Strong, persuasive, well-backed comments by Uteology.
@Grain While there may be isolated instances of police brutality, it
is a far cry from being institutional. The facts don't support such a
claim. ------School of Public Health researchers finds
states with a greater degree of structural racism, particularly residential
segregation, have higher racial disparities in fatal police shootings of unarmed
victims.“This research should change the conversation about
the problem of police shootings. Part of the resistance to openly discussing
this issue is that many people feel offended by criticism of people who are
risking their lives to protect all of us. Our study suggests that
this problem is not simply about the actions of individuals, but about the
actions of all of society. Hopefully, reframing this from an individual to a
societal problem will pave the way for a meaningful discussion about
@GrainOfSalt - Draper, UTJune 10, 2018 4:56 p.m.Unfortunately, this
is a case of the blind leading the blind. The myth of institutional racism
amongst law enforcement officers does not hold up under analysis.----Published in the Journal of the National Medical Association,
the first study to examine the relationship between structural racism and racial
disparities in fatal police shootings at the state level. Even
controlling for rates of arrest, the researchers found a strong association
between the racial disparity in unarmed fatal police shootings and a range of
structural racism indicators, with residential segregation showing the most
pronounced association.“The problem of police killings of
unarmed Black victims should not be viewed merely as a problem of flawed action
on the part of individual police officers, but more as a consequence of the
broader problem of structural racism,” says senior author Michael Siegel,
professor of community health sciences. “Unjustified homicide
by police should be added to the long list of the public health consequences of
@oldYou want to protest and be civilly disobedient, go ahead. Just
sharpen up what the real issues of protest are, and cite the facts, not the
myths.----According to Mapping Police Violence in 2017,
most police killings occurred after law enforcement responded to non-violent
offences or where no crime was reported. A staggering 89 people were
killed after a traffic stop. The report also states, “Black people were
more likely to be killed by police, more likely to be unarmed, and less likely
to be threatening someone when killed.”The Sentencing Project
shows that between 2007 and 2010, 63 percent of the people the “Boston
Police Department observed, stopped, interrogated, frisked or searched without
making an arrest” were black. In Boston, blacks are 24 percent of the
city’s population.In 2014, the American Civil Liberties Union
reported black males receive 20 percent higher sentences than their white
counterparts convicted of similar crimes. Even sentencing guidelines
prove problematic, for instance imposing stiffer penalties on crack possession,
more common in the black community, than cocaine, more prevalent amongst whites.
The beauty of sports was that it used to unite people rather than divide us.
For a few hours a week, democrats and republicans, black and white, conservative
and liberal, all united cheering for the same team. Now that the NFL has
become political, this former NFL junkie refused to watch a single game all last
season. As for the kneeling cause, I flat out don’t give a hoot. They
are not going to get my respect through disrespecting something I respect,
namely the flag and the national anthem.
@MBB - Salt Lake City, UTJune 11, 2018 5:03 p.m."I am
saddened that the real reason behind the protests has been ignored."You must be talking about Kap getting benched and throwing a little fit?
I used to enjoy watching the NFL because it was about football. I didn't
watch to get a political commentary. I'm not interested in overpaid
athletes disrespecting my flag or my country. I choose to ignore them by
turning off my TV.
@brave sirrobin@TJ"We live in the greatest country
on Earth"We do? That's news to me and to millions of people
in dozens of other countries that are independently rated better than the United
States by almost every objective measure.========We're not??? That's news to 100's of millions in our country
and in countries all over the world who receive humanitarian aid in the billions
from the USA. You would be hard-pressed to find a more generous country on the
planet than the U.S. Aid given by the US far and away out paces that
given by any European or Asian country etc. America gives away more in
charitable contributions than the GDP of most other nations, it is approaching
$400 Billion. 75% of American families give charitably every year. More than 50%
volunteer time.The avg American gives away 3.5 times as much as the
avg French citizen, 7 times as much as the avg German, 14 times as much as the
avg Italian, etc and this disparity is growing because American's have been
increasing in their charitable contributions.On top of that,
we've given significantly more in lives lost due to wars in Europe,
Southeast Asia, Korea, etc defending liberty.
@brave sir robbin@TJ"We live in the greatest country
on Earth"We do? That's news to me and to millions of people
in dozens of other countries that are independently rated better than the United
States by almost every objective measure.-------------------America's not so great, eh? Maybe that's because they're
not in a P5 conference. Down with America because they're not in a P5! Go P5!! Go Pac12!!
"It isn't the players that are demanding stadiums be subsidized by the
taxpayers. That would be their billionaire owners."True, but I
have yet to see the players speak out against the practice. Which is not
surprising, because it helps put money in their pockets as well.In
any case, most fans aren't going to make those fine distinctions. All they
are going to see and hear are pampered multi-millionaire players complaining
about how the country and people who made them rich are oppressive racists. You
can bet the fans will remember that the next time the owner comes begging for
money to the mayor or governor, and threatening to leave the city if the team
doesn't get what it wants.The NFL leadership finally wised up
and realized they were playing with fire, and decided to put a stop to it before
it did some real damage to their bottom line.
Wow. I'd like to say I'm dumbfounded at the strong negative reaction
against the protests, but I'm not. When someone only wants to see one side
(usually their side) of an argument, there's not much you can do. I am
saddened that the real reason behind the protests has been ignored. I'd
like to think that because police are so important in our communities that
we'd want to do everything we could to weed out the bad ones. Remember the
incident up at the U of U hospital with the nurse? People were incensed with the
way she was treated by the police officers. I don't remember too many
people telling her she should have just shut up and did what they told her to
do. I don't think many people put much blame on her for how she was
treated. Perhaps, because most people could relate to her. Maybe we could try to
relate to our minority brothers and sisters and see where they are coming from,
instead of just dismissing what they are trying to say.
@Gruncle Ralph"I remember several years back the Dixie Chicks were in
concert in England and used their stage to disrespect the POTUS. Fans booed them
off the stage and they were shocked and dismayed and lashed out at fans. Well,
those fans had just as much right as the celebrities to voice their opinions.
"Just to set the facts straight, the Dixie Chicks were not booed off
stage. Most of the English fans were indifferent and or applauded. Many of
their American fans did not give them much of a reception when they returned
home and their popularity in the States definitely suffered. With that said,
their fans, or NFL fans have the right to respond as they'd like. Doing
the right thing, is not always the popular thing. I support any human beings
right to peaceful protest but I may not support them with my pocketbook. The
choice is yours.
Sad topic, but unlikely to be resolved in the current climate.My
beef is with the profound ignorance of the politically correct media and the
players. The foundation for much of the argument asserting "police
brutality" is baseless in fact.Worst example: I'd bet the
farm that virtually all the kneeling players would cite Michael Brown and the
Ferguson incident which I believe promulgated the "He was shot with his
hands up!" myth and provided another strong stimulus for the Black Lives
Matter group. After cooler heads prevailed and the Obama / Holder
DOJ conducted a VERY thorough Federal investigation. This effort established
that Brown--not the officer--was the aggressor and Brown was NOT shot in the
back as was initially claimed. Of course the lame stream media reported this
outcome "back the the classified section" of their papers.You want to protest and be civilly disobedient, go ahead. Just sharpen up
what the real issues of protest are, and cite the facts, not the myths.
Those who choose to make our protests about the flag or the anthem send a
message of hate and ignorance to us"--------------Why is it okay for players to disrespect a symbol like the flag that millions
hold dear but not okay for fans to have their voice on that as well? Do players
think they're above us and we should have them all on pedestals and fawn
all over them because they are more famous than we are and they make more
money?I get why fans don't like the players bringing politics
into sports. It's within fan's rights to express their opinions about
it just as it is within players rights to be vocal. There are always unintended
consequences to choices we make in life and wanting to have your 2 minutes of
fame on an issue using your job as the vehicle for that is likely going to have
unintended consequences. I remember several years back the Dixie
Chicks were in concert in England and used their stage to disrespect the POTUS.
Fans booed them off the stage and they were shocked and dismayed and lashed out
at fans. Well, those fans had just as much right as the celebrities to voice
their opinions. If you want to dish it out be ready to take it.
@cousineddy"When lives are what really matter to them, then
they'll put their effort where they will see a meaningful return on their
effort. "You do realize that many of these players individually have
donated more money and time to charity than all the posters on the blog
collectively? Collin Kapernick alone has donated over a million dollars. Many
of them walk the talk which is more than most people on this comment board can
I look at it this way. You work for the NFL. If they say you can't
protest during the national anthem they have that right because you are at work.
They are paying you. If you hurt their business model then why would that be
okay. The NFL has not said that you can't use social media or any other
media source to get your opinion out. You just can't do it at work. The
think is that would be true for anyone else.
As humans we are prone to find the easy villian but so poorly at finding the
root cause. Just like the gun debate raging in this nation, let's put the
blame of a lopsided statistical racial issue on a few bad cops and over look the
overwhelming evidence of intergenerational poverty, poor parenting, substance
abuse, and poor personal choices as the root cause. These overpaid athletes
would do more good and save far more lives if they would promote personal
accountability, parenting skills, education, attendance in schools, early
support sytems, and job skills then they ever will trying to find and highlight
the few worthless cops within the ranks of 1000's of dedicated,
professional ones. When lives are what really matter to them, then they'll
put their effort where they will see a meaningful return on their effort. Until
then, it's about them fostering hate and division.
This young man starts his comments by saying--"I put a lot of thought in
it..."This shows he's gone way beyond the limits of most who
would deny those who kneel their right to quietly and strongly protest the
unbelievably unjust treatment of young, black males in America. To
them--the argument often seems to be..Flag + not stand with hand on
heart--equals--UnAmerican. To stop, research and really think about what
these players are saying when they take a knee would take courage and wisdom
rarely seen in the flag-waving MAGA crowd.
I think these players who want to protest should do a few months of ride-a-longs
with the police. Let them see domestic violence up close. Let them see gang
violence up close. Let them see drug addiction up close. Most
importantly, let them see that the vast majority of police officers are really
good people doing an incredibly difficult and dangerous job.
The NFL has used the Flag and our Military as a marketing strategy to promote
their brand. Patriotism sells. Now, a few players turn the tables and use
those marketing tools to timely promote their social protest. Some Americans
are offended and demand allegiance to the NFL's marketing strategy. If
you don't like what you see turn it off and evidently a lot of you have.
The players have a right to protest and be fired. Me guesses they'll
continue to do the former but the owners will be hesitant to do the latter
because they have a product to market. So many of you have bought into the
political hogwash some politicians have sold you. This is much ado about
The stastistics are sad of the overwhelming amount of blackmen incarcerated, and
yes police have had their fair share in of negative incidents dealing with
minorities which is inexcusable.There are far more people other than
african americans who have been shot while unarmed by police officers as a whole
the population of non african americans is far bigger and the numbers
aren't even close - yes by percentage of population and per capita the
african american population has a higher rate of incarceration. That said to
suggest any certain minority or creed is targeted more than another is non
sense, anyone who is incarcerated most likely commited a crime these statistics
are a result of the culture in certain areas of low income poor educated people
when drug abuse is ramptant, and lack of strong family support for young kids
who rely on gangs for security and support that should be provided by
parents.Protesting is fine but remember thousands of americans died
to protect our freedom, protesting is to rely on others to force change, being
proactive in those communities to effect change is more productive, disperaging
the symbol of our country is never good.
I agree with water rocket. They picked this particular action because it would
gain instant notoriety (not support, though) from the media. Caught unaware,
owners endured it for a partial season, then put their foot down. This is a
pathetic attempt to try and begin making positive changes the players wish to
see in society. They all have millions of dollars in salary and could easily
begin a movement that would be effective and productive, but gosh, that costs
some money. Don'y they believe in investing in what they feel strongly
about? Apparently not; they want the cheap, free media exposure and millions of
families that have members who served their country in the military to ensure
their ability to be so disrespectful are just sickened by their ill-thought-out
venue to stage their frustration with society. There are far better ways that
would garner respect and not be divisive, but I guess protesting really
isn't about solving issues, it's about free and cheap divisiveness.
And then they hang on "racism" as being the entire problem. That's
only part of the problem; cultural norms & lifestyle are part of it too, but
no one wants to go there for solutions. Pathetic....
I'm listening are you? What is your solution? What do you think should be
done? What do you really think is the problem? Holding up signs, Tweeting,
Kneeling, and not voting are not solutions. So big fella, what are your
suggestions?The facts do not support your position but hey that is
not fun journalism.Are you listening to the majority of
American's who have suggested you protest at a different time and place?I do not watch or support the NFL and I love football. Sorry.
Light and Liberty "If you don't after spending 23 years in military
service, I would say, 'shame on you!' "Clearly L&L has
not served in the military. In The Oath of Allegiance, the military member
swears to defend the Constitution of the United States. Not the flag, not the
anthem, not the President, or even the motherland. They defend the Constitution
so that you are free to say that you find kneeling disrespectful. They defend
the Constitution so that people can air their grievances in public by taking a
knee or raising a fist. They defend the Constitution so that owners can put on
a patriotic dog and pony show for money.That's what is
happening. Owners aren't waving the flag out of patriotism. They're
waving the flag because it makes money. Player protests break the illusion, and
it cost the owners money.
I'm going to hate myself tomorrow, but dittos to JohnInSLC. Well stated.
The players have the constitutional right to protest while in the employ
of whatever football franchise. However, that simply means that the government
(city, county, state, federal) cannot arrest them. It doesn't protect them
from being fired by an uptight, nationalistic football franchise owner.
Not a fan a of anthem protests (kneeling, raised fists, etc), but I respect the
right of the players to do it. I would like to see the players remain in the
locker room during the anthem - problem solved. I've seen many college
teams do this.
Oh by the way, I do take issue with the "protesters" characterization
that cops are racist.There may be some, but by and large, cops are
asked to do an impossible job under extreme circumstances at times. They have
to make snap decisions that are always second guessed and Monday Morning
quarterbacked (pun intended). And cops deal with extreme people.As a
former cop, I didn't go out looking for minorities to harass and beat up.
Never had to shoot anyone. The closest I came to shooting anyone was a white
guy. I worked in a city where the crime was proportional to the ethnic make
up. So were the arrests.If someone needed enhanced arrest
procedures (more force), then it was because of their actions escalating the
situation. Heck, I got hurt more times than the suspects. I got bit, kicked,
punched, pushed, foot stomped, spit on, stabbed with a dirty drug needle, road
rashed, foot run over with a car, hit with a bottle (empty and full) and a whole
host of other stuff.Cops don't beat people just for no reason.
I'm not saying all cops are good, there are bad ones.But I
doubt that the situation is as dire as people think or media.
Protest yourselves out of work. NFL continues to spiral downwards, lawsuit,
brain injuries and protests. Didn’t watch one game last year and
won’t again this year.
If this kid went to Corner Canyon, then the assumption can be made that he lived
in the southeast part of the valley, unless he was recruited from Hunter or
Kearns.Even then, he still doesn't know the law. Employment law on speech at work is very settled. If an owner of a
company/team or their governing entity wants to restrict certain forms of
speech, that is their right.If the players want to stand outside the
stadium on their own time prior to putting on the uniform, then more power to
them. At work, not so much.
Sounds like some readers of the Deseret News have no idea how racist our
American society still is. Haven't you ever heard the phrase "driving
while black" or "living while black"? Look it up. These are not
imaginary problems for black law-abiding citizens of our country. They are very
real, very scary problems, and I am glad that many black athletes are calling
attention to them in such a respectful way. (Kneeling is very respectful!)
Sorry I don't agree with you. If they want to protest, separate it from the
national anthem and the flag. Go stand on a street corner or go on tv. But
please show respect for our flag. Sometimes wisdom comes with age.
They should not be punished for demonstrating in this way. It is not
disrespectful, and standing during the anthem cannot reasonably be a required
part of their job. Those who claim that it is are being dishonest. It is not.
“If you don't after spending 23 years in military service, I would
say, 'shame on you!' Didn't your mother teach you that you
weren't the center of the universe”more heat than
light:Maybe you should think twice before making such a juvenile
comment. I spent a couple of years in the Army during a very unpopular war, and
while I agree the kneeling demonstrations are inappropriate as to time and
place, they nonetheless are sincere. Peaceful, non-violent protests, whether I
agree with the cause or not, is a constitutional freedom of speech that myself
and millions of other Americans over the last 2+ centuries swore to defend.
Your mother should have taught you that.
Why is kneeling disrespectful to the flag? I had never thought kneeling to pray
was done in protest of God. I imagine a group of politicians saw an
opportunity to convince a large number of people who love this great country
that it was a protest against the flag and the country. Their ploy worked on a
large population. It is too sad. ... the issue of free speech is also null
and void here. If I made political speech during working hours, I’m pretty
sure I’d get reprimanded and maybe fired, especially if I did so in front
of a client. The NFL has complete rights to ban all forms of political speech of
their players whenever they are in uniform or at a team or NFL sponsored event.
...still doesn’t mean kneeling was meant as a protest against the
country... 2 separate issues.
FelisConcolor:It isn't the players that are demanding stadiums
be subsidized by the taxpayers. That would be their billionaire owners.
Utah'95: I am not offended by players kneeling either. That doesn't
mean I don't think they are acting like a spoiled little child that
doesn't understand how much blood and sacrifice has gone into what that
flag means. If you don't after spending 23 years in military service, I
would say, 'shame on you!' Didn't your mother teach you that you
weren't the center of the universe and that it isn't about you? Those
kneeling are showing a great deal of disrespect and are absolutely making a
statement, the statement being, "Look at me!" I am not getting enough
attention or enough money, so I will take a shot at the one of the most valuable
pieces of America that we have today and try to focus the attention on me,
rather than the grand ole' flag! Well, choices have consequences and if he
likes the consequences of his choice, then good for him. As for the rest of us,
we can make choices too! That choice being to not watch grown men getting paid
for playing a game showing disrespect for our flag! Of course, I haven't
watched the NFL for 30 years, so either way it doesn't affect me much. How
wonderful it is to live in a land where choices still have consequences.
I am an officer in my 23rd year of military service. I, and many other
servicemen, are not offended by NFL players kneeling during the national
anthem. If this display helps move us toward a better understanding of racial
issues, we will all benefit.
No Mr. Bowen your college education is failing you for saying NFL players have
the right to protest during games. Labor decisions overwhelming agree that
business owners have the right to tell employees what they can do on the clock.
NFL players are employee's and they don't set policy. Imagine
Starbucks employees who felt strongly that wearing a pin with a slogan opposing
what they view as the evils of gay marraige. Can Walmart employee's wear a
hat promoting the Aryan brotherhood? No they would be fired on day one, and
boycotts would ensure before the last cup of coffee was poured. Could a
Mcdonalds employee wear a scarf for PETA. People go to games, pay steep prices
for tickets to escape the tough work week, not to listen to millionaires throw
political temper tantrums. We all hate racism, but engaging in an act that
alienates a large demographic of Americans who hold the flag sacred, seems
amazingly counter productive. Hold a rally, conduct a parade, donate to your
causes, on your own time, now as that's as American as apple pie. As a
veteran I disagree with Mr. Bowen, and many NFL teams will come draft day.
Ah youth. Carefree and clueless. Remember? It would do this young man good to
visit with a Ranger unit back fresh from a firefight in the middle east or
perhaps a cop after attending to a violent 911 call. Nothing like experience as
your teacher. Helps you to grow up. Sorry young fella but the grown up fans
support our troups and cops..not millionaire atheles. Ratings way down in the
NFL...and dropping. Other news some school districts are dropping football due
to head injuries...finally. Bob Costis was right about football. Its time to
rethink this blood sport starting with high school.
“We’re just everyday people who happen to play a sport and happen to
be good at it.”True. Which means your opinion on the matter
is no more or less valid than a mechanic's or a doctor's or a police
officer's opinion.However, unlike mechanics or doctors or
police officers, society would be able to survive just fine without watching
grown men play a kid's game every Sunday. Especially if those players --
whose salaries are at least 7 times the median income of their fans --
sanctimoniously lecture Americans about how racist their country is, and then
turn around and demand subsidies from the taxpayers in order to build a new
stadium.This is a big reason why the NFL caved and prohibited anthem
protests: the owners don't want people to find out that they don't
really need to watch pro football.
@Brave Sir RobinThe USA is the greatest nation on earth. The
Constitution, the history, the good and decent people willing to sacrifice so
much for others of other nations to have what so many of us take for granted all
make the USA the greatest nation on earth. Since you cite no sources, I have no
idea what you are talking about. But just name me another country on the planet
that has so many thousands who are trying to get in both legally and illegally.
The USA is truly the land of opportunity. As to those who
disrespect the flag and anthem while at work, I feel sorry for them. I blame
the NFL owners for the problems the protesting has caused. If the NFL goes out
of business it would certainly serve them right.
Very much look foreword to the NFL going out of business.
Can we get him a tissue??Why does the media cater to the plea of the
fictitious victim? The law enforcement in the USA is arguably the best in the
world. Nothing is perfect all of the time, but collectively they do a great
job. I have a novel idea.... dont break the law, dont commit
crimes, dont draw the attention of the police.
@TJ"We live in the greatest country on Earth"We
do? That's news to me and to millions of people in dozens of other
countries that are independently rated better than the United States by almost
every objective measure.
There are FAR better ways to "protest" than to show disrespect for what
others hold as sacred! The sheer arrogance of any one who does this is beyond
belief, and surely does not deserve any support.
Thanks to our law abiding good police men and women and the extraordinary work
they do at the risk of life and property. Thanks to those patriotic men and
women who honor our flag and the great USA. Thanks for all those who are
willing to express that patriotism in a way that promotes respect and love of
country and humanity.
More NFL fans would support this cause if the players would take off football
jersies and and do this on their own time.
I don’t even agree with this being an issue of free speech. They are at
their job representing their owner, team and league. If they did this on their
own time that would be a different story. I know that if my behavior at my job
conflicts with the expected behavior of my employer I may be disciplined or out
of a job. Teachers and many other professions also have to watch their behavior
during their personal time because it may be viewed by students and can cause
This is going to go South mighty quickly if professional athletes don't
pull their heads out. We live in the greatest country on Earth and everyone who
is willing to put forth the effort can be successful. The people who commit
crimes and put themselves in a situation to be confronted by police, and then
resist arrest or act in a dangerous manner, are the ones who get hurt 99.999% of
the time. There are a few isolated incidents each year but, they are a very
small fraction of 1% of all cases and they are almost always resolved correctly.
Corrupt and abusive police officers will get what is coming to them eventually.
With all the crazy people out there, I wouldn't blame any police officer
for being paranoid a little when pulling someone over. Just do what the police
officers tell you to do and if you think you are being harassed, get a lawyer,
as much as I hate to see any of them get more money
What are you going to do for a living when people stop watching NFL games
because its now a stage for protest. Write an editorial! OK. Find another
venue to vent your passion.
Unfortunately, this is a case of the blind leading the blind. The myth of
institutional racism amongst law enforcement officers does not hold up under
analysis. The Eagles' player holding up his signs, while a great media
stunt, lacks substance. Larry Elders, also black, blows this myth away in
several interviews and articles. He even quotes the Washington Post's own
article on this topic, "But of the nearly 1,000 people killed by cops last
year...the Post reported that less than 4 percent were instances of white cops
shooting and killing an unarmed black man." While there may be isolated
instances of police brutality, it is a far cry from being institutional. The
facts don't support such a claim. But I don't think the media is
interested in the less sensational truth.