Morning links: 'Not one (school) moved the needle' — Big 12 commissioner recounts why his league didn't expand

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  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Dec. 9, 2018 1:23 p.m.

    WACmidmajor:

    What are you talking about? What "straws" am I allegedly grasping at? Seems to me that it's the other way around. Because ESPN most certainly DID report that they were paying the indy-WACers "nearly $4 million", and Holmoe most certainly HAD published a chart reflecting their media revenues only amounted to "7%" of all revenue sources. And the idablue reported that the indy-WACers reported $67 million in gross revenues.

    I've already don the math for you. Literally everything I'd stated above is a proven fact, and can be verified on the internet. So please be specific.....what "straws" am I allegedly grasping at? And don't say the "nearly $4 million" or "7%" part, because those facts had already been PROVEN to be true.

  • pacmidmajor Springville, UT
    Dec. 8, 2018 12:09 p.m.

    Sorry navalprivate but you are as always just grasping for straws ......

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Dec. 7, 2018 11:30 p.m.

    WACmidmajor:

    We absolutely DO know how much money the cougars are getting from their ESPN contract! And we KNOW this because BOTH parties already told us. ESPN said they're paying them "nearly $4 million" per year, and Holmoe published a report reflecting gross revenues from the media to be only 7%.

    And for the record "ESPN 960" isn't owned by "ESPN", and Ryan Teeples isn't an ESPN correspondent, but rather a paid employee of the indy-WACers.

    So yeah, we DO know! They TOLD us!

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Dec. 7, 2018 11:26 p.m.

    london_josh:

    I'm going to go with "the MWC would never take byu back". Period.

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    Dec. 7, 2018 8:49 p.m.

    Either byu has no value or byu has so much value that they'd demand special rights.

    So those arguing with each other and going back and forth with arguments - choose your point and stick with it.

    You can't go from "the MWC would never take byu back" to "byu has so much value that they'd need a special deal".

  • pacmidmajor Springville, UT
    Dec. 7, 2018 3:34 p.m.

    naval vet, as per ESPN 960 radio March of 2018 ... BYU's current contract(which was negotiated in 2010 before inflation hit college football) with ESPN in somewhere between 6-10 Million dollars annually .... so that tells me that NO One really knows except for the men in command at the Y and ESPN and i really do not think that you fit either one of those bills ......

  • pacmidmajor Springville, UT
    Dec. 7, 2018 3:09 p.m.

    I actually think that the pac12 would have more to gain if BYU actually joined their conference....They would immediately add 1 more College Football Unanimous National Championship to the conference ! in fact at that point the Y would be the last team from that conference to win a Unanimous College Football Championship....(2004 does not count because everyone knows that usc vacated that title when they were caught for cheating )... now that is mind blowing !!

  • Wild Ute Sandy, UT
    Dec. 7, 2018 11:41 a.m.

    london_josh - Lincoln, CA If the BIG12 wanted BYU it would have happened already. BYU football attendance is dwindling the fans dont care and being independent is killing BYU. They should go back to the MWC and maybe without Utah and TCU they might start to dominate again.
    Holmoe and Sitake are great for the dying program down South.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 7, 2018 11:36 a.m.

    “Moving the goal post much?
    You mentioned the financial value byu brings to the MWC, that's my point.”

    london_josh-er:

    No, you missed the field goal.

    First, I mentioned the foolishness of assuming real ESPN would want, or be able, to pay more money than the coogs are now getting to the MWC if BYU-P were to join (remember, ESPN doesn’t have exclusive rights, they share w/ CBS). Second, I mentioned the complete certainty that even if ESPN paid the same as the coogs are getting now (still questionable), the the coogs would want it all. (There’s no question BYU-P has a history in that regard, e.g., their TV rights demands that kept them out of the BigXII 7 years ago. That would bring NO value to the MWC. And that is MY point.

    Agree, or disagree?

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    Dec. 7, 2018 10:06 a.m.

    "The question may be whether UT is willing to accept others playing in their sandbox."

    And this comes right after a 3 game series in which byu lost a game they shutoff have won by a point in Texas, then took Texas apart surgically in an ugly lopsided game, then did it again.

    That was good football, not good diplomacy.

    However, the longhorns present an opportunistic problem. They'll continue to be a prima Donna in the bigxii which has 10 members, eventually that causes a shift and then byu will likely get in without the public debate that was the only real negative for BYU.

    No team moved the needle because the goal was the theatrics of a debate that gave the conference other benefits. One day they'll have to expand, and I think byu is nearly a lock when they do and they'll do it quietly if they are serious.

  • BrianB Greencastle, IN
    Dec. 7, 2018 9:46 a.m.

    Mountainman, well put. However, the question may not be whether BYU is willing to pay the price. UTexas has proven to be unreasonable. That is why the strong schools (with the exception of Oklahoma) have gone. The question may be whether UT is willing to accept others playing in their sandbox.

  • Mountainman38 Idaho Falls, ID
    Dec. 6, 2018 9:08 p.m.

    You are not considering the political history of the Big 12/10. The University of Texas calls the shots in the conference. That is why Nebraska, Missouri, Colorado and even Texas A&M departed. Previously U of Texas had destroyed the old Southwest Conference and dumped TCU, SMU, Rice and Houston. Then they persuaded the football powerhouse Big 8 to take the remaining four Texas orphans into their powerful football conference. Within a few years Texas gained power and began calling the shots in the new conference, and schools began to leave. So if BYU wants to join the Big 12, you will have to pay tribute to and not cross the U of Texas. If they will have BYU, is BYU willing to pay the price?

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    Dec. 6, 2018 8:23 p.m.

    John,

    Moving the goal post much?

    You mentioned the financial value byu brings to the MWC, that's my point.

    Then you mentioned problems with sharing - that's not historical and not part of the conversation. It's would BYU be attractive financially to the MWC, so if BYU went to ask the MWC for admission, would they want BYU in or not?

    Do you agree or disagree?

    Nobody is talking about BYU getting extra rights, that's a completely different situation.

  • Jonjacobjinglehimersmith Moab, UT
    Dec. 6, 2018 3:10 p.m.

    I'm a BYU grad, so is my wife and so is my daughter. I'm in favor of intercollegiate athletics completely being cut from the BYU. The high coach salaries and the corruption by boosters is detrimental to the integrity of the institution. BYU would survive just fine without athletics.

  • BrianB Greencastle, IN
    Dec. 6, 2018 3:06 p.m.

    It's interesting to watch what happens with a discussion like this. I was in the midwest at the time of the decision by the Big-12. I followed it closely in midwest media. Fox was never brought up. The coverage was all based upon whether the reeling Big 12 would get over it's internal problems and make a decision to expand and stay competitive with the other conferences. BYU's stance on homosexuality was an issue with some, but there seemed to be a majority willing to accept them. Houston was the other strong candidate, but there was concern that the conference would be too Texas-heavy.

    The reason for BYU's appeal was mostly financial. When TV crosses into more markets, there is a large difference in size of contract. That is why the SEC took Missouri and why the PAC took Utah and Colorado. However, there was reported to be concern on the part of UTexas that expanding might take away some of their power. The commissioners comments were political babble and nothing more.

  • 81Ute Central, UT
    Dec. 6, 2018 2:52 p.m.

    @london_josh

    It seems that only you and a handful of angry and hurt byu fans seem to care why we have collegiate football.

    Business or no business
    Fun or not fun
    Bigotry or enlightenment
    Persecution or acceptance

    I could not care any less about why they play football I am just glad that they do play football.

    Peace brother.

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 6, 2018 2:41 p.m.

    "Yet, we're ironically called morons when trying to explain basic economic concepts to them."

    london_josh-er:

    You are not explaining anything when you cavalierly dismiss as "stupid" the reasons why the MWC would not gain any financial advantage for their existing members by inviting a diva who would demand all the extra money from a TV contract, assuming it was even offered.

    It seems you're the one being emotional, thinking every conference should fall all over themselves to get the coogs. We KNOW that isn't happening.

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    Dec. 6, 2018 2:17 p.m.

    For people who flip burgers for a living and think that they work in a restaurant rather than a business - this concept that sports is a business seems to be lost on some feeble minds. They just don't seem to understand that teams and universities want money. They don't play football "because it's the right thing to do" - it's because they earn a ton of cash doing it and they earn more in ways not directly associated with sales than directly associated with ticket sales.

    Yet, we're ironically called morons when trying to explain basic economic concepts to them.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Dec. 6, 2018 10:06 a.m.

    idablu:

    "BYU received around $10 million from ESPN alone."

    MYTH! I know this for a FACT! ESPN already told us how much they pay you, and it ain't $10 million. It's "nearly $4 million". And Holmoe himself eventually corroborated this by publishing only 7% of their operating revenues are coming from TV and radio. And I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this "7%" was actually "rounded up".

    For the mathematically disinclined indy-WACers, 7.0% of this alleged $67 million is $4.69 million. So that means the Y is getting nearly $4 million from ESPN, with the remaining $0.69+ million balance from radio.

    Again, this FACT is coming from BOTH parties -- ESPN and Tom Holmoe. Time to let this already debunked myth die.

  • Cougar_Trojan_Spurs_Fan San Diego, CA
    Dec. 6, 2018 9:54 a.m.

    Also, I think the commissioner would be taken more seriously if he had come out and said "no TWO teams moved the needle. If I recall correctly, at the time, BYU had several of the B12 schools actively pushing for BYU to be included in conf expansion. They were looking for suitable schools to be travel partners in order to not require teams like West Virginia to have to travel such a long distance for some of the Olympic sports in order to balance out the two leagues that would have been created within the conference. Once the NCAA removed the requirement that a conference have 12 teams with two leagues in order to play a conf championship game, suddenly the need to expand wasn't there.

    But for anyone to say that there wasn't any team that moved the needle is disingenuous!

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 6, 2018 9:47 a.m.

    “Financially it's stupid for BYU to go to the MWC, and equally stupid to think that the MWC would deny BYU entry.
    Nobody has made a good point for the MWC denying entry from a financial point of view, only an emotional point of view.”

    london_josh-er:

    Typical coog hubris. ESPN is in deep financial trouble, yet you know that BYU-P would demand the same, or better, TV revenue than Boise State got (they take 2-3x the other schools). It would be stupid to think that ESPN would cough up the same dollars to the MWC, and even more stupid to think they would invite a thirteenth school that would want to hog the limited financial pie and leave the rest with the same crumbs.

  • Cougar_Trojan_Spurs_Fan San Diego, CA
    Dec. 6, 2018 9:45 a.m.

    @ArizonaUte

    If Fox saw no ROI to paying to have 2 (or possibly even 4 at the time) teams join the conference, then why pay the conf big bucks to stay put and keep the status quo? If no team "moved the needle", then why did Fox feel so threatened that more teams would join that they threw big money at the B12 to *not* expand? If no team moved the needle, then Fox shouldn't have had to pay a dime to the conference. That just isn't the case!

    I thought this was just common sense?!?!?!

  • top of the world ,
    Dec. 6, 2018 9:22 a.m.

    BJ Moose...other than your not liking my Cougs, what is your point? As far as getting back into the MWC (which I hope they do not attempt) they would be welcomed back immediately were they to indicate interest in joining that very good conference. There's not a school in the MWC that I do not feel good about. Great bunch of institutions, with teams such as Fresno, Utah State and Boise, all of which would have a very good chance at beating the U this year, especially the latter two. I point that out only as an indication of how good I think they are because I certainly feel the Utes have improved over the past few years. I actually predicted that this was going to be the big year for them.

    Expansion will come, no question in my mind about that. However, I do question whether or not the Y will be included due to the Sunday-play issue. That's really the only real issue because many schools have strict 'honor code' type of policies in place. A perfect fit for me would be Boise and the Y joining the PAC, my favorite conference for many decades. But, I don't see that taking place. In the meantime, stay indy and keep working on getting better.

    Happy Holidays, everyone.

  • Chessermesser West Valley City, UT
    Dec. 6, 2018 5:44 a.m.

    I still find it funny that the Big 12 doesn’t have 12 teams.

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    Dec. 5, 2018 10:12 p.m.

    While I watch nick emery play again, I'm reminded what people keep forgetting - NCAA is a huge business where schools and the organization and coaches can make a ton of money, and the players can't make any money. We all pretend it's a sport, it's entertainment for us and business for others.

    Fans pretend that it's a fair sport, it's not, it's not designed to be. Schools care because of money attached and advertising for donations, endowments and even students.

    Financially it's stupid for BYU to go to the MWC, and equally stupid to think that the MWC would deny BYU entry.

    Nobody has made a good point for the MWC denying entry from a financial point of view, only an emotional point of view.

    nobody has made a good point of BYU going into the MWC on anything based on emotions.

    BYU sits in the gap between the P5 teams and the G5 teams, noticeably under the P5 revenue while significantly over the G5 revenue - yet the future is in their control.

    I don't blame the BigXII for not selecting BYU, they didn't need to as a business. That doesn't mean that they never will. When teams need to adjust, BYU looks good. Until then, revenue is where it should be, so independence works.

  • LadyMoon Pittsburgh, PA
    Dec. 5, 2018 10:11 p.m.

    Bowlsby’s Big-12 is the last conference in the heep. They won’t expand. BYU football looks more like, “Requiem for a Heavyweight ”, sadly, then a conference-bound, winning program. .

  • idablu Idaho Falls, ID
    Dec. 5, 2018 7:59 p.m.

    London Josh and Byufootballrocks are correct. It’s all about money. Financially, any G5 conference would be irresponsible not to take BYU if the opportunity arose.
    But from a business perspective, why would BYU want to join any G5 conference? They would take a huge hit in revenue.
    In 2017 BYU ranked 55 ($67 million) in revenue among all universities, exceeding many P5 schools and #1 among G5 schools. If you take away the state (taxpayer) subsidies to the G5 schools, the disparity in revenue between BYU and other G5 schools is even greater.
    In just TV revenue Boise State took in 2.9 million. The rest of the MWC schools averaged a little over $1 million in TV revenue. BYU received around $10 million from ESPN alone.
    Instead of being denigrated, Tom Holmoe should be applauded for looking out for BYU’s best financial interest. For the time being, BYU has faired very well on this independent venture. And it is successful because they do, in fact, have a good national following, especially from vitriolic Ute fans who comment here and follow everything BYU obsessively. I thank you good folks for helping make BYU financially successful.

  • Tomahawk Red Miami Beach, FL
    Dec. 5, 2018 7:54 p.m.

    Hate to say it but that's what non byu fans have been saying for a long time. There just aren't any obvious slam dunk candidates for expansion.

    Sure, byu would bring some positives. No doubt. But it's nowhere near the full tilt clear cut bona fide P5 caliber program the fans would have everyone believe.

    Plus, if you're a power five league, the question must be asked how much of the positives would be negated by the negative perception associated. I think a lot of the powers in charge would say the cost to benefit isn't good enough to justify adding byu.

    I'll say this. I wouldn't mind at all if byu joined the Big 12. In fact, I prob prefer it, because it ups Utahs schedule strength and makes for an interesting power five out of conference match up. I don't favor them joining the Pac, however. They just aren't anywhere near a good fit for that league.

    Hopefully the Big 12 changes its mind someday. As much as I dislike byu, I'd applaud them joining that league.

    Also hopefully this news opens y fans' eyes a bit and proves to them they aren't anywhere near as valuable in the CFB world they think they are.

  • AZUTE1 Mesa, AZ
    Dec. 5, 2018 6:24 p.m.

    'Not one (school) moved the needle'

    Lol.....Priceless.

    Midmajor forever.

    Go Utes!

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Dec. 5, 2018 6:23 p.m.

    An 8 team playoff seems about right to me. It should include the conference champion of each P5 league, the highest ranked G5 conference champion, and 2 at-large bids.

    And london_josh -- you're delusional if you think the MWC would ever consider bringing you aboard. They already KNOW that your "traveling fanbase" and "national brand" is a myth. You don't move the needle for them either. Plus, they're ALREADY at 12 teams. Why add a 13th?

  • THEREALND Mishawaka, IN
    Dec. 5, 2018 5:44 p.m.

    @Stanfunky

    "No more independents. Notre Dame joins a conference"

    Sorry Stan. Not going to happen. Notre Dame has been independent since 1887. It is a way of life. Not a short term experiment waiting for something better to come along. Has had a lucrative contract with NBC since 1992. However, there was a time when they wanted to join what was to become the BIG10. They didn't want ND then, and ND doesn't want the Big10 now.

    "Many fans are unaware of the fact that the Western Conference (the predecessor to the Big Ten) blackballed Notre Dame in the early part of the 20th century. The University of Michigan, far and away the most powerful and school at the time, stopped playing Notre Dame's budding football program and convinced the other members of the conference in an indirect attempt to squelch ND's growth before they became a legitimate threat.

    Michigan's strategy failed. In fact, it helped make Notre Dame into what it is today. Since they couldn't find local opponents, the Irish decided to storm the country to find opponents. This strategy led to Notre Dame developing a vast, national fan base as opposed to a regionalized one like Michigan."

  • ArizonaUte SLC, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 4:15 p.m.

    @london_josh - Lincoln, CA

    What Bowlsby is saying, however, is that for the B12, no program, including BYU, moved the needle.

    That means media outlets like Fox, saw no material ROI from any candidate, including BYU. They were unwilling to pay the $ for any of the expansion candidates, including BYU.

    They will invest if there is a pay back.

    BYU might raise the financial profile of the MWC (although you'd need some actual proof of that) but they certainly wouldn't have for the B12, according to the media sponsors who give the big pay-outs.

    They did the math and decided it would be less costly for them to just pay the B12 more $ to NOT expand with any of the candidates, including BYU.

    It's a business decision. They did the real analysis and the ROI just wasn't there. They know their business. They know the metrics. They know what to look for and how to find it. It's what they do.

  • SameJersey Kaysville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 3:59 p.m.

    The path for BYU to a P5 lies only by and through affiliation with either the American or re-affiliation MWC -- end.

    The American is a no go -- it is an East Coast conference and it makes no sense for them or for BYU -- the travel costs alone would be horrendous.

    Also, BYU would still have to find at least one other partner to join the American from the West, and I don't see that happening.

    That means, despite what BYU fans say, there is only one path forward for their program -- that is the MWC.

    And, the MWC is not just going to let the Cougars back in with open arms either. It is going to cost the Cougars in the form of -- well, what exactly can you do for us?

    Their ace in the hole? ESPN. The Cougars can use their clout with ESPN to renegotiate new television contracts for the whole conference -- and not just BYU.

    Honestly, that is BYU's ONLY path forward at present. Rejoin the MWC. But, you are going to have to make the deal pretty sweet for the entire conference -- i.e., share and share alike. The last piece is that there will be a SUBSTANTIAL exit clause. But, it is either this or face certain long-term college football irrelevancy.

    The choice is with the Cougars.

  • ArizonaUte SLC, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 3:38 p.m.

    @Cougar_Trojan_Spurs_Fan - San Diego, CA
    Dec. 5, 2018 10:21 a.m.

    Seems you are missing the entire point. He basically... IS... being transparent.

    Fox DID pay more to NOT expand. Why you ask?

    Answer:
    Because the extra $$ they would have to pay per team, if they expanded with the candidates available, wasn't going to pay off.

    "Moving the needle" relates to $$$. Was that ever in question?

    The media outlets are businesses and are NOT afraid to invest if they get a good enough ROI.

    Fox did the math (research/analysis). It was financially better for them to pay more to the B12 to prevent expansion, with the candidates they had available.

    That is what he is saying with the phrase, "No program moved the needle"

    This just seems like common sense.

  • kaysvillecougar KAYSVILLE, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 3:34 p.m.

    Next time, I'm going to get the in from Dallas ute because that dude knows what's happening on the college football scene:)

    "Well, WYO, AF, SDSU, CSU, UN, UNM, UNLV, UH and most likely USU, maybe BSU as well, would vote "nay" to a BYU invite."

    That's good info I'm sure. Must have been first hand conversations with those institutions.

  • 81Ute Central, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 3:17 p.m.

    It is a curious activity reading these comments.

    Anti-byu commenters just pushing buttons
    Pro-byu commenters cannot accept that their school in not very desirable

    The universe is in stasis.

  • kaysvillecougar KAYSVILLE, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 2:41 p.m.

    majmajor says, "BYU needs an AD that can build relationships, not one with an over inflated ego. The Big-12 already has Texas.. The Big-12 can’t handle two drama queens."

    Every time I hear from Tom Holmoe, the last thing I see is arrogance. He's a gracious gentleman. I understand you aren't seeing the success you'd like but that doesn't make Tom Holmoe a poor AD. There are circumstances that kept BYU from being included and that's too bad, but that's life. I think he's handled the program with class. I trust that BYU made the best presentation possible, but there were a couple of schools, just like years ago in the Pac10 who for religious/political reasons, would never vote for BYU. What do you expect Tom Holmoe to do? Start grovelling? Would that work? Again, Holmoe is a class act in my opinion.

  • byufootballrocks Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 2:29 p.m.

    @Real Ute
    "Well kind sir, any MWC school president, who actually votes, that voted for BYU would be fired on the spot. You must not realize how BYU is despised and avoided???? The student governments regents, donors, etc.... at EVERY MWC school would go ballistic if BYU was afforded an invite."

    So when was popularity among peers the criteria for fairness in getting into a P5 conference? What has that got to do with competitive football?

    Oklahoma, Texas, Ohio State, Alabama, historically are some of the most hated teams, can you image them being denied privileges among their peers because they are disliked by so many?

    That's silly.

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    Dec. 5, 2018 2:28 p.m.

    Mike,

    "You must not realize how BYU is despised and avoided????"

    It's about money!

    Let me prove that to you - on your list of teams that you say would oppose BYU, which teams have played or will play BYU in football? 2 of them have every year commitments to playing BYU. it's either love or money - and either one, especially the latter, would bring back a MWC vote.

    Remember that it was BYU and Utah primarily that got AF, CSU, SDSU, UNM, UNLV and UWy as the charter members.

    All the respect for you in the world, but you just aren't looking at this as a business decision, which is how an AD must look at it.

    None of those schools will appear bigoted against BYU, because while it might get some smiles, the governments that support them don't want any discrimination of any kind going on. So if they hate BYU then they need to hide it. But the big one is money, you've got schools streaming games on facebook and BYU brings it's network and fans and contracts in.

    I'd vote against it, but the ADs wouldn't dare. Fanbase, stadium and following would elevate the financial situation of the conference overnight.

  • BrianB Greencastle, IN
    Dec. 5, 2018 1:51 p.m.

    One of the biggest reasons the Big 12 did not expand is because they have a hard time getting agreement on virtually anything. A previous poster alluded to U Texas. When A&M and Mizzou fled to the SEC, it left a lesser conference. Oklahoma stayed loyal but probably should have left. There have been disagreements between OU and UT in conference meetings for some time. There was, indeed, some reluctance to accept BYU among a few of the schools based upon bias against homosexuals about the time of the vote. But, if not for the lack of cohesion in the conference, a super majority may still have voted them in. B12's lack of expansion really was more about conference problems than about BYU.

  • Cougar_Trojan_Spurs_Fan San Diego, CA
    Dec. 5, 2018 1:42 p.m.

    Also, another thing to keep in mind is, when the B12 began talks of expansion, the news wires blew up of how poorly BYU's honor code treated LGBTQ people, and the fans of the other teams in the conference threatened boycotts if BYU was allowed to join. That scared off all of the University presidents, who are the ones who make the call, not the athletic directors. If the athletic directors made the call, BYu would likely be a part of the Pac-12, as all of those AD's have mentioned that they feel BYu is a P-5 worthy opponent. The university presidents feel otherwise.

    Boy, talk about tolerance and inclusion! *sarcasm*

  • Real Ute Dallas, TX
    Dec. 5, 2018 1:37 p.m.

    @London Josh,

    The MWC won't allow BYU back in. The BYU delusion that is $ is just a fallacy at best dear buddy.

    You stated that any MWC AD that voted against BYU would be out of a job?????? Well kind sir, any MWC school president, who actually votes, that voted for BYU would be fired on the spot. You must not realize how BYU is despised and avoided???? The student governments regents, donors, etc.... at EVERY MWC school would go ballistic if BYU was afforded an invite. So, it takes 75% of MWC members to vote "yay." Well, WYO, AF, SDSU, CSU, UN, UNM, UNLV, UH and most likely USU, maybe BSU as well, would vote "nay" to a BYU invite.

  • THEREALND Mishawaka, IN
    Dec. 5, 2018 1:21 p.m.

    What actually "moved the needle" in my opinion was the fact that about the time the Big12 was considering expansion, the NCAA took away the requirement that football conferences needed 12 members in order to have a conference championship game. That game alone brings in millions of dollars to the conference. There was no longer a motivation to have 12 teams.

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    Dec. 5, 2018 1:18 p.m.

    "As things currently stand, they’d be fortunate to get back into the MWC"

    I love these comments.

    Any MWC AD who votes against BYU is looking for a new job the following Monday. It's a financial win.

    The HC can hate BYU all it wants, but the AD can't look like a bigot and most of all, they can't hate money and keep their job and BYU is huge money compared with the average MWC team.

    I'd hate to see BYU go back to the MWC, if they did it would happen immediately without opposition.

  • Real Ute Dallas, TX
    Dec. 5, 2018 1:14 p.m.

    I am honestly wondering if Bingham High School would schedule a h-h series with BYU as of now? Iffy, at best, as I ponder the possibility. Almost bankrupt ESPN cannot afford teams that get terrible tv ratings......therefore, they will not renew BYU football.

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    Dec. 5, 2018 1:12 p.m.

    Strom,

    Have you ever heard of the concept of timing?

    It didn't move because it's the wrong time.

    They got onto expansion right after all of the TV market frenzy right before the noticeable shift to internet TV.

    You had the CFP but now the PAC is wondering why they can't get in and USF is saying that 2 perfect seasons in a row should be enough and that's likely to change too.

    You seem to be saying that "if it didn't happen then it will never happen" actually there was no reason for it to have happened then - that's sort of the point of the commissioner's remarks.

    The bigXII will have membership movement, when it does BYU will remain attractive - but the buy-in depends on circumstances attached to the movement, which nobody knows yet.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 5, 2018 1:07 p.m.

    byufootballrocks - Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 9:36 a.m.
    Here's what the truth really is...

    Yes, speak the truth, it's all about money, and the subsequent qualities of power and control.

    ----

    Which is why BYU tried to back door the MWC into the WAC.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 5, 2018 1:02 p.m.

    Not one school, not even the legacy program, with a worldwide brand from down south?

    But, but we've been told...

    "It was hilarious to see the attendance at the 2-6 PAC championship football game...
    Adding BYU to your conference will increase attendance across the board at all venues. Increase TV exposure on BYU TV and ESPN and other networks. Those are facts. The PAC 12 should put pressure on Cal and Stanford to back off and allow the Y in. An alternative maybe is to release Utah and Colorado and go back to 10 teams. The Big 12 makes it work. What value does Utah and Colorado bring anyway?"

    Source:
    blue & white
    Dec. 4, 2018 8:30 a.m.

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    Dec. 5, 2018 12:53 p.m.

    Italian ute,

    I served my mission in Italy, you are right and wrong.

    BYU is a mascot for the church internationally, every member knows who BYU is.

    That being said, unless it's calcio nobody knows sports in Italy or cares, and everybody knows everything there is to know about soccer.

    Beyond Italy, I'm from London and travel a lot. Byu has gained significant benefits from international church groups being the original pineapple express for football. Byu is still a brand in a lot of international church markets - the main difference is that unlike Italy, there are more church members there. A lot of places the church is well known, in Italy it's pretty sparse to say the least. I'd say 75% of people thought I was a JW, 20% thought I was omish, and 5% knew who I was or thought I was CIA.

    As for usage from the church being international - I think it's mismanaged by BYU. Clearly the opportuties exist, but BYU doesn't seem to search for athletes outside of the US and Polynesia. With name recognition (I think byu football is the 5th most known college team internationally) little benefit comes from it. The AD should do better!

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 12:52 p.m.

    real ute

    "BYU and the B12, like the MWC, AAC, Sunbelt or the Big Sky Conference don't want anything to do with the Provo parochial young-adult(?) daycare center."

    Why, sir, do you not understand these you speak of had high test scores in high school and median family income well above their peers at public universities?

    And, clearly, entrance standards being high means the school offers the highest quality education.

    No, this is exclusively the result of persecution

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 12:41 p.m.

    at long...

    "how can it not move the needle?"

    Checks standard responses:

    Refs...No

    Persecution...That's it.

    I'm sure it was the bitterest persecution, and bigotry of course

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 12:39 p.m.

    If they couldn't move it then, I can't see how they ever could moving forward.

    Move on my friends

  • Real Ute Dallas, TX
    Dec. 5, 2018 12:36 p.m.

    BYU and the B12, like the MWC, AAC, Sunbelt or the Big Sky Conference don't want anything to do with the Provo parochial young-adult(?) daycare center.

  • byufootballrocks Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 12:07 p.m.

    @stanfunky:
    "For those saying that Sun Belt, MW, AAC, C-USA and MAC can't compete, just wait - if you guarantee the access to the playoff, it will balance out recruiting as EVERY conference matters and has a shot at the national championship."

    Brilliant. Dead on. This is what the P5 fears the most - parity. With their top - 4 and top-10 formulas, their exclusive conferences shielding others out, guaranteeing the best athletes to recruit, it's a monopoly of the first order.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 10:48 a.m.

    byufootballrocks "there's zero incentive to expand the pie."
    You mean that there is zero incentive to SHRINK the pie. With future television revenues in doubt (cable companies losing subscribers), there was no guarantee of long term growth. That meant less money in the future, more teams to pay, and a smaller piece of pie.

    One can understand ESPN's position. They have BYU games for about a million. Why pay many times that for the same thing? That doesn't move ESPN's motivational needle.

  • Italian Ute , 00
    Dec. 5, 2018 10:30 a.m.

    @ at long last

    With the huge international following of the religious school down south (that would be byu), and the alleged massive showing at all away games in all sports, how can it not move the needle? Anyone care to explain? Faulty needle maybe? Misreading by the Big 12? Blue goggled assertions not backed by facts?

    I would be interested in seeing some stats and metrics that speak to this but my gut feeling is that this "huge international following" is a bunch of malarkey. For example, Most church members in Italy know that BYU is the church educational institution however they don't know a lick about American college football or even care. I really just can't imagine that there is any actual following of the football team (or any of the collegiate sports for that matter) brought to the table by the International membership of the church. Maybe actual data would prove otherwise?

  • Cougar_Trojan_Spurs_Fan San Diego, CA
    Dec. 5, 2018 10:21 a.m.

    Not to mention that the Fox Sports Network, whom I believe manages the B12 network, threw a ton of money at the B12 to stay with the status quo, as adding new members would have increased Fox's payout to the conference, as the contract is on a per team basis. Fox felt it would be cheaper to pay them not to expand.

    Why not be honest, Bob? The only thing that moved anyone's needle was the million$ of dollars Fox threw at you. At least be transparent.

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 10:17 a.m.

    Holmoe missed the Big-12 boat, and he is ruining the football and basketball teams. Like any competent manager should know, ALWAYS build backup plans for HIS failures. Tom never does, not does he admit to them, nor does he learn.

    He will keep making the same mistakes and let others shape BYU’s athletics... not a leader. Leaders never willingly surrenders their control of future success, of the organization, into the hands of the competition.

    BYU needs an AD that can build relationships, not one with an over inflated ego. The Big-12 already has Texas.. The Big-12 can’t handle two drama queens.

  • stanfunky Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 10:13 a.m.

    Hit them where it hurts, the pocketbook (P5 conferences). Anti-Trust lawsuits until they allow all of the F.B.S. conferences equal access: Each conference champion gets a bid, regardless of w/l record, regardless of magical playoff rankings made in backroom deals by magical criteria, influenced by talking heads and E$PN.

    For those saying that Sun Belt, MW, AAC, C-USA and MAC can't compete, just wait - if you guarantee the access to the playoff, it will balance out recruiting as EVERY conference matters and has a shot at the national championship. TV deals will also be realigned by the anti-trust to make sure all conferences have access, not just the select few (SEC, B1G, ACC). And times rotate - SEC doesn't get all the prime TV spots they get some night games and some early AM games.

    16 team playoff should do it. 10 conference champions and 6 at-large bids, no conference can have more than 1 at-large. No more independents. Notre Dame joins a conference and plays by the same rules as everyone else, same for BYU, Army, etc.

  • byufootballrocks Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 9:36 a.m.

    Here's what the truth really is:

    Money is the reason there is no P5 conference expansion, money is the reason that more conferences are shielded through barriers of entry from getting into the P5.

    These commissioners sit there with their mulit-million dollar salaries, and P5 coaches now earning upwards or 4-8M per year, everyone scratching each others backs, and there's zero incentive to expand the pie.

    Universities raking in 10 figures or more in revenue from TV, stadium, and apparel, and there's zero incentive to expand the pie.

    It's going to take aggressive anti-trust legal action, that means lawsuits, in federal court, to expand P5 conferences and introduce an NCAA basketball-like national football playoff, which type of playoff is what you already have at the high school, junior college, 3A and 2A levels, right now, and those seem to be working just fine.

    Yes, speak the truth, it's all about money, and the subsequent qualities of power and control.

  • at long last. . . Kirksville , MO
    Dec. 5, 2018 9:33 a.m.

    With the huge international following of the religious school down south (that would be byu), and the alleged massive showing at all away games in all sports, how can it not move the needle? Anyone care to explain? Faulty needle maybe? Misreading by the Big 12? Blue goggled assertions not backed by facts?

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 9:15 a.m.

    "Big 12’s Bob Bowlsby said no regrets not expanding."

    Interesting comment. I have wondered if in hind sight they may have regretted not expanding by adding UCF, Memphis, or Houston based on how well their football teams have performed since the Big 12's decision.

  • BJMoose Syracuse, UT
    Dec. 5, 2018 9:15 a.m.

    At this point does BYU not move the Big 12 needle but the low fuel light also comes on. As things currently stand, they’d be fortunate to get back into the MWC