@countryvoice3Not when one liar is pathological compared to the
others. Over and over..all politicians do not tell the truth around 25% of the
time. Trump has been proven to not tell the truth 75% of the time. Come to grips
with it.What are your thoughts about Hillary lying 100% of the time?
Honesty and integrity can't be legislated. These two character traits can
only be taught by a good mom and dad in the home. Society has abandoned honesty
and integrity in every institution so arming your children to live a higher law
and take the road less traveled is the only way forward. We live in a rotted
society from TV programming to the internet to industry to sports and so on..
The internet and social media is like canoeing through a sewer anymore so arm
yourself with all sorts of filters before pushing off. The movie industry has
been a sewer for decades with about 10% of the movies made fit for viewing by
someone under 18. Colleges and universities openly teach filth at tax payer
expense. Right and wrong only exist in small pockets of some faith based
cultures anymore. We live a world in 2018 where good is evil and evil is
Re: "Conservatives need to stop this game."But apparently --
the comment seems to suggest -- liberals don't?The left has
ceaselessly lied for liars, at least since the days of FDR.Down
through the years they've lied for the likes of JFK, LBJ, and Carter. They
exploded to cover for the most accomplished and mendacious presidential team
ever -- the Clintons. Then Obama. Not in the Clintons' league, to be sure,
but in desperate need of cover for past association with radical leftists and
divisive religious figures. And, for his "mistake" in telling the truth
about the constitutional authority of a president, as law professor and
candidate, then reversing that truth when political expediency required
exceeding lawful authority.Truth is, neither side should cover for
liars. Neither side should accuse the other of lying without firm evidence.
Neither side should disingenuously suggest that only the other side is playing a
"game," swearing that their own side's only interest is protecting
one or another downtrodden "little guy."It's called
honesty. It's a mere game word in politics, but to real people, it has real
Republicans making the choice between two liars is a complete copout.They knew the day after the inauguration when Trump sent Sean Spicer out to
lie about the size of his inauguration crowd that we are in trouble.
Conservatives lied to themselves then and have not stopped to this day.When half of this country lies to themselves and lies for a liar of a
President then we are finished.Conservatives need to stop this game.
Re: "The Trump administration's defense of Russian meddling is the most
fantastic mountain of lies we have ever witnessed."It always
strains credulity when anyone suddenly works himself into a moral frenzy,
becoming outraged at supposed lying, after years of accepting and defending
constant, existential mendacity on the part of those they support.It's particularly galling when one who willingly identifies with the most
vicious and mendacious political schemes the world has ever witnessed -- marxist
regimes -- sets himself up as judge, to accuse someone of lying over issues that
are better explained by differences of opinion, misunderstanding, or mistake.The irony might be comical, if the circumstances weren't so
appallingly sad, and the scores of millions of victims so clearly innocent.
I keep reading claims that the Obama administration weaponized the FBI, CIA,
Justice Dept, IRS, EPA, and almost any agency that came into conflict with a
Democrats policy.And now trump uses the Justice Dept to go after
career civil servants, tells the FTC to go after a major newspaper, asks that
mergers of his "political enemies" be disapproved and instituted a
program to remove most career civil servants (particularly minority ones) from
their jobs. And this just to name a few.We can debate till the cows
come home about Obama. IMO, some of what he did was egregious though most
not.However, we can declare fact for anyone with open eyes and ears
what trump is doing today. Most of which is reprehensible in a democratic
society.Or is that what the GOP really wants?
I have a problem with using the ten 'commandments' or the bible as a
moral standard. Almost half (1-4) are just about worshiping the deity. The rest
are just common sense: 6) stop murdering people 7) thats my wife, 8) dont touch
my stuff, 9) stop lying. 5) Be nice to your mom and dad- Good
advice...unless you have horrible parents.10) Goes against the entire
basis of capitalism. You cannot have capitalism without coveting. Notice how 'god' failed to say anything like 'You cannot own
slaves' or 'Dont rape'. In fact if you keep reading the bible you
get to the part where god describes exactly how you ARE allowed to keep slaves,
and how if someone rapes a woman he is forced to pay her dad 50 shekels and the
woman has to marry her rapist. We are all far more moral than the
god of the bible, which makes sense because the god of the bible was written by
a tribe claiming to be 'gods chosen people' while making excuses for
why they committed genocide on their neighbors, kill them all was 'gods
orders', but keep the young females for yourselves. Read the
whole bible.All speculation removed.
I agree, mostly, with the editorial position that honesty and integrity are
important. In the political arena, however, it is sometimes perhaps necessary
to tell something less than the whole truth in the interests of national
security. Perhaps that is one of the very few and limited exceptions to
truth-telling that is not only acceptable, but vital.
@worf"Truth, justice, and the American way is disappearing. No
integrity with the media and many of our politicians. At least our president has
greater integrity."Yep, amidst its eroding moral integrity, the
U.S. electorate anomalously puts an upstanding guy in the white house. No
dissonance between those two truths.
In fairness, there's at least a good chunk of honest self-awareness by
Republicans to acknowledge they voted for a serial liar because they wanted to
steal (oh right, there's another commandment) a supreme court seat, or some
Truth, justice, and the American way is disappearing. No integrity
with the media and many of our politicians.At least our president
has greater integrity.
@howard s"My view is that Trump supporters, including me, wish
he were a more perfect candidate and President. "I stated that
exact fact in a separate thread yesterday. Your response to me then was:"Critics would be more credible if they would cite factually based
disqualifying characteristics of President Trump."Now
you're admitting that you are one of the many who wish Trump would be more
@Joe"One of the things that made me favor Trump over Hillary
(although I didn't vote for either) is the way he treats people."Please tell me you are not aware of the many law suits against him.
Please tell me you were unaware that the Clinton foundation has been highly
rated as a charitable organization giving far more than Trumps organizations.
Trump has been very wealthy for a long time. He does not have any charitable
organization that comes close to the Clinton Foundation. And before you swallow
all the right wing nonsense check Factcheck.org of Politifact.com or some other
sources to figure out the truth.
"Bill Clinton taught us that it is okay to lie'Only if you
think being impeached, and castigated at every opportunity for 30 years is your
idea of ok. "why that is Bush's fault for following bad
intelligence data." Actually that isn't true. The person responsible
for the intelligence briefing has openly said he did not say there were
wmd's. Whether Bush himself or his administration they lied about the
wmd's because they knew different. "All we can do is
choose which liar we want. So why is everybody arguing about who is the bigger
liar? It's the epitome of silliness and partisanship."Not
when one liar is pathological compared to the others. Over and over..all
politicians do not tell the truth around 25% of the time. Trump has been proven
to not tell the truth 75% of the time. Come to grips with it.
Yet another opinion piece blaming the election of Donald Trump on the American
people.I supposed in one sense we are all responsible for everything
that happens.But a more nuanced analysis suggests that Americans had
no real choice in 2016. Obama was a liar who weaponized the IRS, FBI, CIA, ATF,
BLM, EPA, etc against the American people. Hillary was all too ready to continue
that process. The DNC was all too ready to ensure her election regardless of any
principles of fairness towards Bernie Sanders.A corrupt federal
government did as much to ensure the election of Trump as anything else. If one
has to choose between liars and cheats, it is best to pick the one who is on the
outside of power. The one who can do the least damage to the country. Clearly
the American people chose correctly in this case.
"integrity must not fade from society"When the religious
right gives trump a pass and when we read that 65 percent of LDS members approve
of Donald Trump we know that train has left the station. We have
picked our favorite team and we are going to stick to it.so so Sad.
"Does that excuse Republicans for accepting imperfection in Donald Trump? Of
course not. My view is that Trump supporters, including me, wish he were a more
perfect candidate and President." -HowardThe use of
"perfect" in this context is really fascinating. I say this neither as a
republican nor democrat, of the opinion that Hillary and Donald are equally vile
in their own ways. Party members opposite the speaker's
political identity (in this case Democrats) are liars, while the speaker's
own party members are "imperfect". And the usage only increases with the
amount of repulsive behavior, as if there's an inverse correlation between
the two:The more vile actions are committed, the more the word
imperfect is resorted to, reinforcing the notion of some kind of extant
perfection instead of drawing attention to the unsavory behavior.Again, I say this neutrally. I saw democrats do the same thing when Obama and
Clinton were in office, respectively. I just think it's one of the more
fascinating unconscious ways that people double-down in the world of identity
I would love to have been able to vote for an honest person for president. But
both of the majority candidates, and most if not all of the candidates in the
primaries, were anything but honest. In my view, we ended up with the most
dishonest candidates on the national ballot in my memory, and I can remember
Nixon winning his second election.It came down to what the
candidates were lying about, and other questionable activities in their past.
Trump has the personal morality of an alley cat. Clinton already had proven
that she could and would lie to the public about her government service and
information she received that the public should know about. She also professed
to be the champion of women, but threatened those women who are known to have
been assaulted by her husband.
joe5 says:"The story of Rahab (Old Testament) may be instructive
here. The Lord found a use for a harlot; can we not find utility from a
liar?"-- A liar, cheat, fraud, adulterer, fornicator, fool, etc.
Sure, this is the type of man your "god" will find a use for.
Fabulous Jen: So tell us that Trump's flaws have translated into policy
decisions that are ruining our country more than other presidents in the last 64
years (I picked that number because it is the span of my lifetime).Believe me, each of our presidents from Eisenhower to Trump have had a mixed
bag of successes and failures. Some of those have had a significant and, at
times, catastrophic impact on our society or segments of our society.Example: In 1961, black families had a higher percentage of two-parent
households than white families in the US. After spending the 1950s trying to
keep blacks segregated and humiliated, Democrats changed tactics in the 1960s,
They passed civil rights legislation specifically designed to undermine black
families and make them slaves of the state. They opted against civil rights
legislation that gave equality while retaining the dignity of the black family.
Like 1800s plantation owners, they decided to play the role of the benevolent
overseer who knows what is best for the black hireling instead of giving them
real freedom. Where is the black family today? Our entire society continues to
reel from the utter disaster of Kennedy/Johnson policy.
I voted for Clinton and was completely aghast when the Lewinsky scandal
broke.Dennis Rodman is a troubled character but I believe he
possesses some character.Trump, on the other hand, has character
that puts us at tremendous risk. He has aligned himself with people whose only
life objective is to lick his boots.
To "65TossPowerTrap" but Bush didn't lie. He based his decisions
on intelligence collected while Clinton was in office. So, if Clinton's
administration was truthful, then Bush's decision was based on the truth.
If Clinton's administration lied, then explain why that is Bush's
fault for following bad intelligence data.To "unrepentant
progressive" you do realize that Obama was also factually challenged. The
lies and cover ups during his time in office should be of more concern than the
current ones.To "TMR" tell us again how Clinton knows how to
act like a president. Is that while he is asking for sexual favors from
interns, or is it when he fakes emotions in front of cameras, or is it when he
lets his wife destroy the lives of any woman who has accused Bill of
"Honesty and integrity must not fade from society."I agree,
but it is gone. Donald Trump has changed our society permanently. The old
assumptions about how things are, or what is truth, is gone. For a large
portion of America truth is what President Trump says, pure and simple.Moreover, there is no going back. We have become some sort of Latin American
dictatorship, maybe like Argentina during its troubles in the 80's where a
large fascist influence was and is evident. The things we knew and counted on
are gone for good.This does create an opening for socialists like
myself to make some changes, but right now the political right wing -
Trump's version - seems unstoppable.
Politicians lie. It's what they do. Is there any Democrat who is willing to
claim that Hillary didn't tell any lies during the campaign and since? Is
there any third party voter willing to claim that McMullin or any of the other
candidates did not tell any lies? All we can do is choose which liar we want. So
why is everybody arguing about who is the bigger liar? It's the epitome of
silliness and partisanship.The story of Rahab (Old Testament) may be
instructive here. The Lord found a use for a harlot; can we not find utility
from a liar?I voted but not for Trump or Hillary. I chose a
different liar to vote for. Trump has been a mixed bag. I've liked some
things he's done and I've hated others. But I am SO glad he won the
election rather than Hillary. My feeling is that she is not only a liar but
absolutely corrupt and drunk on power. As much as I hate the admitted, gloating
liar Harry Reid, I would have even voted for him over Hillary. I would have even
voted for the inept Nancy Pelosi over Hillary. Hillary was disaster waiting to
happen.So, while this editorialist and most of the people posting on
here feel good choosing your own liar, let me also vote for mine.
Bill Clinton taught us that it is okay to lie
We as a nation, and yes the world too, needs as much honesty and integrity as
possible. Today both are in short supply. What I don't understand is how
often the Deseret News denies comments because they are directed at politicians.
I am not talking about nasty troll comments about Hillary or Donald, but
comments that question the motives of the local politicians who supported and
pushed for the prison move. Or about our congressional reps and their comments
/ votes / bills when they are patently bad or designed to help the 1%. How can
change happen when honest questions and comments are sensored?
Honesty, integrity and good manners will never go out of fashion, difficult as
they are to find these days. I am reminded of the words when a man has been
given some authority, it often turns into unrighteous dominion.
The ten commandments are inspired but when the majority of Americans do not
believe in integrity to the letter of the law (honesty can be subjective) - then
the choices for perfection in leadership are nonexistent. You can say "only
vote for those with integrity" but that means in these times you don't
have a choice when applying strict Christian values. In fact there have been
very few or no human beings with acceptable integrity serving as American
presidents. Thus the opinion on only voting for those with integrity is flawed.
The opinion should be: Vote for the best choice possible because your vote still
matters. If you will only choose someone who strictly lives the ten commandments
and passes a temple recommend interview then your vote is no vote and our
country will continue downward. But our votes do matter on subjects like
abortion, American's safety, increasing jobs and the stability of our
economy, and appointing judges who are fair and who value religious freedom. A
vote for a political candidate is not about judging their personal flaws in a
christian or mormon way. God will continue to and historically has changed the
world through even extremely flawed people.
"Rodman was the renegade basketball player who was an integral part of the
Detroit Pistons’ “Bad Boys” era."=========And, it should be remembered, was they guy who was so chummy with the N.
Korean dictatorship that he made several trips to the country to hang out with
his fans among the elites.The moral relativistic rot that esteems
people like Rodman because of his defensive prowess in NBA basketball while
ignoring or even glorifying his incredibly poor judgment in virtually every
other aspect of life, is the same that ignores the ethical emptiness of Trump,
both Clintons, the Kardashians, most of the "Hollywood" types, and all
other similar examples of the elevation of form over substance.None
of it could exist were it not for support from the masses of people eager to buy
the products, political policies, and/or smarmy marketing persuasions so
generously slathered on them by the willing media outlets, now available 24/7
over the Internet via cell phones, etc.In short, it is WE, the
fawning consumers of all the slop who are the ultimate enablers of the social
swamp we have created. We are both the product and producers of our
environment. The change starts with us.
Character matters. Clinton should have been impeached by the Senate and Trump
should never had been elected. Decorum also matters. While Clinton had his moral
failings, he at least knew how to act like a president. Trump, on the other
hand, does not care enough even to act presidential. Our presidents have long
had moral shortcomings - from being slave owners to bring adulterators (even
while in office) to lying - but there has generally been a commitment to an
ideal, a vision that moved us as a country. Now, there is no ideal, except to be
the biggest and best whatever. So, yes, the moral hypocrisy of both sides is
troubling, but I submit there is something afoot that is even worse - we have a
president that telegraphs (or tweets, rather) to the world that we have no moral
edge in the first place.
How curious it is to see so-called conservatives defend trump. Clinton, either one, nor Obama are President. trump is president. This is
the man who leads the country now. Only his veracity is now the subject of
public debate.However, trump partisans want to distract us from mr.
trump's obvious lack of familiarity with objective fact.How
Why does the Deseret News bother to write such articles about honesty and
integrity and their recent article about Republicans and lying ? I don't
think that as long as you are on the receiving line from these dishonest and
lying politicians that you even care. I believe that these articles are nothing
but pulp fiction written as a self serving need to look honest.
The spirit of this piece is accurate, but it's hard to swallow the
"Bill Clinton" pill again. "...many liberal
women’s groups were willing to look past Bill Clinton’s behavior
toward women in the 1990s because he supported their position regarding
abortion."Clinton isn't a Trump card to be played whenever
the GOP stumbles. He cheated on his wife and lied about it under oath, for which
he was (rightfully) impeached.The difference between Clinton and
Trump is still stark. Where were Bill Clinton's adoring blue
hat wearing fan group during his scandal? Which self-proclaimed arbiters of what
is moral did mental gymnastics defending him? My whole life
I've been told that the GOP is the party of morality. My own ethics have
been called into question just for voting D. Now, those very same people are
calling me a "snowflake" for having serious concerns about Trump. So
which is it? Does morality actually matter or is its importance weighed against
how much political expediency could be achieved? When I'm
asked, "what's the big deal?" I answer, "ask yourself in
Kind of a neat little trick you pulled off her DN. You write an entire article
about lying, castigating Democrats for supporting a liar without ever admitting
to the pathological level of lying coming from this President. You've foisted "a" liar against the idea of a liar. Time to step up and stop the false equivalency and compare the Bill Clinton
lie to the massive avalanche of lies told by this President. In addition
we're yet to see if Mr. Trump will lie under oath..he certainly will get
Here's a quaint little rhyme that we haven't heard in awhile:
"Nobody died when Clinton lied." Can Republicans say the same thing
about George W. Bush and the Iraq War?
Surveying the scene today, I question how a person can -- with integrity --
belong to either of the major parties. Partisanship and integrity are polar
opposites.Recall: it was Donald Trump vs. Hillary Clinton. Great
It seems moral relativism lurks in the media as well as the electorate.Republicans are singled out as hypocrites early in this piece:"The
Deseret News survey of more than 1,000 Americans showed that 55 percent of
Republicans would be willing to vote for a presidential candidate who
“lied to cover up the truth.” So, how many Democrats
would be willing to vote for Mrs. Clinton who also certainly "lied to cover
up the truth"? Honesty would include this figure rather than omitting it,
leaving the impression that Democrats are more virtuous.Our
political process eliminated many candidates who are not nearly as ethically
challenged as either Trump or Clinton, and frankly neither of the finalists was
a moral choice, so voters selected the less evil of the two. Honesty and integrity in politics is a scarce virtue, and given the slimy
tactics of personal destruction so there is no inventive for virtuous people to
subject themselves to such abuse.How about setting our sights a bit
lower and advocating for honesty and integrity in the news media instead of one
sided hyperbole and hypocrisy?
I thought we determined definitively in 1992 that the majority of Americans no
longer care if their president is honest or moral. Is the author only noticing
this now, more than 25 years later?
The Trump administration's defense of Russian meddling is the most
fantastic mountain of lies we have ever witnessed. Watergate pales.
The fact is that from the days of Bill’s escapades in the Oval Office, to
Obama lying about keeping your Dr. and families saving money under under his
healthcare plan, to Hillary lying about missing emails Democrats have long
accepted flawed candidates.Does that excuse Republicans for
accepting imperfection in Donald Trump? Of course not. My view is that Trump
supporters, including me, wish he were a more perfect candidate and President.
But... in the view of this voter, even with his flaws, Trump is
miles, and miles, and miles better for this country than the candidate offered
by the Democratic Party.The reality is there were two realistic
candidates offered in the last Presidential election. Both were flawed. I wish
there had been a more perfect candidate offered... but there was not. And I did
not have to tie myself in a Gordian knot to choose which was the best (not
perfect) candidate to support.Democrats, long known for their
support of flawed candidates, would love nothing more than to successfully shame
Republicans into refusing to support flawed candidates... because if successful
in their shaming... Democratic candidates would always win by default.
It already has I I do not believe it will ever be recovered. Let's look at
Utah for an example. Kaysville put on a ballot to build a new police station. It
was voted down. The City Council stated the people of Kaysville want this and
built it anyways. They then raised taxes a large amount to pay for it. Meanwhile
the City was using money form their electric Utility to pay for the city. They
had their hand slapped hard and had to stop the practice. The State
Legislature chose to move the prison against the will of the people. They we
told it was going to be costly. Using Hughes own words he stated he knew Utah
could build it for less. Now the cost it running wild and that is before the
bids have come in. The Legislatures excuse is we were not told it would be so
costly. To top it all off those in the Legislature pushing this are involved in
real estate. They can sit on the floor of the Legislature and announce by law
they do not have a conflict of interest; yet as we have see Neiderhauser's
sub division by the prison has already made money off the prison move
announcement. So while we do not want honesty and integrity to
fade. It has.
I wish the Deseret News’ commitment to honesty extended to the decisions
it makes about what Op-Ed pieces it runs. You folks regularly publish articles
by PR firms attempting to mislead the public on important issues, when even a
casual fact-checking of the claims made in these pieces would reveal their
The 10 commandments seem to be among their lesser ommissions. "For some
reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes (Matthew
5). But, oftenwith tears in their eyes, the demand that the Ten
Commandments be posted in public buildings." Kurt Vonnegut
Honesty and integrity have been around long before the 10 commandments came into
being. The 10 are just another iteration of what was already known (except for
the god-related ones).It is true that the "Moral Majority"
no longer have any claim to morality though.
Thank you DN for publishing an opinion that tells it as it is. Now, will the
opinion editors take up the mantle of showing its readers when politicians and
other leaders mislead us?That is the true central question here.
You have excoriated "liberal women" for failing to chase Bill Clinton
from office. Have you done similarly so for "conservative women" who
support the president? Will the DN follow up on every hyperbolic
nonsense and lie that the president sends out to the public and remind readers
that this man is incapable of truth? Will the DN do so similarly for its
favored elected leaders to both federal and state positions of authority? It is
not just the president.Or is the DN just giving the GOP supporters a
pass on their vote of confidence in the president by employing the "but
Clinton!" defense? If so, just be honest (as your editorial begs us to be)
about it. At least Limbaugh, Fox, Sinclair News & Breitbart are unashamed
and unabashed in their propagation of presidential dishonesty.