The case of the cake maker following his religious beliefs, vs the legal
marriage of LGBT community members leads one to question if our main goal, as
Christians of any faith, is to worship, God the Father, and his Son Jesus
Christ, and to be Grateful for the Holy spirt, or is it to judge those that do
not believe as we do.
One of the few times Hatch has been correct and on the side of public good and
common sense. His career has been dedicated to party and self interest,
hopefully in his final days of term he will look to country and patriotism to
@Ranch "Someday, you may come to respect all that those awful
"activists" have accomplished for you (and me)."I do
appreciate what gay activists have done for me - it is important to have an open
conversation about orientation - that has befitted me greatlyBut an open
conversation is not the same thing as a one sided bullying lecture - it requires
discussing the fact that abused children often grow up to become abusive adults
if they do not take the time to learn from their experience.Bigotry
is usually nothing more than a good idea enforced by a zealot and the delusion
that gay activists cannot hate in the name of gays just as effectively as others
do in the name of God (or any other "noble cause") is incredibly
naÏve and dangerous. At the end of the day - you still define
tolerance as forcing everyone to particulate in YOUR belief system;
(Masterpiece Cake did/does sell to gays - they declined to do a special order
for a gay wedding - yet you continually ignore that reality). Gay activists who
behave worse than those they claim to oppose, ultimately do not help the cause
because they are a mirror, not an alternative, to the hate you/they claim to
Sen. Orrin Hatch says calling media 'enemy of the people' damages
democracy====== So does -- Ignoring Russian
meddling in our electionsCalling global dictators "good
friends"banning people due to their religioncalling Mexicans
rapistsstarting Trade Warstearing up treaties with long time
alliesputting children in cages...But Orrin Hatch is just fine
with Trump...he's better than Abraham Lincoln !
"I can tell you I study the news coming out of many mainstream sources that
unfortunately many people get their information from, and I have never seen
anything so blatantly false, slanderous and politically charged in my 40+ years
of following politics closely. "This is what is so freighting.
Absolutely accurate coverage of man who lies pathologically, and who's
every intention is to serve his own self interest is deemed false and
slanderous. You cover a bragging liar, and guess what it's
going to look like. Prime example..no Trump did not make America
safer with his trip to North Korea. It was a reality tv show stunt, so no he
does not get credit for a stunt. You give a huge tax cut to the 1%
a few peanuts to the workers and then drive the annual deficit up by over 200%
with the action, your negligent if you don't say so. You
describe a mud fight and guess what...it's dirty.
mainstream media behemoth fox news and the gop spent 8+ years attacking obama
(even before he was sworn into office) , and the same people on here who
complain about the media were completely quiet then, or nodding sagely in their
chairs. now when someone in the media uses trump's own words to showcase
him lying, its suddenly "fake news".the bizarre thing to me
is that many of the lies are about meaningless stuff, so its just lying to be
lying. remember that trump basically led the birther movement against obama.
@CI;Let me correct that for you:"Perpetration under
the guise of religion is the worst (yet common) form of perpetration."You expect me to "tolerate" businesses discriminating against
LGBT customers in the name of "religion" (which, is in fact, nothing
more than superstition) and yet you refuse to require the same of the religious.
Over and over again, you would require that LGBT people set aside their
expectations of equality in this country; all so that some superstitious person
can asuage their "conscience". Not even once have you asked the
religious to tolerate LGBT rights.The reason I've begun to use
the word "superstition" in place of "religion" is because it is
necessary to distinguish between reality and fiction.Someday, you
may come to respect all that those awful "activists" have accomplished
for you (and me).
@Ranch"Why is it that it is *always* the LGBT people expected to show
tolerance? " Because you should demonstrate what you demand (or be
discounted as not credible)"Why can't the superstitious
show tolerance for a change?" The fact that you derisively call all
religion as mere "superstitious" indicates your failure at living up to
the first question.Do you think a black-lives-matter activist baker
has no right to decline to provide custom services for a blue-lives-matter
event? Where is your condemnation of Apple for hosting multiple gay
cruise apps, but claiming a conscience when declining to host an ex-gay app ?Ether everyone has the right to conscience or no one does - the concept that
everyone only has the right to YOUR conscience is the definition of
intolerance.I have no expectation that you will change your mind - I
merely respond so that the general population knows that all homosexuals are not
monolithic in their thoughts and many are embarrassed by gay extremism for the
same reason religious people are embarrassed by zealots operating in their
name.Perpetration under the guise of rescuing victims is the worst
(yet common) form of perpetration.
Talk is cheap, Orrin.Why don't you stand up to your President a
little more? Push back when he behaves like a dictator? You
aren't running again anyway and you have nothing to lose.
When I read the headline "Orrin Hatch says both sides of the political
spectrum have this problem in common", I immediately thought the
"problem" is career politicians overstaying their usefulness.
@CI;You are wrong. It is NOT victimization to ask a business owner to
actually conduct his business like a business and treat ALL customers equally.
The perp in this case was the man who violated the law and discriminated against
customers using superstitious nonsense as his excuse for his bigotry. (It IS
superstition, a rose by any other name...).Baking the cake for the
customer is NOT "participation". It is his BUSINESS. He refused to do
for LGBT customers what he does for EVERY straight customer who asks. "...if you want tolerance, it would be nice if you at least occasionally
actually offered it to others"-- Conservatives should have
thought of that BEFORE they tried to vote away the rights of others. Why is it
that it is *always* the LGBT people expected to show tolerance? Why can't
the superstitious show tolerance for a change?
We wouldn't be having this conversation were it not for a White House in an
extreme crisis mode all of the time.
Dear Orin - You have to call a spade a spade. Ninety percent of the
current American mainstream media IS an enemy to the people. To not call it
otherwise is foolish.
The press is NOT the enemy of the people - except when it isA free
press is critical to democracy - but the ability to criticize the press is an
even greater cornerstone to democracy. CNN is NOT above criticismThe current presidency SHOUD be vigorously watched - but so should have been
the last one: the dichotomy between the hatred now and the fawning then is
nauseating. In terms of actual action v. words, Obama was far more a threat to
the press than Trump (which reporters has Trump wiretapped?)@RanchYou are so busy playing the victim - you cant see that
others experience you as the perpetrator. People have a right to NOT
participate in your private rituals for the same reason you shouldn't be
forced to participate in what you derisively call "superstition". The right to conscience does not mean the right for you to force
everyone else to live by your conscience - if you want tolerance, it would be
nice if you at least occasionally actually offered it to others
"Masterpiece Cakeshop owner Jack Phillips made thousand of enemies overnight
when he declined on religious grounds to make a cake for a same-sex
wedding."-- Correction: Masterpiece Cakeshop owner discriminated
against LGBT couples and used superstion as an excuse."Phillips
was labeled a 'bigot,'"-- Bigotry deserves to be
called out, Orrin, and that is exactly what Phillip's actions were:
bigoted."Supreme Court, which ruled that the Colorado Civil
Rights Commission failed to respect his religious rights."-- And
they IGNORED the fact that Phillips broke the law and violated the equal
treatment rights of the LGBT couple."The senator cited
Utah's 2015 anti-discrimination law that strengthened religious freedoms
and offered housing and workplace protections for the LGBTQ community as an
example."-- Yet still ALLOWS businesses to discriminate against
@Red Smith/@TerryJust who gets to define what "Fake News"
is? If you believe President Trump, then any negative coverage of him is
"Fake News". It seems you have bought into that line of thinking. I
believe most Americans listen to the things the President says and understand
that he is a habitual liar. That CNN points out his lies isn't "Fake
News", it's just news. @JimInSLC Yes Jim, most
people believe that Russia (successfully) manipulated our election, primarily
because Russia did successfully manipulate our election. The only dispute is
whether the manipulation had a material impact on the result. I
would love for the United States to go back to the Fairness Doctrine. It would
put Fox News out of business. CNN regularly includes conservatives on their
discussion panels. Fox News almost NEVER includes a liberal contributor. They
line up 3 like minded conservatives to parrot the logic of the host. That Fox
News viewers don't see that is really interesting to me from a
Great! Now what's he going to do about it?
@Herbert Gravy:At no point has the trump train ever been on rails.
That thing has been heading every which way, except for the right way.
Hatch's legacy will be tainted by his reluctance to confront the current
president on his continual lying to the American people, disrespect displayed
towards military members, and wanton pardoning of criminals.
First of all, our democracy is not being damaged because we are a Republic.
Democracy is mob rule, which is why our founding fathers chose to be governed as
a republic, not a democracy. We elect representatives to govern us and the
constitution guarantees that each state, no matter how populous, has significant
representation in government. I'm not surprised that Senator Hatch
does not seem to understand this principle or care about it since it appears
that he would sacrifice truth and the liberty it protects for each of us on the
altar of civility. I agree that civility is important but we must also stand up
for the truth. We elected President Trump because we recognized that he was the
only candidate who was willing to defy the opposition. And it must be
recognized, after the many false reports which have been exposed, that many
media outlets have acted as enemies of truth. According to Senator Hatch,
we just need to 'get along' with them, even when they lie, libel, and
parrot unsubstantiated statements to support their promotion of socialism.
Contrary to his obvious bias, governmental power must be restrained and defining
the opposition is essential to that goal.
Trump labels any news that is critical of him as fake news. He has threatened to
shut down media he doesn't like. (CNN, NYT, WAPO.) He shows no respect for
freedom of the press, or for matter, The Constitution. He sounds like a dictator
more often than a US president.Mr Trump needs to grow up. Take the
hits like a leader, and stop whining all the time. He needs to stop watching FOX
all day, and start doing his job. Then maybe his own administration would not
need to be constantly protecting us from him. The mainstream media
is certainly biased to the left, but that doesn't mean they are not
reporting the truth. When they report on what Trump said on twitter, how is that
@CCTNo, what the "fake news" says about President Trump is
not "usually" based on what he says. It is usually based on what he
"DOESN'T" say.News sources take it upon themselves to
fill in the blanks or misinterpret (knowingly) what he does say.🤗
When will the lesson by learned? The issue of journalistic bias was implicit in
the very concept of freedom of the press right from the start.
@ErnestFortunately, "Trump's train" is one of the few
that hasn't jumped the tracks.🤗
@Hugh1:You are promoting divisiveness! A better position is to
acknowledge that some Gay people will never agree with other persons deep
religious convictions any more than some bakers will ever agree with celebrating
a Gay marriage and forcing someone to utilize his/her artistic expression to
enhance the celebration. Senator Hatch is right, we all need to be
willing to be more tolerant and understanding of others points of view even if
we don’t like them; and then to make some compromises in the name of
fairness to all.
So many stories have been fabricated to force the minds of people to be
manipulated into siding with an agenda. Most readers don't search out the
facts. That's is why it is fake because it isn't accurate. To many, if
it is in print, it must be true. We don't have many journalists we trust as
their reporting is politically motivated. So in a way, this biased reporting, is
an enemy to the people by not reporting truth backed up by facts and unpaid
If you distrust journalists, you've bought the current
administration's program. That is exactly what the president wants.Letting others do the thinking for you is a sin in my opinion.Examine all sides of the issue from many sources. Move out of your
confirmation bias bubble - both sides. Realize confirmation bias is real and
affects us all. Then decide based on facts, not feelings.The term
"Fake News" is designed to be a thought stopper. Based on the many
defenses of it above, it works as intended.
At age 80+ he FINALLY said something I agree with.First time for
Terry. You are referring to fox news? Right
Why is it that so many trump supporters believe they are lied to by the
mainstream media, but don't bother to question the president's many
proven lies?I mean, if lying is lying, period, why let anyone get
away with it without consequence?If standards mean anything they
must be applied equally to both the mainstream media and the current
administration. This is plain as day.
Hatch has no room to talk. He should have never been elected.
So glad to see so many posters coming down on the side of, "SOME news is
fake news".Some commentators and networks (and newspapers) will
stop at nothing to twist President Trump's words or "fill in the
blanks" for him with their own translations and interpretations.When will they learn that most Americans are not stupid and that we can
actually think for ourselves?🤗
@ SLarsYou wrote...a media that tries to destroy a
Presidency...My response...When Faux Noise, AM Hate
Radio and various and sundry Media Associates tried 24/7/365 for 8 years to
destroy President Obama...Not a word from Republicans about that
media as the enemy of the people.Now...it's a problem?
Hatch is a Trump supporter and also side with the "Fake News" and
"Fake Media" president. Everything that is said about Trump is usually
based on what Trump says, therefore, not fake anything.Fascists want
to control the media, which is what Trump is trying to do. Hatch is adding his
support to that goal.Was it "fake news" when the Media had
video and audio of Hatch getting in front of cameras, his favorite place, to
tell the world how U.S. intelligence agencies were tracking Osama Bin Laden
through his cell phone?Hatch wants Dems to cooperate, when for 8
years Republicans did everything they could to not cooperate.
While I agree with Senator Hatch's sentiments on tolerance, I really wish
he would more often practice what he preaches. Maybe start with no longer
referring to the opposition with terms that can't be quoted here without
running afoul of the monitor.
The media must do their due diligence to report the news as they see it not as
they want it. Every piece of news should be verifiable with hard facts not third
party information or hearsay. When they create news instead of reporting news
as they see it, they have lost their credibility. The must also differentiate
news and opinions. Unfortunately, one cannot tell the difference at times. No
wonder they are called fake news. Today, they cannot hide their
biases against President Trump and conservatives, they are not ashamed to parrot
each other. For example, the Russian Collusion issue was initiated and paid for
by the Hillary Clinton’s campaign. It seems the media is afraid to report
facts that is contradictory to their talking points. This has been going on for
years and has getting worse. Remember the Dan Rather news buster reporting on
President Dubya’s National Guard records? It turned out to be fake news.
Constantly trying to tie President Trump to the Russian Collusion is fake news.
I must be missing their incessant reporting on Hillary Clinton’s role?
Dictators usually own the Media!JP Morgan bought 25 of the most
popular news outlets in 1925 and have almost had entire control of them ever
since.President Trump is under attack. He is the worst treated most
hated President, King or ruler that has ever existed in the History of the
world. It is the Media that are destroying Democracy not only in the US but
around the entire Globe.
Hatch is the proverbial frog in the pot of water. He appears unaware that the
stove burner is on. (But if it is, the tax cuts were worth it.)
But Orrin, Donald Trump is the best President you've ever "served
I think that Hatch learned his lesson by being one of the political adversaries
or the Constitutional meaning of the American cultures when it was popular to
call Americans bad people and now this redemption speech is a call from his
party leaders to give the press more credibility than they deserve. The press is not a government agency or representative of the people and
their choices but an independent organization with the right to document the
truth of government behavior and the politicians behaviors without the right to
slander and abuse the right of free speech. The press is as much accountable to
the citizens of this country as are any individual who uses deception,
propaganda, and lies to deny the public the truth. The 1st
Amendment was to insure truth prevails in America and the press is considered an
extension of truth and the peoples rights. People have every right to hate the
mean spirited media when they try to oppress American from being told the truth.
They do not have a license to demeans or remark that our country rights and
privileges are flawed if we challenge the media about dishonest reporting as a
Well, I believe the media is the enemy of the people and the state when they
bring their own agenda to reporting. Thus, the press is an enemy when it does
not report important facts that are contrary to their own agenda. The press is
an enemy when it report false or fake new to promote their own agenda. The
press is an enemy when it fails to provide true information that is positive
toward a person in politics even if the press dislikes said person. The whole
issues boils down to the press practicing unbiased real journalism with facts
supporting the report. Amendment has been taken advantage of by misinformation
and not disclosing other important information based on media bias.
Unfortunate, but true. I once thought highly of Journalist, but now view them
with little respect.
Masterpiece Cakeshop owner Jack Phillips considers gay people's lives to be
contrary to his religious principles. If Mr. Philips doesn't understand or
care that being gay is a fact of being, and not a choice, then I have little
sympathy for Sen. Hatch's view that, "the damage to [Phillips]
reputation had already been done.""A good man’s
character had been tarnished, his business nearly destroyed — and all of
this in the name of
tolerance?" Sen. Hatch blames the traumatized gay
person for Mr. Philips' intolerance? Why?Inevitability, the
parents of gay children will need to explain to their little Johnnie or Susie
why they will be denied equal treatment in public services. Perhaps Sen. Hatch
should pen that explaination. Sen. Hatch's support of Jack Phillips'
intolerant treatment of gays is as morally wrong as it is cruel.
"It is evident that some commenters fail to realize that Senator Hatch is
remarking on the fact that in public office, learning to get along with your
political adversaries is crucial to making some kind of progress."The problem is Loyal to party politics over the country is still the main core
of divisiveness. There is no common sense among loyal to party politicians.
It's about themselves and the party they are affiliated with.
Hatch is wrong. Until the Mainstream media stops pushing fake news as real news
in their never ending war against the President they are the enemy. Even one
false or totally one sided story pushed by the main media as fact is damaging.
Reporters will always have biases, but it used to be that they left
their opinions on the opinion pages, and reported the facts. Making sure to get
both sides of every story and to back up what they report. But
instead we have a media that will rush anything claimed by an anonymous source
to the front page without trying to vette or verify the information. Leading to
the reports being quickly debunked by those who were actually present. As it currently stands the Media is the Enemy, until they rediscover
basic journalistic integrity and stop the spread of fake news stories.
Mainstream media can totally control a story, so how about controlling it with
hard facts and truth, not opinions and political bias.
Some media is enemy of the people, some isn't.Media with no
regard for the truth, but only their own agenda is not a friend of the people.
Trump said that "Fake News Media" is the enemy of the people. That
statement is 100% correct, how can fake and false propaganda media be anything
but an enemy to the people? He did Not say that all media was Fake news. So,
if any news sources believes they actually report the unbiased truth accurately,
then they would not feel like they fall under that fake news definition, right?
If they don't, then hopefully they will change to be more fair, accurate
and honest in their reporting so they no longer fit the enemy of the people
definition Trump gave.I can tell you I study the news coming out of
many mainstream sources that unfortunately many people get their information
from, and I have never seen anything so blatantly false, slanderous and
politically charged in my 40+ years of following politics closely. I don't
know how many of those media sources can still be called media when they are
pure political propaganda and hate the likes we have never before seen in the
history of this country and possibly not since the the dark days of WWII if we
look at the Axis countries. Hopefully voters can be open minded and look at the
facts and accomplishments, not the false narratives.
Well written report on the op ed piece by Mr Hatch. Whether you agree with his
support of Mr Trump or not I believe he is correct on tolerance and civility. We
need more of it in our society. Personally I do not trust one media source and I
am very careful when I read the news from any source. I think we all need to
have better bias filters while giving thanks and gratitude for a free press and
our Bill of Rights and Constitution.
It is evident that some commenters fail to realize that Senator Hatch is
remarking on the fact that in public office, learning to get along with your
political adversaries is crucial to making some kind of progress. This is very
hard to do. President Reagan was quite adept at this; others less so. Reagan
could score hits with a velvet glove cloaked with ironic humor. Romney just let
things pass. Trump hits back. Unfortunately, the leader of a major political
party called tens of millions of Americans "deplorables" and a lot of
the media sided with that leader. And more could be said. Sorry, Senator Hatch,
Many in the press are the enemy of those tens of millions of
People have been conditioned to believe that the media tells the truth. They
need to know that that is not always so. It's not all fake news, but a
little fake news mixed in with the truth can be used to deceive the people. How
many times have we been told that Syria has gassed it's own people, only to
learn that it was faked? How many still believe Russia manipulated the
election?Congress could start by rescinding the part of the NDAA
that makes it okay to use propaganda on the people. If CNN wants to regain
credibility they could start by removing all personnel that have ties to the
Fake news is the enemy of the People. That's what President Trump said.
Since Hatch jumped on trump's train a few years back, he has no right to
complain about a loss of democracy. Hatch is the problem. He could
have grown a backbone, instead he's piloting the car that is driving
democracy and the US over a cliff.
SLars, there are usually more than two sides. How deep do we go?The
press reports on the stories that will make it the most money. Sensationalized
stories have been part of the American press since 1800 and before. They are
part of our history.
Oh Orin... too little too late. You tainted your legaacy with you backing of
trump the past couple years and now today you want to speak up? Sad...
Waaaaay too little too late, Hatch!
Did Hatch just wake up? Most dictators attack the press. Hitler was a pioneer of
attacking the press. Hatch is figuring out that his legacy will be remembered as
staunchly supporting Trump. No matter what. Not what he envisioned. The damage
has been done.
It does damage a democracy. But, so does the overgrown size of our Federal
government. Thomas Jefferson commented that the Constitution was capable of
governing all of North and South America, even the entire world, and still be
able to maintain a small Federal government.
On the other hand, a media that tries to destroy a Presidency is no better.
Half truths are lies, and reporting one side is wrong, no matter which side does
I respectfully suggest Orrin review all the tape from CNN during the
presidential campaign, KSL's Doug Wright Show, and MSNBC and tell me with a
straight face that the media not only had an agenda but wasn't the least
bit biased against Trump long before he secured the nomination. (First he
wasn't serious; then a clown; then a buffoon; then incompetent; etc.) He might also want to refresh his memory about the Painesville
Telegraph, the Warsaw Signal, the Nauvoo Expositor, and early editions of the
Salt Lake Tribune if he truly believes the media cannot easily fit the role of
being enemies to the people. Much of the angst for the pioneers needing to
relocate by traveling to the mountain west was created by the editors of
newspapers that had absolutely no concern about the truth in the 1800's.
Today maybe Trump has validated much of their criticism with much of
his brash and uncouth behavior, but it's no secret the media has darlings
as well as enemies and they are not the least bit hesitant to publish whatever
they want, true or not, under their banner of "freedom of the press."
Whatever happened (if we really ever had it) to "freedom of a responsible