Cult leader says 'heavenly laws' directed him to take child bride

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  • One of Vai's Cousins DC, Washington
    Aug. 11, 2018 4:55 a.m.

    The judge was absolutely correct in pointing out the long term, if not lifelong, emotional and psychological damage that these horrendous acts will do to these innocent children. There are countless examples in the FLDS type communities where, even though a little older, children or young adults enter into sexual relationships because they were taught this was the will of God since small children. These are extreme examples that we all rightly label as horrific.

    But what kind of indoctrination do we inflict on our children that may harm them or impact them for life? Why can’t we wait until a young mind has formed more maturity and ability to reason before the daily reinforcement of ‘eternal truths’ that will shape almost every way they view life? Several comments have talked about the dangers of religion. But to me, one of the most serious consequences is that as religious adults we view it as our responsibility to indoctrinate our children. Most of you may not like that term but as we whisper into their ears in testimony meeting, and repeat the same stories and dogma multiple times a week, what exactly would you call it?

  • The Atheist Provo, UT
    Aug. 10, 2018 8:25 a.m.

    bamafone

    "So called Christians who distort religion, are not Christian, or religious."

    How convenient. And by what religious authority do you pronounce that judgment? They claimed to be Christian. They did what they did in the name of Christianity. Their top religious leaders and scholars cited canonical scriptural sources to justify the actions. Those canonical scriptural sources contain histories and endorsements of horrible actions and atrocities.

    Now please show us where in the "atheist" scriptures, or handbook, or official doctrines anyone is justified to commit genocide, or patricide, or infanticide, or pedophilia, or incest, or any number of atrocities and moral abominations as are contained in the official, canonical scriptures of Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, and other major religions.

    And please show us where official representatives and leaders of atheist congregations called for such things in officially endorsed atheist decrees, and took such actions "in the name of" atheism.

  • bamafone Salem, UT
    Aug. 10, 2018 12:13 a.m.

    Thomas Jefferson
    You should re-read my original statement about those who use religion as a cover for evil. I am very well acquainted with World War11, my father landed at D-Day and he knew the face of evil. 10 million is in reference to to the estimated Jews killed. That was in reference to one of my examples you requested. So called Christians who distort religion, are not Christian, or religious. Committing acts that are contrary is not religion, it is perversion. A better way to sum up the the crimes of evil in the world, would be, evil men doing evil things. Put whatever name on it you want, and it would still be evil. I am quite sure that plenty of evil has been committed by those proclaiming no religion at all as well. Replete, look it up, it means filled, or plenty. By the way, I am very glad to see this man heading to prison.

  • ji_ Ketchikan, AK
    Aug. 9, 2018 4:43 p.m.

    Oh, my. When I read the title, I was thinking 13 or 14-year-olds, and that would be bad. But the article says four, five, seven, and eight-year-olds, and men swapping their own daughters — oh, my.

  • Thomas Jefferson Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 3:46 p.m.

    bamafone said:

    "So to Thomas Jefferson
    Have you never heard of the Jewish extermination by Nazi Germany, and the over the 10 million plus people that died in the conflict as a result."

    I heard. It was called world war two and over 60,000,000 people died as a result. It was a christian nation (Germany) who did all that killing of Jews. Hitlers first treaty was with??? The catholic church. Every belt buckle of every German soldier said "God with us". Perhaps it is you needs to catch up to history.

    "How about the top 10 nations of the world currently excercising(sic) genocide against their Coptic Christian and Christian populations. North Korea, Afghanistan, Somolia(sic), Sudan, Packistan(sic), Libya, Iraq, Yemen, And many other African nations and European dictatorships."

    How about them? You mean how the majority religion is picking on the minority one? Were you trying to prove MY point? And what 'European dictatorships are you talking about?

    "History is replete... ".

    You arent using that word correctly. Try again.

    Also your statement was "research will clarify that most crimes are committed because of the hatred of religion".

    Which is simply wrong as I pointed out.

  • I M LDS 2 Provo, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 1:26 p.m.

    "The US Supreme Court ruled on the issue and it became 'settled law;' the Church ended plural marriage and has encouraged members to be law-abiding citizens ever since."

    Well, sort of... except that polygamy/bigamy was outlawed over 15 years before the SCOTUS ruled against Brigham Young's personal Secretary, George Reynolds v. United States, 98 U.S. 145 in 1878.

    Then the Prophet of the LDS Church (W.W.) didn't get around to issuing The Manifesto/Declaration 1 supposedly "ending" plural marriage in the Church until a dozen years later, during which time plural marriages continued to be performed in LDS Temples and Churches all over the place!

    And even after W.W. "ended" plural marriages in 1890, numerous new plural marriages continued through 1904 (another 14 years!) until Church President Joseph F. Smith disavowed polygamy before Congress (again) and issued a "Second Manifesto", and established excommunication as the consequence for disobedience.

    So, yeah, after 42 years of unlawfulness, the Church finally "encouraged members to be law-abiding citizens ever since."

  • rhodger Cedar City, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 12:42 p.m.

    I remain forever suspicious of any religious leader who uses the faith of his followers to introduce illegal and immoral purposes. I other words, I could never believe the Angel with a drawn flaming sword explanation for polygamy, polyandry, or child brides. It smacks of priestcraft to me.

  • bamafone Salem, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 11:53 a.m.

    So to Thomas Jefferson
    Have you never heard of the Jewish extermination by Nazi Germany, and the over the 10 million plus people that died in the conflict as a result. How about the top 10 nations of the world currently excercising genocide against their Coptic Christian and Christian populations. North Korea, Afghanistan, Somolia, Sudan, Packistan, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, And many other African nations and European dictatorships. History is replete my friend, you may want to have some history refresher courses and it would help make that Thomas Jefferson name resound.

  • Jim Chee Lahaina, HI
    Aug. 9, 2018 11:41 a.m.

    If I remember correctly, this excuse has been used many times before. People can find ways to justify their actions. An angel with a drawn sword could have commanded this man to rob a bank to secure resources for his new religion, allow it to prosper, and spread the "good word". It's like Son of Sam having a dog communicate with him and tell him to kill people, same difference.

    All you have to do to be led by a demagogue is to believe. And belief is a complex thing that rises out of all sorts of needs. A desire for little girls or little boys comes from creating a "belief" in the rightness and justification for that desire. Fulfilling carnal desire has always been one thing that some religious leaders have devised to achieve their ends. It is like the virgin sacrifice of old to appease the gods when a bowl of oranges would have done the trick.

    Pedophiles and sexual predators like to have divine justification for their actions. It seems to give greater acceptance to the oppression and abuse of young children. A cult is known as a cult for a specific reason, all based on unbending belief in a leader and what that leader wants from his followers.

  • mhenshaw Leesburg, VA
    Aug. 9, 2018 11:13 a.m.

    >>If he said an angel with a drawn sword commanded it, would it be tolerated?

    I'm sure that LDS Church critics know that it wouldn't be tolerated. I'm also sure those critics know that the Church teaches its members to obey the law of the land and that Church doctrine does not justify illegal acts.

    No, this is not a hypocritical position for the Church to hold. Yes, there was a long dispute in 19th-century Utah about freedom of religion vs government authority. The US Supreme Court ruled on the issue and it became "settled" law; the Church ended plural marriage and has encouraged members to be law-abiding citizens ever since.

  • Thomas Jefferson Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 11:06 a.m.

    Betcha said:

    "Read your history, all most all wars have been caused under the name of god"
    Yep. And it is still going on today.

    "People excuse horrible behavior because of god, you and I have to be smarter than that"
    Agreed. Demand evidence for incredible claims.,

    "if you know God and his plan for His children"
    Wait, what? How do you know? What evidence do you claim to have?

    "it is all about loving kindness."
    Oh, you must not be talking about the god of the bible* which makes me ask which god are you talking about?

    "There is only 1 true God, get to know him , and then you will know the other ones are fake."
    How do we get to know 'him'? How do you know this god is a 'him'?

    *Actually read the bible. Yahweh cannot be described as 'kind' in any way unless you ignore almost every thing he does or says in the bible.

    bamafone says with no evidence at all:

    "research will clarify that most crimes are committed because of the hatred of religion, and those that use religion as a cover for evil."

    Really? Where is this 'research' you speak of? Why didnt you post it?

    This doesnt pass the smell test at all. IMO Most crimes are committed because someone wants what someone else has.

  • Allen South Jordan, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 10:35 a.m.

    Ops... I forgot to change my name. Be fair is the same as Allen.

  • THEREALND Mishawaka, IN
    Aug. 9, 2018 10:10 a.m.

    So 7 is the new 14 for this guy's god?

  • always curious Portland, OR
    Aug. 9, 2018 10:00 a.m.

    Helen Mar Kimball was 14.

  • Be fair South Jordan, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 9:59 a.m.

    "Where did this all come from and why is Utah the epicenter for this guy and all other guys like Warren Jeffs? I mean it doesn't seem like these cults pop up in other states."

    Historically, some LDS marriages were with brides who were in their mid teens, but most brides were older. I don't know of any brides as young as Primary-age. This is a societal thing, but society today says that child brides are a no no.

    Many LDS marriages concern girls who are in their early 20s, but a few marriages might occur when girls are in their late teens, i.e. after high school graduation. If the brides-to-be are returned missionaries, that puts their marriages a year or two later.

    Also, the LDS church has a history of individual, modern, revelation, but that revelation doesn't apply to people or groups outside the LDS church.

  • Lia Sandy, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 9:55 a.m.

    Tell that to your cellmates.

  • bamafone Salem, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 9:55 a.m.

    Unfortunately for him, and fortunantly for us, state law will superceed his heavenly law on this one. Dordrecht, further research will clarify that most crimes are committed because of the hatred of religion, and those that use religion as a cover for evil.

  • dordrecht Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 9:38 a.m.

    In researching history, I find that many crimes have been committed in the name of religion.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 9:25 a.m.

    Where did this all come from and why is Utah the epicenter for this guy and all other guys like Warren Jeffs? I mean it doesn't seem like these cults pop up in other states.

  • Elsleuith Eagle Mountain, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 9:12 a.m.

    Religion still needs to work within the laws of the nation. This man needs many years in prison so he doesn't hurt others.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 9:04 a.m.

    It's reasonable to assume since at puberty people's bodies become ready to reproduce, and at puberty the sexes start to feel attraction for each other that God/ nature means that puberty is the right age to begin paring up.

    But 7 years old?

  • Betcha Waltham, MA
    Aug. 9, 2018 8:53 a.m.

    Read your history, all most all wars have been caused under the name of god, People excuse horrible behavior because of god, you and I have to be smarter than that, if you know God and his plan for His children, it is all about loving kindness. There is only 1 true God, get to know him , and then you will know the other ones are fake.

  • dmcvey Los Angeles, CA
    Aug. 9, 2018 8:52 a.m.

    @100MillionDead

    So, should he just be let go? Should he be allowed to continue to be married to a 7 year old? Because it's the state that will stop him.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 9, 2018 8:42 a.m.

    @strom thurmond,
    your post: If he said an angel with a drawn sword commanded it, would it be tolerated?. Has a familiar ring to it, where have we heard it before? Could the saying that there is nothing new on earth be true.

  • Thomas Jefferson Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 9, 2018 8:04 a.m.

    No one can prove he isnt following the 'true' religion.

    We all know that humans have made up hundreds of religions and gods but for some reason everyone believes that the one they happen to be born into is the 'true' one.

    Fact is that when it comes to religion they cant all be right but they can all be wrong. Its time for humanity to quit believing in the fraud that is all religion and deal with reality. j

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    Aug. 8, 2018 11:12 p.m.

    If he said an angel with a drawn sword commanded it, would it be tolerated?

  • PhoenixAZ phoenix, AZ
    Aug. 8, 2018 4:45 p.m.

    Disgusting!

  • 100MillionDead RU, 00
    Aug. 8, 2018 4:24 p.m.

    Do you still believe in religious freedom? I still do, and always will. It is better to have a few bad religious leaders than a state that has the powers of policing, taxing, and war fighting being able to run roughshod over liberty.