LDS Church, ex-MTC leader ask judge to dismiss Colorado woman's sexual assault suit

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  • thesob Brigham City, UT
    May 17, 2018 3:25 p.m.

    With all due respect to the church, never trust a church leader to do what is right. If a crime is committed, report to the cops, not the church.

  • CTR Sister Plano, TX
    May 17, 2018 1:18 p.m.

    This dear Sister was willing to serve a full time mission for the Lord. She believed in the ecclesiastical order of making things right ten times. She even entrusted her first born to the church through social services for adoption. She has shown the highest faith and sacrifice. Please be considerate of who she is -a child of God. We are the Church.

  • Moracle Blackshear, GA
    May 17, 2018 11:51 a.m.

    In cases such as this, where a crime is charged -- which should be tried in civil court, not in Church court (See D&C 134:8 below), the Church is highly unlikely to assume authority to pronounce a judgment, thus encroaching upon the civil court's domain and interfering with the established lawful judicial procedure and process of the land...

    (D&C 134:8) -- "We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense... by the laws of that government in which the offense is committed..."

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    May 17, 2018 10:55 a.m.

    Many are saying that they hope that the church makes this right.

    What does that even mean?

    You can't unring a bell - the reputation of Joesph Bishop is gone, maybe he deserves it, maybe he doesn't, he's at least partially at fault here but the extent to which is being claimed lacks proof and the accuser doesn't have a credible past. how does the church fix that? Changes in operation already went into effect long ago.

    The accuser has clearly had many problems through life, that being said people who are abused sometime have struggles as they are dealing with emotions that humans shouldn't deal with - and while my heart goes out to her due to her past regardless of the veracity of this accusation - how does the church make that right?

    There is nothing to be made right, and the person who decided to leak this did the damage that the church was hoping to avoid and that would make the church unlikely to settle now (private settlements legally are to keep things private, once you make it public what's the point? true or not this damage the church's image for some people).

    I can only conclude that those saying that are hoping to see the church hurt in some financial manner.

  • neece Hyde Park, UT
    May 17, 2018 10:08 a.m.

    The way that I see it (and most will or will not agree). Yes, She was apparently was sexual assaulted in one way or the other. She also reported it multiple times! Yes, the statute of limitations has more than ran out... however, and this gets me... Why didn't the church act on this? She is only coming out with this when she found out that nothing had been done! Again, Why not? So here is my opinion... Since she did report it again and again and the church failed to protect her by taking care of the situation... I feel even though the statue has ran out...

    I think we also should take into consideration the 70's & 80's still had a different attitude against women. Sexual assault is just now really coming to the front that it wrong? Look at Bill Cosby and all the Famous actors, Producers, etc. that are finally being addressed!

    I know this church is true! however it is ran by flawed people! The purpose of life is to become more Christ like... (some people more than others).

    So... I do kind of think the Church should be accountable! They should settle in one way or the other! Anyone in this situation would feel betrayed also!

  • Br. Jones East Coast, MD
    May 17, 2018 9:52 a.m.

    @ AZcoug8 - thanks for clarification, I mistakenly thought it was a newspaper article and it was a TV interview instead.

  • Grumpy Grandpa Sandy, UT
    May 17, 2018 9:22 a.m.

    @ Strom Thurmond:

    "There is no statute of limitations
    This is a civil case"

    Where are you coming from?

    Do your research before stating mistaken opinions as if they were facts:

    The utcourts.gov URL won't post here. Google "utah statute of limitations for civil cases" and you will find the following:
    A statute of limitation is the time allowed to file a court case.
    Statutes of limitation apply in both civil and criminal cases.
    The statute of limitations for some cases is as short as six months,
    while some serious criminal offenses have no limit and can be filed at any time,
    even decades after the crime occurred.
    Most statutes of limitation range from one to eight years.

    I'm grumpy because I was told to stop spoiling the grandkids.

  • esodije ALBUQUERQUE, NM
    May 17, 2018 1:05 a.m.

    What part of this motion wasn’t expected? Denson’s lawyers tried to be as creative as possible to skirt around the SOL issues, but I don’t think very much of the complaint is going to survive the 12(b)(6) motion. The parties could be fighting on appeal for years before the defendants even have to file an answer to the complaint, if they ever do. The scope of what remains, and what there is to corroborate it, will determine the settlement value of the case.

  • mrjj69 bountiful, UT
    May 16, 2018 11:30 p.m.

    i don't see why there should be exceptions to the law for her.

  • JaneB Wilsonville, OR
    May 16, 2018 9:57 p.m.

    I find those who condemn her for not reporting the rape within the statute of limitations incredibly clueless about sexual assault. She was 21, he was the pres of the MTC. Do the math.

    I hope the church makes this situation right. I have been disappointed so far.

  • Romneyiswrongforutah Sandy, UT
    May 16, 2018 9:22 p.m.

    I don't care what feminists say. It will always be innocent until proven guilty. Also evidence is important.

  • AZgirl2 Mesa, AZ
    May 16, 2018 8:45 p.m.

    IJ - have you been a victim of sexual assault by a person who holds a high position in the church? Have you had the details of your life examined and answered questions from 15 men while the person who assaulted you is also in the room? Have you been told that you cannot have a support person (your spouse) in the room with you as you testify and answer questions because it would "violate the accused's privacy"? I have experienced all of this - I am also an active, participating member of the church who thinks there needs to be a lot of changes made in how sexual assault and sexual abuse disclosures are handled!

  • caljimw Orem, UT
    May 16, 2018 7:59 p.m.

    The trouble for everybody involved is that the story is out. The truth no longer matters, except for those on both sides whose reputations are besmirched by the story. For them there should be sympathy.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    May 16, 2018 6:50 p.m.

    The law is the law, if it's supposed to be thrown out over procedural matters then it should be thrown out, but of course, it being thrown out wouldn't mean the alleged claims aren't true.

  • JapanCougar Layton, UT
    May 16, 2018 6:17 p.m.

    Often in these comments sections you see two groups:
    One that wants to see the LDS church bleed at any and every turn.
    One that wants to defend the LDS church and its leaders at all times.

    I think in a situation like this, it helps to change the parties involved in the dispute and see if your response would be different. If this were a woman complaining of a sexual assault by a university professor 30+ years ago, now attempting to sue or prosecute that professor and the university, would you respond differently?

    Also substitute the name of the university for that of your favorite and least favorite university and see if your response would be any different.

    Obviously, statutes of limitations exist for a reason, and were created independent of the parties involved in a lawsuit in order to avoid cases that lack evidence and would be more prone to emotional sentiment than fact.

  • Chessermesser West Valley City, UT
    May 16, 2018 6:02 p.m.

    According to Utah law, for civil suits for personal injury, the statue of limitation is four years. For all other possible civil issues the longest time limit is 6 years. Defendants have to petition the judge to dismiss based on the statue of limitation’s expiration.

    34 years is a long time to wait to file. Her attorney knows this. They filed because they want the Church to settle out of court. Nice try, but it doesn’t look like the Church is settling.

  • batfink Australia, 00
    May 16, 2018 6:01 p.m.

    Claim and counter claim but ultimately no evidence, regardless of the statute of limitations.

    If she has made accusations against men before as has been noted, the judgements of those claims made by her will be taken into account if her prior claims were spurious.

    Interesting that her lawyer pushed for a financial settlement 2 months ago though when she claims she just wants the church to change the way it deals with cases of alleged sexual assault. Why would her lawyer push to settle prior to going to court when she supposedly wants change that a high profile case could bring?

    Too many things don't add up here.

  • Chessermesser West Valley City, UT
    May 16, 2018 5:49 p.m.

    In 1984 ANY of my daughters would have called home from the MTC if one was raped. I would have been on a plane to Provo within hours.

    The facts do NOT line up. She should have been crying and very upset. Her companion would have noticed it. Something would have been done within the hour.

    Instead, she hides it and has the fortitude to still stay in the MTC and then serve the rest of her mission?

    Maybe that really is the case, but I doubt it.

    When this came out one of her former missionary companions wrote about her in the comments. Are any of you out there? Anybody remember her from the MTC?

  • shamrock Salt Lake City, UT
    May 16, 2018 4:58 p.m.

    @strom thurman:

    You're right that this is a civil case, but you seem to think the statutes of limitation don't apply to civil cases. They do.

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    May 16, 2018 4:49 p.m.

    bed or no bed,

    It's the MTC, there are clearly tons of beds and desks and chairs - so let's establish that there are for sure storage rooms with beds in them.

    About the room - I'm rather sure that every building in the MTC in Provo has multiple storage rooms. Some say it has a bed, some say it didn't - are we even talking about the same room? Maybe the bed was there and 10 years later i slept on it when it was put to use - nobody knows. (this is why there are statutes of limitations)

    Having a bed doesn't mean that something bad happened once or routinely.

    it reminds me of something a girl I knew said about a rule at Rick's College about not letting your feet leave the ground with guys in your apartment, she just said "what will that stop them from doing?"

    What does it matter? a bed doesn't cause nor prevent rape.

    I think we'd all know by now if it was a big pimp bed with red sheets and mirrors around it - but as it stands it's a detail that really doesn't add much of anything except for those who visually creative in judgment.

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    May 16, 2018 4:30 p.m.

    readers,

    There is no statute of limitations

    This is a civil case

  • shamrock Salt Lake City, UT
    May 16, 2018 4:25 p.m.

    This statute of limitations issue is not as cut-and-dried as some posters seem to think. Under current Utah law, there's no statute of limitations for rape; under the old law, there was. It'll be up to the judge to determine whether the Legislature intended to let long-ago rapists off the hook, while still holding later rapists accountable.

    Also, for those of you who are arguing that the Church did nothing wrong, that's not so clear either. If a rape victim reports the crime to church leaders, and those leaders ignore the problem, they can, in fact, be held accountable in some cases.

    Before a trial, we're all guessing at the facts because we're not privy to all the information held by the parties. The Church is saying that even if the woman was raped, that's irrelevant because this crime was committed so long ago. A judge may not agree and a trial would give all of us more information to evaluate the case.

  • AZcoug8 Mesa, AZ
    May 16, 2018 3:51 p.m.

    @taatmk

    I didn't give an opinion on it. Cinci Man asked for the article. I helped him- judgement free. You see how that works?

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    May 16, 2018 3:48 p.m.

    Let this go to a jury, and they can decide.

    And, yes, the janitor said there was a bed.

    Try looking a little harder.

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    May 16, 2018 3:34 p.m.

    Taamtk

    Try this search. The first article is from 2News

    "janitor confirms mtc bed"

    He did confirm the existence of a bed.

    "The former employee, who asked not to be identified, says the room did have a bed, TV and VHS Player. "

    "The employee said the room was in an otherwise unfinished area in a lower junction part of the building. The area provided access to the building’s water pipes, electrical lines and tunnels connected to other campus structures. It was only accessible after passing through more than one locked door. The employee said the room itself had no windows, but was fully furnished inside. The furnishings included a single bed, similar to those used in the MTC dorms, and a TV and VHS player on a mobile cart."

    "That’s why the fully built out little room down there was so odd. It had nice floors, walls, ceilings but no windows. It looked like almost any other training room in the MTC with the exception of the bed of course. It was just really odd and totally out of place.”

    “There is no earthly reason she should’ve known that room existed, and no reason anyone should’ve been in the room alone with her.”

  • Nunn24 Salt Lake City, UT
    May 16, 2018 3:28 p.m.

    @taatmk

    KUTV: "When asked about these new details, Eric Hawkins, spokesperson for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, said, 'Yes, Joseph Bishop had an secondary office in the basement of the MTC. People we have interviewed who were familiar with the office report it did not contain a bed.'"

    Notice that Hawkins did not say that ALL the people interviewed reported that the room did not contain a bed.

    An important distinction.

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    May 16, 2018 3:06 p.m.

    "The right thing is to admit this man did at least inappropriate things to which he has confessed. The consequence is to excommunicate this man because of the position he held."

    You sure about that?

    Culture in the world and church has evolved in major ways since the 1980's. There are things that we all look back on and say "wow, were we really allowed to do that back then, so risky" and yet I look back on the things where I now perceive shouldn't have happened, and nothing bad happened back then.

    He had an room which may or may not have had a bed in it - and in the MTC you of course have tons and tons of beds in storage - again 20/20 hindsight I'm sure the MTC has wrapped all extra bed in plastic wrap and store them upright.

    He had a one on one meeting, or perhaps a series of them. Recently the rule was not to do that.

    What happened in that meeting isn't actually known.

    which of those mistakes should he be excommunicated for? excommunication isn't a punishment, it's an opportunity to repent, if he's not confessing do you excommunicate him for having a bed in a storage room?

    I'm not saying he's innocent, but i'm questioning if he's guilty, and you don't know either.

  • taatmk Brigham City, UT
    May 16, 2018 2:46 p.m.

    @ AZcoug8 - Mesa, AZ

    In that same article you refer to, others report that the room did not contain a bed. It was described as a secondary office, without a bed. Who to believe?

  • london_josh Lincoln, CA
    May 16, 2018 2:45 p.m.

    I read through the long transcripts.

    first of all, the man is recovering from surgery, elderly, and on medication.

    second, he's remarkably blunt in many things, things that one wouldn't bring up to others, and goes into some detail on some embarrassing things that may be interpreted in various ways. but repeatedly, he denies his involvement with her over and over again in the case of rape.

    I'm glad I'm not a judge in this matter, and I don't think it's my business - but she got him to confess to everything from speeding tickets to late library books and tells her repeatedly that he wishes he could ease her pain but he doesn't remember it that way.

    third, as Bishop is speaking he's dropping a few marbles from time to time. He brings up things that are out of place and can be misinterpreted on the subject matter, he doesn't sound like he has a sound mind.

    fourth - the MTC has about 8000 beds in it, so a basement storage room might have some beds in it too.

    Bishop absolutely displayed some poor judgment 30+ years ago - there is a predator here, is it the one who made more than 10 similar claims on other men or Bishop - we really won't ever know and I'm glad I'm not the judge.

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    May 16, 2018 2:37 p.m.

    Do what is right, let the consequence follow.

    The right thing is to admit this man did at least inappropriate things to which he has confessed. The consequence is to excommunicate this man because of the position he held.

    As a faithful member, I hope the Church has nothing to do with this man who violated sacred trust. And I hope that the Church in the future deals with these issues more openly and severely.

  • Back Talk Federal Way, WA
    May 16, 2018 2:33 p.m.

    Rape is a crime. She should have reported that to the police. If it can be proven, there really shouldnt be a statute of limitations on rape. See what is happening with the CA Rapists after 50 years. Does he get charged with murders but is off the hook for the rapes? Better not.

    As for the Church knowingly letting a predator lead young women, I dont believe that is the case here. It is a shame this woman is basically saying that Mr Bishop had raped women before and the Church knew about it and still gave him callings over young women. Just because this man confesses to having a fixation on sex (no actual acts were every described) that does not make him a predator. No one is prefect and all the church can do is set up practices that help protect all people and youth.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    May 16, 2018 2:10 p.m.

    I am really glad to hear all these posters saying the statute of limitations can not and should not be used. Bill they are calling for your prosecution and conviction. Hillary, they are calling for your conviction for obstruction of justice.

  • taatmk Brigham City, UT
    May 16, 2018 1:53 p.m.

    A person has not fully repented, nor can they expect full forgiveness, until they face the consequences of the laws of the land when the sin involved directly victimizing another soul. That is called recompense and restitution. That is the counsel I have given the confessor when I have held leadership positions.

  • AZcoug8 Mesa, AZ
    May 16, 2018 1:51 p.m.

    @ Cincy Man

    It's on KUTV- you can google 'MTC employee confirms bed'

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    May 16, 2018 1:27 p.m.

    @Br. Jones - East Coast, MD

    "a former MTC employee did come forward and confirm the presence of a basement room with a bed in it. Look at past Deseret News and Tribune articles for the info."

    I searched and found nothing. Can you direct us to an article that states what you say? Thanks, sincerely. This would likely affect the actions of the Church on this matter.

    Every article I've read so far states that Ms. Denson talks about the room and bed. I would imagine that if such a witness exists, there would be more mention of that in every article.

  • AZcoug8 Mesa, AZ
    May 16, 2018 1:25 p.m.

    All those immediately jumping to the church's defense, just PLEASE for one second think that there's at least a chance she's telling the truth. Don't let your love for the church blind you to the fact that no matter what did happen (and I happen to believe her), she is HURTING, and likely has been for 30+ years.

    Pain is real, and slinging mud is not going to help- on either side.

  • kevin_g Provo, UT
    May 16, 2018 1:18 p.m.

    @Cinci Man
    "I just cannot wrap my arms around the fact that there could be a bed in a storage closet that
    no one else has come forward to have seen it."

    Former employee confirms 'odd' MTC basement room with bed and TV

  • Grumpy Grandpa Sandy, UT
    May 16, 2018 1:05 p.m.

    There are four courts here.

    1) Court of the Land with a judge, attorneys, and a jury.
    Whether or not we like it, the law must be followed. If there is a statute of limitations, the judge must abide by the law and dismiss the case. If the statute of limitations can be shown to not apply, then the case will move forward.

    2) Court of Public Opinion with everyone serving as armchair judges, attorneys, and juries.
    Based on what information we can glean from biased news reports we convict both plaintiff and defendant. This will continue regardless of the unknown truth.

    3) LDS Church court with a stake president and high council serving as jurors and judges. This court is held in private and we do not know what happens. The plaintiff is claiming the church leaders over decades did nothing. We do not know and cannot know the truthfulness of this claim.

    4) Court on High, with Jesus as the judge. This is when there will be Hell to pay. The truth will be known and a fair/unbiased judgement rendered.

    For me, the first three courts are irrelevant as I am doing my best to prepare myself for the last. court.

    I'm grumpy because I was told to stop spoiling the grandkids.

  • carman Wasatch Front, UT
    May 16, 2018 12:42 p.m.

    To Impartial&:

    re: "Depends on the Judge, if he/she is a member. Then, the suit will be dismissed, to be filed in another district."

    You're not being very impartial here. In my experience, LDS people are often more harsh on themselves than they are on others. Your comment may say more about personal biases than it does about the judge or outcome of this case.

  • IJ Hyrum, Ut
    May 16, 2018 12:03 p.m.

    Scott - have you ever been invited to sit on a disciplinary council? How do you know what you are saying is true? I have been called to serve several times in positions that require me to sit on these councils and 1) it is not something one aspires to 2) all have been councils of love and concern for both the victim and the perpetrator 3) there has never been preferential treatment to anyone; if anything, those in leadership positions are dealt with in a "more harsh" manner than the rank-and-file members. 4) these kinds of proceedings are not publicized because it is none of your business. These councils are in place to help individuals repent, and repentance is between the person and the Lord and is none of your business. If there are legal actions that need to take place, then we defere to the law enforcement authorities; then it becomes public.

  • TheProudDuck Newport Beach, CA
    May 16, 2018 11:57 a.m.

    Unless Utah law is dramatically different from other states' when it comes to statutes of limitations, this seems like a pretty simple call.

    The delayed-discovery rule generally only applies when you didn't discover you were harmed until later, not when you learn what a third party did or didn't do in response to the harm.

    The underlying harm here is the original assault.

  • Jscsmpozano American Fork, UT
    May 16, 2018 11:27 a.m.

    Alma 36:13
    13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

    Alma's memory was enhanced, as to remember all of the wrong he had done! This is an eternal faculty that is temporally restored to awake our consciousness to help us repent. This same faculty will be fully restored at our resurrected state, and remembrance of everything we have not forsaken or repented of, will be restored or remembered! At the end justice will prevail, I am so sorry for this horrible incident!

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    May 16, 2018 11:19 a.m.

    Because of the man's position of power, he should have been excommunicated on the spot for even minor offenses to which he has already confessed. If an MTC president asks a women to disrobe...he should be excommunicated. Not because of the severity of the act, but because he has brought blight upon the name of the church and violated sacred trust.

    If MTC President's can't behave themselves, then we pretty much are at the point we need to teach all of our children that anything is possible in the church...even abuse at the hands of very high ranking authorites.

    Teach your children that men are fallible and that if anybody asks or does something questionable, the child has zero responsibility to acquiesce to anything and should report it immediately to parents and authorities.

    I'm active LDS, devoted and sustain the leadership of the Church. I hope they've all learned lessons on how to deal with this crap soon, more seriously and without a hint of cover up. Not a single hint...

  • MoreMan San Diego, CA
    May 16, 2018 11:08 a.m.

    The church is involved in this part. Not the assault. "negligent and intentional infliction of emotional distress, fraud, fraudulent nondisclosure and fraudulent concealment." This is all currently happening, thus no statute of limitations.

  • PingAnser Mapleton, UT
    May 16, 2018 10:56 a.m.

    There is something about this story that bugs me. I get that she says that she talked to Church leaders and she didn't know what they did. However, she apparently didn't talk to a District Attorney, who would tell her what he was doing about it. She says the man raped her. That is a crime punishable by jail time and the statute of limitations runs out when you don't press charges. It isn't a question of whether you talked to the Church or your visiting teachers--it is a question as to whether you talked to the police and a District Attorney chooses to prosecute.

    If he did do it he deserves jail time. I have no desire to shield a rapist. I am glad the statute of limitations was apparently changed, and wish it was longer for other crimes. I think a minimum of 7 years is appropriate for any crime, and rape and sexual assault should be open ended.

    I am an active LDS member and I love the Church. But if there is one thing I would change in the LDS culture, it is that when a crime is committed you go to the police first, and the presiding authority second. The Church is not equipped to investigate crimes--the police are.

  • Scott1 Salt Lake City, UT
    May 16, 2018 10:22 a.m.

    A few on here have said that what happens to Mr. Bishop discipline-wise is none of our business. I disagree.

    The church seems to give a higher status to its local and general leaders. To me it is kind of like a good ole boys network. Leaders can sit in meetings and secretly discuss the dirty laundry of members, but it is forbidden for members to criticize their leaders.

    If a rank and file member had been accused of this, the leaders would have been like flies to a light to remedy it. However, if a leader is accused, it is much less believable and pretty much ignored.

  • thinkr2 Mendon, UT
    May 16, 2018 10:17 a.m.

    My dad is now 87 and his memory is so bad that he sometimes thinks I am his father. If someone accused him of anything there is no way he could defend himself no matter what it was.

    Maybe that's the reason this wasn't brought up years ago.

  • SorryNotSorry Draper, UT
    May 16, 2018 9:53 a.m.

    Those of you complaining about the statute, I’d like to know your thoughts when you are accused of doing something (even 10 years later) and not asking your attorney to file a motion to dismiss the claims due to the statute of limitations expiring.

  • Third try screen name Mapleton, UT
    May 16, 2018 9:49 a.m.

    Perhaps the most interesting thing about this case is that the federal government concerns itself with a rape allegation.

    She was of age, not a minority and it all took place (allegedly) within the State of Utah. Why is this a federal case?

    Don't they have better things to do, like asylum cases at the San Diego border station?

  • LivinLarge Bountiful, UT
    May 16, 2018 9:39 a.m.

    When you hire an attorney for a civil complaint, you're not looking for justice...it's all about the money!

  • KiddleL Pleasant Grove, UT
    May 16, 2018 9:19 a.m.

    My heart goes out to Mrs Denson! I can’t imagine how painful this has been for her through the years. I hope she can somehow get justice. I’m just not sure this is the LDS church’s responsibility to make this right.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    May 16, 2018 9:18 a.m.

    So if the Church wants to impose the statute of limitations on wrongful deeds it has done, or done by its agent, then I get to rely on the same statute of limitations for any of my misdeeds. This is a new twist!

  • dmcvey Los Angeles, CA
    May 16, 2018 9:16 a.m.

    The church is on the wrong side here.

  • Rick for Truth Provo, UT
    May 16, 2018 9:07 a.m.

    This seems to be a play for a civil award of cash. Settlement out of court is more than likely. Truth in this, he said she said, will be difficult to discern and establish in a court of law. People need to seek an attorney when such an event occurs.

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    May 16, 2018 9:02 a.m.

    @Partial7

    "Depends on the Judge, if he/she is a member. Then, the suit will be dismissed, to be filed in another district. "

    Don't you ever get tired of saying things you have no clue in?

  • chief_68 New York, NY
    May 16, 2018 8:59 a.m.

    Why isn't Denson's lawyer also quoted in this article? It only presents the rebuttals from Bishop's and the LDS Church's side. Perhaps the reporting could be more equally representative.

  • Br. Jones East Coast, MD
    May 16, 2018 8:40 a.m.

    @Cinci Man: a former MTC employee did come forward and confirm the presence of a basement room with a bed in it. Look at past Deseret News and Tribune articles for the info.

  • EastCoastM Amherst, NH
    May 16, 2018 8:39 a.m.

    Lawyers stating the suit should be dismissed are not trying to minimize what allegedly happened. Few rape accusations are false (possibly between 2-8% of reported rapes but the number is likely closer to 2%) so the assumption is that an allegation is true..

    The real issue is, as the article covers, statutes of limitation. If you want them changed, talk to your legislators. Limitations serve important purposes including encouraging more accurate evidence (for and against) collection and management. How do you collect legal evidence for something that occurred 30 years ago? In some cases (murder), it's possible but rape not reported until many years later? If there is physical evidence it will be submitted during the discovery process. Otherwise, it comes down to one person's word against another. How is that a fair trial for either party?

    A "confession" many years after the incident isn't sufficient evidence. Memory is far from perfect. This doesn't mean she's making up the allegation, it just means from a legal standpoint it's difficult to prosecute or defend the case.

    This is a tragic event but there is no legal basis for the trial right now. That might be unfortunate

  • Ben H Clearfield, UT
    May 16, 2018 8:33 a.m.

    Don't read too much into this either way. It is standard procedure for the defense in every lawsuit. I would have been surprised and disappointed if the defense had not asked for a dismissal. After the judge refuses to dismiss, then there will be attempts to settle out of court.

  • Flashback Kearns, UT
    May 16, 2018 8:23 a.m.

    The Church isn't hiding behind the law any more than anyone else would be in a similar circumstance. Over 30 years is too long and justice would not be served. At this point, it is a "he said, she said" situation. There is never justice in these types of cases for either party. Only a "pound of flesh". That is apparently what she wants.

    Whether or not the Church did anything to Bishop years ago is irrelevant. Maybe he got church discipline, maybe he didn't. In any effect, it's none of our business what the Church may or may not have done to him internally. And it would have been years ago and the repentance process would have run its course also, years ago.

    I wouldn't have any problem with the Church assisting her with her issues that supposedly come from that incident in the MTC through counseling, job assistance, etc.

  • Really!? Logan, UT
    May 16, 2018 8:19 a.m.

    There is a statute of limitations for a reason. If the judge doesn't dismiss the case, he/she is basically legislating from the bench and should be prosecuted for usurping legislative authority.

  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    May 16, 2018 8:13 a.m.

    "I hate to agree with the church, but women really need to learn go stop sitting on this stuff. "

    You might have missed the part where she alleges she tried to tell 10 different Church leaders about the abuse and nothing happened.

  • Thucydides Herriman, UT
    May 16, 2018 8:09 a.m.

    What would Jesus do?

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    May 16, 2018 8:07 a.m.

    She may be telling the truth. But I just cannot wrap my arms around the fact that there could be a bed in a storage closet that no one else has come forward to have seen it. No one moved it in or out. No one saw these two go in or out of the closet. I imagine someone would have come forward by now. If not, I'm sure the MTC has records of who were custodians, etc. And surely the investigations would have uncovered more than we are being told.

    What is the truth here?

  • OHBU Columbus, OH
    May 16, 2018 7:59 a.m.

    "Why do you get to determine when it is "hiding behind the law" and when it is justifiably using that very same law? You and I have no idea what the church has or hasn't done, or will do, with this man. "

    That's what a trial is for--to draw out the truth of what the church did or didn't do. They aren't even attempting to defend themselves on that account. They're trying to say - "you waited too long, too bad"

    Incidentally, it should be noted they're saying the statute of limitations--as it existed back then--has run out. That law has changed, and for good reason. Today, there is no statute of limitations on rape (Utah Code Ann. 76-1-301). So all this discussion about why the law is in place is deflection. As a society, since that time, we've decided those reasons are invalid. This might also be how the church loses this particular appeal. The judge will need to look at the language of the legislation of when this change was passed to find intent--whether it was intended to change relative to all outstanding and potential cases, or whether it is only valid from the point the law was instituted forward.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    May 16, 2018 7:58 a.m.

    Depends on the Judge, if he/she is a member. Then, the suit will be dismissed, to be filed in another district. Hopefully, this gets dealt with outside of the Utah justice system. If the church and Bishop really believe they have no liability, they'd welcome a fair shake.

  • MCW2 St George, UT
    May 16, 2018 7:46 a.m.

    "Regardless of" the Statutes of Limitations.
    How does one resolve the difference between: She says vs He says.
    She claims: . . .
    In short, even assuming .. .
    she did not "discover" . ..

    And we expect He to be able to pull together a defence after 30 years!

    Back to the "Statutes of Limitations".
    Do we allow people to make make accusations at any point in time? i.e. 100 years?
    Why wait 30 years and then expect to "change the world"?

    (Beside the point - I believe there is a point that ALL will be resolved. )
    If waiting 30 years has worked, How is today going to make things better?

  • moniker lewinsky Taylorsville, UT
    May 16, 2018 7:29 a.m.

    I hate to agree with the church, but women really need to learn go stop sitting on this stuff. Stop acting like helpless little victims who are afraid to do anything.
    I had a #metoo moment as a teen, but at least I reported it right away. At least I tried. (Nothing happened, but at least that's not on me.)
    I understand it can be hard to report things. But going on for 30 years like nothing happened and then deciding one day that you suddenly want justice? Nah.
    How do we expect men to stop behaving this way when we refuse to tell them, in the moment, NO? We need to start telling them, in the moment, it won't be tolerated.

  • Lolly Lehi, UT
    May 16, 2018 7:16 a.m.

    The church is not hiding behind the law. They were unfortunately made a part of the law suit and have to protect themselves. They did nothing wrong and they are doing nothing wrong now. It is a strange situation and I am not about to judge any party.

  • Bifftacular Spanish Fork, Ut
    May 16, 2018 7:13 a.m.

    @CTR Sister - Why do you get to determine when it is "hiding behind the law" and when it is justifiably using that very same law? You and I have no idea what the church has or hasn't done, or will do, with this man. We also both don't really know what did or didn't happen between this woman and him. Based on the tape, I personally think it's clear there were definitely inappropriate and yes, perhaps illegal things that occurred but to what extent, only those two know for sure. She could be exaggerating...or maybe she's telling the full truth. Who knows. But that's underscores the very reason why you can't legally wait 30 years to bring it up in a court of law. The church is 100% justified in filing this motion. If the man wants to take responsibility for whatever he did, that's entirely on his head.

  • Hoosier87 American Fork, UT
    May 16, 2018 6:50 a.m.

    I'm with the church on this one - toss this case.

    I listened to that entire 3+hour nonsense recording, this seems like a money grab to me anyway.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    May 16, 2018 6:47 a.m.

    So did her rape "run out" too? Sorry; time doesn't heal all wounds and the woman deserves justice.

  • LeftField Auckland, 00
    May 16, 2018 5:23 a.m.

    "The purpose of statutes of limitations is clear — they are legislative expressions of public policy that encourage potential plaintiffs to bring their actions promptly, before the causes get stale from lost evidence or faulty memories," Bishop's lawyer Andrew Deiss wrote.

    This would be an utterly naive statement if one thought the lawyer who wrote it actually believed it.

  • island boy West Jordan, UT
    May 16, 2018 3:08 a.m.

    If the things in the accusation really did happen, this guy should be drawn and quartered and dragged over hot coals....but why is it coming to light only after 34 years? After all this time, the claim seems a little fishy. I could go back and make a claim against the elementary school teacher that I had a crush on, but that alone doesn't make it true, but maybe I could make a little money on it, include the school district in the lawsuit, and on and on...which is why there is a statute of limitations.

    Of course she wouldn't ever know if the church took any action, as the church never releases those kinds of things. If action were taken, it would be only between the person and the Lord (and appropriate church leaders). The only way it gets released is if the person releases it.

    Seems that these days, if someone makes a claim, then the accused person is deemed guilty, just because the claim was made, especially 34 years later... Something stinky going on here. Just one man's opinion..

  • Michael Davidson American Fork, UT
    May 16, 2018 1:13 a.m.

    It will be surprising if these motions are not granted. Whatever did or did not happen is entirely irrelevant to the statute of limitations, the only thing that matters is whether the claim was brought timely, and these were not.

  • CTR Sister Plano, TX
    May 15, 2018 11:53 p.m.

    Our church should be above and not hide behind the law (statute of limitations) when it addresses the vulnerable souls that desperately need our care and support. Our Lord is ever so mindful of that one lamb that was caused to be lost. Let's not let him down.

  • Oh Really? Salt Lake City, UT
    May 15, 2018 11:09 p.m.

    Whatever the truth is, let it run its course.