How an early LDS Church sacrament goblet was identified at RootsTech

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  • CMTM , 00
    Feb. 24, 2018 1:38 p.m.

    RE: Clifton Palmer McLendon. "I call your attention to John 18:10”.

    If described in the spirit of those who jeer at LDS history, this incident would be "Jesus was involved in a knife fight shortly before His death . When the posse came to arrest Jesus, one of His friends pulled out a big knife and cut off a posse member's ear."?

    Context, John 18: Verse 11, Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?"

    Christ could have defended himself if he wanted to, without Peter's drawing his sword; and besides, he could have had of his Father more than twelve legions of angels.

    And it was also contrary to the nature of his kingdom, which was not of this world, nor to be supported and defended in any such manner;

  • Clifton Palmer McLendon Gilmer, TX
    Feb. 24, 2018 2:40 a.m.

    @MoreMan (in re "Do martyrs need guns?"):

    I call your attention to John 18:10.

    If described in the spirit of those who jeer at LDS history, this incident would be "Jesus was involved in a knife fight shortly before His death . When the posse came to arrest Jesus, one of His friends pulled out a big knife and cut off a posse member's ear."

  • Born in Bountiful Provo, Utah
    Feb. 22, 2018 4:20 p.m.

    I am constantly amazed that simple, precious items, like a sacrament cup, can cause a whole dialogue about the history of the LDS church and whether Joseph Smith was a prophet. An interesting piece of history was identified. Thank you for the article.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Feb. 22, 2018 11:57 a.m.

    Thomas Thompson,
    " . . . . at one time, the Mormons used real wine for their sacrament; it would be interesting to know when the change was made to water (perhaps not until the administration of President Heber J. Grant?"
    ____________________
    I don’t know when the change came but that’s a good guess. Before he became Church President, Heber J. Grant fought to get state level prohibition enacted in Utah before the Volstead Act gave us national prohibition (which was repealed after only thirteen years). In the early twentieth century, the Church began striving to overcome its nineteenth century image problem of being defiant of civil authority.

    In the era of prohibition (which had roots in temperance movements across the country) the Church went one up on the national trend by internally making the Word of Wisdom a worthiness requirement for advancement in the priesthood and admittance to the temple. Before the era of issuing temple recommends, Mormons with reputations as a drunkards could be denied admission to the temple but the Church was more lenient towards members who were moderate drinkers of alcohol.

  • CMTM , 00
    Feb. 22, 2018 9:02 a.m.

    RE: NoNamesAccepted. “so what you are saying is that there is a strong likelihood he was fragged by his own people and that the prevailing narrative isn't what we have been told that it was anti-Mormon Missourians."

    Whether Mormons killed JS or not is unimportant many important Mormons wanted to by taking an oath to kill him for., many marriages. From a Newspaper article in 1894. Millennial Star Vol 46 pp 497, 498, 499, 501,and 519.

    Also, Francis M Higbee (excommunicated) was at a meeting of the Mormon dissenters on April 28.

    @The law of the church provides(Doctrine and Covenants 17:22)for the sacraments of the Lords supper in the following language: It is expedient that the church meet together often to partake of bread and wine in remembrance of the Lord Jesus….. This was edited from the current D &C

  • Thomas Thompson Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 22, 2018 8:36 a.m.

    There are (at least) two things about this sacrament cup of great interest. First, it is now apparent that at one time, the Mormons used real wine for their sacrament; it would be interesting to know when the change was made to water (perhaps not until the administration of President Heber J. Grant?). The second is the apparent fact that this was a communal cup, to be partaken of by all -- unlike the present practice of providing partakers with their own individual cup. Both of these facts have highly interesting theological implications which deserve to be further explored.

  • moresureword Maple Grove, MN
    Feb. 22, 2018 7:24 a.m.

    "Utah historian Ron Fox was involved in the research and eventual sale of the goblet. “The cup is in almost perfect condition,” said Fox. “You can see inside a little wear from its use as a sacramental cup. It most likely contained wine and was passed among members during sacrament services.”

    Early Mormons could not accept that all that was required of them was that they treat each other as they would want to be treated, They could not understand that this Royal Law, the fullness of the everlasting Gospel, that all the “law and the prophets” were based on this one principle.

    There are some who think that the prophet Joseph Smith took the sacrament, just before his martyrdom in Carthage Jail. But, as John Taylor later reported:

    “Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us. ...I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards.” (John Taylor, DHC, 7:101.)

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Feb. 21, 2018 8:27 p.m.

    @CMTM, @MoreMan, "so what you are saying is that there is a strong likelihood he was fragged by his own people and that the prevailing narrative isn't what we have been told that it was anti-Mormon Missourians."

    Those who paid attention in LDS services and seminary have always known that the anti-Mormons in Missouri, Ohio, and Illinois always included disaffected (ex) Mormons. Sometimes these apostates had been formally excommunicated or formally announced their resignation from LDS Church membership. In some cases, these apostates lacked the honesty to make their disaffection known, but stirred up problems for the Church even as they deceitfully joined with faithful members for services.

    Turns out, the more things change, the more they stay the same. In Utah, from the early days after the pioneers arrived, right down to present, we continue to have the same problem with false brethren--men lacking integrity--who claim membership and fellowship, but who go about stirring up problems with lies and discontent.

  • Frank Walters Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 21, 2018 10:52 a.m.

    Some similar goblets and even bread trays are on display in various meeting houses around the state, they're very interesting to see.

  • MoreMan San Diego, CA
    Feb. 21, 2018 10:04 a.m.

    @CMTM... so what you are saying is that there is a strong likelihood he was fragged by his own people and that the prevailing narrative isn't what we have been told that it was anti-Mormon Missourians. Sounds to me like they were more "anti-Jos.Smith" than "anti-church".

  • CMTM , 00
    Feb. 21, 2018 8:24 a.m.

    RE: Third try screen name. Yes, they DID have a pistol in Carthage Jail. I'm not sure why that should be a surprise to anyone. To me, it was an indication that the leaders of the Church didn't have much faith in Gov. Thomas Ford and his promises. As it turned out, their concerns were "prophetic."

    The death of JS I remember what Joseph said, a short time before he was slain in one of the last sermons I ever heard him preach. Said he, “Men are here today who are seeking my blood, and they are those who have held the*[Mormon} Priesthood and have received their washings and anointing’s; men who have received their endowments.” I saw the faces of those men at that time, and they had a hand in slaying the prophet . (JoD v 4 p 149). Wilford Woodruff,

    Brigham Young comments on it.…” when you feel like killing me for so doing, as some of the people did who called themselves brethren in the days of Joseph Smith, look out for yourselves, for ‘false brethren’ were the cause of Joseph's death, and I am not a very righteous man”.(JoD v 3 p.49.)

    Whether Mormons killed JS or not is unimportant many important Mormons wanted to by taking an oath to kill him

  • Allen C Christensen American Fork, UT
    Feb. 21, 2018 6:49 a.m.

    C. H. Wheelock was with Elder Franklin D. Richards and other missionaries returning from Great Britain, when they overtook the Martin Handcart Company on the High Plains. He assisted Elder Richards in administering to a gravely ill 18-year-old Langley Allgood Bailey. The Apostle's blessing promised that Langley would live to see the valleys of the mountains. Langley's mother, Jane Allgood Bailey, had asked that her unconscious son be blessed by Elder Richards. The description of his symptoms suggests he had cholera. Jane Bailey's faith never flagged concerning the matter of that blessing.

    The Richards company of missionaries hurried on to the Salt Lake Valley and notified Brigham Young of the Martin Company's plight. Langley lived to be 91, but he weighed only 60 lbs that winter in Nephi, Utah. He would ultimately serve as patriarch of the Juab Stake as was the father of 17 children.

    I was happy to learn about this special artifact. Thank you!

  • Third try screen name Mapleton, UT
    Feb. 21, 2018 3:21 a.m.

    @MoreMan
    Yes, they DID have a pistol in Carthage Jail. I'm not sure why that should be a surprise to anyone. To me, it was an indication that the leaders of the Church didn't have much faith in Gov. Thomas Ford and his promises. As it turned out, their concerns were "prophetic."

    When I look at these goblets used by the early Saints, it amazes me that any of them survived. Imagine all the disease that was shared by the congregation. Then again, they would have serious immunity if they didn't die from the weekly oral vaccine.

    God moves in mysterious ways.

  • MoreMan San Diego, CA
    Feb. 20, 2018 1:52 p.m.

    "He wrote the words to the familiar hymn ‘Ye Elders of Israel’ and gave the prophet Joseph Smith a pepperbox pistol in Carthage jail just before the prophet’s death.”
    Do martyrs need guns? I am unfamiliar with this bit of His-story.

  • MoreMan San Diego, CA
    Feb. 20, 2018 1:49 p.m.

    Wine + Entheogens = Visions of deity.