In our opinion: The country must not miss a chance to discuss what leads to abuse

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  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 11:31 a.m.

    @prag
    RE" 2bits your defense of Trump"..
    ---
    Didn't defend Trump. I spread the blame around.

    All accusations we are talking about happened before Trump said anything... kinda hard to blame the incidents on Trump statements made years after the abuse occurred. Isn't it?

    The sexual abuse we are talking about happened when Obama was our example. But Ds blame someone who came later? And blame statements made years after the abuse?

    ==

    RE: "Obama was never accused of sexual assault"....
    ---
    Didn't say he was.

    I said the abuse we are talking about happened before Trump said anything. So blaming his words for abuse that happened when Obama was in office... is lame.

    Women were afraid to report abuse when Obama was President. They aren't today. That's progress, isn't it? Progress made when Trump was President (not Obama)

    ==

    RE: "Secondly, neither man is "responsible" for the actions of others around them"...
    ---
    So why are Ds blaming Trump for sexual abuse by others... going on when Obama was President?

    Why do Ds blame Trump for Rob Porter's actions (and others)?

    Trump's statements you point out had no causual affect on these cases. They happened before he said anything.

  • Fred44 Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 13, 2018 7:26 a.m.

    Some of you are confused about how America works today. If it is good thank Donald Trump. If it is bad blame Hillary Clinton. If it is really bad blame Barrack Obama and Hillary Clinton.

    When Trump says something really stupid he was just joking and you need to get a sense of humor. Please remember also he is not racist or sexist, he believes in due process.

    If he can't use the above rules to explain, then it's Fake News.

    Hopefully this will help all you liberals understand the greatness of the President.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 7:26 a.m.

    The abuser is typically male and narcissistic according to Sam Vaknin (see on Youtube). The syndrome is well defined but no one knows what makes an abuser. Often they are professional and high performers. They are not necessarily low lifes. Often one cannot spot them outside of the domicile. Your suggestion that we must find out what leads to abuse does not respect the still as yet unknown origins of the abuser.

  • Fullypresent Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:17 p.m.

    Women and men can be victims of domestic violence. The causes are many. At the end of the day it doesn't matter if it is a woman or a man, Democrat or Republican, Mormon or Non-Mormon, Politician or non-politician, or what race they are. The bottom line is it is wrong. It is a serious problem in our society that has to be addressed wherever it occurs.

  • pragmatistferlife Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 6:21 p.m.

    2bits your defense of Trump first of all makes no sense but mostly is a blind submission to ideology over morals.

    The clear difference between Trump and Obama is first of all Obama was never..never accused of sexual assault or cavorting with prostitutes. Obama never bragged about sexual assault as Trump did.

    Secondly, neither man is "responsible" for the actions of others around them, but they are accountable for their reaction to those actions. Trump has consistently..no always taken the side of the male perpetrator and secondly never even given any consideration for the female victim.

    Can you show me one occurrence of domestic abuse during the Obama years that he handled poorly?

    Read, 1 Aggies post, to find out what Obama did to protect women who have suffered domestic violence.

    Support of Trumps reaction to domestic abuse is unthinkable.

    If you want to support a stupid tax law that will balloon the deficit drive up inflation, and potentially cause another recession, have at it, but not this.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 6:04 p.m.

    Maybe the abuser is typically female, because she can get away with it and will have lots of sympathy and support and people will believe it is somehow the fault of her husband, certainly if she claims that to be the case.

    Likely the number of abuse cases are not male because a man will not be taken seriously. Misandry is a sad fact of modern society.

  • Daedalus, Stephen ARVADA, CO
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:30 p.m.

    Porter's alleged abuse is not some rare phenomenon that will disappear if we do not study it immediately. Domestic abuse is unfortunately common, and DN's reporting provides better material for answering "hard questions" about root causes.

    The Porter situation -should- be the basis of a different "uncomfortable conversation" which is why DN's precision in tiptoeing around the obvious is notable.

    Porter lacked permanent clearance required for his level of access to POTUS and sensitive information. John Kelly, the Chief of Staff everyone expected would impose operational rigor and discipline to the Trump WH, has know the reason why for months: past police reports of Porter's alleged abuse made him vulnerable to blackmail by our enemies.

    But Kelly -- the retired Marine general -- did nothing.

    Nothing.

    Kelly's condoning Porter's alleged domestic violence is disturbing, but all too common.

    But a 'Marine' who now openly shies away from protecting America?

    That is a rarity. It suggests a rot spreading among and degrading the people and institutions upon which American democracy depends.

    How and why that is should be the topic of an "uncomfortable conversation".

    Now.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:11 p.m.

    "What did President Obama do to expose and end the abuse and protect women?"

    (for one, he didn't brag about grabbing women without consent)

    September 30, 2015":
    "NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and the laws of the United States, do hereby proclaim October 2015 as National Domestic Violence Awareness Month. I call on all Americans to speak out against domestic violence and support local efforts to assist victims of these crimes in finding the help and healing they need."

    Obama appointed more women to cabinet level positions than any other president.

    Additionally, Congress reauthorized the 1994 Violence Against Women Act in 2013 (note: UT Senators/Reps voted against re-authorization).

  • Desert Suburbanite Mesa, AZ
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:54 p.m.

    There is one issue about the Porter case that casts a shadow over the motivation of the ex-wive's actions. If this was so important that they needed to give interviews to the foreign press, why didn't they go public when he worked for Senator Hatch, Senator Lee, or Senator Portman? Shouldn't he have been publicly shamed into an unemployable status years ago? Or was it OK for someone accused of serial spousal abuse to work for a senator but not the President? Or, are they just political liberals who saw a chance to stick it to a president that they don't like by getting their 15 minutes of fame over something that they put behind themselves years ago? If the first is true, that is a gigantic double standard. If the second, then they are as despicable as the husband who (allegedly) hit them.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 1:33 p.m.

    @LOU Montana - 2:57
    RE: "Till republicans take a stand against Trump they will have no credibility"...
    ---
    OK. Let's play your partisan games. But more broadly (not just Trump).

    Harvey Weinstien's abuse of young actresses occurred when Obama was President (no Trump).

    Shame Obama? No... Just Trump.
    For stuff that happened when Trump wasn't even in politics, and Obama was President.

    Trump wasn't on the scene when most of this abuse we hear about in the news today happened. Obama was President. What did President Obama do to expose and end the abuse and protect women?

    There's been more progress on this in Trump's first year than in Obama's 8.

    New TV anchors are now women. More women in politics. More women in board rooms (men fired).

    Matt Lower, Harvey Weinstein, Woody Allen, Rob Porter, John Conyers, Al Franken... all that went on when Obama was President, but women didn't report it.

    So blame Trump abuse that happened when Obama was President?

    If Democrats take no stand against Obama (who did nothing when the abuse occurred and women were afraid to report it)... and against Bill Clinton's sexual abuse of women while he was President... they have no credibility.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:47 p.m.

    anti-liar - Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 4:10 p.m.
    @one old man -

    "Really? Then why did he brag about doing it?"

    No; he did not brag about committing sexual abuse. Again, that is a lie.

    Honest people recognize that of course he was referring to welcome contact -- that's right, welcome, even if there wasnt a specific, verbal invitation. And, yes, many stars find themselves extraordinarily "welcome."
    =========
    Not only did he brag about it -- in recorded words we've all had a chance to hear, he then threatened the women he had abused with lawsuits, called them liars (after having admitted he had done it), and tried to abuse them further with sleazy insults.

    If you are really an "anti-liar," you certainly don't seem very good at recognizing a lie when you see or hear some that are particularly egregious.

    But it's very apparent that anyone who supports trump is either unable to recognize outright lies or has chosen to try to ignore them.

    Isn't that, in itself, dishonest?

  • James E Tooele, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:32 p.m.

    Impartial7 - I've been looking into what you said and I have some questions:

    *First, there's the police reports. -Where? What are you referring to? The only report I could find was when he allegedly punched a window.
    *Second, there's court ordered restraining orders (issued by a judge). - Which are given with very little cause during divorce proceedings.
    *And, finally there are sworn statements to FBI agents. - Still accusations, not evidence.
    *I think we all have a pretty good idea what happened. - Why would you think that with only accusations and no conclusion or rebuttal?
    *But, you won't hear about it on FOX News - Proves my point about this being used for politics.

    Have we Progressed beyond the need for facts in today's America? Or is guilt determined by the accuser's victim status?

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:20 p.m.

    To "LOU Montana" do you have the same attitude towards the Democrats? You do realize that Hillary Clinton was known to be verbally abusive to the people she worked with, and destroyed the lives of women sexually abused by her husband.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:13 p.m.

    And Trump calls the abused women "liars". You think you will see any effort from Trump or the Republicans in addressing this issue in any meaningful way? Don't be deluded. It's not that hard to figure out where they really stand.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:36 a.m.

    @unrepentant
    RE: "Call me stupid if you will, but trump has done more to harm humankind on this planet than any president ever. I am ashamed to be called an American due to the damage to the world he is causing"...
    ---
    A little over the top, but not stupid.

    Explain what harm Trump did to humankind. I mean besides preventing Hillary Clinton from becoming President.

    Explain what damage Trump did to the world.

    Did you notice North and South Korea competing together at the Olympics? And agreeing to talks after the Olympics?

    If that happened when Obama was President, you would be praising him and his diplomatic breakthrough. But it didn't. It happened when Trump was President.

    ISIS is pretty much gone. They were growing when Obama was President.

    How did Trump ruin your world?

    ==

    RE: "This is the clear and present danger to our country"...
    ---
    Over the top.

    If that were true (it's not)... you would be justified in removing Trump, militarily if needed. And I would be with you.

    But it's a bogus accusation.

    That's just partisan blather.

    ==

    Don't know how abuse became R vs D.

    Looks like Lou and Marxist got us off on the wrong foot and we've never got back to the topic.

  • Mayfair Logan, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 11:33 a.m.

    From PBS Nova program last night:

    "Jim [Chatters] has studied around two dozen of the oldest skeletons found...
    "There are a lot of head injuries in the front of the head....we'll see a lot a lot of violence between the males, but we also see some of that violence transferred over to the females."
    "Jim is convinced that extreme male aggression was common in these ancient hunter-gatherer populations."

    Looks like violence and abuse has always been evident, even from hunter-gatherer days.

  • Yuge Opportunity Here Mapleton, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 10:01 a.m.

    It is clear we have not done enough. And time does not seem to have healed the afflicted.

    There was a protective order. And, I presume, criminal charges filed, tried and adjudicated.

    And a divorce, with alimony and/or settlement amount.

    And here we are.

    There is a veterinary procedure which sometimes helps with aggressive dogs. I suspect that in the climate of MeToo we have come to that.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 11, 2018 6:56 p.m.

    @Vermonter
    "because we simply don’t have a lot of reliable statistics prior to 1960 (and even after 1960, one could make a reasonable argument the statistics still are suspect)."

    Laws criminalizing spousal rape didn't exist in the US until the 1970s (the last states didn't have statutes on it until the early 90s). One issue with the stats is whether they measure the same thing over time.

    "Many young men are now deciding that relationships with women are simply too fraught with a lot of downside risk"

    That doesn't seem like it'd jive well with the idea that things are more open to abuse these days.

    @James E
    "And why are we assuming this guy is guilty after these ladies waited so long"

    They didn't wait so long. There are long ago police reports about this guy from them. He had so much on his record he couldn't pass a background check for his position but someone just sorta waived that requirement.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Feb. 11, 2018 6:55 a.m.

    @ Vermonter

    Maybe my definition of hook-up culture is different than yours - or mistaken - but to me it isn't an alternative to a long-term relationship. It's what some do before they're ready for one. So to me, bringing marriage into this arena is a non sequitur.

    Re: your idea of how our younger generations are defining marriage: The research doesn't reflect this. It suggests that divorce has had a strong impact on their perspective of the institution. I do suspect that they might offer your definition if asked to define marriage pre-1960's.

    "Your assertion that 'domestic abuse' only happens in established relationships..."

    Perhaps I wasn't clear. I was attempting to show again that hook-up culture doesn't belong in this conversation because, by definition, abuse that happens within its confines isn't "domestic abuse." It's called assault or something else. Equally harmful and unacceptable, yes, but not "domestic abuse." That term is used only for abuse that takes place within established relationships.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Feb. 11, 2018 6:00 a.m.

    It is clear that trump does not understand the depth of the problem of spousal abuse. And his latest tweet proves that. I would say I am shocked, but that would be a lie. This presidency is filled with outrageous acts and words.

    Obviously, nothing anyone can say, or no misdeed the president could do, would ever convince ardent trump fans that he is fundamentally unfit to be in high office. There is no lie too egregious, no false claim to bizarre and no support/comfort to abusers and racists that can shake their support for this man.

    This is the clear and present danger to our country. A cult of personality surrounds trump, not unlike that which surrounds almost any common autocrat on the planet. This cult kills democracy.

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Feb. 10, 2018 11:08 p.m.

    @GingerMarshall.
    Fair points. I respect your opinion and your desire to do what you can to eliminate abuse as much as possible. I hope I can follow your example more closely.

    We may quibble about root causes. But I respect your sincerity and wish you well.

    Thanks for discussing.

  • GingerMarshall Brooklyn, OH
    Feb. 10, 2018 10:06 p.m.

    @Vermonter: "I appreciate your opinion and different perspective."


    Thank you for the dialogue.

    I think it would be hard to "prove" abuse statistics from 50+ years ago (pre-sexual revolution) and we therefore end up with anecdotal evidence gleaned from personal stories. Not conclusive, but informative.

    I do not think the abuse rate is lower - it is a societal problem - I think the rates are the same. What I think has increased is willingness to talk about it, to report it, to address it.

    Abuse is caused by many factors, I think, but underlying it is anger, selfishness, and a belief that women (and sometimes children) are property to be controlled.

    As far as young men avoiding relationships... they are catching up with women, who discovered the 'downside risk' a while back. A dating survey showed that men are afraid women will reject them, or will get fat. Women are afraid the guy will be physically abusive or will kill her.

    I've had three students in the last year being stalked and threatened by ex-partners, including one who had spent weeks in ICU and months in recovery after he ex assaulted her.

    



  • John Jackson Sandy, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 8:03 p.m.

    "The country must get comfortable having uncomfortable conversations on a host of issues from domestic abuse to opioid addiction so real change can be made."
    Good editorial. I especially like the above quote.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 4:58 p.m.

    What causes men or women to become angry? - This is a great question.

    Some of the things that make people angry, in domestic situations, are:

    Infidelity or adultery, sometimes repeatedly, in your partner.

    False and unreasonable accusations of such.

    Being constantly needled and unfairly accused, by a spouse, and rarely if ever respected or appreciated.

    Always being presented as the cause of every problem or imagined / invented problem.

    Abusive children and spouses with an overweening sense of entitlement.

    A cruel and manipulative, sociopathic partner or child.

    Unremitting selfishness when it is always, or nearly so, from the same member of the family.

    Deliberate, or thoughtless, deprivation of necessary things such as sleep and rest, love, consideration, kindness, basic gratitude and courtesy.

    Constant drama.

    Unremitting, undeserved, criticisms.

    After this though, we need to be talking about "alleged" abusers and "alleged" victims.

    There are so many who seem unable or unwilling to grasp that an accusation is just that. Nobody should be automatically believed or disbelieved.

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 4:10 p.m.

    @one old man -

    "Really? Then why did he brag about doing it?"

    No; he did not brag about committing sexual abuse. Again, that is a lie.

    Honest people recognize that of course he was referring to welcome contact -- that's right, welcome, even if there wasnt a specific, verbal invitation. And, yes, many stars find themselves extraordinarily "welcome."

    @unrepentant progressive -

    "Well, if empowering ethno-Nationalists and a goodly number of racists, debasing our common language, giving jobs to people with questionable ties to hostile governments and financial ties to the parties they are supposed to regulate, hiring those who can't get security clearances, tearing apart global alliances, treaties and agreements, busting the national budget, talking up nuclear annihilation, and with a general disregard for truth..."

    All distortions and lies.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Feb. 10, 2018 4:09 p.m.

    It is asked, what is the cause for domestic abuse. There is no single main cause, and the sexual revolution is not implicated. Rather one person feels the need to control and dominate their partner.

    Abusers seem to possess low self esteem, exhibit pronouned jealous reactions and seem unable to control their anger and rages. There are those in fundamentalist sects who believe they have the right and duty to control their spouse since women aren't equal. And sometimes it is learned family behavior from their parents.

    None of this has to do with the changes in our society that emancipated women 50 years or so ago, gave them the vote, allowed birth control, freedom to divorce or access to pregnancy termination. It is about power and control. It is a pathology!

    As to young men lacking the understanding or empathy to treat women as equals and deserving respect. Well, that is best taught at home. But we do have law protecting women from abuse, domination and violence. I don't know what could be wrong with that, and young men have to learn to cope with a new world.

    'Bout time.

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Feb. 10, 2018 3:28 p.m.

    @Karen R.
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

    Since the hookup culture is, as you assert, now being seen as an expression of sexual freedom/equality by many in American society, is marriage then viewed as the opposite of hooking up, or is it just a different choice like choice of color, or flavor of milkshake?

    I would submit that many (and a lot of millennials and younger) are being taught by Hollywood, the media, public schools, and in many cases their own parents, to define marriage as an expression of male dominance and repression of women.

    Your assertion that “domestic abuse” only happens in established relationships is interesting. Perhaps I’m reading too much into your comments. But is abuse in hookup relationships any less hurtful? If so, perhaps you have stumbled on a way to eliminate “domestic abuse”—at least on a statistical basis.

    Your perspective is something I had not fully considered.

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Feb. 10, 2018 1:45 p.m.

    @GingerMarshall.
    I appreciate your opinion and different perspective.

    My opinion is based on the experience of the predator who had vast new opportunities opened to him with the sexual revolution and modern hookup culture. Your opinion is based on your experience talking to several older women who were abused. I don’t dispute the facts you cite. I only dispute the notion that abuse is at the same or lower rate compared to pre-1960.

    But assuming you are right, what then is the principal cause of abuse? The Me Too movement is having some unintended long-term consequences too. Many young men are now deciding that relationships with women are simply too fraught with a lot of downside risk. They are deciding now that a relationship is just not worth the hassle. Is there a path forward that can promote healthy man-woman relationships? Or are we doomed to slow-motion extinction? I am interested in what you think.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 1:43 p.m.

    @James E;
    " Why can't we be honest and say we don't know what happened?"

    Well, let's see. First, there's the police reports. Second, there's court ordered restraining orders (issued by a judge). And, finally there are sworn statements to FBI agents. I think we all have a pretty good idea what happened. But, you won't hear about it on FOX News.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Feb. 10, 2018 1:20 p.m.

    @ Vermonter

    "When hookups become societies’ norm, it is an ideal environment for predators and abusers."

    Hook-up culture is an expression of sexual freedom/equality. You and I may have issues with treating sex this casually, but being equally empowered doesn't enable abuse. Ideal environments for abuse are those in which would-be abusers have unquestioned or primary authority; they're likely to be believed over those they would abuse; and they run the show, i.e., the abused have little power/influence in the system. This describes pre-1960's America, not today. Today Mr. Porter is out on his ear.

    You know what would be interesting to know: if being a domestic abuser was even considered problematic for security reasons pre-1960's. I mean, if it can't cost you your career or even much of a loss of reputation, what use is it for blackmail?

    Finally, domestic abuse wouldn't even exist in a purely hook-up culture as domestic abuse is defined as violence occurring within an established relationship. Another reason I'm not sure your reasoning logically follows.

  • James E Tooele, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 12:25 p.m.

    Fun to read this article and then read the comments full of politics. Since when was domestic violence a political thing? And why are we assuming this guy is guilty after these ladies waited so long and we've heard nothing of his side of the story?

    Normally I'd say if two people come forward to accuse it's not looking good but in today's political environment there are other things to consider. And watching how fast the media jumped on this when Obama could support all sorts of crazy things only reinforces my suspicions. But if you want to wait to see facts you're siding with the abusers. That reeks of agenda-driven social engineering. Why can't we be honest and say we don't know what happened?

  • GingerMarshall Brooklyn, OH
    Feb. 10, 2018 10:38 a.m.

    @Vermonter: "You are right. Domestic abuse wasn’t invented with the sexual revolution of the 60s. But it was likely rapidly accelerated."

    I disagree because I sit and listen. I listen to the old women, who talk about the reality of their lives. Read their stories - often transcribed from oral history projects rather than in fancy books.

    Abuse was part of the accept background, like racism. It wasn't questioned, mostly wasn't acknowledged. But women talked and comforted each other, tended their wounds, offered protection when they could.

    Dismissing it, based on your experience, does not mean it did not happen.

    I am transgender. As I moved, quietly, into women's space I began hearing, seeing, and experiencing things to which I was totally oblivious while living in male space.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 9:53 a.m.

    "Hard questions must be asked, including why abuse is happening in the first place."

    According to psychologist Sam Vaknin who understands the abuser profile very well, what makes an abuser is unknown. They are in essence "a force of nature." And they don't reform without very extensive counseling. Most don't reform.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 8:52 a.m.

    anti-liar - Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 12:12 a.m.
    @LOU Montana

    "[Trump's] sexual abuse of women"

    That is a LIE.

    ========

    Really? Then why did he brag about doing it? Why did he tell us "you can do anything if you're a star?"

    If your claim is true, then that means trump was lying (again).

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Feb. 10, 2018 7:52 a.m.

    @Karen R. & Others.
    You are right. Domestic abuse wasn’t invented with the sexual revolution of the 60s. But it was likely rapidly accelerated. I say likely, because we simply don’t have a lot of reliable statistics prior to 1960 (and even after 1960, one could make a reasonable argument the statistics still are suspect).

    The hookup culture and the sexual revolution caused a statistical explosion in casual one-time sex with between people who have just met within the last 24 hours. When hookups become societies’ norm, it is an ideal environment for predators and abusers. Old-fashioned social rules meant hookups were out of the question for all but the lowest rung of the moral ladder.

    While pre-1960s rules gave some abusing men more power, it also taught the concept of being “ladies”and “gentlemen” where virtue before marriage was at least publicly expected and men were expected to protect women from physical harm and abuse, at least publicly.

    Sorry. Though the stats may be inconclusive, it is hard for me to imagine that there was less domestic abuse after the 1960s.

    As always I appreciate your comments that make me think and learn.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Feb. 10, 2018 6:30 a.m.

    There are those who think that trump has "done more for mankind than any politician in Washington".

    Well, if empowering ethno-Nationalists and a goodly number of racists, debasing our common language, giving jobs to people with questionable ties to hostile governments and financial ties to the parties they are supposed to regulate, hiring those who can't get security clearances, tearing apart global alliances, treaties and agreements, busting the national budget, talking up nuclear annihilation, and with a general disregard for truth does more for mankind than whatever, then I am for those who do little.

    Call me stupid if you will, but trump has done more to harm humankind on this planet than any president ever. I am ashamed to be called an American due to the damage to the world he is causing and the coarseness of his speech and behaviors. And just think what the youth of the country now thinks is acceptable. Okay to abuse, grab the whatever, lie, cheat and double deal.

  • silo Sandy, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 12:33 a.m.

    @worf
    "you're obsessed and led by false information."
    "Trump has done more for mankind than any politician in Washington"

    It's interesting that you can type both of these statements in a single comment and not see the hypocrisy in them.

    Trump has done more for Trump than any politician in Washington, but Trump's contributions to mankind are still a no show

  • TMR Los Angeles, CA
    Feb. 10, 2018 12:26 a.m.

    I really wanted to cheer for this op-ed when I read the headline, but the content has left me sad that the D-News, indeed, has “missed a chance.” A little too much mustard on the “hook-up culture” unfortunately distracts from an opportunity for a thoughtful piece. After all, Mr. Porter’s background has all the earmarks of an anti-hook-up lifestyle, one that is marked by comportment and moral integrity; yet, there was something amiss. Perhaps domestic abuse of any sort has its roots in something that is more complicated and more troubling than just a moral failing. This is what I had hoped the D-News would have concluded.

  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 12:12 a.m.

    @LOU Montana

    "[Trump's] sexual abuse of women"

    That is a LIE.

  • worf McAllen, TX
    Feb. 9, 2018 7:31 p.m.

    @LOU--you're obsessed and led by false information. Trump has done more for mankind than any politician in Washington. Unfortunately you haven't done the research and continue to bark up the wrong tree.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Feb. 9, 2018 7:19 p.m.

    IMO, this editorial is a missed chance to take the subject seriously.

    Domestic abuse did not originate with "hook up culture" or the sexual revolution. It just wasn't publicly discussed before.

    And conformity, rigid rules about sex, and strict gender roles didn't protect women from abuse. They protected the abusers.

    The sexual revolution and women's equality are what got us here. They're responsible for the #MeToo movement. And the Porter case shows that its beneficial impact isn't limited to sexual harassment and abuse in the workplace.

    So I think the implied premise that we should return "to the good old days" is a bust. They weren't good. Not for a lot of women like my aunts who endured it in silence and shame. No, #MeToo owes its existence to feminism and the freedom and equality it enabled. Freedom and equality did not exist for women in "the good old days."

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Feb. 9, 2018 6:21 p.m.

    On the contrary, I don't think this situation is a symptom of an 'anything goes' society.
    In fact, it's a product of an 'anything no longer goes' attitude. This kind of abuse used to 'go' all the time. Remember when Ralph used to threaten to slug Alice? There were more than a few Ralphs in the day. Rather than being seen as becoming more permissive, our society should be recognised for not accepting this stuff anymore. The old mindset and institutions (including the church) failed these women terribly. Anything goes? No.
    We've got a way to go, but it's great to see the vestiges of the 'good old days' be cast away.

  • JBs Logan, UT
    Feb. 9, 2018 4:40 p.m.

    I applaud this editorial and agree with the phrase "our anything-goes society". We need to better understand what precedes the abuse to help change it and also quit defending perpetrators at the expense of the survivors.

    We all know those who are abused and abusers as well, we just don't know it. We need to do better.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 9, 2018 4:03 p.m.

    "Nearly 1 in 4 women (23%) and 1 in 7 men (14%) aged 18 and older in the United States have been the victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime."
    (CDC)

    Possible causes:

    "Factors that put individuals at risk for perpetrating IPV (intimate partner violence) include (but are not limited to) demographic factors such as age (adolescence and young adulthood),
    low income, low educational attainment, and unemployment; childhood history factors such as exposure to violence between parents, experiencing poor parenting, and experiencing child abuse and neglect, including sexual violence.
    Other individual factors that put people at risk for perpetrating IPV include factors such as stress, anxiety, and antisocial personality traits; attitudinal risk factors, such as attitudes condoning violence in relationships and belief in strict gender roles; and other behavioral risk factors such as prior perpetration and victimization of IPV or other forms of aggression,
    such as peer violence, a history of substance abuse, a history of delinquency, and hostile communication styles."
    (CDC: "Preventing Intimate Partner Violence Across the Lifespan")

  • Vanka Provo, UT
    Feb. 9, 2018 3:18 p.m.

    "our anything-goes society"?

    This advances the dialogue how?

    This editorial is nothing but empty rhetoric.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 9, 2018 3:15 p.m.

    "What causes men or women to become angry? What causes them to be abusive? Has a loss of common principles led to a loss of moral foundation? If our anything-goes society is changing the rules on restraint, does that carry into personal relationships, where a hookup culture changes what is valued?

    Rightly, there are questions to be asked in the Porter case about the actions of the White House. But missing in the wall-to-wall coverage is a discussion of these other principled questions. Focusing on the behavior alone without also connecting the dots to the underlying principles of morality, decency and fidelity only ensures the floodwaters of abuse and misconduct will rise again."

    If I'm reading this correctly, it seems the opinion is suggesting modern society is to blame.

    No doubt spousal/partner abuse has long existed. The main difference between modern society and past generations is publicity. We are becoming more informed as to what is happening. In fact, according to one study in the Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, expectant mothers are more likely to die from murder or suicide than several of the most common pregnancy-related medical problems.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 9, 2018 2:59 p.m.

    The abuser is typically male and narcissistic. I have found Sam Vaknin's ("Malignant Self-Love: Narcissism Revisited") lectures online very useful.

    In fact there is a great deal known about abuse, but we don't act on it because current patterns of abuse serve our establishment. But such works against the interests of women massively.

    Your implication that men are about as often victims of abuse as women waters down the issue and misses the mark, and just isn't so.

  • LOU Montana Pueblo, CO
    Feb. 9, 2018 2:57 p.m.

    We have a President who is a bad example for our nation. He is verbally abusive to the people he works with and he's bragged about his sexual abuse of women.

    Till republicans take a stand against Trump they will have no credibility.

    Again I say, till Republicans take a stand against Trump they will have no credibility!