Israel is a wonderful place. Ishmael may be blessed to be a great nation. But
Ishmael and his mother were expelled from Abraham's household for trying to
ursurp Isaac's position as the convenant son.Personally I
believe there will never be peace in "the land of Jerusalem". It will
end, in the lord's due time in Armageddon. The Prophet Joseph Smith sent
apostle Orson Hyde to the land of Jerusalem to dedicate it for the return of the
The apostle Paul was let out of Damascus, in a basket, by night (Acts 9).
Jesus came secretly to Jerusalem, to the Feast of Tabernacles, "for his time
had not yet full come" (John, chapter 7). It makes sense to stay alive
until your mission is completed.
@JohnInSLC. “If there is a choice, it will be between war or peace among
all God's children.” In Mt24:21, "For then there will be a
great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world
until now, nor ever shall." Jesus is referring to the event of
Mt 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the
man also known as the Antichrist. In Mt 24:29-30 “Immediately after the
tribulation of those days . . . the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then
all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming
on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory." Jesus defines the
Great Tribulation (v.21) as beginning with the revealing of the abomination of
desolation (v.15) and ending with Christ's second coming (v.30).RE:Forgiveness is the Answer.Prophet's in the Heroes of Faith(
Chapter Heb 11:37.They were stoned,* they were sawn in two, they were killed
with the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute,
afflicted, ill-treated .E.g... The Prophet *Isaiah was martyred.
Origen refers to the death of Isaiah by being sawn in two. As do Justin Martyr,
SirRichard1987"Moses demonstrated courage in crisis and war. So
did Joshua, Abraham, Enoch, Nephi, King Benjamin, Captain Moroni, Helaman,
Mormon, and Moroni. Look at the confidence of Esther, Paul, Abinadi, the sons of
Mosiah in the face of danger.Curious that Russ Nelson fled for his own
safety while leaving BYU-Jerusalem Center staff and students on their own. Two
thumbs down."How many of them did what they did when they were
90+ years old? Maybe Abraham or Enoch because they lived to like 150 years back
then. Come on, dude. I'm pretty sure my actions are going to be very
different if/when I'm 90 years old than when I'm in my 30's.
"Perhaps it is not time yet, but it is clear that the LDS church will have
to clearly take sides. Islam has its moments of near decency. Those moments are
few and far between. Judah and Benjamin are of the Lord's chosen and
covenant people. The choice is clear."BobP:To
you--as an avowed Zionist, maybe. But to the rest of us, the choice you pose is
false. Although Ishmael's progeny are not of the promise made to Jacob,
they nonetheless are recognized by God as a great nation. If there is a choice,
it will be between war or peace among all God's children. My guess is the
Church will choose the former, even if the latter seems inevitable.
I don't understand anyone second-guessing a Prophet's decision,
because I sustain him as a prophet, seer, and revelator. To use the
word "flee" seems overly dramatic and condescending, as this hardly
compares in magnitude as when Abraham fled the land of Ur, Lot fled Sodom &
Gomorrah, Moses fled Egypt, Joseph fled King Herod with baby Jesus, Joseph led
the Saints to flee Kirkland & Missouri, Brigham fled Illinois....all at the
Lord's directon.Its amazing to me what uninformed people can
conjure up in their minds, thinking their ignorance of all the facts and details
still enables them to expect their "armchair quarterbacking" taken
seriously by others. For those of us who pray daily for the safety
of our Prophet, and who raised our hands to sustain him, and who listened to him
speak about receiving Church-wide and personal revelation just 2 weeks ago,
there is no second-guessing his minutest decisions.
Tekakaromatagi posted:=There was a comment about dwindling air
space. Planes in and out of the middle=East sometimes don't go in
straight paths.Tekakaromatagi is right. So many posters here are
implying that Russell Nelson and Jeffrey Holland fled out of fear for their
lives. But "dwindling air space" might very possibly mean that if they
don't leave early they may have to leave late, even very late, and that
would have thrown their plans for visiting other nations (Zimbabwe, India,
Thailand, etc.) into chaos. I don't think it had anything to do with fear.
BobP. Perhaps it is not time yet, but it is clear that the LDS church will have
to clearly take sides. True, God Blesses Those Who Bless Israel. God
promises Abraham: "‘I will bless those who bless you
12:3 .Anticipating the gospel, it already contained the doctrine of
justification by faith, in which the essence of the *gospel consisted.Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith and announced
‘the*gospel’ in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed
through you."(Gal 3:8)
Perhaps it is not time yet, but it is clear that the LDS church will have to
clearly take sides. Islam has its moments of near decency. Those moments are
few and far between. Judah and Benjamin are of the Lord's chosen and
covenant people. The choice is clear.Remember also that the
Prophet Joseph Smith sent Orson Hyde to dedicate the "land of Jerusalem"
for the return of the Jews. That makes the Lord a Zionist, apparently to the
dismay of some badly misguided souls on this forum.I am 5th
generation LDS, the first of my ancestors having joined in the 1830's. I
am well over 78 and I have been a Zionist since I can remember. I am sorry that
President Nelson will miss the tourist part of his visit, he is wiser than I.
It seems no one wants to consider the part Trump has played in this whole thing.
"His original itinerary had included visiting the Western Wall, the Garden
Tomb and the Sea of Galilee."I LOVE those sites, but I've
lived in Israel and know that often plans are changed due to the political
climate. So he changed his itinerary. He didn't visit all the sites that he
had wanted to and planned to. When you're in charge of the prophet's
itinerary, then you can make the decision. I firmly believe the prophet goes
where he is supposed to go. Maybe someone in Africa needs him early.
Good grief. People are complaining that he is leaving early? I assume those
same did not congratulate him for traveling in the first place. This is a fact
finding tour, not a first responder tour. They didn't come with band aids
and penicillin. However, from the facts they do find, do not be surprises when
the aid comes later.
There was a comment about dwindling air space. Planes in and out of the middle
East sometimes don't go in straight paths. During the ISIS days planes out
of Saudi Arabia would fly over the Iraq-Iran border to Turkish air space to
avoid going over western Iraq and eastern Syria.If you are on a trip
and you foresee that there maybe plane delays, you make adjustments to your
schedule.Arabic proverb, "Praise God and tie up your camel."
In otherwords, take reasonable efforts to safeguard yourself and possessions
without seeking God's intervention."
Sir Richard: Not sure if I want to call Jesus out on why didn't put all
those pharisees in place the first time they questioned his authority, or left
Lazarus in the tomb for an extra day, or asked His father to forgive the Roman
soldiers at His crucifiction.
President Nelson's decision was to not travel into the Galilee. Considering
the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee is claimed by Syria and the distance to
Damascus from there is short this is probably a wise move.President
Nelson stayed with members in Jerusalem as long as planned and stayed there for
a whole day after US air strikes made the whole area unstable.Even
in the case of Moses he stood afar off and Aaron and Hur held up his arms as
Joshua led an army in battle. President Nelson does not have an actual army, and
even if some of his security detail may be armed it is not with weapons to
counter the might of a modern army. Wgile God can protect us from
anything, he has not in general counseled us that if we walk right into the
cross fire of waring armies we will be safe. Jerusalem is not likely to be
targeted. Americans in the Galilee are which is why BYU Jerusalem students will
not be giing outside the city any time soon. With bomb throwing
protesters in Gaza travel in that direction is also not,advised.
The Church has consistently sought not to take a side in the disputes regarding
the status of Jerusalem. This was pointed out on multipke occasions
in multiple ways by my History of the Jews professor at BYU.
It would seem that where god’s mercy and a prophets presence is most
needed is ln the battle of misery and war more than in the house of peace and
Leester - utah, UTApril 14, 2018 9:49 a.m.The Red Cross moves into
the area.Doctors Without Borders move to the area.WHO moves into the
area.Journalists move into the area.The prophet of God leaves the
area.>>>>>Yep, the prophet left the
area and so would I.You might want to check what those organizations are
up to currently.Most of DWB are gone from Syria. Those that remain are
getting a paycheck from Assad. They can't even go beyond the range of
government forces. Unfortunate they can't provide aid in the area of
chemical attacks. You know, the people that suffered.
"Curious that Russ Nelson fled for his own safety while leaving
BYU-Jerusalem Center staff and students on their own."I think
the word "fled" is beyond dramatic here. The Jerusalem
center is very well fortified and has shelters, the local Arabs love the economy
the students bring and the jews love America.But there are crazy
people inside and outside of the church that view the possibility of prophets
dying in Jerusalem as a necessity for the second coming, therefore those
students get a huge target painted on them by the presence of president
Nelson.Right move under the circumstances.
Rabbi-The first shall be last and the last shall be first - the day
will come when the Savior will come and once again gather the Jewish people and
they too will know that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of all mankind. The
Prophet does not fall short of Christianity - he envelops it and lives a
Christ-like life. You don’t have to believe, but when he
speaks, he speaks as the Prophet for all God’s children. Remember, not all
believed the Savior....
Your true understanding of Christianity falls a great deal short here. The
Zionists speak very loud but they don't speak for the Jews.
According to the article, Elder Holland said, "I suspect none of us in this
room can understand the significance of this day .... But we will."I wish that had more context, because I want to understand the significance of
We don't need to know why they left; it isn't up to us. Good grief.
RE: enlightened generation. "You may not want to base your happiness or
faith on your belief that church leaders will always be protected. There is no
such guarantee of course. (ie Joseph Smith"e.g..The death of JS I
remember what Joseph said, a short time before he was slain in one of the last
sermons I ever heard him preach. Said he, “Men are here today who are
seeking my blood, and they are those who have held the[Mormon] Priesthood and
have received their washings and anointing’s; men who have received their
endowments.” I saw the faces of those men at that time, and they had a
hand in slaying the Prophet . (JoD v 4 p 149). Wilford Woodruff, December 21,
1856.Brigham Young comments on it.
” when you feel like
killing me for so doing, as some of the people did who called themselves
brethren in the days of Joseph Smith, look out for yourselves, for ‘false
brethren’ were the cause of Joseph's death, and I am not a very
righteous man”.(JoD v 3 p.49.)
Sir Richard - There are also many examples of righteous men and
women who fled the front lines and moved to more secure fortifications. Why
wouldn’t the Prophet of God not do the same? The article mentioned that
they would never leave those at the Jerusalem center if it were not safe for
them to continue. The Prophet along with those accompanying him have much more
@Leester: very good point . @Suzyk: You may not want to base your
happiness or faith on your belief that church leaders will always be protected.
There is no such guarantee of course. (ie Joseph & Hyrum Smith). If a lds
leader or any other inspired leader is killed by accident or by intent, it
should have zero affect on ones faith in the Divine. Most of Christ’s
ancient apostles were slaughtered etc. I purport that the belief that current
LDS-church leaders can’t be harmed is just another sad faith-promoting
false rumor and flawed understanding
I trust that President Nelson and those accompanying him will be safe. I have
much graver concerns for the people of Syria, as well as the integrity of a once
great USA. We cannot "make America great again" by attacking countries
that have done nothing to us.There is no solid evidence of a
chemical attack, let alone who might have done it, but let's destroy the
lack of evidence before an OPCW delegation can assess the situation. Among other
structures, a chemical facility was targeted and destroyed. So, Assad is a
monster for unleashing chemical warfare, but it's okay for us to blow toxic
materials all over the area. But wait, we are assured that no toxins were
released and no one was harmed. Conclusion: Either there was a functional
chemical lab and innocent people were endangered by the U.S. & its allies
deliberately dispersing its contents... or the lab was no longer making or
storing toxic chemicals! Game Over....
@leesterAnd none of the above are the single leader of a worldwide church
of >16M members. A single member of any of the others would hardly be
missed. I have done significant professional international volunteerism and
even in Jerusalem, but know that I would not be missed. Very good judgment on
President Nelson's part.
I admire so much what our Prophet is doing to carry the message of love, hope
and peace to people the world over. All of God's children need to hear
this beautiful message now, more than ever. We are all blessed because of what
he and Apostle Holland are doing.
Unlike the State Department the Church does not employ large svale armed guards
to get its leaders safe. This was a wise and prudent move.
I am surprised at all those that seem to continually use this forum to criticize
the leaders of the Church. The Prophet apparently accomplished the
purposes of his visit to Jerusalem, which was to uplift, inspire, and hold a
District Conference of the members there. Apparently he didn't feel he
needed to inspire or carry a message to any of the historical sites that were
the only things left on his tour's itinerary in Jerusalem. The
Church has well-established security policies for all the Brethren and the
members in such places and times. I'm confident that he will use any extra
time in his next city to minister to those there, so nothing is lost. God
bless our Prophet.
Mario, Leester, and any others taking a negative stance on the press release
stating that our prophet is leaving Jerusalem to continue his world tour; please
understand that President Nelson, Brother Holland, and their group's
purpose for this tour is to minister throughout the world. That plan has not
changed, and Jerusalem is still considered the center of that tour. Those groups
you mention that are moving into the region are doing so due to their purpose.
Our prophet is making a decision to proceed to other sites scheduled for visits
based on the core purpose of this tour. Never was it the plan to stay in
Jerusalem the entire time. And, they have accomplished the core purpose for this
specific visit to Jerusalem. I pray you can find the faith required to
understand the reason for this decision.
@LeesterAll the organizations you mentioned are wonderful and their
service is greatly appreciated. Their numbers are many, but we have only one
prophet on earth today. It is important to be prudent in dangerous situations.
It took 93 years to raise up the current prophet. We don't want to take
To those criticizing President Nelson's decision to leave the area —
it isn't just his safety he has to think about but also those who are
traveling with him.It's important to remember that.
RE; BAKC “Powerful message from the Prophet of God and especially during
these tumultuous times. I love that he wants to go and minister to all the world
- just as the Savior would”.?Many people have been killed for their
faith through the ages. Martyr, is the Greek word in the New Testament which is
translated “witness.” Therefore, when Jesus said, “ye shall be
witnesses unto me” in Acts 1:8 it had great significance to them. This
does not mean that every follower of Christ will be killed for their faith, but
because the witness of the early church followers lead to their martyrdom.
,Acts chapters 6 and 7 Stephen’s martyrdom.Peter was martyred under Nero’s reign. He was killed in Rome around the
years 64 to 67. Tradition holds that he was crucified upside down. Like Andrew,
his brother, he is said to have refused to be crucified in the same manner as
Christ because he was unworthy to be executed in the same way as the Lord.
To the naysayers:There will come a time when two of them won't leave
Jerusalem....and they will be killed, as it says in Revelation 11 and the rest
of that epic happening---But that is not this day.
I am grateful the prophet has changed his tour. It is better safe than sorry.
For any naysayers, that say it was overly dramatic or shouldnt have happened, i
respond by saying God helps those who help themselves. I also say those persons
probably haven't spent much time in areas of hostility or potential harm.
Things can change on a dime and be quite ambiguous during a crisis.
It is better be able to focus on the safety of the masses in such times than
have high value persons in the area that could potentially drain resources and
end in the masses taking a back seat to rescue. I am grateful President Nelson
listened to his security team.
Good on President Nelson. No need to have a couple of captured American
religious leaders aggravating an already tense situation. No need to make
problems for the host country or create further dangers for BYU students.Leester and Mario, There is good Biblical precedent for God
prompting his Prophet to leave a situation.
The message of the Lord Jesus Christ is a message of hope, it is a message of
love, it is a message of joy,” said President Nelson. “It is
underlined in this time of a little heightened tension.”But
that wasn't enough was it.
A great opportunity lost.I was hoping he might be the first prophet
to ski Mount Hermon, the site some people believe was the Mount of the
Transfiguration.Of course, that would be unwise these days. Hard
against the Syrian border, it is where Israel keeps an eye on Jordan and
Syria.Maybe President Nelson will start sounding like our Jewish
friends now: "Next year in Jerusalem."
Dieter Uchtdorf provided an uplifting April 2017 General Conference address -
"Perfect Love Casteth Out Fear."Instead of fleeing danger for his
own safety, Russ Nelson should have demonstrated prophetic courage by staying in
Jerusalem with his fellow saints. He should now reflect on Dieter's
I've spent time in Jerusalem and travel a lot.There are huge
complications with travel and local tensions, there are 250 byu students and a
very small scattering of members in Jerusalem and Galilee, perhaps the Jordan
branches came as well.The trip timing does put people in danger.Furthermore, I've personally seen people trying to incite conflict
in Jerusalem to be the "two prophets murdered" prophecy, many don't
understand the sequence of events (or non literal symbolic metaphors used in
scripture) and view the murder of prophets as something to check off a list.
That puts everyone in danger.I've driven in Jerusalem in
military escort with visiting church leaders before, you don't do things
that any absolutely necessary in those situations.To those
criticizing president Nelson and elder Holland, I know them both very well and
would assume that they eventually listened to security on the topic matter but
it's for a long list of security reasons that this is wise. I'd
suggest that the critics have no real experience in these matters.
Mario-Did you stop and think that maybe the Lord told him to leave
and that was his protection?
We all need to keep in mind that the work and ministry that the the Lord's
Prophet, which is Presedent Russel M Nelson, as well as the ministry of Elder
Jeffrey R Holland (who is an Apostle of Jesus Christ), and also their wives (who
are a very important part of this ministry), is the work and ministry of Jesus
Christ, who heads their ministrative tour. I promise you that they are being
guided by His hands. I testify to all men, women, and youth that they are always
intuned to the Holy Spirit and that they will go and do, as well as speak, those
things that the Savior and Redeemer will lead them to do and speak. If they feel
inclined to leave early the ministry in any parts of their tour; I testify to
you that it is the will of the Head that leads them in this Holy Ministry Tour;
yea, because it is His work and ministry.
I believe fully that the Lord will protect His servants as they are about His
business. But I also recognize that should the Spirit whisper to the these
servants - It's time to leave. Then I trust that the prophet and his
associates will respond to the promptings and leave.
I think it a bit extreme to express criticism about the Prophet leaving the area
in lieu of the air strikes on Syria. A few comments noted that the State
Department is remaining; which I guess is supposed to suggest that there is no
danger here. I for one remain leery of the State Departments ability to protect
U.S. citizens in the MIddle East as I think back on Ambassador Stephens. I
don't think President Nelson and Elder Holland are armed.I am
certain that the day will come when prophets will remain in Jerusalem during
times of chaos, but this is not that day.
@ Mario and Lester. Were you involved in the discussions regarding President
Nelson's change of plans? Do you know all of the factors and issues that
were discussed? Is it possible that the state department advised President
Nelson to leave? Is it possible that there are other factors not having anything
to do with the unstable situation in Israel that prompted the change in plans?
It is interesting that people who were not involved in making a decision seem
to know better what decision should be made than those who are aware of all of
Being a prophet, he should know at the very least whether it is safe for him to
stay or not.
Moses demonstrated courage in crisis and war. So did Joshua, Abraham, Enoch,
Nephi, King Benjamin, Captain Moroni, Helaman, Mormon, and Moroni. Look at the
confidence of Esther, Paul, Abinadi, the sons of Mosiah in the face of
danger.Curious that Russ Nelson fled for his own safety while leaving
BYU-Jerusalem Center staff and students on their own. Two thumbs down.
Powerful message from the Prophet of God and especially during these tumultuous
times. I love that he wants to go and minister to all the world - just as the
Savior would. Thomas - you are always welcomed back.
The Red Cross moves into the area.Doctors Without Borders move to the
area.WHO moves into the area.Journalists move into the area.The prophet of God leaves the area.
Always the negative. Part of Mario's comment, "The State Department
didn’t leave, why would the Prophet?" No government in the region
would go against the State Department people there and the most powerful nation
in the world, but they could target President Nelson. I hope that answers the
question. I believe in inspiration and the good choice which I know
has happened with this decision.
Kind of a knee jerk reaction? You would think the Lord would protect him just so
long as reasonable, proactive measures where taken (exercise wisdom) etc., but
to just cut and leave altogether seems unnecessarily drastic. The State
Department didn’t leave, why would the Prophet?
“The message of the Lord Jesus Christ is a message of hope, it is a
message of love, it is a message of joy,” said President Nelson. “It
is underlined in this time of a little heightened tension.”That, for me, sums up just about everything we really need to know. Even
though I am no longer LDS, that particular message still seems to me the central
truth of our times.
I get so tense when I think of all the danger they are surrounded by. But then I
need to remind myself that Pres. Nelson and brother Holland have tremendous
testimonies and knowledge. We have to remember that Heavenly Father would watch
over them while they are doing His work. I will be at peace when they are back
in the United States of America. I know there are many praying for them and I
hope many lives will be changed for the good because of the Gospel that was
taught by these great men.