The judge was absolutely correct in pointing out the long term, if not lifelong,
emotional and psychological damage that these horrendous acts will do to these
innocent children. There are countless examples in the FLDS type communities
where, even though a little older, children or young adults enter into sexual
relationships because they were taught this was the will of God since small
children. These are extreme examples that we all rightly label as horrific.
But what kind of indoctrination do we inflict on our children that
may harm them or impact them for life? Why can’t we wait until a young
mind has formed more maturity and ability to reason before the daily
reinforcement of ‘eternal truths’ that will shape almost every way
they view life? Several comments have talked about the dangers of religion. But
to me, one of the most serious consequences is that as religious adults we view
it as our responsibility to indoctrinate our children. Most of you may not like
that term but as we whisper into their ears in testimony meeting, and repeat the
same stories and dogma multiple times a week, what exactly would you call it?
bamafone"So called Christians who distort religion, are not
Christian, or religious."How convenient. And by what religious
authority do you pronounce that judgment? They claimed to be Christian. They did
what they did in the name of Christianity. Their top religious leaders and
scholars cited canonical scriptural sources to justify the actions. Those
canonical scriptural sources contain histories and endorsements of horrible
actions and atrocities.Now please show us where in the
"atheist" scriptures, or handbook, or official doctrines anyone is
justified to commit genocide, or patricide, or infanticide, or pedophilia, or
incest, or any number of atrocities and moral abominations as are contained in
the official, canonical scriptures of Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, and other
major religions.And please show us where official representatives
and leaders of atheist congregations called for such things in officially
endorsed atheist decrees, and took such actions "in the name of"
Thomas JeffersonYou should re-read my original statement about those who
use religion as a cover for evil. I am very well acquainted with World War11, my
father landed at D-Day and he knew the face of evil. 10 million is in reference
to to the estimated Jews killed. That was in reference to one of my examples you
requested. So called Christians who distort religion, are not Christian, or
religious. Committing acts that are contrary is not religion, it is perversion.
A better way to sum up the the crimes of evil in the world, would be, evil men
doing evil things. Put whatever name on it you want, and it would still be evil.
I am quite sure that plenty of evil has been committed by those proclaiming no
religion at all as well. Replete, look it up, it means filled, or plenty. By the
way, I am very glad to see this man heading to prison.
Oh, my. When I read the title, I was thinking 13 or 14-year-olds, and that
would be bad. But the article says four, five, seven, and eight-year-olds, and
men swapping their own daughters — oh, my.
bamafone said:"So to Thomas JeffersonHave you never heard
of the Jewish extermination by Nazi Germany, and the over the 10 million plus
people that died in the conflict as a result."I heard. It was
called world war two and over 60,000,000 people died as a result. It was a
christian nation (Germany) who did all that killing of Jews. Hitlers first
treaty was with??? The catholic church. Every belt buckle of every German
soldier said "God with us". Perhaps it is you needs to catch up to
history. "How about the top 10 nations of the world currently
excercising(sic) genocide against their Coptic Christian and Christian
populations. North Korea, Afghanistan, Somolia(sic), Sudan, Packistan(sic),
Libya, Iraq, Yemen, And many other African nations and European
dictatorships."How about them? You mean how the majority
religion is picking on the minority one? Were you trying to prove MY point? And
what 'European dictatorships are you talking about?"History
is replete... ".You arent using that word correctly. Try again.
Also your statement was "research will clarify that most crimes
are committed because of the hatred of religion".Which is simply
wrong as I pointed out.
"The US Supreme Court ruled on the issue and it became 'settled
law;' the Church ended plural marriage and has encouraged members to be
law-abiding citizens ever since."Well, sort of... except that
polygamy/bigamy was outlawed over 15 years before the SCOTUS ruled against
Brigham Young's personal Secretary, George Reynolds v. United States, 98
U.S. 145 in 1878.Then the Prophet of the LDS Church (W.W.)
didn't get around to issuing The Manifesto/Declaration 1 supposedly
"ending" plural marriage in the Church until a dozen years later, during
which time plural marriages continued to be performed in LDS Temples and
Churches all over the place!And even after W.W. "ended"
plural marriages in 1890, numerous new plural marriages continued through 1904
(another 14 years!) until Church President Joseph F. Smith disavowed polygamy
before Congress (again) and issued a "Second Manifesto", and established
excommunication as the consequence for disobedience.So, yeah, after
42 years of unlawfulness, the Church finally "encouraged members to be
law-abiding citizens ever since."
I remain forever suspicious of any religious leader who uses the faith of his
followers to introduce illegal and immoral purposes. I other words, I could
never believe the Angel with a drawn flaming sword explanation for polygamy,
polyandry, or child brides. It smacks of priestcraft to me.
So to Thomas JeffersonHave you never heard of the Jewish extermination by
Nazi Germany, and the over the 10 million plus people that died in the conflict
as a result. How about the top 10 nations of the world currently excercising
genocide against their Coptic Christian and Christian populations. North Korea,
Afghanistan, Somolia, Sudan, Packistan, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, And many other
African nations and European dictatorships. History is replete my friend, you
may want to have some history refresher courses and it would help make that
Thomas Jefferson name resound.
If I remember correctly, this excuse has been used many times before. People can
find ways to justify their actions. An angel with a drawn sword could have
commanded this man to rob a bank to secure resources for his new religion, allow
it to prosper, and spread the "good word". It's like Son of Sam
having a dog communicate with him and tell him to kill people, same
difference.All you have to do to be led by a demagogue is to
believe. And belief is a complex thing that rises out of all sorts of needs. A
desire for little girls or little boys comes from creating a "belief" in
the rightness and justification for that desire. Fulfilling carnal desire has
always been one thing that some religious leaders have devised to achieve their
ends. It is like the virgin sacrifice of old to appease the gods when a bowl of
oranges would have done the trick.Pedophiles and sexual predators
like to have divine justification for their actions. It seems to give greater
acceptance to the oppression and abuse of young children. A cult is known as a
cult for a specific reason, all based on unbending belief in a leader and what
that leader wants from his followers.
>>If he said an angel with a drawn sword commanded it, would it be
tolerated?I'm sure that LDS Church critics know that it
wouldn't be tolerated. I'm also sure those critics know that the
Church teaches its members to obey the law of the land and that Church doctrine
does not justify illegal acts.No, this is not a hypocritical
position for the Church to hold. Yes, there was a long dispute in 19th-century
Utah about freedom of religion vs government authority. The US Supreme Court
ruled on the issue and it became "settled" law; the Church ended plural
marriage and has encouraged members to be law-abiding citizens ever since.
Betcha said:"Read your history, all most all wars have been
caused under the name of god"Yep. And it is still going on today. "People excuse horrible behavior because of god, you and I have to
be smarter than that"Agreed. Demand evidence for incredible claims.,
"if you know God and his plan for His children"Wait,
what? How do you know? What evidence do you claim to have?"it is
all about loving kindness."Oh, you must not be talking about the god
of the bible* which makes me ask which god are you talking about?"There is only 1 true God, get to know him , and then you will know the
other ones are fake."How do we get to know 'him'? How do you
know this god is a 'him'?*Actually read the bible. Yahweh
cannot be described as 'kind' in any way unless you ignore almost
every thing he does or says in the bible. bamafone says with no
evidence at all:"research will clarify that most crimes are
committed because of the hatred of religion, and those that use religion as a
cover for evil."Really? Where is this 'research' you
speak of? Why didnt you post it?This doesnt pass the smell test at
all. IMO Most crimes are committed because someone wants what someone else has.
Ops... I forgot to change my name. Be fair is the same as Allen.
So 7 is the new 14 for this guy's god?
Helen Mar Kimball was 14.
"Where did this all come from and why is Utah the epicenter for this guy and
all other guys like Warren Jeffs? I mean it doesn't seem like these cults
pop up in other states."Historically, some LDS marriages were
with brides who were in their mid teens, but most brides were older. I
don't know of any brides as young as Primary-age. This is a societal thing,
but society today says that child brides are a no no.Many LDS
marriages concern girls who are in their early 20s, but a few marriages might
occur when girls are in their late teens, i.e. after high school graduation. If
the brides-to-be are returned missionaries, that puts their marriages a year or
two later.Also, the LDS church has a history of individual, modern,
revelation, but that revelation doesn't apply to people or groups outside
the LDS church.
Tell that to your cellmates.
Unfortunately for him, and fortunantly for us, state law will superceed his
heavenly law on this one. Dordrecht, further research will clarify that most
crimes are committed because of the hatred of religion, and those that use
religion as a cover for evil.
In researching history, I find that many crimes have been committed in the name
Where did this all come from and why is Utah the epicenter for this guy and all
other guys like Warren Jeffs? I mean it doesn't seem like these cults pop
up in other states.
Religion still needs to work within the laws of the nation. This man needs many
years in prison so he doesn't hurt others.
It's reasonable to assume since at puberty people's bodies become
ready to reproduce, and at puberty the sexes start to feel attraction for each
other that God/ nature means that puberty is the right age to begin paring
up.But 7 years old?
Read your history, all most all wars have been caused under the name of god,
People excuse horrible behavior because of god, you and I have to be smarter
than that, if you know God and his plan for His children, it is all about
loving kindness. There is only 1 true God, get to know him , and then you will
know the other ones are fake.
@100MillionDeadSo, should he just be let go? Should he be allowed to
continue to be married to a 7 year old? Because it's the state that will
@strom thurmond,your post: If he said an angel with a drawn sword
commanded it, would it be tolerated?. Has a familiar ring to it, where have we
heard it before? Could the saying that there is nothing new on earth be true.
No one can prove he isnt following the 'true' religion. We
all know that humans have made up hundreds of religions and gods but for some
reason everyone believes that the one they happen to be born into is the
'true' one. Fact is that when it comes to religion they
cant all be right but they can all be wrong. Its time for humanity to quit
believing in the fraud that is all religion and deal with reality. j
If he said an angel with a drawn sword commanded it, would it be tolerated?
Do you still believe in religious freedom? I still do, and always will. It is
better to have a few bad religious leaders than a state that has the powers of
policing, taxing, and war fighting being able to run roughshod over liberty.