Cougsndawgs:I changed nothing in that discussion about Edwards and
Bosco. You just made that up. How frantic and emotional of you. And how
doubly frantic and emotional of you to try to change the subject. You only
admitted your deception after having already been caught. Your false claim came
in on Feb. 13th at 3:55 p.m. I called you out on it less than an hour later at
4:43 -- which for the record, did NOT show Sec. 3.8 as you'd claimed in
your backpedal. And since Sec. 3.8 said nothing about "9/12/17" (it
said ""), and you'd specifically cited "9/12/17", then
that means that you had indeed tried to pull a fast one. Only after my pointing
out that it did not say what you'd claimed it said did you try to circle
back, and act like Sec. 3.8 was what you were talking about all along. Only the
time stamp didn't wash. You'd claimed that you'd looked at Sec.
3.8 at 5:00, but when I'd looked -- at 6:03 -- Sec. 3.8 DIDN'T say
what you'd said it said. So then you circled back to Wikipedia, and
fraudulently changed it to back your claim up. So you lied, then
you lied again, then you circled back and changed the evidence. Disgusting.
Shame on you.
One last thing: I changed the Wiki page list only to show how easy it was to do
after it had been changed from the list I was looking at on 2/13 @ 3:30pm
(probably by NV but I can't prove that so I refuse to call anyone a liar
when I have no proof, like "others" do). I DID NOT change it to prove I
was right (again another misrepresentation to desperately try and prove I'm
lying). Again, anyone can look through this thread and see what I'm talking
about.That is all...I'm not responding to anymore accusations
and disparaging remarks because I can sleep well at night knowing I haven't
lied and owned the mistake I made by referencing the pdf when I believed it
would say what the Wikipedia page SAID...not what it said after
"someone" changed it.
NV:"So no, NV did not show a 'PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over
another PAC 12 team with a better record.'.....in case NV wants to dispute
the above selection order, it comes from the Pac12 Football press release dated
9-12-17."I already owned my mistake in referencing the press
release believing that the Wiki page referencing it would have the accurate
order, which it didn't. Anyone reading this thread can see that I've
owned that mistake on numerous occasions.Strawman definition:
"an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is
easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument".You
couldn't defend your "real argument" that Bosco or Edwards ever
said "BYU wasn't the best in 84" so you CHANGED your argument to
"wouldn't be ranked #1 in today's system", which was easy to
defend when you saw in your search that they didn't say what you said they
did. That is the very definition of a strawman, as anyone who reads that thread
can easily attest.The proof has been given to anyone else reading
any of this thread or the UCF thread that I'm not lying about my mistake or
any of it. THEY can decide and request an apology if they think I am. WE'RE
Cougsndawgs:"I apologize to others for hijacking this
thread."THAT's what you're apologizing for? Not for
lying??? It's the LYING part where you disrespected all readers here.
THAT's what you should be apologizing for. It's already out there --
you'd already been PROVEN to have lied, so admitting your guilt won't
be the part wherein you'd have been exposed. You're already exposed.
You lied. Shame on you! You owe us all an apology.
Cougsndawgs:"I'm talking about the article from Brad Rock
about UCF wherein you used an obvious straw man."Except that
wasn't a straw man. You clearly have no idea what a "straw man"
is. You've just heard me saying it, and you've wanted to say it back
to me. How frantic and emotional of you.As for everybody else,
Cougsndawgs IS trying to backpedal. For starters, he specifically reference the
article dated 9-12-17. See for yourself in his comment back on Feb. 13th, at
3:55 p.m...."So no, NV did not show a 'PAC 12 bowl that
picked Utah over another PAC 12 team with a better record.'.....in case NV
wants to dispute the above selection order, it comes from the Pac12 Football
press release dated 9-12-17."That report he'd cited was
referenced "" under that page's 3.8 section, right after the
"2017" date. If you clicked that "", it takes to an article
at the bottom of the page that is in pdf form, and cannot be changed. On pg. 4,
you will see that it did NOT list the FF bowl behind the Sun. He made that up.
He lied. He even ADMITS to circling back later and changing the Wiki page order
in Sec. 3.8 to validate himself. That's how disingenuous he really is!
I apologize to others for hijacking this thread. I've said my piece and you
have the resources to see for yourself so I'll leave it at that. I'm
done rolling in the mud. I'm taking london's advice and moving on to
more meaningful things.
I'm done. Anyone who wants to verify my word put Bids to College Bowl Games
in your search engine. Under the Wikipedia page with the same name their will be
a link (number 3 I believe) that takes you to the Order of Selection. Go to
Pac12 and tell NV what you see there. I'm NOT referring the pdf which
everyone knows you can't change and I already admitted to my mistake of
referencing the source (pdf) without verifying that the Wikipedia page listed
the order the same way the pdf source listed them.And you know full
well the UCF article we were also arguing on but here's the title in case
you "forgot": "Brad Rock: Dear Central Florida: Get in line; Utah
doesn't have a national championship, either". Now people can go there
and see the strawman argument you tried to pull there as well (which you fully
remember and are pretending ignorance here). There now, anyone can look at the
references above and see just who is being deceitful and who isn't.
Pac-12 Conference2017#1 College Football Playoff. Automatic
berth to one of the New Year's Six bowl games, traditionally the Rose Bowl
if a slot is available.#2 The Alamo Bowl versus Big 12.#3 The
Holiday Bowl versus Big Ten.#4 The Sun Bowl versus ACC.#5 The Las
Vegas Bowl versus Mountain West.#6 The Cactus Bowl versus Big 12 #6#7 The Foster Farms Bowl versus Big Ten.=Taken directly from the
Wikipedia page under Bids to College Bowl Games just as I said. If you
can't read it, I can't help you. And stop referencing the pdf...I
already said I took Wiki at their word which was my mistake rather than checking
that the pdf reflected what it says above on the Wikipedia page.
NV:"Another backpedal? Where did I say anything about UCF here? You
just made that up. Another lie".I'm talking about the
article from Brad Rock about UCF wherein you used an obvious straw man. You know
exactly what I'm talking about...yet somehow now you have selective
amnesia.For the last time it's NOT the pdf I was looking at on
Wiki it was the list that is there right NOW under the search I described below.
I referenced the off making the mistake of believing that Wiki' s list
would reflect the pdf they referenced. I DID change it and it SAYS Sum #4 and
Foster #7 right now. Stop pretending you don't see it. And I'M the
dishonest one. Again put Bids to College Bowl Games in search engine. Click on
it and then click on Order of selection on the Wiki page. Go to Pac12 and look
at the order! And anyone else follow those instructions and tell NV what you
Cougsndawgs:Another backpedal? Where did I say anything about UCF
here? You just made that up. Another lie. And that's not an "ad
hominem" attack. It's a "fact". If that pdf file said what
you'd said it said yesterday, then why don't you go back and change it
to prove me wrong?Answer: Because you CAN'T. It's a pdf
file. It can't be changed! You got busted lying, so what do
you do? Answer: Point the finger at me. That is so typical of Y
The list WAS what I said it was yesterday. It WAS changed...how or by whom, I
don't know. I took ownership of mistakenly believing the Wikipedia list
would match the list on the press release it referenced. It didn't, and I
corrected myself after digging further. That is not lying...nowhere in my
defense have I lied, ANYWHERE.Ad hominem attacks to prove a point
are not only a logical fallacy they're not in good taste. The only way one
could logically call me a liar is if they were me looking at the wikipedia list
at 3:30pm yesterday, or they were the individual who changed the list. If said
person fits neither description they can't logically call me a liar as they
have no knowledge of the event in question (and I'm NOT a liar...again the
Wikipedia list was as I said it was).The strawman was in reference
to another conversation about UCF, where a strawman was used to try and
desperately win an argument. I do know what it is but that conversation leads me
to believe "others" don't.
You can't wrestle a pig in the pig pen without also getting dirty, and that
comment is directed at more than one person.It's a comment page
about football on Valentines day - people, go do something creative or fun with
NV:It WAS just as I said it was at 3:30pm yesterday. I made the mistake of
thinking the list on Wikipedia would be exactly as it was on the press release
THEY referenced. It obviously wasn't and I owned that mistake. NOWHERE in
all of that am I lying. Again, I didn't pull #4 and #7 out of a hat...it
WAS there in black and white (not the press release it referenced and I
mistakenly took to exhibit what the wiki list said).You attacking my
character is called an ad hominem fallacy. See, I know what that is along with
the strawman arguments you've tried to pull in the past like in our UCF
argument. The only way you can logically call me a liar is if you were me
looking at the list at 3:30pm yesterday or if you changed the list. If you are
neither than you can't logically call me a liar. It DID list it the way I
said it yesterday...and I can rest easy at night KNOWING that to be the case
regardless of all the name-calling, and derogatory attacks from you. Why or how
it was changed on Wiki I have no idea...well I do but I'll leave it there
because I want this posted and not censored like my other rebuttals before it.
Cougsndawgs:"And you probably DID change it trying to make me
look bad. I'm done here."I don't NEED to make you look
bad! You're doing a bang up job of that all on your own!
Cougsndawgs:I went back to Wikipedia, and it's STILL a pdf file
that can't be changed. All you did was try to change the Wiki section 3.8,
but the link clearly marked "" STILL takes you down to the bottom of
the page, and that line STILL lists the Pac-12's bowl selection order as
(1) Rose, (2) Alamo, (3) Holiday, (4) Foster Farms, (5) Sun, (6) Las Vegas, and
(7) Cactus. It's all right there on pg. 4, just like it had ALWAYS read,
going all the way back to the Sept. 12, 2017 date you'd previously
cited.And no, being nice to me doesn't whitewash your
deliberate attempts to obfuscate the truth! If you behave in a disingenuous
manner, you won't get any civility from me. You'll get all the scorn
you deserve."And you have NEVER admitted when you're wrong
before...you just couldn't escape actual numbers this time so no strawman
was going to work for you."There you go again. Making stuff up.
I HAVE admitted when I've been wrong before. I'm just not wrong as
frequently as YOU are. And do you even know what a "straw man" is?
Because I fail to see how such a term is applicable anywhere on this page.If you want respect, quit lying!
And just so you can see how easy it is go to Bids to college bowl games and then
order of selection and look at it now. Easy peasy. It WAS how it is ordered
now...whether you like it or not. And you probably DID change it trying to make
me look bad. I'm done here.
NV:"I'm not an indy-WACer, so I can admit when I'm wrong.
It's cougar nation that refused to admit it. Just like how you're
trying to convince people that at one point Wikipedia referenced information
that never existed. But you don't fool me. That was a pdf page. You
can't change that. I'm sure you would if you could, as you're
desperately trying to save face here, but you can't! Never did it ever say
what you'd said it said.Never!You were 100%, all
the way WRONG! Own it!"Wow, so much for me trying to be
friendly...what did I expect I guess. And you have NEVER admitted when
you're wrong before...you just couldn't escape actual numbers this
time so no strawman was going to work for you. Wikipedia did say the
order I said. You obviously don't know anything about
Wikipedia...there's an edit button next to anything that you can use to
change information and have it verified. The pdf is in the reference
section...that you can't change. Go into it and do it yourself so you can
see how it works...if not who cares. Thanks for the friendly conversation.
Cougsndawgs:I'm not an indy-WACer, so I can admit when I'm
wrong. It's cougar nation that refused to admit it. Just like how
you're trying to convince people that at one point Wikipedia referenced
information that never existed. But you don't fool me. That was a pdf
page. You can't change that. I'm sure you would if you could, as
you're desperately trying to save face here, but you can't! Never did
it ever say what you'd said it said.Never!You were
100%, all the way WRONG! Own it!
NV:"I admit the typo by misplacing Stanford at #19 rather than #18.
However, that was the ONLY error in my post".Wow, I admit I
didn't think you'd own it...good on ya. The rest of your post I
already understand...anyone who follows CFB since the BCS understands (well
except some fans who shall remain nameless). As for uneducated, I didn't go
to BYU and rarely questioned coaches on their choice of offense/defensive
scheme, so I can't speak to that. I've been to RES and LES
and heard a whole lot of "uneducated" at both venues...so I think
it's fair to say that isn't a BYU/Utah thing but rather a CFB
fan(atics) thing. "You guys" can be pretty "uneducated" as
well...I remember in 2005-06 all the "uneducated" ute fans calling for
Whit's head.Now the real question: did you change the
wikipedia? lol...in good fun, not trying to poke at you just asking for
real...did you hit the 'edit' button? I thought about changing it back
to mess with people but decided it should probably remain factual.
“@DaysSinceBYUwon 3,000. That's over 72,000 hours. Over 4,320,000
mins. Let that sink in @BYUfootball”Go Utes!
Cougsndawgs:I admit the typo by misplacing Stanford at #19 rather
than #18. However, that was the ONLY error in my post. I was NOT wrong on the
"N/A(s)" for Utah and Stanford, as there IS no final CFP poll after the
bowls have been played. Just like there was no final BCS poll after those bowls
had been played either. That's the thing you indy-WACers never really
understood! The BCS and CFP polls were designed to determine "who would
play in what bowl game(s)". Not "who was the best team at the end of
the season". That's why if you looked at the final CFP poll of 2016,
it shows Alabama at #1......when in fact Clemson was the national
champion that year!There's a reason why mendenmidmajor called
you guys "uneducated" ya know...
Stanford was ranked #18...not 19...waiting for you to own your error while
trying to "embarrass" people.
NV:Will you own your mistake like I did?...
NV:"Similarly, prior to the postseason, Stanford wound up ranked...CFP: #19AP: #16And after the postseason, Stanford
wound up ranked...CFP: n/aAP: #12 (up 4 spots)"Nope- how embarrassing for YOU.Final CFP ranking for Stanford was #18,
not "n/a". How disingenuous of you.Btw- Wikipedia DID have
the Sun #4 and the Foster Farms #7 @ 3:30pm yesterday. It's since been
changed. And anyone who's worked with Wiki knows that isn't hard to
submit. So I WASN'T trying to hide anything...or do you think I drew #4 and
#7 out of a hat?
DeepBlue:"navel [sic] vet thinks that Utah got a bowl
upgrade?.....LOL!.....Consider the post season ranking results.....Stanford won
their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #19 CFP to #12 Final AP.....Utah won
their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #18 CFP to #21 Final AP.....Navel's
definition of an upgrade is obviously moving from coach to baggage
compartment."What a disingenuous and/or "uneducated"
thing to say. Now for the facts/truth...Prior to the postseason,
Utah ended ranked as follows...CFP: #19AP: NR (2-spots out
of this poll)After the postseason, Utah's final ranking was as
follows...CFP: n/aAP: #23 (up 4 spots)Similarly,
prior to the postseason, Stanford wound up ranked...CFP: #19AP: #16And after the postseason, Stanford wound up ranked...CFP: n/aAP: #12 (up 4 spots)So rather than dropping
3 spots in the AP, we rose 4 -- just like Stanford. And you just got caught
either lying, or exposing your ignorance as to the difference between the CFP
poll, and the AP. Either way, how embarrassing for you.
Not matter how you spin it with this silly star system.The eastern
part of this country has the best college football teams.No team in
the PAC12 can compete with eastern schools no matter how many stars are
given.Give them eight stars and it doesn't matter.
AZUTE1:If our envious indy-WACey little brothers insist on
challenging you as to whether or not Garett Bolles had ever been rated a 5-star
recruit by Scout, you can just refer them to the article "Five-star Snow
College offensive lineman Garett Bolles commits to Utah", that was published
by the Desert News' own sportswriter, Ryan McDonald, back on Jan. 4, 2016,
at 10:35 am. If they can't confirm that article as having ever
been written, with all that "Google search engine" requirements that
I'd just posted, then it's just a simple case of willful ignorance.
If Bolles wasn’t listed as a 5-star WHEN he signed, then he wasn’t a
5-star signee.It’s really quite simple.
“Garett Bolles was listed as a 4-star recruit by 247 Sports, Rivals and
ESPN (JC50) when he was signed by Utah out of Snow College.”In
no way even remotely renders the following statement from me incorrect,
period—"Previous to the 247 takeover, Scout did in fact
list Gb as a 5-Star recruit."
“Let's review.Stanford won their bowl by 2 points and
jumped from #18 CFP to #12 AP (+6)Utah won their bowl by 2 points
and dropped from #19 CFP to #23 AP (-4).“Huh?A
school doesn’t jump from a spot in The Cfp Poll into a spot in The Ap
Poll.What are you even talking about?
Cougsndawgs:"Take it easy...I went to wikipedia and it
referenced the football release on 9/12/17. I already addressed that I found the
true selection order after digging further. Chill."First of all,
you had NOT "already addressed...the true selection order after digging
further". You said the Sun selected ahead of the Foster Farms Bowl at 3:55,
and the very next post you'd left was the 4:56 one I'm responding to
right now.Second, Wikipedia didn't say that EITHER!There are just no depths you won't plumb in order to obscure the facts.
You should just stop. You're breaking Riverton Cougar's heart.
Ok I addressed it but it's not posting. Anyway, I already found after
digging that the order in Wikipedia was wrong...not sure why it didn't
NV:Take it easy...I went to wikipedia and it referenced the football
release on 9/12/17. I already addressed that I found the true selection order
after digging further. Chill.
Cougsndawgs:"NV pulled a fast one on you.....NV's argument
was that the Foster Farms Bowl took Utah and relegated Stanford to the Sun Bowl.
This is where he was disingenuous when talking about selection of opponents. The
Sun Bowl is the #4 pick from the Pac 12, while the Foster Farms is the #7
pick."On the contrary, it looks like YOU'RE the one trying
to pull a fast one here. The Pac-12's bowl selection goes
accordingly...1st: Rose2nd: Alamo3rd: Holiday4th: Foster Farms5th: Sun6th: Las Vegas7th: CactusThe Foster Farms Bowl picks AHEAD of the Sun, and has been doing so
since 2014. So yes, Utah was selected ahead of Stanford back in 2016, thus
dropping Stanford down to the Sun Bowl.Wow! You indy-WACers will
stop at NOTHING to spread misinformation.
Oh boy, this is fun. Watching Ute "fans" get owned by facts is much more
entertaining than I thought it would be!
Deep Blue:"Stanford played North Carolina (8-5) in the Sun Bowl,while Utah was stuck playing Indiana (6-7) in the Foster Farms Bowl?Yet
navel vet thinks that Utah got a bowl upgrade?"NV pulled a fast
one on you. See, the Foster Farms bowl is actually a higher payout than the Sun
Bowl, it is true. However, NV's argument was that the Foster Farms Bowl
took Utah and relegated Stanford to the Sun Bowl. This is where he was
disingenuous when talking about selection of opponents. The Sun Bowl is the #4
pick from the Pac 12, while the Foster Farms is the #7 pick. So it is true that
the Sun Bowl didn't want Utah and chose Stanford ahead of them. So no, NV did not show a "PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over another PAC 12
team with a better record." Troll Police's question still goes
unanswered. BTW, in case NV wants to dispute the above selection
order, it comes from the Pac12 Football press release dated 9-12-17.
azute1Let's review.Stanford won their bowl by 2
points and jumped from #18 CFP to #12 AP (+6)Utah won their bowl by
2 points and dropped from #19 CFP to #23 AP (-4).A difference of 10
places.Quite obviously, Stanford had a much better bowl matchup than
Cfp Poll doesn’t equate to Ap/Coaches polls, Btw.
AZUTE1"Previous to the 247 takeover, Scout did in fact list Gb
as a 5-Star recruit..."Garett Bolles was listed as a 4-star
recruit by 247 Sports, Rivals and ESPN (JC50) when he was signed by Utah out of
deepblue—Per your own words, we made a greater jump in # of
spots forward than did Stanford.Per Naval_Vet’s
comment—“Stanford ALSO ranked ahead of the Utes in the
AP (#16 vs. Utah's 2-spots outside of that poll), “Go
“Sorry to burst your crimson bubble, but, according to 247 Sports,Garrett Bolles was a 4-star recruit.Utah hasn’t signed
a single 5-star recruit in more than a decade.”Previous to the
247 takeover, Scout did in fact list Gb as a 5-Star recruit....This is fact.Go Utes!
DeepBlue"Stanford won their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #19
CFP to #12 Final AP.Utah won their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #18
CFP to #21 Final AP."It was worse than that.Stanford
won their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #18 CFP to #12 AP and #12 Coaches.Utah won their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #19 CFP to #23 AP and #21
Coaches.Similar game results; much different opponents; completely
opposite results.Only a team that plays a pathetically weak bowl
opponent would drop in the polls after winning their bowl game.
GandalphSo, in 2016,Stanford played North Carolina (8-5)
in the Sun Bowl,while Utah was stuck playing Indiana (6-7) in the
Foster Farms Bowl?Yet navel vet thinks that Utah got a bowl
upgrade?LOL!Consider the post season ranking results.Stanford won their bowl by 2 points and jumped from #19 CFP to #12 Final
AP.Utah won their bowl by 2 points and dropped from #18 CFP to #21 Final
AP.Navel's definition of an upgrade is obviously moving from
coach to baggage compartment.
Gandalph:There it IS! There's that "moving of the goal
posts" that I fully expected you frantic and emotional indy-WACers to
present in order to distract from the FACT that "TrollPolice" was WRONG!
How predictable.Did he not say, "U can't show me a single
PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over another PAC 12 team with a better
record"???Yep!And could I show him an example of one
anyway???Yep!Case closed: TrollPolice was WRONG! And
since he was wrong, he had no point. How frustrating and embarrassing for you
navelvet"In 2016, Utah finished the regular season 8-4 (5-4
Pac-12), and ranked 19th in the final CFP poll.Stanford on the other
hand finished 9-3 (6-3 Pac-12), and ranked 18th in the final CFP poll.Stanford ALSO ranked ahead of the Utes in the AP (#16 vs. Utah's 2-spots
outside of that poll), and the Coaches (#16 vs. Utah's #23) polls.Yet Utah was invited to the Foster Farms Bowl, thereby dropping Stanford down
to the Sun. How frantic and emotional of YOU to be denying reality."Yawn.The Foster Farms Bowl was simply looking for a little
variety, since Stanford had already played in their bowl just a couple of years
earlier.Stanford played North Carolina (8-5) in the Sun Bowl.Utah was stuck playing pathetically weak Indiana (6-7), a team that
hasn't won a bowl game in 30 years, in the Foster Farms Bowl.
TrollPolice:"Navel vet [sic].....U can’t show me a single
PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah over another PAC 12 team with a better
record."In 2016, Utah finished the regular season 8-4 (5-4
Pac-12), and ranked 19th in the final CFP poll.Stanford on the other
hand finished 9-3 (6-3 Pac-12), and ranked 18th in the final CFP poll.Stanford ALSO ranked ahead of the Utes in the AP (#16 vs. Utah's 2-spots
outside of that poll), and the Coaches (#16 vs. Utah's #23) polls.Yet Utah was invited to the Foster Farms Bowl, thereby dropping Stanford down
to the Sun. How frantic and emotional of YOU to be denying reality.[* This is the part wherein you or some other indy-WACer desperately tries to
move the goal posts... *]
ekuteHow is your constant denigrating of BYU,going to
help U become something more than a perennial mid PAC South dweller?
Truth Machine:"Navel [sic] vet.....What’s your source that
Rivals is the most accurate rating service and when was that
“Independent” study conducted?"Again??? How many
times do I have to post that here? You indy-WACers have the memory span of a
goldfish!Here's your Google search engine requires....AGAIN!1. "Rating the Raters: Reviewing Recruiting Services for Success
and Bias April 18 2014"2. "Ranking the rankers: Revisiting past
Rivals and Scout college football recruiting rankings Jon Solomon February 4
2014"3. "Rivals predicted the most NFL first-rounders from
2013-17, with Scout last An Eleven Warriors' analysis broke down just how
well each recruiting site did at projecting first-round picks from 2013-17
Andrew Bucholtz on 07/07/2017"I could find no "external"
rating sources that ranked Scout, 247, nor ESPN as the most accurate source.Conclusion: Edge Rivals.
Navel vetU can’t show me a single PAC 12 bowl that picked Utah
over another PAC 12 team with a better record.Conversely, I can show
you numerous instances of PAC 12 teams with worse records getting picked over
Utah.How frantic and emotional of you to be denying reality.
how is your fruitless stomping on the Utes going to put out that dumpster fire
Navel vetWhat’s your source that Rivals is the most accurate
rating service and when was that “Independent” study conducted?What metrics were used in the study, which services were included, and
what were the actual bottom line numbers?
Worf: “There's a QB on the current BYU team who was rated a top ten
QB all time coming out of high school yet not good enough to be a college
There doesn't need to be any argument about who the best recruiting service
is. They all have different ways of evaluating players (some based solely on how
players perform at specific camps). The research done is clear that Rivals has
the best prediction rate of any of the services, and that Scout.com has the
worst. That said, Rivals is not far ahead of 247 when it comes to
predicting first round draft picks. When it comes to predicting collegiate
success the gap is even smaller (Rivals has only predicted 2 more right than
247). I think the 247 composite is the most exhaustive and thorough ranking
because it takes into account all the major service rankings...so that would
make it less biased.But none of that is necessary for Utah and BYU
fans because they don't get 5 star athletes and aren't even close to
the programs that do. Performance on the field has been shown to be correlative
with recruiting, whether we like it or not...so enough of the stars don't
matter spin. Go Cougs! Go Dawgs!
Gandalph:"The real truth is, it's not just USC.....Most of
the PAC 12 affiliated bowls would pick any other PAC 12 team over U."No, the REAL truth is, you'd just made that up. How frantic and
emotional of you.
Rockwell "It's laughable how rating services are always
"cherry-picked" and "random", whenever they don't support
the current Ute fan narrative."In 2016, Utah finished ranked in
the top 25 of the AP and Coaches polls. BYU was unranked. Scoreboard
doesn't matter, say Cougar fans. Only Sagarin matters, because Sagarin had
BYU #36, Utah #37.In 2017, suddenly the scoreboard counts. A 6
point difference on the scoreboard "proves" BYU and Utah are almost
even, conveniently ignoring the formerly "golden" Sagarin ratings --
Utah #35, BYU #150. Cougar fan cherry picking is obvious.
Gandalph:"You obviously don't understand navel [sic]
vet's ground rules...Ratings are only valid if you use navel [sic]
vet's cherry-picked rating service,.....rather than the most accurate
rating service."Cherry-picked??? Name even ONE time that
I'd EVER cited ANY recruit rating source OTHER than Rivals as my choice of
rating source.Can't do it, can ya? I only cite Rivals! And if
I only cite Rivals, then that isn't cherry-picking. You'd just made
that up. How frantic and emotional of you. And FWIW, Rivals was
independently rated as the "most accurate" rating service. Not 247.
Those who prefer to cite 247 due to it's "averaging" methodology
are those who would fall prey to the "argument to moderation" logical
navel vet"...the truth is, there likely isn't a single bowl
game in the whole state of California that -- if given a choice -- would pick
another team ahead of USC."The real truth is, it's not just
USC.Most of the PAC 12 affiliated bowls would pick any other PAC 12
team over U.
phoenix:"According to 247 Sports, you've never signed a
5-star recruit..."So? According to Rivals, we HAD signed one.
Scout records Utah with having signed a 5-star recruit, but I neglected to
mention that one because Scout hadn't ever been rated as the "most
accurate" of all recruit rating sources. And neither had 247 for that
matter. Rivals had.Spin it anyway that helps U sleep at night, but
the FACT is, "northern_lights", "FACTchequer", "Ufan",
and "Marked it Down" were ALL wrong! I was right. They were wrong.
And that just drives indy-WACers like you, "Rockwell", "Bubble boy
utes", "Jello is Good", "SLCWatch", and that indy-WACer
leaving posts pretending to be me and/or Chris B just absolutely crazy! Because
you all just WISH so hard that it weren't so. How frustratingly miserable
for you all. Haha!
phoenix"According to 247 Sports, you've never signed a
5-star recruit, while USC has signed FOURTEEN 5-star recruits in the last 5
recruiting classes."You obviously don't understand navel
vet's ground rules.Ratings are only valid if you use navel
vet's cherry-picked rating service,rather than the most
accurate rating service.
Phoenix:"You can speculate on the 'reason' all you
want to, but bottom line is the Holiday Bowl wanted USC, not U."See that? Now your moving the goal posts again. That's so typical of
cougar nation. First you insinuate that it's some sort of "Pac-12
thing". Now you're admitting that it was a "USC" thing all
along. But the truth is, there likely isn't a single bowl game in the
whole state of California that -- if given a choice -- would pick another team
ahead of USC.Fail.
Navel vet"Yeah, and that reason was that given the choice
between Utah and USC, the Holiday Bowl preferred the "California" team.
Duh!"You can speculate on the "reason" all you want to,
but bottom line is the Holiday Bowl wanted USC, not U.
@northern_lights: "Navel Vet.....LOL at how you completely dodged listing
the 5-star recruits that Utah has signed.....Still waiting for your list of Utah
5 stars."@navel vet: "What are you talking about teeny-tiny
little bro? I didn't dodge it. I addressed it in my "Feb. 12, 2018 6:30
p.m." post -- about a 104-min prior to your post accusing me of dodging
it!"According to 247 Sports, you've never signed a 5-star
recruit, while USC has signed FOURTEEN 5-star recruits in the last 5 recruiting
classes.Spin it anyway that helps U sleep at night, but those are
phoenix:"There's a reason why fellow PAC 12 members with
worse overall records continue to be slotted higher in the PAC 12 bowl pecking
order than U."Yeah, and that reason was that given the choice
between Utah and USC, the Holiday Bowl preferred the "California" team.
Sooner Ute"You're ignoring the upside of Utah's bowl
potential. Had ESPN not arranged the Debacle In the Desert vs BYU , Utah should
have earned the Holiday Bowl that year."You're confusing
Utah's market value to bowl organizers with your overly inflated opinion of
the national interest in Ute football.There's a reason why
fellow PAC 12 members with worse overall records continue to be slotted higher
in the PAC 12 bowl pecking order than U.The sad truth is, the
Holiday Bowl didn't want U.
northern_lights:"Navel Vet.....LOL at how you completely dodged
listing the 5-star recruits that Utah has signed.....Still waiting for your list
of Utah 5 stars."What are you talking about teeny-tiny little
bro? I didn't dodge it. I addressed it in my "Feb. 12, 2018 6:30
p.m." post -- about a 104-min prior to your post accusing me of dodging
it!Still waiting for you to admit that you were wrong about me
having not posted about Utah signing a 5-star recruit named James Aiono!
Uteology"What is hilarious is BYU's massive recruiting
advantage over Weber State yet you finished 5th in state.Class
Rankings:#3 USC#38 Utah#94 BYU"What's
really hilarious is BYU's haters pretending that BYU's first losing
season since 2004 is a trend, rather than what it really is, an anomaly.Even more hilarious is pretending that ordinal differences in rankings
are meaningful, while completely ignoring qualitative differences.Utah is MUCH closer to BYU in terms of 4- and 5-star recruits, than the Utes
are to USC.
sir,"BYU has 6 games scheduled against very good teams. Maybe in
future years BYU should "Dumb down their schedule as in the past to where
they have 2-3 good teams and the rest games that are "winnable" for BYU.
(Most Ute fans would be happy to help - perhaps scheduling a BYU vs Utah game
once every 10 years.)"I see BYU is scheduled to play Arizona,
Wisconsin, Washington and Boise State next year. Which two teams are the other
"very good" ones? NIU and UMass, or Cal and NIU?BYU fans do
appreciate the scheduling of Utah to facilitate dumbing down the Y's
schedule. Thank you, even though fans have no input on it.
Jello:"@ Naval...95, 96, 97, 98 and 99. One more and you will
reach the century mark of obsession."...said the indy-WACer who
keeps a constant running tab on the number of comments I actually leave.
Typical hypocritical coug! And who's this indy-WACer leaving
posts under MY name back on Feb. 12, 2018 at 9:52 p.m.? I've actually seen
several of them over the past week. Talk about an "obsession". You
cougie fans are so obsessed with me, that you're starting to pretend to BE
me!"As I have said before, you would rather be in LES booing
than RES cheering."You may have "said" that before, but
since you'd just "made that up", it's of no consequence. If I
would rather boo at LES than cheer at RES, then why haven't I ever gone to
any cougar games? I flew all the way across the country to watch the Utah-UWa
game last Nov, and the Utah-Ind game 11-months before that! I'd also flown
down to El Paso for the 2011 Sun Bowl. But did I fly to Las Vegas for the 2015
Las Vegas Bowl?Nope. Didn't care. I have no intention of
flying all the way across the country to watch Utah play small ball.Fail.
Sooner"35-0 after 10 minutes of play is not something I expect
from a "best" opponent."BYU gifted U FIVE touchdowns in
the first 10 minutes, then dominated U the remainder of the game, coming up one
possession shy of sending the game into OT.Passing OffenseBYU
25/56, 315 yardsUtah 9/16, 71 yardsRushing OffenseBYU 25
carries, 71 yards, 2.8 y/cUtah 47 carries, 126 yards, 2.7 y/cTotal OffenseBYU 386 yardsUtah 197 yardsIt's
laughable how rating services are always "cherry-picked" and
"random", whenever they don't support the current Ute fan
BlueHusky:"I like the former BYU 2-star who is Utah's head
coach."Except that Kyle Whittingham wasn't a
"2-star" former player. You'd just made that up. How frantic and
emotional of you.Star ratings didn't exist until the late
SLCWatch:"Navel [sic] vet-Everything you said in your last post
was an admission that you are obsessed with BYU, except for your statement that
you would never admit it. And you accuse someone else of 'Moving the goal
posts'?"I accused somebody else of moving the goal posts
because he moved the goal posts. I even PROVED it! You on the other hand just
tossed out some hyperbolic accusation, and failed to support even one iota of
it. In other words, you'd just made that up. How frantic and emotional of
@Rockwellbtw, it's hilarious how you whine about having
USC's massive recruiting advantage "thrown in your face", while
you're throwing Utah's MUCH smaller recruiting advantage in BYU's
face.-------What is hilarious is BYU's massive
recruiting advantage over Weber State yet you finished 5th in state.Class Rankings:#3 USC#38 Utah#94 BYUWhen did BYU
"fans" start cheering for all things USC?
65TossPowerTrap:"Get serious and rational. [The cougars']
2018 [schedule] is just as hard..."It's just as hard as
what??? Last year's 74th-rank SOS??? Didn't you mean that your 2018
schedule is "just as EASY"???Weak SOS midmajors forever.
Keep it Simple. Utah is slowly improving recruiting classes, facilities, and
player depth the last few years. In business terms, we are trending in the
right direction and the business fundamentals are solid. Results on the field
are slowly improving...a few more years of this trend and it could get
interesting. Can you say the same about BYU's program?
Rockwell - Utah's best bowl opponent, by far, has been... BYU"You
can cherry pick numbers from some ranking service to make BYU look good, but
"best bowl opponent"? 35-0 after 10 minutes of play is not something I
expect from a "best" opponent.You're ignoring the
upside of Utah's bowl potential. Had ESPN not arranged the Debacle In the
Desert vs BYU , Utah should have earned the Holiday Bowl that year. Winning the
south could earn the Utes a NY6 game. In contrast, the Las Vegas Bowl is the
best that BYU can realistically reach anymore.
Jello is Good,It would appear that most of your byu friends would rather
be at USC cheering.
I smell natty...
ekute"For those throwing USC in Utah's face, consider
this-As of recent Utah is 2-2 vs USC and lost last year by just 1
point."Remind us how many CCG, CFP and NY6 bowls have the Utes
have played in.What you've failed to understand is that
USC's recruiting was off a little when Utah joined the PAC 12. In the last 5 classes, it's improved dramatically, and the 4- and 5-star
recruits from the 2013 and 2014 classes are now Juniors and Seniors, talented
and experienced.btw, it's hilarious how you whine about having
USC's massive recruiting advantage "thrown in your face", while
you're throwing Utah's MUCH smaller recruiting advantage in BYU's
@ Naval95, 96, 97, 98 and 99. One more and you will reach the century
mark of obsession. You are the best BYU fan ever.As I have said
before, you would rather be in LES booing than RES cheering.
SoonerUteSince joining the "conference of champions",
Utah's best bowl opponentl, by far, has been...BYU,in the Las Vegas Bowl.2011 - Sun - Ga Tech (#56)2014 - Las
Vegas - CSU (#65) 2015 - Las Vegas - BYU (#39)2016 - Foster Farms -
Ind (#69)2017 - Heart of Dallas - WVa (#49)
A word of advise to my fellow Coug fans:Stop with the losing/lame
arguments. I have two I wish to address today.1. Stars don't
matter. Go to ESPN.com and use the search to look up "Who makes the College
Football Playoffs: The recruiting rankings will tell you". Neither BYU nor
Utah will ever win a National Championship unless there is a paradigm shift. I
am ok with this as BYU is ahead 1-0, As a side note Utah can say its old, but
they still don't have one. There are exceptions to every rule, for example,
low ranking players coming into their own and excelling at the college and pro
level. And the opposite, highly ranked players that flame out. Neither of these
change the overall trend.2. We only lost by "x" amount of
points. Stupid argument, we lost. Seven in a row is domination regardless of
point differential. It is probable that this streak will continue as BYU tries
to get its act together. We have no room to brag because we only lost by
"x" amount of points. Lamest argument ever.With that said I
will continue to cheer for my Cougars and hold out some hope for victory every
time we play the Utes. I invite my fellow BYU fans to dump the pathetic
For those throwing USC in Utah's face, consider this-As of
recent Utah is 2-2 vs USC and lost last year by just 1 point.Using
happy valley logic, it would appear that the 2 programs are virtually identical.
"The 2018 schedule is far softer than the 2017. Sitaki really needs to
finish 10 - 3 with a bowl win to show that he has what it takes."Get serious and rational. 2018 is just as hard, and by the way - Detmer is
gone - get over it.
eagle - Provo, UT "Utes barely beating BYU has telegraphed a lot of mediocre
seasons"3 of 4 seasons ending with a top 25 ranking is what you call
mediocre?BYU would love to be "mediocre". I hope the Utes are
"mediocre" again this season."appearance in a lackluster
bowl"For a BYU fan, thank goodness for those, right? If not for
"too many bowl games", where would the Cougars play? BYU's future
is lackluster bowl games. All the "good games" are contractually
obligated. An 11 win season could easily mean the Heart Of Dallas Bowl for BYU.
Capsaicin"Let’s talk about the ethos of keeping a program
around that has nothing to do with academics, and is hard on the brain and body.
BYU should shut down their football sports program."We'll
follow the lead of that brainiac conference on the left coast on that one, since
they're supposed to be the gold standard of academic excellence in the
wild, wild west.
Navel vet-Everything you said in your last post was an admission that you
are obsessed with BYU, except for your statement that you would never admit it.
And you accuse someone else of “Moving the goal posts”?
Let’s talk about the ethos of keeping a program around that has nothing to
do with academics, and is hard on the brain and body. BYU should shut down their
football sports program.
"byu's average star recruiting class for 2018 is 2.1 - Tell me the last
time a team won a football national title with such a horribly low
class."I believe the goal is to make it to a bowl game with 6
wins.Also, return missionaries don't have proper star rankings,
the system has never really worked out for BYU and the years that BYU did well
didn't necessarily translate into wins for BYU.Meanwhile, Utah
should be a solid #3 in the PAC south based on recruiting, miles behind USC and
well behind UCLA and a bit ahead of Zona and Buffs and ASU - but don't you
still need to play the game?Who cares about the stars - it's
all in how the players show up for the games!
This is a make or break year for Sitaki. Nine or more years, contract renewal.
Eight or seven wins, one more year. Six or fewer wins and it’s new head
coach time. He might get another year if he finishes 6 -6 with a Utah victory
and a bowl win (7 - 6).The 2018 schedule is far softer than the
2017. Sitaki really needs to finish 10 - 3 with a bowl win to show that he has
what it takes. Michigan State did it from 2016 to 2017, turning around a from a
3 - 9 year to a 10 - 3 top 20 ranking in one year. But don’t
hold your breath.
Tweaking is nice in tennis, maybe, but in football good hard blocking and
tackling would produce better results. Last season Nebraska also won only four
games. You might be interested in reading (Lincoln newspapers) about what the
new coach is doing to fix the problem(s). No mention about "tweaking."
And in two days Husker fans bought out all the tickets (90,000+) for the spring
game. How about responding with more fire and enthusiasm from the Cougar
coaches, players and fans?
You guys and your stars. Don't you realize that half or more of BYU's
2 and 3 star players come back from missions 2 years older. Coaches complain
about BYU's older players for a good reason. Maturity makes a
difference.As for your criticisms of the coaches ... you don't
know squat about coaching unless you played. And if you played, you
wouldn't be making such stupid statements.As I have been saying
over and over, it is COACHES that matter. Great coaches attract great players,
but it takes a few years. USC with all their 5 stars was mediocre the last
decade, losing to Oregon and Stanford consistently. Oregon had two great
coaches. Washington was mediocre ever since Don James was fired. Three years
ago, Chris Peterson left Boise for Washington. Bingo: National Championship
Game. Before Sabin came to Alabama, UA sucked. Do I need to say more?I like the former BYU 2-star who is Utah's head coach. But he hates
offense or something. His defense is great, his offense is not. He's half
of a great coach. New OC's every year is not a good thing. Finally, a 7 game streak is not permanent. Oregon beat UW more than a dozen
straight until last year. Now it is 2-0 and counting.
scrappy do“You can’t beat the big boys without talentEthos is just a mirage on the gridiron”Which is
precisely why the Utes will never win a PAC 12 Championship or play in the
CFP.The Utes will never out-recruit the big boys of the PAC 12.
I think the Utes barely beating BYU has telegraphed a lot of mediocre seasons, a
November swoon of big losses in clutch moments and an appearance in a lackluster
bowl. Heck, in one they can even play BYU.
JDWhere’d you seduce from anything written in the article that
Sitake didn’t work just as hard in assembling his first group of
coaches?Coaching is just as much a learning process for coaches, as
becoming a successful college football player is for athletes.
AZUTE1Sorry to burst your crimson bubble, but, according to 247
Sports,Garrett Bolles was a 4-star recruit.Utah
hasn’t signed a single 5-star recruit in more than a decade.
According to 247 - All time recruitsBYU5 Stars = 24
Stars = 20Utah5 Stars = 04 Stars = 22
Well this statement said it all... "Kalani has worked tremendously hard and
put in a lot of time on issues." So he didn't do that before? Hmm...
You can’t beat the big boys without talentEthos is just a
mirage on the gridiron
Navel VetLOL at how you completely dodged listing the 5-star
recruits that Utah has signed.It obviously hurts having to admit
that USC has signed more 5-star recruits in the last five years (14), than Utah
has signed in their entire history,as well as 59 4-star recruits,
compared to Utah’s 11.Per 247 Sports: 4- and 5-stars
signed since 2014USC - 73Utah - 11Spin it anyway
that helps you sleep at night, but that’s HUGE, compared to Utah’s
4- and 5-Star advantage over BYU.Still waiting for your list of Utah
@Naval VetWho is James Aiono??? Honestly I never heard of him. I
had to look him up and he was a CC transfer who played for the Utes for two
seasons and recorded 12 tackles. Is this the 5 Star recruit you're
bragging about? 247 had him as a 4 star. Looks like he was all
The only ethos that needs to be stressed if that of football fundamentals.
Blocking, tackling, running, throwing and catching.
@Utah033--It's not Tanner Mangum. There's a QB on the current BYU
team who was rated a top ten QB all time coming out of high school yet not good
enough to be a college QB.He's not one of those competing to be
QB this fall.
Rockwell:"If you're going to knit pick other blogger's
'facts', you should at least do a little fact checking of your
own."I DID do my own fact checking! That's how I know that
my facts were correct, and "FACTchequer's" were wrong! And you
know it too! Isn't that why you tried moving the goal posts???
"FACTchequer" specifically stipulated a 10-yr period; not the 5
you'd disingenuously tried moving the goal posts too. And per 247, over
the past decade, Utah signed nineteen 4-star athletes. And since USC's
best single season haul was in 2015 in that publication, with 18 athletes at or
above 4-stars, "FACTchequer" was STILL wrong, as 19 > 18. How
embarrassing for you BOTH! Haha!Bottom line: You had no point.
Edge: Naval Vet
Marked it Down and Ufan:"You falsely imply that Utah has
actually signed several 5-star recruits in the past decade. Name them
First of all, never had I ever stated nor implied that Utah had
"several" 5-star recruits. You just made that up. How frantic and
emotional of you. Straw man much?What I'd said was "Utah
had signed 27 athletes at OR above 4-stars." So that means that if Utah
even signed ONE 5-star recruit, plus 26 4-star kids, then my statement would
have been 100% accurate. And it WAS! Go check Rivals' 2009 recruiting
class for Utah, and count how many stars James Aiono had, and come back here and
tell me. Or do the cougar thing and either run away, or make some desperate
attempt to move the goal posts, like what Rockwell tried doing at 2:37.Second, when "FACTchequer" said, "USC signs more 4 and 5 star
recruits in ONE recruiting class, than the Utes sign in a decade," it was HE
who'd set the bar at 4 AND 5 star recruits. So even if Utah had zero
5-star recruits, it would be irrelevant ANYWAY, as "FACTchequer" wanted
to count the 5-star kids as well.
Gb was a 5-Star recruit & Jt/Se as 4-Stars just barely missed that
designation, themselves.Although we always play vanilla during our
Ooc games, we still doubled-up byu in total yds & led from start-to-finish
& were never seriously threatened....The final margin of 6 was 100% rooted
in our plethora of unforced mental errors via penalties, even after we’d
built our insurmountable 16-0 lead.In fact, the game concluded w/us
taking a knee @ byu’s 15 yard-line, in merciful fashion.p.s.
byu had an insurmountable length of the field to drive to beat us in the end
& went absolutely nowhere in it.During our 7 games &
counting winning streak, byu has held the lead against us for a blazing/whopping
3+ min....LolMidmajor forever.Who’s your Daddy?Go Utes!
I'm not overly concerned about BYU's poor 2017 season in that I
don't have high expectations for their football program. Sure I would like
them to win and beat the Utes as least once a decade, but at what cost? More
willful Honor Code violations and embarrassment for BYU, its alums (including
me) and the LDS Church, ala the Crowton years?Give Bronco his due.
He emphasized that football success was just one of the goals for the team.
What he lacked in passion or warmth was offset by a belief in discipline, hard
work, and adherence to solid underlying principles that BYU students as a whole
believe in.Thanks to some once-a-decade talents in Taysom and
Jamaal, Sitake's debut year was a successful one. In Year Two the pendulum
swung too far and the lack of top talent, combined with ineffective leadership
at both the coach and player level, resulted in a historically bad season. I
expect to see BYU finish in the 6-6 range at this point, good enough to justify
keeping the program as an independent, good enough for everyone to keep their
jobs, not good enough to satisfy the more rabid fans.I am concerned
about Grimes. Does he really understand what's in play at BYU?
I've always enjoyed BYU football as a church member and football fan. This
past season was sad but not surprising to me. What would I know from a distance,
but I hate to say it but I think Coach Sitake was the wrong hire. The guy from
Navy knows how to run a team. The article above sounds exactly like many a CEO I
worked within the business world before retirement. When you start talking
culture you're in trouble. Coach Sitake seems like a wonderfully nice man
and its awful to see him go through this as it is the kids. But football
requires discipline, both personal and team. Leaders can have different styles
of getting it, but you won't win without it. If culture was the problem why
overhaul the staff? And hiring an experienced football guy as OC who has never
been an OC is not much different than hiring Detmer, clearly a football guy with
no OC experience. Seems a shame to me but 2018 will be no better.
The sky is not falling. Lots of big name schools have down years. I can name
Texas, USC, Notre Dame and Michigan and Oregon. I predict B YU will win at
least seven games next year. I read where Auburn won two games the prior year
before playing for the national championship. I admit loosing to U-Mass and
barely beating Portland State was embarresing. Can't wait until next
BYU better deliver this upcoming season of Sitake just may end up being
unemployed. Best of luck to him and his Staff.
Sitake's failure was evidenced in week 1 against LSU. How he allowed his
players to walk 2 by 2, like elementary school kids, on to the field was
humiliating. He is completely out of his league as a coach, administrator and
manager. It's a shame he was not let go. We are going to have a similar
or worse year this year. In my opinion we can't get rid of him soon
enough. I love how he says, he "loves" the coaches he fired and nothing
has changed. Well I can attest that everyone I have fired the relationship
completely changes. It's disrespectful to even pretend it doesn't.
It minimizes the impact of someone loosing their job.
blue & white - "The real proof will be the final record next fall. The
Y will be better . Utah will be status quo."Brave prediction. To
improve, BYU has to get past UMass and Northern Illinois. Utah has to get past
Stanford and USC. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.
Mendenhall and Sataki should be commended for getting the results they have,
with the talent that they've been able to recruit and coach. This is not
1984 and just how is an independent from a small town in Utah supposed to
compete with a P5 program consistently? It's not going to happen so
everyone should just enjoy what they have or petition the school to get back
into a non P5 conference.
The transition to a head coach is a big leap, and the racetrack is full of
former OC/DC that failed to make the jump. When a coach is successful over a
period of time then it's never a coincidence but a culture. BYU should be
able to rebound next week with a bunch of Pac12 teams on the schedule, and only
1 school from a power conference. Its realistic that they win 50% against the
Pac12, which is about the same winning percentage Utah achieves. Its the game
against the Badgers that should keep Sitake up at night. Despite a dominant
record the past 20 years in baseball, basketball, and track and field against
Utah, they have certainly slipped against Utah in Football. 2 more losses to
Utah and Sitake will once again be a defensive coordinator.
I have tremendous respect for Sitake making the tough decision to dismiss
Detmer. Even though I believe that Ty would have eventually been successful,
Kalani didn't have the luxury of waiting several more years for that too
happen. Unfortunately, I think that Detmer was simply too nice and that
didn't work when BYU lacked the player leadership to promote the discipline
needed.---------------As far as the misguided
pronouncement by a certain fan about "margin of victory" being
"critical" in 2004...Per Sagarin 2004: "In
ELO-CHESS, only winning and losing matters; the score margin is of
no consequence, which makes it very "politically correct".
However it is less accurate... The ELO-CHESS will be
utilized by the Bowl Championship Series (BCS)."
Utemythology"In 2004, "margin of victory" for a crucial
variable in BCS rankings."FALSE!"Margin of
Victory" was completely irrelevant in the computer ranking systems used by
@navel vet: "Per Rivals, Utah had signed 27 athletes over the past decade
ranked at or above 4-stars."@Marked it Down: "You falsely
imply that Utah has actually signed several 5-star recruits in the past decade.
Name them - year and ranking systems (Rivals, Scout, and 247 Sports):... *
bueller, bueller, bueller *"Unfortunately, you'l be waiting
a long time.I don't even recall the last 5-star recruit signed
by the Utes.
This article is spot on that the bottom falling out on the program has been the
result of culture devoid of discipline. Sitake's success year one was
Bronco system carryover. Cultures are set by the head/CEO of organization not
their lieutenants. Even though Lamb says things are changing, the problem here
is that Sitake, the CEO, has yet to articulate it or any clear vision or plan or
system about how he's driving the culture. Smells of Crowton 2.0? Why wasn't Sitake the one articulating the plan? Being interview?
Probably because it's not his. Whenever an organization
fires people in mass because of performance, the problem is not the people but
usually based in the organization head not giving them clear direction and
Uteology"One BIG difference, you are not doing victory laps for
margin of "victory". You are doing victory laps for margin
of DEFEAT, for the 7th straight time."A difference yes, but the
"dominance" Utah fans so desperately crave,simply
Silver Stingray"Its going to take a lot more than
"tweaking." He should be fired himself."If it
doesn't work out and BYU has another season like 2017, he probably will be.
On Rivals, BYU's 2018 class is currently ranked #7 nationally.The question is, when BYU goes 5-7 to 7-5 next season will that class be
ranked in the top 60s or top 80s?
Its going to take a lot more than "tweaking." He should be fired
navel vet"Per Rivals, Utah had signed 27 athletes over the past
decade ranked at or above 4-stars."You falsely imply that Utah
has actually signed several 5-star recruits in the past decade.Name
them - year and ranking systems (Rivals, Scout, and 247 Sports):...*
bueller, bueller, bueller *
Yes, Utah is where I am from nothing to do with the Utes.. 100% agree with you.
Road Runner - Cedar City, UTFeb. 12, 2018 12:00 p.m.Uncle RicoMargin of victory is only meaningless to U when it contradicts the
current, self-serving Utah narrative.In 2004, Utah fans boasted
about how the Utes destroyed every team they played, even though the Utes
didn’t play anybody.What happened to a win is a win?-------------One BIG difference, you are not doing victory laps
for margin of "victory". You are doing victory laps for
margin of DEFEAT, for the 7th straight time.While you ignore the
entire 2017 season (i.e., national rankings):Utah #35BYU
#112In 2004, "margin of victory" for a crucial variable in
BCS rankings. Utah became the first and one of only two mid-majors (TCU the
other) to ever finish in the BCS Top 6 to auto qualify.
Utah033"And stars don't matter ? Well in the title game
Saban benched his 5 star qb, put in another 5 star qb, rb and wr all freshman
and how did that turn out for him ?So U agree that the Utes are
simply spinning their wheels because they don't have a prayer of ever
out-recruiting USC - USC out-recruiting Utah 14-0 five-star and
59-11 four-star since 2014 is proof of that - nor UCLA, Stanford,
Oregon and Washington on a consistent basis?
Chris:"If stars didnt matter, you'd see teams like byu full of 2
stars winning national titles. You dont. EVER".Thank you Chris
for showing why Utah will never win a national title or get into the CFP. EVER.
You are consistently beat out in recruiting by the top half of the PAC12, and
that will never change. I'm glad to see you're finally owning that the
team you cheer for will never bring you the hardware you want...so you will
gnash your teeth in a jealous rage over BYU's 84 title and minimize it with
all the other kids on the hill because it will start sinking in that it's
never going to happen for U.
JackRyanSLC"I'm worried Lamb will be the end of Sitaki
[sic]. Lamb has way too much influence in the program with his "self
empowerment" philosophy."Did you even bother reading the
article?Kalani has already recognized the limitations of the
"self-empowerment" philosophy and is moving away from it.btw, his name is spelled SITAKE!
@worf - McAllen, TXMangum was an elite 11 qb his senior year yes,
but no one has ever called him one of the best ever that's a tad of an
overstatement. And stars don't matter ? Well in the title game Saban
benched his 5 star qb, put in another 5 star qb, rb and wr all freshman and how
did that turn out for him ? Stiake has to go a 2 star qb and they cant win
anything might have even lost to Weber State last year. So to say stars
don't matter then why do the same 3 or 4 teams always make the playoffs
because they have the best players who also happened be 5 star players..
navelvel"Per Rivals, Utah had signed 27 athletes over the past
decade ranked at or above 4-stars."If you're going to knit
pick other blogger's "facts", you should at least do a little fact
checking of your own.Per 247 Sports, in the last half decade (since
2014), THE most relevant period:USC has signed 14 five-star and 59
four-star recruitsUtah has signed 0 five-star and 11 four-star recruitsCan you even name 5 five-star recruits, that the Utes have signed, EVER,let alone, 14?Bottom line: 14-0
five-star and 59-11 four-star is a HUGE differential, regardless of how desperately U try to minimize it.
I have to say that I have a tremendous amount of respect for Ed Lamb. I hope
this next year is a happier year for the Cougar faithful.
I'm worried Lamb will be the end of Sitaki. Lamb has way too much
influence in the program with his "self empowerment" philosophy. There
is not a successful program in the country that uses that philosophy. The top
programs know that you have to micromanage college football kids. This attitude
of trusting the kids to do the right thing doesn't work in college
football. It seems a bit arrogant for Lamb and Sitaki to think they can do it
differently than every other successful program...just saying. Sitaki is great,
but Lamb is dangerous with his philosophies...I don't understand why he is
so highly thought of...sure he won a few Big Sky Championships, but they never
did anything in the playoffs.
TroyTownYou don't understand.Utah having a 2-0
four-star advantage over BYU is HUGE.USC having a 5-0 five-star and a 13-2
four-star advantage over Utah is minuscule.
Sounds like Sitske ted to Ben a friend first before being a coach. He road on
the coat tails of Mendenhall's discipline his first year, then got burned
the second. I hope he finds a good mix this year. Same thing happened with
Crowton but he never fixed it.
Stars mean very little!Last year BYU had a four/five star QB who was
considered one of the top ten ever QBs out of high school.Most folks
don't know who is.How did Jake Heaps pan out compared to Steve
Young? Coaches matter!
"Nobody can really tell until the Cougars travel to Tucson and the guy in
stripes flips the coin."You and the rest of us won't be
able to tell until the guy in stripes flips the coin...but the coaches will
know. They will know, because there is nobody remotely as close to the players
as the coaches. It's up to them to have the guys ready to play...at a high
level...and continue that high level and improve on it every game as the season
moves along.Only time will tell for the rest of us. I am optimistic
that we'll see improved results in a dramatic fashion from last season.Go Cougars!
Former Coach"You failed to mention how many points Utah has
outscored BYU in LES in the last three games."Except for the
Heap's meltdown anomaly:Last three at RES: 16-17, 21-24, 19-20
= 5 points total, less than 2 ppgLast two at LES: 13- 20, 13-19 = 13
points total, less than 7 ppgNeutral site: 28-35 = 7 points total, 7
ppgOverall: 25 points total, just over 4 ppgUtah has been
better, but only slightly better.
Using the recruiting class rank as a metric is inaccurate as the numbers are
highly influenced by the number of players signed. For instance in 2012 BYU
signed 15 while Utah signed 27. This made BYU's class rank 71 and
Utah's 38.A better way to tell the difference is to take the
average of all player ratings during a period of time. For this I chose the
past 8 years.Utah 84.64BYU 81.73Utah has a better
average than BYU, although the gap isn't large. Bronco 81.4Kalani 82.29Kalani is doing better than Bronco with recruiting.
Time will tell if his recruits perform better the current Bronco's recruits
the past two years. As of note -- Grimes was ranked in the top 10
recruits in 2018. Although this was for his work at LSU, I believe his
influence and skill will land better recruits going forward for BYU.
FACTchequer:"USC signs more 4 and 5 star recruits in ONE
recruiting class, than the Utes sign in a decade."You REALLY
ought to do some "fact checking" if you're going to call yourself
"FACTchequer". Per Rivals, Utah had signed 27 athletes over the past
decade ranked at or above 4-stars. USC's top class for 4-5 star athletes
was last week. And that was 18 -- aka, 33.3% FEWER than what the Utes signed
"in a decade", and THUS......you were WRONG! How
embarrassing for you! Cue the cougar backpedal..."The truth is, Utah fans are forced to obsess about their minor recruiting
advantage over BYU, because it’s too painful for them to have to admit
that the Utes will NEVER be able to out recruit the big boys of the PAC 12 -
USC, UCLA, Stanford, Oregon and Washington - over a sustained period."Not so little bro! The "TRUTH" is, it's you COUGAR fans
who are forced to obsess about the big boys of the Pac-12 -- i.e. USC, UCLA,
Stanford, Oregon, and Washington -- because THEY'RE the only programs who
can do what you guys cannot! Beat Utah -- both on the field, and in the
recruiting wars.Bandwagon much?How pathetic.Midmajors forever.
I feel for Sitake. With this Indie model, he being asked to make bricks with no
straw. I can only hope that the guys at BYU who wear ties and sit in leather
chairs are seriously considering trash-canning this Indie mess. It was a
knee-jerk reaction to Utah's entrance to the Pac-12, and will not benefit
BYU in the long term. Hopefully Sitake and his experienced coaches can coach up
this crew and create a new culture and team identity. In the meantime, the BYU
brass needs to stop this Indie charade and get real.
Chris BI'll take USC's 4- and 5-star recruits over
Utah's 2- and 3-star recruits anyday.2018:#4 USC - 5*(4),
4*(13)#34 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(2)2017:#4 USC - 5*(2),
4*(12)#33 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(3)2016:#10 USC - 5*(2),
4*(12)#37 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(3)2015:#2 USC - 5*(4),
4*(14)#34 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(2)2014:#10 USC - 5*(2),
4*(8)#66 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(1)Last five recruiting classes#6 USC - 5*(14), 4*(59)#41 Utah - 5*(0), 4*(11)USC's
recruiting was off a little when Utah first joined the PAC 12, but it's
recovered nicely.USC signed more 4* recruits in 2018, than Utah has
signed in the last 5 years combined.Even more troubling for U is USC
has signed more 5* recruits in the last 5 years, than Utah has signed in their
entire history.Sorry, little red engine that couldn't, but your
window of opportunity is closed.Let the guessing, spinning, cherry
picking and half truths from the hill begin...
@Road Runner,This is funny, usually when teams are close, they
split. If they are somewhat close, usually the lesser team wins occasionally.
For example, Auburn has beaten Alabama twice in the past 7 years. Utah has won
7 in a row. Yes, they have been close as you point out. You failed to mention
how many points Utah has outscored BYU in LES in the last three games. Also,
you might want to reconsider your statement regarding recruiting. I understand
you are making a point about star ranking, but if USC's has a massive
recruiting advantage, they finished ranked 4th on 247 while Utah was 34th, 30
spots difference. BYU finished ranked 77th, 43 spots lower than Utah. If 30
spots is massive, 43 spots cannot be minor.
Shorter version: Sitake is way in over his head. As a BYU fan, the
next couple of years are going to be tough.
Problems with the culture on the football team were identified last season by a
number of fans. Can that be turned around in one season? With all the new
coaches, I think it can be. Time to bring on "Major Payne".
As for the article, kudos to Mr Harmon (I'm not usually a fan of his
writing) for staying objective and not turning this into a feel good story.
Many of the Y fans are disappointed Detmer was let go but he is an example of a
more friendly less disciplined coach that was inherent in the previous Y
staff.As for the posters, yes stars do matter. Not every 5 star kid
makes the NFL and few 2 star kids turn into all pros but in general there is a
reasonable correlation between the star rating and the success of the player.Best part about the comments is the Y fans talking about how Utah and
BYU are closely matched because of the final scores. Well, when one team always
wins, despite the close scores, the teams really aren't that closely
I am a '78 BYU grad and lifelong Californian. And for years I've
gotten a kick out of how much Utah fans revel in taking pot shots at the Cougs,
and vice-versa. I will add that although this is not a one way street, it seems
the traffic on the Ute side is heavier. Nov 24. Should be a
humdinger. By then both teams will have defined themselves, most likely. It is
obvious what Coach Sitake is doing now to right the ship, per Coach Lamb's
observations and comments. From where I sit, it seems obvious that the caliber
of players Coach Kyle recruits and puts on the field is higher than BYU's.
Sorry guys, but that's how I see it. Will that change, or can we win
anyway? Hey, that's why we have horse races. Go Cougs.
All these negative commenters are just blowing in the wind. The real proof will
be the final record next fall. The changes look positive so far. One thing I
think is the Y will be better . Utah on the other hand will be status quo. No
closer to a PAC 12 S. Championship but a Lot of hype we have a chance.
Road RunnerUSC signs more 4 and 5 star recruits in ONE recruiting
class, than the Utes sign in a decade.The truth is, Utah fans are
forced to obsess about their minor recruiting advantage over BYU, because
it’s too painful for them to have to admit that the Utes will NEVER be
able to out recruit the big boys of the PAC 12 - USC, UCLA, Stanford, Oregon and
Washington - over a sustained period.
BYU is a bad bad bad team until they prove differently.
On 11/28/17 Monson wrote an article "What does BYU really want to be?"
Failsafe23 made a comment listing 11 reasons why BYU's recruiting is down.
This article does not support BYU addressing very many of those 11 reasons. For
example: #3 Not being in a conference and #5 losing. Despite the AD's
assurance that independence has been better than any alternative other than a
P-5 conference. Perhaps true financially but recruiting effect completely false
IMO. (Do you believe in coincidence? - Only U Mass recruiting had decline more
the past two years than BYU's according to a study by SBNation.
Didn't U Mass go independent just a few years ago?) #5 - As a BYU fan,
Duckhunter, once said to Utah "Dumb down your schedule". Next year is
set and could be disastrous. BYU has 6 games scheduled against very good teams.
Maybe in future years BYU should "Dumb down their schedule as in the past
to where they have 2-3 good teams and the rest games that are "winnable"
for BYU. (Most Ute fans would be happy to help - perhaps scheduling a BYU vs
Utah game once every 10 years.)
Chrispy Remind us how many 4- and 5-Star recruitsUSC, Utah and
BYU have signed during the last 5 recruiting classes, combined,and
then explain why you think that USC’s massive recruiting advantage versus
Utah is “insignificant”,while Utah’s minor
recruiting advantage versus BYU is “significant”.btw, if
you’re forced to include many “other” factors, then
you’re admitting that “stars” aren’t nearly as important
as you claim.
I had heard rumors from inside sources that practices were not intense like they
had been during the Mendenhall era. This seems to be an admission of that.
Teams with lesser "talent" can and do beat teams with greater talent in
every sport. The missing ingredient is the work ethic. It does need to return.
Last year it just seemed like the further we got into almost every game, the
more the opposing defenses stifled the offense. I believe that eventually Detmer
(one of my heroes) would have/could have figured this out and adjusted, but at
the D1 level you don't have that luxury. Good luck, Coach Grimes. And yes,
it wouldn't have taken much of an offensive uptick to beat the "Power
This thread reminds me of this article and of the BYU Cougars: too much talk.
Uncle RicoMargin of victory is only meaningless to U when it
contradicts the current, self-serving Utah narrative.In 2004, Utah
fans boasted about how the Utes destroyed every team they played, even though
the Utes didn’t play anybody.What happened to a win is a
win?One 6-point win may not be a big deal against a single opponent,
but when you’ve failed to beat that same opponent by more than a touchdown
6 of the last 7 games, it’s quite obvious that there’s not much
separation between the two programs.Utah has only outscored BYU by
FIVE points, TOTAL, in the last three games played at RES, COMBINED.
LOL at deep blue using the "stars aren't everything"You
are rightNeither is having a good QB, good running backs, fast
players, good coaches, lifting weights, going to practice, watching film,
scoring lots of pointsBut are those VERY important? Yep, so is
talent level. And the star system overwhelmingly accurately indicates the
overall talent(or in byu's case lack thereof) level of a teamBut good luck with those nice 2 star choir boys doing something! You havent
done anything in the last decade with that approach, but maybe next year
Uncle, your comment might be more meaningful if you could share with us the
"star" average for the Browns and the Steelers, since my comment was a
response to the overwhelmingly superior talent Utah has that produced a marginal
victory over the talentless Cougars. In other words, as your post confirms,
your uties post about talent level is really irrelevant, so get over it.
DeepBlueI'd take 3-4 star kids who work hard and want to learn
over 2 star choir boys who are nice kids anyday.If stars didnt
matter, you'd see teams like byu full of 2 stars winning national titles.
You dont. EVER.byu's average star recruiting class for 2018 is
2.1 Tell me the last time a team won a football national title with
such a horribly low class.This ought to be good.
Sooner, never said BYU was "as good" as Utah. Heck, they aren't
even as good as 145 programs in the country. Sayin, Utah, even with their
overwhelmingly exceptional talent is not much better. In other words they stink
too . Two totally different concepts.
IMO, the talent was there, but too many players struggled with the honor code,
and coaches were too soft.Coaches matter! Had Alabama coaches been
BYU coaches,---a 4-9 record wouldn't have happened. IMO, Sitake
has corrected the ship.
If power ranking and the number of stars a recruit has were the only important
determinants, you wouldn't need to play the game and one could let
analytics decide the winner. Coaching football is difficult and coaching young
men is more so. Sitake is learning that.
Sanefan - Wellsville, UTFeb. 12, 2018 10:56 a.m.And to think this
BYU team that has no talent lost to the mighty PAC 12 Utes by a measly 6 points.
Hmmm, interesting. Very, Very interesting.--------------It was
the Utah qbs first career start and Utah OC first game against a FBS opponent,
and it was on the road. Most teams would be happy with 6 point win. Margin of victory means nothing - a win is a win.The 0-16 Browns
lost to the playoff Steelers twice this season, but only by 3 and 4 points, so
the Browns must be almost as good, right?Wins and losses matter.
@ChrisI love that you do research on BYU so we fans don't have
to. Thanks for your service sir.
Sanefan - Wellsville, UT "And to think this BYU team that has no talent
lost to the mighty PAC 12 Utes by a measly 6 points."You also lost to
UMass by a measly 6 points.Do you also comment on sports articles in
the Boston newspapers?"Hey UMass -- we were almost as good as
SanefanDid you even bother reading the article, or are you just
spouting off?-----------------Chris BI'll take a team full of eager to learn, play hard on every down, walkons
and 2-stars,any day,over a team full of know it all,
primadonna 4-stars.If talent and star ratings alone were the
determining factors,Utah would NEVER beat USC again.
And to think this BYU team that has no talent lost to the mighty PAC 12 Utes by
a measly 6 points. Hmmm, interesting. Very, Very interesting.
Well it looks like the "good times approach"didn't lead to very
good results. In fact, they were horrible. There is a huge lesson to be
learned; structure and discipline lead to success. Every successful business
person knows this. Sitaki seemed to care more about the players liking him and
the coaching staff than being a successful coach. It's akin to a parent
wanting to be their child's friend rather than parenting them. Advice to
Sitaki, these kids have friends, they need a coach who can instill structure,
discipline and respect.
What he needed to tweak was the talent level. And he didn’t. BYU’s
recruiting class was ranked lower than the university of North Texas. LOL! Byu has terrible players and kalani has done nothing to improve that in
his 3 years. I called it from day one, the “kalani
effect” was smoke and mirrors, no substance