using "scripture" to prove that there is a god
handing out "scripture". Fulfilled prophecy,
“scripture” is not circular reasoning. (Amos 3:7) “He would do
nothing without first revealing it to His servants, the prophets.” From
the Old Covenant to the New, God provides picture after picture of ‘His
plan for mankind ‘and one of the prophetic pictures is outlined in the
Jewish feasts of Lev 23. The 7 feasts of Israel were spread over 7
months of the Jewish calendar, at set times appointed by God. . But for both
Jews and non-Jews who have placed their faith in Jesus, the Jewish Messiah,
these special days demonstrate the work of redemption(From Adams fall) through
God’s Son. The first 4 of the7 feasts occur during the
springtime (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Festival of Weeks(
shavout), and they all have already been fulfilled by Christ in the N. T. Passover (Lev 23:5) – Pointed to the Messiah(Jesus) as our Passover lamb
(1 Cor 5:7) whose blood would be shed for our sins. Jesus was crucified on the
day of preparation for the Passover at the same hour that the lambs were being
slaughtered for the Passover meal that evening (John 19:14).
@CMTM; That's circular log; using "scripture" to
prove that there is a god handing out "scripture". It's a logical
fallacy. @Mike Richards; My degree is in
Computer Science. The thing about your analogy is that one can prove that/how
transistors work. You can measure the amount of current going in and coming
out. You can determine the state, whether it is on/off, open/closed, 1/0.
It's all testable and provable. Unlike your wishes about a
supernatural being or a soul. You can't prove that there is a god nor a
soul, you can't test it or determine it's state. You can't know
if there is something before a person is born, or if there is something after
they die (input/output). All you can determine is 1) Life, 2) death. Therefore
your analogy is faulty. Religion can't be "properly taught
with proper authority" because that "authority" is supposedly given
from a fictional being. Religion "properly used" does quite a bit,
admittedly, but that still doesn't prove god. Sadly, the vast majority of
religious leaders (even yours) don't use religion "properly".
Ranch, I'm in the computer process control business. I use
transistors and transistor logic to create control computers that automate
industry. No matter how carefully I try to explain computer logic and the
operational principles behind transistors, there are always those who look at a
transistor, see only piece of plastic and then try to argue with me that because
they can only see a piece of plastic, that a transistor is nothing but a piece
of plastic. In their desire to be ignorant of what a transistor can do, if
properly used, they limit themselves to a world where only those things that
they believe in exist. Meanwhile, knowing what a transistor is and how it
works, I can use a tiny amount of power to control an enormous amount of power.
Those who reject God because God has not forced himself on them may
tell us that God does not exist. Those of us who accept God, know that being
ignorant of God, God's love for us, and God's creative power does not
equate to God not existing. Religion, properly taught with proper
authority, teaches us how to know God. Religion, properly used, aids in
R: Ranch, ..” there is, in fact, a "spirit" and a "god".
The LORD=(Jehovah) "God"= (Elohim) formed the man from the
soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the
man became a living being. (Gen 2:7 NET)For you are dust, And to
dust you shall return.”(Gen 3:19) and the dust returns to the ground it
came from, and the "Spirit" returns to God who gave it.(Ecc 12:7) Man is a unique combination of earthly, natural material and
life-giving power from God Himself. Such a mode of creation highlights the
importance and value of human life. RE” Neither are required
for our bodies to function as-is”. Wrong, “ For in him we live
and move and have our being(Acts 17:28) Creation is dependent on God for its
very existence. God who gives life to the dead and Calls into being
things that were not.’(Romans 4:17 NIV)(Jesus)Do not be afraid
of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the
One who can destroy both soul and body in (gÉenna)= hell.(Mt 10:28)
No, Mike. YOU need to prove that there is, in fact, a "spirit" and a
"god". Neither are required for our bodies to function as-is.
Ranch,I'm afraid that you have things backwards. You and I
have bodies with spirits that make the body alive. Until you can prove that the
spirit, on its own, can liven the body without the divine spark, then your lack
of evidence to the contrary proves that God exists. The law of entropy debunks
any "proof" of a Godless creation. Things, on their own, wind down.The spirit inside each of us, if listened to, longs to communicate with
God. It knows where it originated. The spirit knows where it wants to spend
eternity. Religion, administered by proper authority has answers. Religion,
using Christlike charity, compels those who have not squashed their spirits, to
give relief, to succor the sick, to clothe the naked, to feed the hungry. The
decline in religion is expected when people turn inward instead of outward. When
the most important being in creation is self, entropy takes over and the spirits
of men die, never to return to that God who gave them life.
The challenge in the article has less to do with religious beliefs of
individuals than with the organization of individuals into groups. Individual
belief or nonbelief is ineffective in marshalling efficient action to alleviate
pain and suffering that arises from disaster.In disaster, it must be
possible to marshal organized groups of people for maximum quick relief.
Gathering loose individuals is difficult. Traditionally, Americans
have gathered to churches, synagogues and mosques. Those are still the most
organized large groups of people who assemble for a long period of time. If
those groups disappear, who will pick up the slack? Putting together
such a group and keeping it active is not easy or inexpensive. Any nonreligious
group who wants to try will need funds for a place to meet and have activities.
If it is the government, it will take an increase in taxes. It's unfortunate that, despite this really important role of churches,
synagogues and mosques in America, some people try to destroy their place in our
nation. It is also sad that some churches, synagogues and mosques, in opposition
to that gathering purpose, are so divisive against unbelievers.
@Mike R;Unless you can prove your god exists, then all your
"eternal" blather is just that: blather.
Which disaster relief should people focus on? Should they be more concerned
with the body or with the soul? Religion, properly understood and properly
used, administers disaster relief to both body and soul. Natural disasters are
occassional events where community can and should assist. Personal moral
disasters are part of each day. Decisions are made daily that have eternal
consequences. Making wrong decisions by listening to people who encourage
selecting the wrong option has far greater impact on our eternal journey than
being without food or shelter for a short time. If we accept and
understand John 17:3 (And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the
only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.), then we accept and
understand the importance of having Christ as our leader. Rejecting
Christ's role means that we're on our own. Good luck with that.
@the greater truth "And yet you failed name even one."Well,
I know that Bill Gates is one of the most philanthropic people on the entire
planet and an agnostic.
I agree with Sam Harris' take on religion for the most part. The worst part
about religion is 'dogma' (defined as "principle or set of
principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true based on faith not
on facts."), where adherents are not willing to rationally discuss through.
This causes all sorts of religious adherents to act immorally, when they
otherwise would not have.If you remove all 'dogma' from
religion and just had mutually defined humanist morality, it could potentially
be a source for good, and might attract back some of the largest growing group
in the US which is those that are unaffiliated with any religion.
Perhaps faith based groups should examine why people are leaving organized
religions. Hint: discriminating against others, playing politics, etc. These
things turn people away from your organizations.@Chris B:You sure "walk" the walk. Christ told you to treat others as
you'd like to be treated. Fail. Suffer ALL the little children to come
unto Christ. Fail again. Help the poor and needy. Fail. No, the
"religious right" has become a political PAC, nothing more.
@The Atheist"Many of the wealthiest philanthropists in the world
have been atheists. Many of the greatest scientific advances in human history,
that have saved countless lives and improved living conditions, have been by
atheists."And yet you failed name even one.Also,
many of the wealthiest philanthropists in the world have been religious. Many of
the greatest scientific advances in human history, that have saved countless
lives and improved living conditions, have been by the religious.As
a non-believer, you seem to be seeing what you want to see.
People aren't going to church anymore because most have turned into watered
down, politically correct, social clubs. They are too fearful to teach the hard
truths from the scriptures.I don't need to go to church to hear
social justice. I can watch a modern Disney movie for that.
10CC - Bountiful, UTJan. 5, 2019 9:13 a.m.Recovering from disaster
has always been a "blended" effort. (How many churches own
bulldozers?)How many bulldozers are owned by religious people? I
know thousands of tons of equipment and thousands of hours of labor that are
provided (donated) to help anyone in need by religious people. I'm sure
there is the same from non-religious too.
UtahBlueDevil,"But the problem is ...... atheist are just as
tribal."As a general rule, atheists are not joiners, and being
atheist is not a major identifying factor. As such, atheists are rarely
"tribal"."And its hard to find the greater good the
atheist have achieved as well. Where are the atheist based charities, hospitals,
orphanages.... etc?"Many of the wealthiest philanthropists in
the world have been atheists. Many of the greatest scientific advances in human
history, that have saved countless lives and improved living conditions, have
been by atheists.As a believer, you seem to be seeing what you want
to see."You see them here daily telling everyone how much better
and smarter they are."I have never seen an atheist post a
comment telling anyone they are better than them. That's a uniquely
religious thing. Atheists tend to simply point out the truth."rather than just letting people believe as their consciences
dictate."The wicked taketh the truth to be hard.
I've responded to disasters with the Church, Red Cross and with the
Government. Each has it's place. Church & Red Cross
offered more personal help. The Church was the least organized. Lots of help
but few brought tools and many didn't even have gloves. But lots of
heart.The Red Cross was moderately organized with lists of people
that needed help but no feedback. We went to the houses on a list but found
that their needs had already been met so we kept going until we hit a house that
needed help.The Government provided help on a massive scale.
Katrina overwhelmed the system and was a learning experience, but my other
deployments supporting FEMA were very organized to the point we arrived once
before the storm hit. We did things the community couldn't, like energize
community shelters with emergency generators. It was frustrating to
leave my world behind without notice and hear the local conservative talk radio
criticize the federal response for entertainment. For those who
think local control is better, the States always control the priorities for
asset deployment. All our missions always originated from the State Emergency
@The Atheist - I get where you are coming from.... one of the worst side
effects of organized religion is the "tribalism" that seems to grow
freely there. When you have churches bashing each other when in reality they
believe in 90 plus percent the same stuff.... you've got problems. And
that is why many youth today are forgoing organized religions as being too
political - and are focusing on spirituality instead.But the problem
is ...... atheist are just as tribal. And its hard to find the greater good
the atheist have achieved as well. Where are the atheist based charities,
hospitals, orphanages.... etc? Cuba? Rather most atheist are focused on
telling other people they are doing it wrong, and are just as tribal as the
groups the claim to be better than. You see them here daily telling everyone
how much better and smarter they are.... rather than just letting people believe
as their consciences dictate. Tribalism.... its a human condition
that ruins a lot of good things.
People in churches may give more in an organized way than unaffiliated people.
But that doesn't mean they give more to disaster relief. Tithing donations
are not necessarily used the same way as humanitarian donations.Even
though my church sometimes does things or initiates policies I really dislike, I
make most of my humanitarian donations through them because they have lower
overhead and better organization. I like the Red Cross, but they apply donations
to a much smaller percentage of real assistance than my church does. Their CEOs
and other officers are paid way too much, in my opinion.I've heard
that the Salvation Army is one of the best in terms of actual help applied to
the people who need it, with relatively much smaller salaries to top people. I
don't have a problem with people being paid, but keep it reasonable.Maybe part of the problem of people being alienated from their churches has to
do with the political identity of that church. Supposedly, churches are meant to
be neutral. But more and more they lean to the right. The far right in many
cases. If a person doesn't agree with that perspective, they may leave for
another church, or no church.
Why do churches pat themselves on the back? If the really did as much as they
claim then government wouldn't need to provide welfare. Churches help a bit
but not as much as they want to believe.
RE: The Atheist, Organized religion, a few Examples :@The Catholic
Church is "the largest [non-governmental] provider of health care services
in the world." How large? "It has around 18,000 clinics . . . and 5,500
hospitals, with 65 percent of them located in developing countries." By one
estimate, the Catholic Church "manages 26 percent of the world's health
care facilities." Wikipedia This doesn't even take into account
hospitals run by other Christian bodies such as Baptists, Methodists, and
especially Seventh-Day Adventists.@The Salvation Army exists to meet
human need wherever, whenever, and however we can. We serve in 130 countries
around the globe.@Firefighters For Christ International .
"Freely you have received, freely give" Matthew 10:8b
Chris B tries to shame liberals for not giving, but liberals give to causes that
emphasize equality or protection from harm, while conservatives give to causes
whose emphasis is on purity and loyalty to the community. All give, in
different ways and for different reasons.
"For all it's flaws, organized religion is the greatest stabilizing
force in the world."For all it's falsity, tribalism, and
corruption, organized religion is the greatest DE-stabilizing force in the
world.Fixed it for you...
Local social groups that share a common interest are valuable in providing quick
aid when disasters occur. Churches are one of many such groups. As religious
participation declines, will other social groups arise and replace religious
groups? Possibly over time. Our social culture is evolving. I find
the premise lacking that religion provides meaning following disaster. How do
you find meaning in the arbitrary and capricious nature of disaster that its
“God’s will”? Why is my neighbor is spared (blessed) while I
have lost all? Personal righteousness is questioned. God seems to be violating
a principle of discipline by not providing a reason prior to administering it.
What I see from religion is no meaning assigned following disaster,
but a resignation that the meaning is a manifestation of god’s mysterious
ways, or those who have a special “god sense” will try to explain
what the meaning is in vague, incomprehensible language. The religious will
feign comfort, while inwardly their soul continues to roil with uncertainty
about the nature of their reality. The only real comfort, is that others are
similarly suffering and may be able to empathize with their own.
It's not that atheists are less generous or less compassionate in general.
It's that they don't provide community centers the way religious
groups do. There are some, but not as frequent or as widely distributed as faith
communities. Given that the community centers in areas near disaster-stricken
areas are often quick to mobilize and have long-term presences, this is where we
see a major impact on disaster relief and recovery when those community centers
dwindle or disappear.
Would it be helpful for human beings to stop dividing into groups of
conservatives and liberals? Could we possibly realize that we are ALL made in
the image and likeness of our creator? After all, if we as so called
"religious" folks (religion being defined as re-binding with the soul),
believe that "our group" is better and holier than the other group, we
are not re-binding with much of anything but our own self-centeredness. Just
Recovering from disaster has always been a "blended" effort. (How many
churches own bulldozers?)From a religious person's standpoint,
there should be zero motivation for an Atheist to help someone without expecting
compensation... but I see it all the time.I wouldn't worry so
much about lower levels of religion impacting disaster relief. If anything,
fewer people going to church might cause more people to address the source of
increasing weather disaster intensity.
This article nailed it. Having lived in southeast Louisiana over forty years, I
have seen MANY natural disasters, the worst being Katrina and the Baton Rouge
flood of 2016. There were lots of good people that helped – some had no
affiliation with religion, but it was the churches that organized, fed, and led
the relief efforts before the government ever set boots on the ground. And
imagine this – the different religions actually worked together for the
good of all. There was no squabbling over politics or beliefs. So, we need to
beware – sometimes you don’t realize how much you need something
until it’s not there.
Real Maverick you forget David was not perfect and Ezra T Benson also said one
will come forth not of our faith who would lead us. Trump has been up against
the Gaddianton robbers and has triumphed against every obstacle. Nobody else
could withstand these hateful people without the Lord's help. Think about
Like so many left leaning folks, Fullypresent uses exaggeration and half truths
in a weak effort to persuade. What about all the many non-millionaire pastors
or church leaders who serve without compensation? But don't let facts about
the good religion does in the world stand in the way of venting personal
frustrations and ill will.
And atheists are not out there helping people as well? Sweeping generalizations
are rarely true.
Wow an article about declining religious participation and already two comments
out of three blame election of Trump on religious voters. Can you read? The
article is about declining religious participation, that means fewer religious
people. I voted for Trump, but not because of the great religious or morals of
this country, but because the USA now lacks religious and moral values.
Obviously Mitt Romney can't win in this country, so Trump isn't a
religious choice -- he is the non-religious choice.
Children who believe in Santa are also more likely to help around the house. But that doesn't make Santa real. Many organized crime
families donate generously to charities. But that doesn't make
their filthy lucre legal.
Blessaid is he pure in heart for they shall see God. You matter, that's the
Spirit of things. I think that the big name brands might be declining but
the nondenominational churches are increasing. More people are going to the
Great I Am (God), their power, Jesus. Ya have to find " It" all by
Declining religious practice inhibits the growth of religion via disaster
recovery efforts. It's the same idea.
The need for a God is hard-wired into humans. I wonder if something constructive
will take the place of traditional churches?
I'm afraid natural disasters are going to pale in comparison to the moral
disaster that is coming as more reject religion. For all it's flaws,
organized religion is the greatest stabilizing force in the world.
The New York Times did a study a few years ago that confirmed what many of us
knew - that religious conservatives gave more money away, both as a percentage
of income and total dollars, than religious liberals, non religious liberals,
and non religious conservatives. This was true even after excluding
money to churches and the arts, which some argue aren’t helping the needy.
As in most things, the religious right walks where the left talks
No small wonder why. Read the latest interview that Evangelical Jerry Farwell
Jr. had with the wash post. That, combined with evangelical’s ever
enduring loyalty to Donald Trump, and I say good riddance. The Book of Mormon
warned us about moral relativism. Those who draw near to him with lips but by
their actions distance themselves. It’s obvious that Christianity in
America needs a restoration. It needs to be more focused on the actual teachings
of Christ and not the ambitions of rich and powerful people who want to continue
to divide Americans to maintain control over them. Religion shouldn’t be
used as a political coalition to beat down minority groups you don’t like.
They are needed but the far, hard core right who are generally Christians that
brought us the Trump mess the past two years, the terrible scandals in the
Catholic Church, and the millionaire pastors taking advantage of so many people
have turned many off to religions.