I would be interested in knowing who any of these "LDS rising stars"
that abuse their spouse or children are. My experience, even within the
church a man winds up being accountable for accusations, even when they have no
foundation in truth. He has to rebuild his reputation. I am also aware
of there being instances of spousal abuse by a young man, who seemed to be given
a "pass" because of his father's calling. Of course it was that
father who could not believe that his own son would do such things and gave him
the pass. Humans are not perfect. Just because we strive for perfection,
doesn't mean that we accomplish it, even when in leadership positions.
reading the scriptures you constantly find examples of otherwise good people,
failing.In answer to another comment, yes, there are women who are
disciplined for abuse. but also keep in mind that church discipline is not
"legal" discipline, there is a huge difference, to include what you
should expect from the church's disciplinary councils.
Have any women been excommunicated or disciplined in any way for abusing their
husbands? Just wondering.
So if the woman must be automatically believed, then the man must be
automatically disbelieved. Isn't that the very definition of sexism?
I hope -Mormon Women for Ethical Government - see this.I have been at the
2018 legislative session most every day this year.I have a large sign -
showing a filed Corp. Bribery Complaint &Handout this ethics test as
proof of Bribery.None will give their honest opinion - none are
truly ethical under oath citizensThey all obstruct justice with silence.
__(header)- Ethics Test for Public Officials & You._State&Fed. Bribery statute: The offering, giving, receiving, or soliciting
of something of value for the purpose of influencing the action of an official
in the discharge of his or her public or legal duties__I agree that
corporate political contributions are not lawful and violate state and federal
bribery statutes because of: "corporate mission laws/Justification of
Spending" that protect share holder's funds (from
fraud/embezzlement); funds must be spent on profit, potential profit or
humanitarian expenditures only. So intent cannot be freedom of speech but
seeking influence for profit.Sign here:_Name(print)_ Sign_ date_If you believe that corporate political contributions (under corporate
mission laws) are lawful.Sign here:_Name(print)_ Sign_ date_(notarize)
RE: batfink .I'm yet to meet a perfect Mormon or a group of perfect Mormons
for that matter so how can I request they stop using the Mormon name as a
collective of Mormons ? True,”Inasmuch as this Church of
Christ(JS) has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we
declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one
husband”, (H of C, vol. 2, pg. 247 August 1835.)
Looks to me like anyone can call themselves "Mormon" and get free
publicity so they can attack all men in general. My advice to women is, "If
you suffer physical abuse, call 911. But remember there are criminal penalties
for filing a false police report."My advice to men is, "If
you find yourself ready to hit a woman in anger, walk away from the situation.
Find ways to get rid of your anger. Here are some tips from the Mayo Clinic on
how to deal with anger."1. Take a timeout.2. Go for a walk or
run outdoors.3. Breathe deeply and relax.4. Think of some positive
solutions.5. Use "I" statements like, "I am upset that you did
that."6. Forgive and learn from the situation.7. Seek help from
a trusted counselor.
I get the concern of guys who worry about accusers being automatically believed.
It puts them in a vulnerable spot, one in which their well-being isn't
dependent on what's true, but on the group with the power and influence,
and whether they're inclined to do the right thing rather than protect
their own. Really - we women get that.So while the data shows that
false accusations dwarf valid ones, I'm all for making sure a steep price
is paid for making false accusations. (Including for men who falsely accuse
women of lying.) It's not only the right thing to do, it's in
everyone's best interests. The better we are at catching and holding
accountable the liars, the more trust everyone will have in the system.
" I wish groups wouldn't use names like that. You aren't
necessarily representative of "Mormon women". No group can be, which is
why the church shouldn't be used for any agenda no matter how well meaning.
"Hmm, I pondered that too but then it dawned on me to 'cast
the beam out of mine own eye first' as I call myself a Mormon but regularly
fall short of the mark. I'm yet to meet a perfect Mormon or a group
of perfect Mormons for that matter so how can I request they stop using the
Mormon name as a collective of Mormons ?
Let she who is without sin cast the first stone.
Abused? As soon as possible, walk out the door while you call the police. Nip it
or end it before it gets worse. Abusers have forgotten what they signed up or
make an eternal promise for. Trade them in immediately. Too many cases of hope
they will change. They do claim they have changed in their parole hearings. All
these going on while the abused are permanent residents of city cemeteries.
Forgiveness is the Answer said it better than anyone could. Those who abuse
another must be punished, as well as those who abuse someone else through false
accusations. We've all heard of women making false and
exaggerated claims of abuse of themselves and/or children in order to get a more
favorable divorce settlement. We've all heard of the Duke lacrosse team
incident as well as the girl who carried around her mattress around campus as a
symbol of her own alleged rape. Both of those incidents were proven to be false
accusations against innocent men. Women who claim abuse/rape
deserve to have their claims investigated and prosecuted should their claims are
found to have merit. They don't deserve to be automatically believed
simply because they are women. Edward R. Murrow stated, "We must remember
always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence
and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. " If
women are automatically believed and their accusations are considered proof,
without due process of law, then we all will walk in fear of one another. The
#metoo movement is causing men to be afraid of dealing with women.
Mweg is a liberal political group, and is out demanding their social justice in
warrior fashion. Mweg is a way to whine about losing the last presidential
election.^which demeans real victims, because simply being mweg
means it's about social, not justice.
In my experience and those of other women who I know who were also abused by
their Mormon husbands little or nothing was done. The comments I got from my
bishop early in my marriage was "you just need to make better meals and be a
better wife". A friend was told, "you just need to lose a little
weight" another was told, "you just need to have more sex" and yet
another was told after the children reported sexual abuse, "I refuse to
believe this good man that I know could possibly be doing this". None of th
above husbands were ever held to the facts and not moved from "good
standing". There does need to be better training for bishops and for
members. Abuse of any kind should not be tolerated! And then we need to define
what it is so that women and children know that being degraded, disrespected,
belittled, name calling and etc are not normal and is abuse.
"Mormon Women for Ethical Government is ... dedicated to the ideals of
decency, honor, accountability, transparency, and justice in governing."The first principle and law of a righteous government, is that this
government must never be self-serving. It should never act in and of itself and
of its own accord for the sake of its own existence. A righteous government
serves those that benefit from its existence, and those who benefit from its
existence are those who give it the power that it has received. That power,
again, is limited to serving those who gave it power.A righteous
government will do nothing that infringes upon the free agency of those whom it
serves, except in defending the free agency of another from being infringed
upon. A righteous government follows the principles outlined by the
prophet Joseph Smith in the 11th Article of Faith. It allows all humans the
privilege of worshiping their God according to the dictates of their own
conscience, worshipping how, where, or what they may.A righteous
religion would support the principles of a righteous government and not impose
its religion on other human beings.
From extensive personal experience, I've repeatedly witnessed how the
Church has stood for disciplining most severely any person who has abused his
wife or a member of his family, even beyond excommunication, ensuring the
natural legal consequences be fulfilled many years before readmission. On the other hand, I have also witnessed false police reports where both
a woman and a man have made allegations of the grossest of abuse that they knew
they had completely invented and were wholly false, solely to make someone
suffer, and the ramifications of those false police reports still continue
destroying lives decades later. So, not all women "must be
believed," because too many use it as a weapon in divorce and in the
business world. The accused is entitled to "due process" in the American
Constitution. The Church handles it better than any organization or government
I know of.
"These women must be heard and they must be believed." As much as I
sympathize with and support these women, I have reservations about the "must
be believed" part. They must be believed -- if they have evidence and facts
to substantiate their accusation. For what it's worth, I can testify from
personal experience that people can, and do, get falsely accused of spousal and
Impartial, nowhere in the article does is say that every priesthood holder who
abuses his wife or children receives church discipline. You made that one up. It
would be great if we had perfect justice in this life. Sometimes abuse is not
brought up by the victim. Sometimes there are allegations and denials so
I'm sure not every situation is so cut and dry. My experience is that the
church as a whole does an amazing job of taking abuse seriously.
@Impartial:First, I'm sure you join me in sending sincere
condolences to the women in this case and the victims in every case. Looking at just one case, which is certainly one too many, it's
impossible to say that previous admonishments aren't working generally.
Although it appears that Porter didn't take the many
admonishments to heart that he must have heard if he attended church, and it
appears he didn't live up to the standards for behavior so clearly set
forth in LDS scripture (i.e. Doctrine and Covenants Section 121), my anecdotal
experience in church leadership demonstrates that Pres. Hinckley's
statement is indeed the standard that leaders look to in training, counseling,
and discipline. My experience is that leaders unequivocally teach these
principles, pulling no punches in priesthood leadership meetings. My experience
is that perpetrators are dealt with strictly and that victims are supported.I believe this episode will strengthen the resolve of church
authorities, general and local, to apply better the training and counsel they
are receiving as they deal with this aberrant, abhorrent, inexcusable behavior.
@kaysvillecougar;"Impartial's comment is completely inaccurate.
Maybe you could let us know why the LDS church doesn't abhor abuse.
"I'm sure the church abhors it. I'm disputing the fact
that every priesthood holder that abuses his wife is disciplined as stated.
(Im)partial,That's a whole lot of allegations in such a short
comment. Any citations or are you just showing your impartiality again?
I wish groups wouldn't use names like that. You aren't necessarily
representative of "Mormon women". No group can be, which is why the
church shouldn't be used for any agenda no matter how well meaning.
Impartial7 says:"Obviously there a lot of abusers that are in good
standing."I always mistrust a statement that begins with
"obviously". If it really is obvious, that wouldn't need to be
Impartial's comment is completely inaccurate. Maybe you could let us know
why the LDS church doesn't abhor abuse. I'm not buying it my friend.
You're anti-LDS bias couldn't be further from the truth.
@SayNotoBO;"I'm so glad MWEG spoke out about this. There are so
many people who are in favor of abusing women. /sarc off"They're speaking up now, because whatever admonishments that were made
before aren't working.
I'm so glad MWEG spoke out about this. There are so many people who are in
favor of abusing women. /sarc off
"No man who abuses his wife or children is worthy to be a member in good
standing in this Church. The abuse of one’s spouse and children is a most
serious offense before God.' "That sounds great in theory,
but it's clearly not policy. Especially if the abuser is a rising mormon
star. Obviously there a lot of abusers that are in good standing.