I don't think any Bishop ever relished having these sorts of conversations
with their youth. And I would agree, there is an age-appropriateness that
needs to be considered, as well as the depth of the questioning. That given,
who is out there to speak plainly to the kids? Certainly not the school system;
they were handcuffed some time ago. The parents, yes, but they will likely want
the additional help. Who is this child going to go to if he or she
has an issue and doesn't want the parents to know? What if the issue is
with the parent? Who is going to give them the lay of the land;
what is likely to happen if they continue on this course, and who will do it
confidentially? Certainly, we all can do better in counseling our
children. However, if we are asking that clergy take discussing the
subject of immoral sexuality and its consequences completely off the table, then
I think we need to stop crying about all the tragedies that come from such
behavior, because there is going to be a lot more of them.
@Impartial7 "@Counter Intelligence;"II would be curious to
know how many protesters are like Impartial7, not members but opportunists who
love any opportunity to criticise"I just asked a question, which
you deflected. How many prophets have you had that didn't
prophecise?"I didn't deflect your question, I ignored it,
since the fact that the LDS Church has not changed position regarding female
priests and gay marriage is fairly indicative that protests do not drive church
policy as you claim. Furthermore, I personally do not have a prophet because i
do not belong to any faith, but I also do not know any Mormons who expect a
formal prophecy every six months either. They indicate to me that they believe
that it occurs on an as-needed basis (and is nice but not inherently necessary
for individual management decisions).Although I should let them defend
their own faith - As a non-LDS person, my motive is merely to clarify that all
non-LDS do not buy into the "anti" garbage routinely espoused here
I have a question? If truth is truth, why would the truth need to be
The percent of bishops who have ever done inappropriate things to youth is most
likely in the single digits however we live in a world where immoral temptations
have exploded everywhere. The internet will confirm that with a mouse click on
the wrong link. Men are not perfect and a few bishops stray -- we have even seen
that in Utah recently. From a child and parents perspective I think having
additional safety measures is needed....sadly... and the Church already
addressed this issue.
my big issue with the protesters getting their way (which they won't, but
I'm being hypothetical so bear with me) would be: when I was a missionary
in Tucson, El Paso and Safford, Ariz., I had lots of companions that
weren't necessarily nice to me. They were also being disobedient and
refused to proselyte properly (halfway through my mission, Elder Ballard gave
the "raising the bar" talk, so this is the old school Wild Wild West
days, literally and figuratively :). When you're talking to your mission
president during zone conference at the stake center nearest your area, that
NEEDS to be private. You need to trust that the Melchizedek Priesthood authority
in question is going to do the right thing. We come to the temporal world
primarily to "see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God
shall command them." (Abraham, 3:25). I realize this makes people
uncomfortable, but we have to trust that the Lord knows what He's doing.
OK, rant over!
I served briefly on a bishopric and always ran into difficulties with youth
interviews because most of the youth had absolutely no idea what the Law of
Chastity entailed. This always meant having to go into a brief explanation of
the law, but I never felt compelled to go into detail.
@Contemplator "Imagine for a moment that a school teacher would
ask your child about it's sexual practices. I am sure that at the end of
the process the school teacher would be fired - rightfully so because it is
child abuse.What makes it OK for the same thing to happen within a
church setting?"This is an easy question to answer. I would
expect a teacher to ask my children about the subject they teach, whether it be
math, English or science. I would want them to be specific and thorough so as
to make sure my child understood the concepts and could apply them in life.I expect when my child meets with a Bishop who has been ordained and
called by God through inspiration by one having authority, and called to be a
judge in Israel, that he would be sufficiently thorough and loving and
compassionate to make sure my child understood the concepts and could apply them
in life.No, Contemplator, this is not abuse. It is God's will
and God's way to be accountable. And, if you have sinned, have it
addressed in the proper way so as to activate the atonement of our Savior to be
forgiven. I would not want anything less for the child I love more than
anything in this whole world.
The 3000 stories, are unfortunately, just that--unverified stories. We are
supposed to trust them for their veracity.Some apparently do not
understand the consequences of violating the law of chastity. The church action
(consequence) that is taken for violation of various acts are different,
therefore the need to ask for specifics if there was a violation. In other
words, if the answer is "no" to "Do you live the law of
chastity?", the bishop needs to determine to what extent it was violated.Protesters, marches, rallies against the church turn me off, regardless
of their cause. It shows a confrontational spirit. Most times, if not every
time, it also is a manifestation of emotions rather than rationale. I believe
that there are other ways to get the Brethren's attention and engage in a
Re: ". . . licensed therapists . . . said a professionally trained counselor
is in a significantly better position to talk to a child about sex."One could fill many more books with the stories of abuses by licensed
therapists, than with stories about rogue bishops.Those that seek to
counsel the Lord on this issue appear to have an agenda completely divorced from
the welfare of God's children -- it seems more calculated to assure the
continuation of sexual sin.One wonders why they're so committed
@blutoThank you for your response... I had assumed you were LDS
based on your defense of BYU... But if I am wrong these citations may not make
sense to you.Suggestions:Read "Enrichment I" in
the Student's Syllabus on the Doctrine and Covenants, focus on sections 68;
102; 107 and 13. If the seriousness of the sin is significant enough then
confession to a Bishop (who represents the Lord as a Judge in Israel) is
necessary for Remission of the sin, for determining worthiness, and for
determining proper Penitence... The God's Appointed however, is required to
keep the details of the confession confidential or else he pays a heavy price
when facing the Lord's judgment.The BOM also deals with the
topic in Mosiah 26 and in Ether.Boyd K Packard (former Pres of the
12 Apostles) stated:“Jesus Christ has prescribed a very clear
method for us to repent and find healing in our lives. The cure for most
mistakes can be found by seeking forgiveness through personal prayer. However,
there are certain spiritual illnesses, particularly those dealing with
violations of the moral law, which absolutely require the assistance and
treatment of a qualified spiritual physician. (the Bishop).
@ poyman - Lincoln City, ORyou wrote: "I usually
support your comments ... But you're wrong on this one... The need for
confession is in the scriptures and often discussed by Prophets and Apostles.Yes, Confession is indeed discussed by the Apostles.1 John
1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins,
and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.James 5:16 - Confess
[your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed.
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.But
where does it specify that one must confess to a Priest, who, speaking for/as
God, can "absolve" you of your sins? This is the very
Catholic... "Sacrament of Penance". A priest is "In persona
Christi", because he acts as Jesus and as God.Thus....A
Catholic Construct.Most scriptures pertaining to confession refer to
Confessing that Jesus is the Christ.Many Protestant religions as
well as Islam and Judaism, believe no intermediary is necessarywhen
petitioning God for forgiveness. An Anglican aphorism regarding the
practice of confession is "All may; none must; some should".And so it goes...
So, now even the LDS church has protesters? Unbelievable..
In the context of how I see the Church, the position of this former bishop,
those protesting and some commenting really leaves me puzzled. How does a former
bishop think that it's a good idea to protest against the church leaders
and tell them what they are getting wrong? When did he forget who called them?
How do people feel entitled to dictate what the leaders of the Church, millions
sustain as prophets of God, should do?
Plporter,So it appears that we disagree with each other. Again, I'm comfortable with the current system, and support the update.
So your disagreement is noted, and it didn't sway my
opinion.Because you don't agree with the current system does
not mean that it does not work for me.While the system can be
improved, I appreciate the value of the system as it is and I really appreciate
the changes to it as well. So thanks for your concern, but I'm
good as is.
Some great comments here. My perspective is one of grooming the child for
possible abuse in the future. No doubt 99% of Bishops are very safe with
children, but out of 30,000 wards and branches in the Church that still leaves
1% or 300 Bishops or Branch Presidents that may or may not be as circumspect as
one would expect. Child abusers purposely choose those children
that are already marginalized, have low self esteem and do not have strong
parental examples in the home, etc. Some youth are not equipped to make a
choice about having a third individual in the interview room, those are the
youth that are most susceptible to an abuser's approach and need to be
protected. If a child believes that it is a normal procedure for an older man
in a Church position who speaks for God to ask personal sexual questions alone
in a closed room, then that child becomes more groomed for a future bad actor
that could happen as local Priesthood leadership is changed out or the youth
moves into a new ward or branch. Most skeptics on this board
probably have strong family structures and have never experienced sexual abuse
in their family. I Pray your family never has that experience.
A couple of posters look pretty foolish now. Revelation galore!
@bluto"...The whole contemporary concept of confession, after
all, is a Catholic construct."**************I
usually support your comments ... But you're wrong on this one... The need
for confession is in the scriptures and often discussed by Prophets and
london_josh said: ' "no minor should ever face a sexual
question" is a viewpoint that I consider myopic and might do more damage
than it helps because it's all mitigated if the minors don't have
anything to confess ... 'Hummmm, the number of teenage boys
that have not masturbated, since their last worthiness interviewer a year ago?
I would say that it is pretty myopic to think that worthiness
questions would only apply to a small number of immoral teenagers.... You might want to rethink your position, london_josh.
Maybe the only questioned asked should be is there anything in your past or
present conduct that would keep you from feeling worthy to serve a mission or
receive a particular calling. It occurs to me that a person could go thru the
process of repentance without being asked to confess a particular sin. Of course
they should declare that they have or have not broken any laws that would affect
worthiness and if they are still in the process of paying any debts to society.
Young people should be advised that they can have someone present and be
given the choice as to who it will be.
Hi Ben, this might help you get a better crowd estimate next time your editor
creates a misleading headline for your story. From the ijnet
International Journalists' network. (ijnet.org) "How
reporters can estimate the number of people in a crowd"https://tinyurl.com/y7abnfbmI was there and saw Church employees
taking cell phone photos of the crowd from several stories up in the tower. You should have sent a photographer up there to also get a better head
count. (former BYU Journalism graduate)
@Contemplator - Salt Lake City, UTYou made this confusing comment:
"Imagine for a moment that you found out that a school teacher would ask
your child about it's sexual practices. I am sure that at the end of the
process the school teacher would be fired - rightfully so because it is child
abuse. What makes it OK for the same thing to happen within a church
setting"?Friend. Not sure how well acquainted with religion you
are? May I just say that there is a huge difference between the background and
spiritual preparation a Church leader has compared to the role of a school
teacher. For centuries, spiritual leaders have in part functioned to help
members of their flocks navigate through some of life's difficulties with
mostly positive success. It is kind of like going to a therapist for guidance
and counseling if one has a psychological issue to deal with. You wouldn't
send your child to a school teacher for psychological advise would you? Most
religions have a place and person to go to regarding repentance, spiritual
counseling and such.
Any former Bishop and any other member of the LDS Church that would deny the
Bishop, who is the Common Judge in Israel, the ability to discuss sexual
worthiness with potential missionaries and those seeking Temple Recommends
should quickly repent of their apostasy. This is the LORD'S church.
Church leaders are called of God. Lucifer is very good at convincing our youth
that certain seriously sinful conduct is just fine. Masterbation is an abuse of
the procreative power and every active member of this church should understand
that. Some kids think that sexual touching over clothing is okay. It is not.
Some kids think you can do anything sexual as long as you do not have
intercourse. Not true. We should have NO sexual relations with anyone we are
not married to. Church leaders need to clearly teach our youth what is right
and wrong as we live in a very wicked world filled with evil teachings. Members
of the church who think some person with some secular degree granted by a
university run by godless atheists, would be more qualified than the common
judge in Israel who is called by God has some serious testimony issues.
I guess that I was surprised to hear that there were some concerns regarding
this issue.Several years ago I served in a bishopric and conducted
many interviews with our youth. I did so with the understanding that I was to
just ask the questions as stated in the Interview Book. When I asked that
question, I simply asked - do you live the law of chastity? I didn't ask
for details, I didn't ask for examples, I just stated the question as
written. If there was ever a No answer, then my part concluded and the
individual was invited to meet with the bishop.I always felt that it
was up to each individual member to answer this and every question as they felt
to do so without prompting or further clarification from me.
99.9% of all worthy church members who have no ax to grind or who make their
living trying to damage the Church. Have no problem with having The Bishops ask
questions about, are you living the law of chastity and such, sometimes the
child is being abused at home. The young person certainly would not reveal that
with the parent.I am sure that many “so called members” who
are complaining about this, but I have never met anyone in church who has ever
indicated anything like this to me.It is the same about LGBT. you hear
about how we talk about them. WE DON’T. Within active members. All is
good. Except the exceptional pervert church leader, and they need to go.
As a youth in the church I had great appreciation for the bishops interview and
involvement in the repentance processes, however it has been so difficult to see
the huge negative affects our very well intended Bishop has had on our teenage
cgildren when they have gone to him in similar situations.
People are too easily offended.
Suggestions for introspection, examination, and improvement are rarely bad
things . . . although they may be disquieting to some. There will always be
those who claim that any disagreement from any source is the result of
someone's personal weakness, sin, and our apostasy, and not to be taken
seriously by those who are duly obedient, compliant, and conforming. I have
lived long enough to know that regardless of a person's ecclesiastical
callings or responsibilities, we are all still mortals, and still subject to
error and missteps, depending on our own personal weaknesses, understandings,
and experiences. Many would probably call my position on some of these things
heresy or blasphemy, but I strongly believe that as long as I'm the one
paying the freight, so to speak, for my activities and decisions--I'll be
the one making the crucial decisions relative to the management of my life. I
really don't see the need for other mortals to pass judgment on what
I'm doing, regardless of their perceived positions or roles.
Imagine for a moment that you found out that a school teacher would ask your
child about it's sexual practices. I am sure that at the end of the process
the school teacher would be fired - rightfully so because it is child abuse.What makes it OK for the same thing to happen within a church setting?
Perhaps a better alternative would be to provide outside proffesional sex
education to help the youth with their growing and maturity.
As members of the LDS Church, I don't we should simply turn a blind eye to
this issue and automatically dismiss Bishop Young's cause. I read a few of
the stories on the Protect LDS Children website and was almost brought to tears.
The efforts of this group have already prompted the brethren to make
a policy change a few days ago and I'm hopeful that they'll continue
to evaluate and do what's best for our children.
I am glad that I was taught at home and it was not left to outsiders. The
Bishops I had never surprised me or embarrassed me because my dad was watching
and talking to me at home in ways a Bishop could not. I knew stuff and it had
been taught with love which gave me admiration for whom I was to become.
Parents have given their rights as parents to outsiders and I don't mean
just the Bishop. It may happen out of frustration and that is not what I am
talking about here nor is it trying to teach above the level of understanding
that the child might have. It is all about helping the Bishop or other youth
leader to get the child through this difficult age and difficult time.
Out of the Q70 and the 15 they sent out two interns with a PR statement instead?
Their lack of empathy and compassion speaks volumes.
When I was young, 13 or so, I had a interview with my bishop who I admired but
He asked me a couple of the questions regarding sexuality that left me feeling
embarrassed and uncomfortable . Never did I attend another bishop interview.
In reply to Yuge Opportunity Here: You struck a chord with me. I am a
grandmother. Two weeks ago I decided to be baptized for three deceased ancestors
(yes this granny went into the water). It was a wonderful experience. I was
assisted by teenage girls obtaining my white clothing and then I was baptized by
a priest. I think Yuge Opportunity Here is onto something when he
said the youth are being targeted by forces of evil. What I saw and felt with my
experience in the Temple Baptistry was a glorious event. I think our Father In
Heaven is casting the net wider to offer the opportunity for more people to
participate in covenants and ordinances and service . And I think these
protesters are being subtlely led into error. Youth and adults almost always
have an uplifting experience with their priesthood leaders. The new policies are
there to make sure this happens.
I agree with this effort. The only questions about sex to youth should be
"do you live the law of chastity". And, "are you worthy to enter
the temple". Youth know if they are or aren't. If they lie, that is on
them, not the bishop. It's very simple to instruct the YW, YM
on a regular basis what the law of chastity is. In detail. 2-3 times per year.
You can have youth leaders or the bishop or RS pres come in answer anonymous
questions about it. We have done this in our ward.
The message of these protesters seems to be: If I had a bad experience, I want
you to have no experience at all.
Somewhere along the line I realized that I didn't need a middleman to
moderate my relationship with the Almighty. I highly recommend it.
Mountains out of mole hills people. Easy solution. Bishop asks the youth,
"We can talk individually, or you can have a parent or other adult sit in
with you. Which would you like to do"? It's the child given the
choice for him/her to decide.Not all youth want an adult sitting in
with them, contrary to what the protestors' way of thinking with their self
centered points of view. Some youth may actually NOT want their parents
learning of the things they may confess to. Confession, is after all, a very
person thing.Allowing for the bishop to ask the question above
allows for privacay and for a support person, AND gives that choice to the
It enhancesThe LDS Church oprerations to have member direct involvement in
church policies and management that moderate and strengthen their top down
dictates and mandates.
Thank you Bluto - Sandy, UTI have read Deseret News
comments for five years. Your comment was my favorite of all time.
Th se folks might want to join another church that doesn’t do this or
start their own. There are even some now that don’t believe in hell.
Sounds good to me.
To those here that advocate having your neighborhood dentist, accountant or
local business owner asking minor children about sexual issues, there's a
word for you. Complicit.
Isn't it amazing how many people want to be able to govern the Church? And
most of them are ones that have an issue somewhere in their lifetime where they
were "offended." There's a scripture about being offended, stating
that they are blessed "whoever shall not be offended in me" in both Luke
7 and Matthew 11. Maybe the questions are awkward as asked by a bishop that
isn't a social worker by profession, but get over it. He needs to
ascertain worthiness. I once thought a bishop who interviewed me had a great
idea when he asked if I kept the law of chastity, and when I said I did, he
asked "What is that law according to your understanding?" and let me
define it. He was satisfied with my definition.Why are all these
young children present for this "demonstration?" It appears that
children are being used as pawns to add leverage to an adult's agenda,
which is less than impressive to me. It smacks of "policy decisions should
be decided by popular vote and by shaming." Who do you think inspires such
behavior, particularly when taken in context of the scriptures I cited? I
assure you, it isn't the Lord for "contention is not of me (Him)."
Protesting on the steps of the Church Office Building? This is nothing new. It
even happened before the dawn of time. A third of our brothers and sisters
protested the plan that our Heavenly Father himself presented that would give
them a body as well as their agency, i.e. the ability to protest... and they
went away mad. The pattern continues--- protest something that comes
from God's prophet.
When my Father was a Bishop many years ago (1960's/1970's) he always
made an effort to interview children in their own homes in the living room. Mom
or Dad weren't sitting right by their children as the interview was taking
place but were usually in a nearby room (like the kitchen) and could hear
everything that was said. He did it this way not because he was directed by the
church to do so but because he felt more comfortable doing the interviews this
way. And he felt the parents were more comfortable with it too.So
is this a possibility church wide?Also, if a child is asked if he
obeys the Law of Chastity and the response is, What's the law of Chastity?,
what then is a Bishop supposed to do?
@Counter Intelligence; "II would be curious to know how many
protesters are like Impartial7, not members but opportunists who love any
opportunity to criticise" I just asked a question, which you
deflected. How many prophets have you had that didn't prophecise?
As the youth of the Church increasingly engage in redeeming the dead, note the
protests from Satan. He knows that he is the bug loser if the youth are in the
temple as saviors on Mt. Zion.To be sure, youth have been
occasionally abused by adults in the Church. That is Satan's work.But so is casting a pall on the very program of interviewing youth and
providing them with recommends. If Satan can destroy confidence in the
Bishopric, he strikes at the heart of youth temple work.
Parents need to wake up and be parents to their own children and stop passing
the buck to the church. Think about it. Who in their right mind would send their
own child to sit down and discuss sex with a used car dealer or any others of
the lay ministry of bishops? Get with it folks, those priesthood leaders are not
educated, trained, certified or qualified to have those kind of conversations
with children. In cases where a parent is dealing with an abused child of their
own, call the police, get a trained and licensed therapist to help and keep the
church out of it. There are no church miranda rights and repentance isn't
necessarily forgiven and forgotten. Anything that child victim says can be used
against her or him much later in life, as we now know in the case of the victim
of Joseph Bishop. The subject of sex in discussions with children needs to be
stopped from occurring the behind the closed doors of priesthood leaders
Parents need to teach their children at an early age how recognize and avoid a
bad situation, long before the Church interview process takes place.And don't venerate Church leaders either, they're just human and if
you recognize them being inappropriate, call them out on it or report it. If one
person does not believe you then go to another.As my Dad used to
say, it's perfectly ok to tell someone, even Church leaders, that it's
"None of your Business".I wonder if we won't see
a day in the LDS Church, when confession of ones sins to a Church leader becomes
instead, a personal exercise between just you and your maker, as is the case
now in Judaism, Islam and many Protestant faiths..The whole
contemporary concept of confession, after all, is a Catholic construct.
See the pattern here folks?It's Saul Alinsky's Rules for
Radicals."Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and
polarize it."Every Conference it's another issue.-City Creek Mall-Women and the Priesthood.-Women wearing pants.-Member resignations.-Gay marriage.-God's Commandment of
Chastity-The Church's policy for children of gay parents.and on
and on.....This April Conference selected feature....-Bishop's interviews.We are now taking bets on October's
Conference "Whine-Athon"...Just pick up a contest form from
any "High Anxiety is Us" outlet, correctly guess the next Concocted
Controversy for October Conference and win a prize, (forms must be submitted by
Sept. 1, 2018).Winners receive a Yoga Mat, MyPillow, set of comfort
stones, lifetime supply of Snicker bars and a puppy..
This situation reminds me of the old joke..."why do you take 2 Mormons
fishing and not just one."It's pretty bad when the people
need to have one person watching the bishop to make sure there isn't
anything amiss in their meeting with someone.
If bishops have noticed that many peple do not understand the meaning of the law
of chastity, perhaps it is because it is too vague or too poorly taught. If
everyone knew and understood the law, it should be enough to ask if one is
living it. In the end it is between the individual and the lord.Bishops
are human and a bad bishop can drive a wedge between the young person and the
church that might never be healed.
You have to keep in mind folks that we are dealing with the extra sensitive
i read a lot of the stories on the protect children site - some are legitimate -
some are strange - i think you get some women and men who were abused as
children and or who whose parents werent open about sex and they were asked
questions and they took it the wrong way - you also had questions from bishops
that were wholly inappropriate - you should just stick to the recommend
questions - i can c where/there can be bishops with there own problems or hang
ups and they go to far - a lot of the anger was over the do you masterbate
question - which isnt in the recommend question - but used to be asked a lot -
i dont think it is as much any more - so a lot of it is based on the persons own
perception - of what was going on in the interview - and that might be able to
be handled better - but to completely dismiss these people is wrong - because
there are always going to be legitimate complaints and times when we can do
Chris,You've had your stories and experiences, and I've
had mine.I don't think either of us will be cured of our
current perspective and converted to the other perspective by discussion - you
seem to be both intelligent and grounded, I assure you I am the same.Different viewpoints don't make one person right and one wrong; and there
are clearly countless imperfect experiences working with the 16,000 lay minister
bishops in the church.16,000 Bishops and they deal with these cases
on an all too frequent basis, let's say at least 15 per year. So this year
that's 2.5 million of such interviews in the last decade alone.I don't want to marginalize the 3000 stories, however as you and I have
different perspectives one thing is for sure, since they all came prior to this
rule change they all are instances of individuals saying something against the
word of a bishop who generally can't speak to defend himself anyway.Just as you and I just seem to see things differently, my guess is that
the majority of those 3000 cases also just see things differently.I
don't blame any of them, it's a hard experience to go through, I hope
they all found peace one way or another.
I prefer that the church decide how to conduct interviews and counsel youth
rather than protestors in the street.
I have told my children many times that there are only two possibilities in
regard to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Its claims are true
and it is what it says it is or it is not. If it is what it says it is then it
led by Jesus Christ and direct revelation. Those who administer in its affairs
do so with authority from God. Would I want to put a family member in the
hands of a man who has authority from the creator of the universe or
counselor/therapist who is trained only in the ways of the world. I chose to
build my house upon a rock because a foundation made of sand is bound to fail
when the rain comes tumbling down. It seems that we have more and more church
members who are happy to join those who mock from great and spacious building.
What impartial7 knows about revelation is akin to what I know about who
fabricated the gold plates.Maybe knowledge of both is non-existent.
Maybe revelation and the gold plates are real.
As with any communication, the Church has to be more specific when directing
Bishops how to act with youth. The most important direction is
not to condemn youth at all but simply counsel them. Then, when the actions
are serious (involve the act of sex) they can loving encourage them to
repent. My expectation is that most of these stories occurred many
years ago but it is still not acceptable. Getting Bishops out of the
expectation to provide marriage counseling would be a big positive step. As
for abuse victims, require bishops to report any person accused or real abuse
and refer them to professional counselors.
@london_josh: you make excellent points in your response, and I agree with
almost all of them. I would just again encourage you to read the stories on the
site in order to see the severity. I don't think the problem is akin to
Fabio novels; it actually can be much more graphic than that. I've
experienced it myself. Read the stories.
Man, some people have entirely too much time on their hands.
@london_josh "i don't disagree that they don't need to go into
graphic detail, I disagree that it's a problem to the extent you feel that
it is. "It doesn't have to be a problem to the extent
someone feels it is, it just has to be a problem in need of a solution and that
can be solved.
"And if someone has something to confess, they should be able to do so
without being made to go into graphic detail."i don't
disagree that they don't need to go into graphic detail, I disagree that
it's a problem to the extent you feel that it is. There is a difference in
finding out what happened and getting the version of what happened as it would
be contained in a book with Fabio on the cover.I've been on
both sides of that desk and in all cases once the problem is identified it
becomes about bringing healing rather than looking into sordid details.Active Mormon kids have significantly lower rates of premarital sex than other
kids - I personally find that to be a very good thing; I don't want to see
that reversed and if you do the same thing as everybody else you'll get the
same results.You can't have that good thing without rules and
enforcement. I grew up with parents and church leaders keeping watchful eyes on
me - but when I drive I speed until I see a cop.By the way when I
get pulled over for speeding they always ask "do you know how fast you were
going", likewise "what exactly happened" is a fair question in
assessing how bad an offense was and how to fix it.
@Caleb Joe and others on this post who are so quick to criticize the protesters:
have you actually read the stories on the Protect LDS Children website? The
problem is too large to simply be chalked up to 'imperfect people.'
Turning a blind eye or refusing to look at the problem head-on doesn't mean
it isn't there. And one can understand this AND believe in the sacred
calling of church leaders at the same time.
II would be curious to know how many protesters are like Impartial7, not members
but opportunists who love any opportunity to criticise
I am amazed at so many church members who do not seem to understand the core
doctrines and teachings of the church. A bishop is a judge in Israel who holds
all priesthood keys for the ward that he leads. In these interviews and during
the repentance process he uses these keys to discern the situation helping both
youths and adults to bring their lives into full harmony with the teachings of
Jesus Christ. While I hold no illusions that the men who hold these keys are
anything but imperfect human beings, I have no doubt in the source of their
authority and keys that they exercise. This gives me great comfort and allows me
to put myself, my wife, and my children in their hands as they do the
Lord's work. If they make mistakes they will be held accountable before the
greatest judge of all. With this knowledge it is hard for me to understand what
these protests are all about. It seems that those who are demanding change do
not have full faith in or knowledge of who the real leader of the church is.
Rebels without much of a cause... Policies in the church are not changed by
petitions and a former Bishop should probably know that... Time to get a life.
@IMAPatriot2: have you read the stories on Protect LDS Children website? If not,
you might gain some insight before deeming the cause "stupid." Seek to
understand their point of view before assuming yours is right.
Most bishops and state presidents are probably ok. But. since we moved to Utah I
have worked with a few over the years that had issues with sexually harassing
women at work. No one did anything about it because of their church positions.
We had some neighbors at one time who had a sex president that would ask them
how many times a week they had sex and what kind. Never understood that.
I'm sure there are also ones that have sexual issues or hangups of their
own. It seems it would be best if these young people or women had an adult of
their choice with them when they are interviewed. This could help to ensure
everyone's safety and inappropriate questions being asked.
I can think of a lot of stupid causes but this is near the top of the list.
@london_josh: the hundreds who marched today are a small fraction of the tens of
thousands who signed the online petition in support of the effort. And have you
read the hundreds of stories on the Protect LDS Children website? It's a
much bigger and more common problem than you might think. "Do
you obey the Law of Chastity?" is a good enough question for adult temple
recommend interviews; it should be for teenagers as well. And if someone has
something to confess, they should be able to do so without being made to go into
People rightfully are anxious when they are dealing with worthiness questions?
You have forgotten, that you should write down in detail the problem, or
transgression; that way the entire, often embarrassing facts are properly given
to the Judge in Israel. You have a very rationalizing group of protestors; if
too many people interview children as minors, then they answer what they believe
the person is wishing them to say? Lives are too easily ruined by such
witch-hunts? I know where I speak, as I was a prosecutor in Illinois and Wyoming
for nearly 10 years. You cannot expect Bishops, to be Psychologists, Family
Service Professionals; even well trained, even with spiritual discernment to
deal with such areas, it is a difficult task? Authorities should automatically
be included, and reported to, IF it appears there maybe improper contact, or
I think the protesters have not experienced, or do not believe, two things that
many of the rest of us in the Church know about:1) In a non 1-on-1
interview, many people (especially teens) are reluctant to confess a misdeed to
the bishop with a third person in the room. But they do need to confess,
so...1-on-1 is sometimes necessary.2) Sexually explicit questions
are also necessary, not only for confession but to check that people know what
"the law of chastity" means. Nearly every bishop has to have a hilarious
story about someone who doesn't know--and what that person thinks it means.
Used to be changes in the church were brought about by prophesy and revelation.
That hasn't happened in a long time. Now, it seems like public outcry is
the only way to get revelation to change policy.
The major changes already happened.There is no perfect system, take
the people with a grievance versus the people who say that they were guided
through a repentance process and you'll find a massive group of people, and
in my opinion vastly bigger on the side of those who are grateful for help in
repenting.I understand the allowance for other adults to be present
- do you want a full room during a confession?But then again, I have
no problem with my kids being faced with tough questions, I'm a fan of
accountability. I'm far more concerned about my daughters boyfriends than
what our bishop might ask them - because I hope he does ask.I hope
these people feel better for having participated, and I hope they recognize the
big step already taken prior to their march. Evolution of the
system based on prophetic action is a good thing, but saying that "no minor
should ever face a sexual question" is a viewpoint that I consider myopic
and might do more damage than it helps because it's all mitigated if the
minors don't have anything to confess and relaxing the accountability
probably isn't the best way to do that.Hundreds are on their
side, millions have a different opinion.
I understand the concerns, but we as Latter-day Saints are commanded to live the
law of chastity. If, during the interview, a person indicates a violation of
that commandment, it is the bishop's job to go further and inquire as to
the nature of the violation. Being mealy-mouthed or pussy-footing around
won't accomplish that. Of course, the bishop must be careful as to how he
phrases his questions, but if someone has violated that commandment, then they
need to repent.
In reference to the comment about a child not knowing to ask for an adult to be
present during an interview - I would think the leader doing the interview would
let the child know that is an option, but not mandatory. The Church
deserves credit for at least addressing the issue. Not all churches do.
It's not perfect, but it's better than just sweeping it under the rug.
I Want a Taco- Unfortunately, media attention might be the only way to get the
message across. Clearly, the recent policy change came in response to the MTC
President fiasco. Protest is rarely popular in the organization or with its
adherents. I’m sorry you had a bad experience in an interview that could
have been avoided.
I tend to agree with these folks. I though I don’t believe this is the
method they should go about making such a request. Frankly, I had a pretty
unpleasant experience that likely would have never happened if a second member
of the bishopric was in the room at the time. The consequences of that meeting
really got my life off course for many years. In the end sharing
their request in a manner so public and irreverent is not the right way to do
When children and abuse survivors speak, real men listen and believe them! Never
stop sharing your stories because you matter!