10 of what LDS wards do -- if that much.Like my ward: For
several months we supported a member and his family who was dealing with cancer.
And it was all done quietly, with no fanfare. Only a few people knew he was
receiving charity.I know because as ward clerk I personally cut the
checks to pay his mortgage, utilities, and medical bills. Thousands of dollars
that came from the pockets of individual members through their fast offerings.
And he wasn't the only one who received financial support from the ward.Perhaps if you removed the beam from your eye you'd see that your
neighbors are far more charitable than you think they are.What the
LDS Church doesn't do is sanctimoniously preen in front of the cameras
while demanding that the government take money from others in order to fulfill
their vision of piety.It's always easier to spend someone
else's money than your own.
As is the norm, Prop 3 will be shredded apart. Prop 4 is resting it's weary
head knowing the chopping block is next in line.
Very generous of Utahns to pay for Medicaid expansion in the states that have
chosen to expand it under the ACA. Utahns pay into Medicaid whether they accept
the expansion or not. By refusing, Utahns are cutting off their own noses to
benefit medical insurance companies. I’ve never gotten a thank you note
from California, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Washington, Oregon...have you?
In Europe, Israel, Canada, Japan, average spending on healthcare is 10% of GDP.
There are 0 bankruptcies due to medical bills. Every citizen is covered. In the United States spends 18% of GDP on healthcare. An average of
643,000 Americans file bankruptcy due to medical bills annually. The US has
higher infant mortality rates than other industrialized nations and shorter life
expectancies. States the size of Kentucky that expanded Medicaid under ACA will
save $1 billion over 10 years. The only people that should profit
from the healthcare industry are healthcare workers. Doctors, Nurses, Clerks,
Technicians, Custodians. Not medical insurance companies whose only motive is:
PROFIT, not patient care. Kill the medical insurance industry. It is
Does "In God We Trust" mean anything anymore? The will of the people
should be honored if we are a democracy...the will of the people should
supersede the will of the legislature. I do not think money alone is the
reason the legislature is so anxious to overturn the will of the people. It is
a sad day indeed when we pick and choose who will get basic health care and who
will not. Do we trust in God? Where there is a will there will always be a
way. We might have to work to find it but the way is there.
Medicaid expansion is all about money. How and who is going to pay for it? How
much money are those 40 faith leaders willing to contribute towards medicaid
expansion? Are those 40 faith leaders willing to cut benefits in other areas
and services to fund medicaid expansion? Will taxes have to be raised to fund
it? Bottom line for me is no more taxes. If it can be done with existing funds
and revenue - go for it.
In the fuzzy warm world of socialism free healthcare, free medicine, free
education/higher education, free, free, free all sound so good. And certainly
there are those who do "benefit". But when it comes to PAYING for all
these "free" services, well, they leave that to others to figure out.
Then when anyone brings up the the reality of cost/benefit ratios and how to pay
for these "services" they close their ears. I have no doubt that there
are people in special situations that need help, but we are mortals. When we
don't take care of ourselves, or abuse our bodies, they break down. Then
there are some people who feel they have to go to the doctor for every sniffle
and cough, so long as they don't have to pay for it. And of course, we
have the medical profession that wants to grow wealthy (especially big pharma
and the insurance companies), so the tax payer gets soaked, and soaked, and
soaked. I applaud the legislature 100% for standing up to the funding issue.
Unlike California, who simply passes stuff like this and then passes those costs
on to the next generation to pay the bill, they are actually doing their job.
Quote: The Rt. Rev. Scott Hayashi of the Episcopal Diocese of Utah, one of
the sponsors of Proposition 3, said the issue shouldn't be about money but
about understanding those who struggle because they do not have health care.Seems to me these "40 faith leaders" are real, real excited to
be spending other people's money. God never said "steal from others and
give it to the poor". He said to help the poor yourself. Beware of false
@Impartial7: "Nice sentiments."What?You're
repeated demanded separation of church and state. You've declared there is
no place for religious beliefs in government.How could it possibly
be "nice sentiments" for a bunch of professional clergymen to be
meddling in politics by voicing religiously based views to try to influence
legislation? Is this not the very conduct that results in certain folks
declaring we have a "religiousature" in Utah rather than a
legislature?Or is it only certain religious views that must be
excised from the public square?For the record, I fully support the
rights of these ministers--and any others motivated by sincere religious
beliefs--to voice their opinions, to petition government, to seek to have their
values reflected in law. I support these rights, even as I disagree strenuously
with the specific position taken in this case.A mild consistency on
basic principles requires that one's position not change 180 degrees based
on what someone advocates for or against.
@HappyValleyYes. It is so easy to tell others how to spend THEIR
No comments yet from those who would normally be shouting about the separation
of church and state. How come? I can't help but wonder if
those who would ordinarily be doing so are being quiet because, in this case,
they agree with these church leaders. It is only when a church makes a statement
they disagree with that the shouts of separating church and state are heard. This proves the point I've made many times before which is,
organizations like the ACLU and Americans United only object to religion getting
involved in politics when the politics is conservative. When the politics is
liberal, churches can be as political as they want, and the ACLU and Americans
United will not utter a peep of criticism.Next time you hear a
Democrat or liberal activist talk about their support of the separation of
church and state, what they're really saying is, they support barring
conservative groups or politicians from using churches as a political arm in
support of their causes, while liberal groups and politicians may have free and
unlimited use of churches in supporting their causes.
It is interesting to see that some influence people in the community do not
think money should not be considered in this case. With this mindset, who else
will pay for this? At the same time, I do not see those who supported this
proposition, stepping up with their wallets to pay for this either. Meanwhile,
I have not seen any money falling from the sky to pay for this either.
A link to the letter itself with the names of the 40 signatories would be most
appreciated. Who, What, Where, When, Why
Herbert Gravy "Oh, my. How could anyone suggest that the LDS Church does
"not stand for compassion and helping the poor and the sick"?"So where were they? They obviously can't afford to help
all the poor and sick, or we wouldn't be having a conversation, that is why
we need to help as society, and fill in the gap between what religion can do and
can't.Alferd Packer asks: "What have you done for your
fellow man "dordrecht" and "Impartial7"? "I love
how religious folks claim charity thru tithing.In 1993 a Temple cost
24 million to build, gotta be double that now, so that doesn't make 40
million seem like much to give to the sick and poor.
@PPlatypusOh, my. How could anyone suggest that the LDS Church does
"not stand for compassion and helping the poor and the sick"?Please show me an organization of similar size that does MORE to help the poor
and the sick.To suggest otherwise defies logic.Thank
The legislature consistently cuts taxes then moans that it simply doesn't
have the money to address needs such as education and health care. This year is
no different with the Governor and legislators falling over themselves to see
who can propose the largest cuts.
Well the "faith leaders" with power over the reps aren't in this
Anonymous100 said: "As I understand it, the federal government will match
funds for states who adopt Medicaid Expansion for the first 2 years, then they
reduce their contribution to 90% meaning the state picks up the other 10%,
that's 10% more than what the state is currently spending. Where is the
money going to come from? If the federal government wants to expand Medicaid,
then expand it - all of it - forever. Don't hit the states with an
additional 10% "tax."Actually, Utah was already paying into
the 100% / 90% that the feds are returning to states smart enough to cover the
poor, but Utah prefers to give that money to other states to supplement their
citizens, cause their arrogance and hatred for all things Obama. So
It's nice of you to give to other states without wanting any of your money
back.The best managed state, managed to give away your health care
taxes to other states.
I think the CJCLDS is doing its share when it comes to charity spending on
average $40million/year. Reference the article in the Deseret news on July 12,
2016 - "LDS Church welfare, humanitarian efforts average $40 million
per year, apostle says"What have you done for your fellow man
"dordrecht" and "Impartial7"? Give Matthew 7:16-20 a
read some time.
I agree with the faith leaders 100%. We spend so much on message bills and
things like the Inland Port that spending money on health care is a great return
on the dollar.
As I understand it, the federal government will match funds for states who adopt
Medicaid Expansion for the first 2 years, then they reduce their contribution to
90% meaning the state picks up the other 10%, that's 10% more than what the
state is currently spending. Where is the money going to come from? If the
federal government wants to expand Medicaid, then expand it - all of it -
forever. Don't hit the states with an additional 10% "tax."
Were the UAB and FLDS included? They are part of the community of faith in
I too, found it curious that the only faith based group that matters to the
legislature wasn't there?Guess they don't stand for
compassion and helping the poor and sick. They seem to prefer
prohibition of things by civil law which they already forbid their members from
doing, but feel the need to impose them on the general public too.I
hope it's an oversight, for my LDS friends who have compassion for their
neighbors and fellow man.
I oppose it too. I'm really tired of paying for insurance (and everything
else) for "less fortunate" people when I can't get insurance
No names or pictures of the predominant faith leaders. Certainly the leaders of
the Church of JESUS CHRIST would have compassion enough to favor the lot of
those without insurance. After all, Jesus Himself had compassion for the
Nice sentiments. But, only one faith matters in Utah. And, 90% of our lawmakers
belong to that faith. If they supported Medicaid, you'd have a passing