RE: Clifton Palmer McLendon. "I call your attention to John 18:10”. If described in the spirit of those who jeer at LDS history, this
incident would be "Jesus was involved in a knife fight shortly before His
death . When the posse came to arrest Jesus, one of His friends pulled out a
big knife and cut off a posse member's ear."?Context, John
18: Verse 11, Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink
the cup the Father has given me?"Christ could have defended
himself if he wanted to, without Peter's drawing his sword; and besides, he
could have had of his Father more than twelve legions of angels.And
it was also contrary to the nature of his kingdom, which was not of this world,
nor to be supported and defended in any such manner;
@MoreMan (in re "Do martyrs need guns?"):I call your
attention to John 18:10.If described in the spirit of those who jeer
at LDS history, this incident would be "Jesus was involved in a knife fight
shortly before His death . When the posse came to arrest Jesus, one of His
friends pulled out a big knife and cut off a posse member's ear."
I am constantly amazed that simple, precious items, like a sacrament cup, can
cause a whole dialogue about the history of the LDS church and whether Joseph
Smith was a prophet. An interesting piece of history was identified. Thank you
for the article.
Thomas Thompson," . . . . at one time, the Mormons used real wine for
their sacrament; it would be interesting to know when the change was made to
water (perhaps not until the administration of President Heber J. Grant?"____________________I don’t know when the change came but
that’s a good guess. Before he became Church President, Heber J. Grant
fought to get state level prohibition enacted in Utah before the Volstead Act
gave us national prohibition (which was repealed after only thirteen years). In
the early twentieth century, the Church began striving to overcome its
nineteenth century image problem of being defiant of civil authority.In the era of prohibition (which had roots in temperance movements across the
country) the Church went one up on the national trend by internally making the
Word of Wisdom a worthiness requirement for advancement in the priesthood and
admittance to the temple. Before the era of issuing temple recommends, Mormons
with reputations as a drunkards could be denied admission to the temple but the
Church was more lenient towards members who were moderate drinkers of alcohol.
RE: NoNamesAccepted. “so what you are saying is that there is a strong
likelihood he was fragged by his own people and that the prevailing narrative
isn't what we have been told that it was anti-Mormon Missourians."Whether Mormons killed JS or not is unimportant many important Mormons
wanted to by taking an oath to kill him for., many marriages. From a Newspaper
article in 1894. Millennial Star Vol 46 pp 497, 498, 499, 501,and 519.Also, Francis M Higbee (excommunicated) was at a meeting of the Mormon
dissenters on April 28.@The law of the church provides(Doctrine and
Covenants 17:22)for the sacraments of the Lords supper in the following
language: It is expedient that the church meet together often to partake of
bread and wine in remembrance of the Lord Jesus
.. This was edited from
the current D &C
There are (at least) two things about this sacrament cup of great interest.
First, it is now apparent that at one time, the Mormons used real wine for their
sacrament; it would be interesting to know when the change was made to water
(perhaps not until the administration of President Heber J. Grant?). The second
is the apparent fact that this was a communal cup, to be partaken of by all --
unlike the present practice of providing partakers with their own individual
cup. Both of these facts have highly interesting theological implications which
deserve to be further explored.
"Utah historian Ron Fox was involved in the research and eventual sale of
the goblet. “The cup is in almost perfect condition,” said Fox.
“You can see inside a little wear from its use as a sacramental cup. It
most likely contained wine and was passed among members during sacrament
services.”Early Mormons could not accept that all that was
required of them was that they treat each other as they would want to be
treated, They could not understand that this Royal Law, the fullness of the
everlasting Gospel, that all the “law and the prophets” were based
on this one principle. There are some who think that the prophet
Joseph Smith took the sacrament, just before his martyrdom in Carthage Jail.
But, as John Taylor later reported:“Sometime after dinner we
sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a
sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and
it was sent for to revive us. ...I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave
some to one or two of the prison guards.” (John Taylor, DHC, 7:101.)
@CMTM, @MoreMan, "so what you are saying is that there is a strong
likelihood he was fragged by his own people and that the prevailing narrative
isn't what we have been told that it was anti-Mormon Missourians."Those who paid attention in LDS services and seminary have always known
that the anti-Mormons in Missouri, Ohio, and Illinois always included
disaffected (ex) Mormons. Sometimes these apostates had been formally
excommunicated or formally announced their resignation from LDS Church
membership. In some cases, these apostates lacked the honesty to make their
disaffection known, but stirred up problems for the Church even as they
deceitfully joined with faithful members for services.Turns out, the
more things change, the more they stay the same. In Utah, from the early days
after the pioneers arrived, right down to present, we continue to have the same
problem with false brethren--men lacking integrity--who claim membership and
fellowship, but who go about stirring up problems with lies and discontent.
Some similar goblets and even bread trays are on display in various meeting
houses around the state, they're very interesting to see.
@CMTM... so what you are saying is that there is a strong likelihood he was
fragged by his own people and that the prevailing narrative isn't what we
have been told that it was anti-Mormon Missourians. Sounds to me like they were
more "anti-Jos.Smith" than "anti-church".
RE: Third try screen name. Yes, they DID have a pistol in Carthage Jail.
I'm not sure why that should be a surprise to anyone. To me, it was an
indication that the leaders of the Church didn't have much faith in Gov.
Thomas Ford and his promises. As it turned out, their concerns were
"prophetic."The death of JS I remember what Joseph said, a
short time before he was slain in one of the last sermons I ever heard him
preach. Said he, “Men are here today who are seeking my blood, and they
are those who have held the*[Mormon} Priesthood and have received their washings
and anointing’s; men who have received their endowments.” I saw the
faces of those men at that time, and they had a hand in slaying the prophet .
(JoD v 4 p 149). Wilford Woodruff, Brigham Young comments on
” when you feel like killing me for so doing, as some of the
people did who called themselves brethren in the days of Joseph Smith, look out
for yourselves, for ‘false brethren’ were the cause of Joseph's
death, and I am not a very righteous man”.(JoD v 3 p.49.)Whether Mormons killed JS or not is unimportant many important Mormons wanted
to by taking an oath to kill him
C. H. Wheelock was with Elder Franklin D. Richards and other missionaries
returning from Great Britain, when they overtook the Martin Handcart Company on
the High Plains. He assisted Elder Richards in administering to a gravely ill
18-year-old Langley Allgood Bailey. The Apostle's blessing promised that
Langley would live to see the valleys of the mountains. Langley's mother,
Jane Allgood Bailey, had asked that her unconscious son be blessed by Elder
Richards. The description of his symptoms suggests he had cholera. Jane
Bailey's faith never flagged concerning the matter of that blessing. The Richards company of missionaries hurried on to the Salt Lake Valley
and notified Brigham Young of the Martin Company's plight. Langley lived to
be 91, but he weighed only 60 lbs that winter in Nephi, Utah. He would
ultimately serve as patriarch of the Juab Stake as was the father of 17
children. I was happy to learn about this special artifact. Thank
@MoreManYes, they DID have a pistol in Carthage Jail. I'm not sure
why that should be a surprise to anyone. To me, it was an indication that the
leaders of the Church didn't have much faith in Gov. Thomas Ford and his
promises. As it turned out, their concerns were "prophetic."When I look at these goblets used by the early Saints, it amazes me that any
of them survived. Imagine all the disease that was shared by the congregation.
Then again, they would have serious immunity if they didn't die from the
weekly oral vaccine.God moves in mysterious ways.
"He wrote the words to the familiar hymn ‘Ye Elders of Israel’
and gave the prophet Joseph Smith a pepperbox pistol in Carthage jail just
before the prophet’s death.” Do martyrs need guns? I am
unfamiliar with this bit of His-story.
Wine + Entheogens = Visions of deity.