National Geographic discovery of Mayan ruins not proof, but very interesting

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  • mike_m Scottsbluff, NE
    Feb. 15, 2018 7:08 a.m.

    The Caravan Moves On said "For those who have had God tell them the Book of Mormon is indeed from Him, no physical evidence is needed." I fully agree and that is how it needs to be. There is no need to make any claims of physical evidence. The problem with such claims is that they are not supportable. They utilize known hoax artifacts, misrepresentation of science (haplogroup x), reference to overly sensationalized media stories, etc. Those kind of claims can end up weakening one's faith. Moroni's promise should be enough. If it isn't, something is wrong.

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Feb. 14, 2018 4:42 p.m.

    For those who have had God tell them the Book of Mormon is indeed from Him, no physical evidence is needed.

    For those who refuse to believe the Book of Mormon is from God until/unless they receive physical evidence or proof, no amount of "proof" will ever really be enough.

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Feb. 14, 2018 4:37 p.m.

    @ Ken Kyle - Lethbridge, Alberta, 00 - Feb. 8, 2018 9:34 a.m. - "The photo accompanying the article shows stone buildings. In the Book of Mormon there is no mention of stone buildings whatsoever. The Book also states that the Nephites were expert at constructing cities made of wood."

    The Book of Mormon also says (Heleman 3: 7, 9, 11) that they were experts at working with cement, yes, "cement". Go read it yourself.

  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Feb. 13, 2018 6:01 p.m.

    CMTM posted:

    =RE: kvnsmnsn. “why an alleged deity who has the ability to annihilate the
    =unsaved, chooses not to annihilate the unsaved.”?

    CMTM, Bass679 warned me that you don't respond to posts like this, but I thought I'd give you a chance to prove her/him wrong. You quoted this question I asked, but you never answered it. Why should I consider this alleged deity a good God?

  • CMTM , 00
    Feb. 13, 2018 8:53 a.m.

    RE: kvnsmnsn. “why an alleged deity who has the ability to annihilate the unsaved, chooses not to annihilate the unsaved.”?

    To create the sun, mountains, animal life, etc., God simply spoke, in Genesis 1.

    Human life, however, included the “dust of the earth” and the very breath of God. Man is a unique combination of earthly, natural material and life-giving power from God Himself. Such a mode of creation highlights the importance and value of human life.

    For you are dust, And to dust you shall return.”(Gen 3:19)

    @The soul did not exist prior to conception. Whether God creates a new human soul at the moment of conception, or whether God designed the human reproductive process to also reproduce a soul, God is ultimately responsible for the creation of each and every human soul
    .
    and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.(Ecc 12:7)

    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in (gÉenna)= hell.(Mt 10:28)

    For in him we live and move and have our being(Acts 17:28 Creation is dependent on God for its very existence.

  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 4:50 p.m.

    Sharrona posted:

    =RE: NeifyT. Some Biblical Context, Christians believe in creation Ex Nihlio.
    ...
    [email protected]” and “organizing”. If it had a beginning that means in had to have a
    =“beginner”.(John 1:1). “We know that in the laws of nature (something
    =Evangelicals would say was introduced in the creation) that something cannot
    =come from nothing.
    =
    =So Mormons need to answer “where did the pre-existing natural materials come
    =from that God used to create?” And I would follow that question with “if they
    =were created, why aren’t we worshiping ‘their creator?” .

    The problem with ex nihilo creation is that it is hard to imagine a God that can take humans from not existing in any form to existing, but who cannot do the reverse, take humans from existing to not existing in any form. The problem of where the pre-existing natural materials came from is nowhere near as intractable as the problem of why an alleged deity who has the ability to annihilate the unsaved, chooses not to annihilate the unsaved. That might be a powerful, or at least an apparently powerful being, but I see no reason to call him God.

  • kvnsmnsn Springville, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 4:31 p.m.

    Skeptic posted:

    =And while I don't believe the BOM story is true history. I do believe that
    =those making the claim that it is a true history have the duty and
    =responsibility of proving it.

    Skeptic, do you believe that about SETI too? That if they believe there are aliens out there they have the duty and responsibility of proving that they are there? I would never require that of SETI, and I think that the truth claims of the LDS Church are just as reasonable as the truth claims of SETI.

    =To propagate and perpetuate religious fables or superstitions is not just in
    =god's or man's eyes and it prolongs the progress of honest faith and growth in
    =learning and exaltation.

    You have not yet established that what the LDS Church propagates and perpetuates ARE fables. And regarding that second statement, that "it prolongs the progress of honest faith and growth in learning and exaltation," what does that even mean?

  • Groucho Marks Lehi, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:40 p.m.

    Wow. Nothing brings out the "skeptics" like a pro BOM article, especially by Dan Peterson. Nothing in his article says this is a smoking gun. It's just an interesting correlation. The true gift of the Book of Mormon is the words contained inside of the covers. Anyone looking for scientific or archeological proof of its veracity is going to be sorely disappointed. Do I believe that eventually all of the scientific and archeological stuff will be revealed? Of course. Do I hang my hat on seeing any of the skeptics believe it once it is revealed. Nope.

  • One of Vai's Cousins DC, Washington
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:39 p.m.

    In the immortal words of Lloyd Christmas - “so your telling me there’s a chance. yeah!”

    This new discovery allows members to feel like there remains a chance archeological evidence will finally prove the Book of Mormon true. But this will likely only dramatically increase the vast amounts of Mayan (and other S American civilizations) history that has absolutely nothing to do with anything Hebrew, Christian, or anything remotely resembling Mormonism.

    But it will take decades to uncover this new archeological evidence. Allowing members, and Lloyd Christmas, to continue to hang on to hope.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 2:35 p.m.

    RE: NeifyT. Some Biblical Context, Christians believe in creation Ex Nihlio.

    E.g.., Through faith we understand that the worlds=(time,G. aion) were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.(Heb 11:3).

    Jer 1:5. The emphasis is on God’s foreknowledge (“I knew thee”), not humanity’s knowing God. In Job 38:4, God rebukes Job, “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? ”Job 38:7 NIV …” and all the angels(sons)shouted for joy”.” In effect, God was reminding Job how Job wasn’t even in existence when the world was created.

    Christians believe that God is omniscient, knowing everything about each person before birth.

    @creating” and “organizing”. If it had a beginning that means in had to have a “beginner”.(John 1:1). “We know that in the laws of nature (something Evangelicals would say was introduced in the creation) that something cannot come from nothing.

    So Mormons need to answer “where did the pre-existing natural materials come from that God used to create?” And I would follow that question with “if they were created, why aren’t we worshiping ‘their creator?” .

  • NeifyT Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 12:53 p.m.

    @sharrona, RE: 1Cor 15:46.

    I recently had this discussion with someone over on the Tribune website, perhaps you are the same person. The entire chapter of 1 Cor 15 is a symbolic representation of the resurrection. You have clearly taken one verse completely out of context as if to say there was no pre-earth life.

    But, that verse cannot be taken that way; that verse is specifically talking about the resurrection of the dead; which were physical before they were spiritual and they will be raised physical again.

    If you read all the chapter; and understand it; it fits quite perfectly with doctrines in the LDS church. If you take out a few verses and try to say they mean something that they are not talking about you miss the entire point of the chapter; which is to ensure that even though we will die; we will live again.

    The entire chapter has nothing to do with outlining our entire existence; only one small portion of time. Read it in context and learn to recognize symbolism, it really is quite easy to understand.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 10:52 a.m.

    RE: Genesis,Septuagint,the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    The P of G. P. in comparison to the Bible: The first 6 chapters of Genesis(JST)or The Book of Moses contains 311 verses, While the Septuagint and Masoretic texts contain 184 verses.

    JST adds “ 127” verses which are not supported by the Septuagint and Masoretic texts or Dead Sea Scrolls. But over 123 N.T. quotes support the existing O.T.

    RE: The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. ( 1Cor 15:46 NIV)

    @ Abraham 3:26 “kept not their first estate= (Jude 1: 6 KJV,JST) JS misunderstood the KJV translation. Context, E.g…,

    “….the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority,..(Jude 1: 6 NIV)
    or,… the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority…( Jude 1:6 NLT)

    Context,”… angels when they sinned, but sent them to (*tartarÓ hell…”)) 2 Peter 2:4) actually Fallen angels(demons) Not pre mortality.. (*tartarÓ 5020) punishment fit for demons

    Origen believed in the Platonic pre-existence and transmigration of souls. The Council of Constantinople .. in 453 CE posthumously excommunicated him.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 12, 2018 10:13 a.m.

    @KimSim,
    you posted: Look, I don't know if researchers will discover the ruins of an ancient Nephite city tomorrow, in a year, in a hundred years, or ever.
    I sympathize with you. And while I don't believe the BOM story is true history. I do believe that those making the claim that it is a true history have the duty and responsibility of proving it. And they do have the recourse and means to bring forth the truth, so they should do the right thing and reveal the truth. The same as was done with polygamy, Black priesthood and other issues. To propagate and perpetuate religious fables or superstitions is not just in god's or man's eyes and it prolongs the progress of honest faith and growth in learning and exaltation.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 9:55 a.m.

    Sharrona posted:

    =RE: Prophecy. “That seer… his name shall be called Joseph and it shall be after
    =the name of his father”. ( Genesis 50:33 JST), JS adds prophecy about himself
    =to his Inspired Version. But NOT found in Greek Septuagint(Apostles Bible) or
    =dead sea scrolls.

    Sharrona, has God ever said that every sentence He wants in Genesis is in the Septuagint or the Dead Sea Scrolls?

  • maclouie Falconer, NY
    Feb. 12, 2018 9:51 a.m.

    Pro-Scout:

    Either I misread your post or you have not heard of the Jaredites. Every Mormon I know believes Lehi was not the first one on this continent.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Feb. 12, 2018 8:54 a.m.

    KevinSim RE:. Nephi is from the KJV, Apocrypha, II Maccabees 1:36.

    Lehi is from the O. T., Judges 15:9,14 and 19.

    Zenos was in use before the Book of Mormon as a person's name.
    Zenos Riggs is listed in the 1873 Hanover, New Jersey census. Zenos Gurley, Sr., was born in 1801 at Bridgewater, New York, and later joined Mormonism.

    Enos is taken from Genesis 4:26. KJV . There is a Zenas in (N.T.)Titus 3:13.

    RE: Prophecy. “That seer… his name shall be called Joseph and it shall be after the name of his father”. ( Genesis 50:33 JST), JS adds prophecy about himself to his Inspired Version. But NOT found in Greek Septuagint(Apostles Bible) or dead sea scrolls.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Feb. 11, 2018 3:39 p.m.

    Skeptic posted:

    =One can rationalize to an extreme to protect that which they wish to believe
    =and hope to be true, but it will not change reality. The thinking that every
    =foot of earth has to be examined before it is proven that there was no BOM
    =people here on the American continent is not realistic or a sincere reach for
    =god's truth.

    Skeptic, you're no more in touch with reality than I am. The reality is that the full story of what happened in ancient America is still being uncovered. The discovery of the Mayan megalopolis in Guatemala caught the scholars by surprise. That means it didn't fit prevailing theories, which means the scholars that you think have proved that the Book of Mormon is fictional, could be wrong.

    Look, I don't know if researchers will discover the ruins of an ancient Nephite city tomorrow, in a year, in a hundred years, or ever. It just seems enormously premature to conclude that archaeologists will never find one when surprise discoveries like this one are still being made.

  • mike_m Scottsbluff, NE
    Feb. 11, 2018 1:00 p.m.

    @Sore loser
    Google "Airborne Lidar, archaeology, and the ancient Maya landscape at Caracol, Belize", published in 2010. This recent National Geographic article isn't the first Lidar study of the Maya.

    It is not uncommon for sensationalized writings to the public. Look up the controversy over the lost city of the monkey God in Hondorus.

    Concerning Joseph Smith's ideas of tens of millions, Bartolomd de las Casas writings were published in English long before 1830. See the "The Tears of the Indians, Being An Historical and true Account Of the Cruel Massacres and Slaughters of above Twenty Millions of innocent People".

  • Sore loser Oakland, CA
    Feb. 10, 2018 11:21 p.m.

    I love how detractors claim that all of the breakthroughs regarding Mayan civilization are common knowledge. I have never heard about any of this stuff before and I have access to computers. The Nat Geo presentation clearly stated that their findings are not common knowledge. There is no way on earth that Joseph Smith would know that there was a civilization of tens of millions of Mayans in Mesoamerica

  • hbeckett Colfax, CA
    Feb. 10, 2018 1:06 p.m.

    faith precedes the miracle I know what I know and the truth has been made known to me by the Holy Ghost the BOM is true no doubt at all in my being because the Spirit does not bear false witness.

  • Pro-Scout Modesto, CA
    Feb. 10, 2018 12:33 p.m.

    If there is a question about pyramids in the Nephite culture, then one must consider that the pyramids are found upon the seafloor of the Gulf of Mexico, along with Greek style columns, and many statues! This indicates that there were other cultures of people's here in the western hemisphere long before father LEHI brought his families unto here. What those who advocate belief in the Book of Mormon testimony cannot deny is that others dwelt here beforehand, and this is written in the Nemenhah Sacred Records, a testimony of the Spirit, also. Possibly, more in important for believers, is that the other two thirds of the golden plates, which are in the custody of the angel Moroni, yet to become translated, may very well reveal information about these other pre-existing cultures residing in this western hemisphere before LEHI'S family had arrived.

  • Pro-Scout Modesto, CA
    Feb. 10, 2018 10:21 a.m.

    Here we have Professor Daniel Peterson who is correctly quoting the Book of Mormon for proper parameters regarding the clearly cut and dry evidences in Meso-American archeology! Nicely fitting parameters unto near future (3 yrs.) "lights and truth" regarding the proof for the translation of the hieroglyphs upon the golden plates of the angel Moroni. Also, there is another wonderful archaeological study to support evidential proof for the truth about the same Book of Mormon is found at the "Beit Lehi Foundation" which is in Facebook. Israel archeologists are uncovering a village 6 or 7 miles southeast of Jerusalem which the local Arab populations having been calling, the Ruins of Lehi, for centuries!

  • Chungman St George, UT
    Feb. 10, 2018 9:42 a.m.

    Daniel Peterson refers to some additional reading at the end of his article. Notably an article about archeologist Richard Hansen called "King of the Jungle". I know Richard Hansen very well, having spent hours with him, including time at his digs in Guatemala. Richard is a professional archeologist and would cringe at Daniel Peterson's suggestion of a "an explicit Mormon connection." regarding his work on the Mayans. Richard has worked very hard to keep his personal religious beliefs separate from his professional work. Peterson's attempt at making a Mormon connection with Richard Hansen in his article just makes it more difficult for Richard to be taken seriously by his peers in his chosen field of work.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 9, 2018 7:33 p.m.

    @KevinSim, Commertor,
    One can rationalize to an extreme to protect that which they wish to believe and hope to be true, but it will not change reality. The thinking that every foot of earth has to be examined before it is proven that there was no BOM people here on the American continent is not realistic or a sincere reach for god's truth. It is akin to thinking there is hope for a real Santa clause because there are still parts of the North Pole that have not been totally explored and after all we know there are sleds and there are reindeer and Santa Clause has sleds and reindeer and therefor he must be real. A better approach to live and believe is to seek truth and not propagate unreal dreams. If god is light and truth it is best to pursue truth and not pursue false dreams.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Feb. 9, 2018 3:39 p.m.

    Craig Clark, “..Paul also wrote you with the ‘wisdom that God gave him’. (2 Peter 3:15).
    (Amos 3:7). “He would do nothing without first revealing it to His servants, the prophets.” From the Old to the New, Gen to Rev. God provides ‘His entire plan for mankind ‘which is outlined in the Jewish feasts of Lev 23.

    The 7 annual feasts of Israel. But for both Jews and non-Jews who have placed their faith in Jesus, these special days demonstrate the work of redemption (From Adams fall) through God’s Son.

    The first 4 of the 7 (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, and Festival of Weeks and they all have already been fulfilled by Christ in the N. T. The final three holidays (Trumpets, the Day of Atonement, and Tabernacles).

    E.g…, 1) Passover (Lev 23:5) – Pointed to the Messiah(Jesus) as our Passover lamb (1 Cor 5:7) whose blood would be shed for our sins. Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation for the Passover at the same hour that the lambs were being slaughtered for the Passover meal that evening (John 19:14)

    RE: KevinSim - “Grace is granted to men proportionately as they conform to the standards of personal righteousness.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 339) VS Eph 2:8-9

  • Commentor ,
    Feb. 9, 2018 3:38 p.m.

    Most of all, I think this illustrates how vast areas of archaeology can go unseen and undiscovered for centuries. LIDAR was invented in the early 1960s, yet it has taken these decades before it was applied.
    So, when someone says "we haven't found one shred of archaeology to support the Book of Mormon...", we shouldn't assume that we know anywhere near everything there is to know about the earth's archaeology.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Feb. 9, 2018 1:51 p.m.

    Skeptic posted:

    =As Dr Peterson states the new discoveries of archeological ruins in the
    =Americas and other parts of the world are very interesting, but contrary to
    =what Dr. Peterson thinks, they are definite proof. Proof that the BOM story of
    =a great Hebrew civilization for over a thousand years here on the American
    =continent less than a thousand years ago is not a true history.

    Skeptic, did you read a WORD Peterson published? Did you perhaps miss the part where the article told of a huge Mayan city discovered just a few years ago? Did you perhaps miss the part where the article said researchers are hoping to apply the same sort of analysis that turned up this city to 5000 square miles over the next three years? The American continents cover a lot more territory than 5000 square miles. In a world where a Mayan megalopolis can be discovered one day, a Nephite city can be certainly discovered on another day. What this article showed was that the story of what happened in the ancient Americas is still being uncovered. It is still way premature to write the epitaph of the historicity of the Book of Mormon.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Feb. 9, 2018 1:36 p.m.

    CMTM posted:

    =Mormonism denies the efficacy of Jesus' finished work on the cross by adding
    =their perceived righteousness and works to their ungodly salvation process.

    Mormonism has added nothing. When the people of Jerusalem asked Peter what they should do to get forgiveness of their sins, Peter told them to repent. In his address on Mars Hill in Athens Paul also told those listening to repent. Repenting means stopping sinning. Mormonism just restores the importance of repentance that Peter and Paul taught from the beginning.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Feb. 9, 2018 1:19 p.m.

    CMTM,
    "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)
    ____________________
    Paul bowed to no one as an authority on Jesus. When he spoke of those who preach any other gospel, he was lashing out at rival interpreters of Jesus who had visited one of Paul’s communities while Paul was away. When he returned to find members of the community influenced by someone else's views during his absence. Paul would retaliate with his poison pen.

    The exclusivity of the Bible canon is arbitrary. It is not a single text. It is an anthology of diverse writings compiled piecemeal over time and invariably an attempt to supplant earlier canons.

  • CMTM , 00
    Feb. 9, 2018 12:23 p.m.

    RE: mhenshaw” Paul’s advice. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! (Gal 1:8).

    No new feature or another testament(BoM ) can be added to this will and testament after the death of Jesus. The new covenant= (diatheke) is a will and testament (Heb. 9:15-17). “It is finished” (John 19:28-30)

    In 2 Nephi 25:23, salvation is by grace, plus works. "…; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."? God is the author and perfector of our salvation (Heb 12:2).

    He who began a good work in us will perfect it on the day of Christ Jesus (Phil1:6).

    Mormonism denies the efficacy of Jesus' finished work on the cross by adding their perceived righteousness and works to their ungodly salvation process.

    Salvation is based on God’s saving grace, there is no room for us to boast, and all the glory goes to Him (Eph 2:8-9)

    VS, (D&C 132:37) Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.(Gal 3:6)

  • Sneaky Jimmy Bay Area, CA
    Feb. 9, 2018 12:20 p.m.

    These findings published in NG are indeed, very interesting. This "proof" is just more evidence that the civilizations in pre-Columbian America have been vastly underestimated. People living today do a disservice to history by trying to confine the diversity of the America's into a narrow religious narrative.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Feb. 9, 2018 10:42 a.m.

    The origin of America’s indigenous people was a mystery and the subject of much speculation in Joseph Smith’s time. Theories abounded, among them a theory that they descended from the legendary ten lost tribes of Israel (which were never as lost as popular Christian belief held). But the hypothetical link between them and native tribes in America was well known in colonial America in which the Smith family had deep roots. Ethan’s Smith, a New England Congregational clergyman whose View of the Hebrews published in 1823, speculated that there were prophets of God in ancient America, an idea that the Book of Mormon prominently features.

    I can’t say what was in Joseph Smith’s heart as he prepared the Book of Mormon for publication. But what the volume did was fill in the blanks giving America a grand Biblical antiquity that parallels Old World history of the Bible. It gave native American tribes a prior tradition of Christian belief long before white European settlers brought their Christian traditions to the New World. How Joseph went about it remains controversial. But he did it in a time when white prejudices often regarded native American peoples as heathens.

  • mhenshaw Leesburg, VA
    Feb. 9, 2018 9:12 a.m.

    After reading these comments, I find myself reminded of Gamaliel's very wise counsel about attacking about others' beliefs:

    "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." (Acts 5:38-39)

    Attacking others' personal beliefs is never productive--it persuades no one, fosters negativity, and discourages others from listening to what we have to say.

  • Michael_M Scottsbluff, NE
    Feb. 9, 2018 8:39 a.m.

    @Sportsfan123
    Wayne May's claims have been thorougly refuted by archaeologists. There is absolutely no credible evidence of smelting in North America.

    Read "Does Mitochondrial Haplogroup X Indicate Ancient Trans-Atlantic Migration to the Americas? A Critical Re-Evaluation" by Dr. Bolnick and Dr. Raff. X2a did not come to North America, it developed in North America and is not found anywhere else. It's ancestral haplogroup dates back so long ago before the Book of Mormon that there is no possible way to claim it is evidence.

  • CMTM , 00
    Feb. 9, 2018 8:27 a.m.

    RE: NoNamesAccepted. JS knew about ancient inhabitants of America from various sources.
    Cortez Pizzaro and others had amazing experiences and wrote about them.

    In. 1825 ,A View of South-America and Mexico: Comprising Their History, the Political Condition, Geography, Agriculture, Commerce, &c., of the Republics of Mexico, Guatamala, Colombia, Peru, the United Provinces of South-America and Chile, with a Complete History of the Revolution, in Each of These Independent States, Volumes 1-2.

    Page 124 - In the civil war existing between Spain and the Spanish Provinces in this hemisphere the greatest care has been taken to enforce the laws intended to preserve an impartial neutrality.

    He was very creative. The term “telestial” originated with JS’s use of the Latin Vulgate in the KJV; it appears that he took the first two letters of “(te)rrestrial” and added them on the ending of “ce(lestial)” to create the new word, “telestial.”

    E.g..(1 Cor 15:40 KJV) There are also*celestial bodies, and bodies **terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial = (G.epouranial )is one, and the glory of the terrestrial=( G. epigeia )is another.

  • Lilly Munster , 00
    Feb. 9, 2018 6:06 a.m.

    Here we go again. Trying to prove an allegory with unrelated, speculative, not even remotely connected tidbits.
    Remember, please, that all religions have "uncontested archaeological truth."
    So called Biblical Archaeology is the equivalent of Astrology. Fun, hopeful, and full of signs and wonders, but nonsense.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Feb. 9, 2018 6:04 a.m.

    When I first saw this news, I recalled Dr. Peterson musing some months ago that his god might be hiding evidence in order to test LDS' faith and I thought this might excite him.

    @ NoNames

    "...we simply don't know as much as some people think we know."

    Exactly. There is insufficient justification for declaring that gods do exist and that gods don't exist. Any such declaration must be considered opinion only. One can be convinced of their position, but they cannot honestly call it "knowing."

    And yet believers the world over do. And declare themselves humble.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Feb. 8, 2018 4:58 p.m.

    In this case the usual critics miss--and Dr. Peterson did not explicitly point out--the most important takeaway from the recent discovery of the massive Mayan city using LIDAR. The point is, we simply don't know as much as some people think we know.

    We've got all our modern conveniences like central AC and heat, electric lights, clean water, airplanes, satellite imagery of the earth, modern medicine, and grand theories as to the origin of the universe and life that don't rely on deity but instead can claim to be "scientific." It is 2018. We think we've got it figured out.

    And yet there is much we don't know. That goes double when it comes to archaeology. Just 10 years ago a synagouge for Jesus' day was discovered in Magdala of Galilee fundamentally changed scholarly views of Jesus' childhood. This Mayan discovery is huge. Almost incomprehensible it remained hidden so long. Roanoke remained lost for a couple of centuries.

    But there remain those who demand archaeological proof of what might be a relatively small group described in the BoM even when the book itself makes clear their enemies want to eradicate their records.

  • Sportsfan123 Salt lake, UT
    Feb. 8, 2018 4:45 p.m.

    @michael m

    So many things wrong with your post.

    First I never said I based my faith on anything, your words not mine.

    And yes there is tons of evidence of ancient smelting in N America - research the ancient Hopewell and Adena cultures.

    As far as the x2a genome dna evidence - see Brown Et Al from Emory Univ. he discovered the x2a marker and the only reason they lump it into the regular N American native indians dna is because it is dated in the same time range as the haplo groups A,B,C & D which have been traced back thru the berring ice bridge back to Asia, yet their own research states there is no presence of the x2a subclade in asia or the berring ice bridge. Infact the lineage of x2a comes from the x2 genome which originates from the mediteranean, which includes europe, north africa and near east. But they cant explain how x2a came to the n.american continent.

    And x2a is not found in south america there is no european dna pre-columbian times. There are ancient hebrew enscriptions found in n.america, yet nothing in mesoamerica.

    Find where the b of m describes building pyramids, where is the so american hill cumora?

    This is not an indictment of faith, just history.

  • Strider303 American Fork, UT
    Feb. 8, 2018 2:31 p.m.

    My take on the matter: I would love to see more exploration, excavation, and, restoration of these and other sites to show that other peoples and cultures besides the Romans could design, engineer, and build some pretty remarkable stuff.

    What is apparent is that there is a great deal of hidden archeological sites that were not known before. While some hold that the BofM is vindicated by this preliminary bit of information, others are quick to counter that the religious conclusions are hokum. The former appear to be somewhat comforted by the news, the latter seem a bit bellicose with the former groups conclusions.

    Thus the debate continues... .

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Feb. 8, 2018 2:02 p.m.

    skeptic,
    " . . . . the BOM story of a great Hebrew civilization for over a thousand years here on the American continent less than a thousand years ago is not a true history. So again, what is it: and inspired allegory, a romantic novel, a delusion, a fairy tale. What ever it is, it is time to reveal the truth and tell the truth.
    ____________________
    It can be whatever you want it to be. I have no problem acknowledging the Book of Mormon as inspired. But that doesn’t make it the ancient document it is purported to be. The earliest criticism when it was first published was that it was a hoax history Joseph Smith was attempting to perpetrate on the reading public. That’s my verdict on it as well but that doesn’t mean it’s without redeeming value

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Feb. 8, 2018 1:27 p.m.

    As Dr Peterson states the new discoveries of archeological ruins in the Americas and other parts of the world are very interesting, but contrary to what Dr. Peterson thinks, they are definite proof. Proof that the BOM story of a great Hebrew civilization for over a thousand years here on the American continent less than a thousand years ago is not a true history. So again, what is it: and inspired allegory, a romantic novel, a delusion, a fairy tale. What ever it is, it is time to reveal the truth and tell the truth.

  • Michael_M Scottsbluff, NE
    Feb. 8, 2018 12:02 p.m.

    @Sportsfan123, so many things wrong in your post. Smelting was never done in North America but was in fact done in South America, though not with iron. In North America, copper was widely used but did not need to be smelted. Your reference to Dr. Bolnick is wrong. In fact, see "Does Mitochondrial Haplogroup X Indicate Ancient Trans-Atlantic Migration to the Americas? A Critical Re-Evaluation" by Dr. Bolnick and Dr. Raff. And your reference to Wayne May leads one directly into all that is wrong with so-called evidence. His claims are pure pseudo nonsense that depart from truth and reality. Such is a terrible foundation to try to defend or strengthen faith on. Just stick with Moroni's promise, if that isn't enough then something is dreadfully wrong.

  • CMTM , 00
    Feb. 8, 2018 11:52 a.m.

    Joseph Smith knew about ancient inhabitants of America from various sources.

    William Penn and other early preachers had theories and in 1823 The view of the Hebrews (ten tribes of Israel) was published was published in his hometown.

    In 1824 an example from his mother. "During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would to with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life with them." (Lucy Smith, Biographical Sketches, p. 85)

  • Sportsfan123 Salt lake, UT
    Feb. 8, 2018 9:57 a.m.

    Sorry to burst the bubble of many LDS faithful, but mesoamerica aka anything south of the rio grande river has absolutely nothing to do with the b of m, here is why.

    The b of m never describes building pyramids, hebrews did not build in this fashion.

    There has been no evidence of metal smelting found in south america. No head plates, breast shields...etc

    There has been no ancient hebrew dna evidence found in south america.

    The hill Cumora is in NY not in so. America where moroni buried the plates.

    Cpt. Moroni describes the defensive structures of throwing up heaps of round about the cities with timber erected on top them round about, with pickets and towers see alma 49 and alma 50: 1-5.

    There has been hebrew dna found in north america see prof Debra Bolnik and the hopewell.

    There is alot of history of north america not taught in our history books, but research from non-mormon archeologists did extensive surveys of the north east & midwest of ancient mound structures see: aboriginal monuments of new york state by E.G.Squire, ancient monuments of the missippi valley by E.G.Squire and E.H.Davis.

    See also Wayne May mormon archeology on youtube info supporting the BofM in N Am.

  • Michael_M Scottsbluff, NE
    Feb. 8, 2018 9:35 a.m.

    Be cautious when things are sensationalized like this article by Peterson is doing. This isn't a first of its kind study of the Mayans. The same technology was used in Belize 8 years ago with similar findings, so this recent study isn't novel or groundbreaking. It is really just a continuation of applied technology in archaeological research.

    The claims made by Peterson of causeways isn't new. Those were known about in Joseph Smith's day, as Mayans had been seen using them and Spaniards wrote about it 300 years earlier and those accounts had been re-published in English before 1830. For all of this hype about the Mayan, there is not a single shred of credible evidence in either archaeology or genomics that ties them in any way whatsoever to ancient Hebrews.

    For me, claims like today's defending the faith article do more harm than good. Especially when other LDS members speak out that it was the Hopewell people in the heartland. LDS members can't even come to an agreement on where the BofM stories supposedly occurred and science provides no real support at all for the Book of Mormon no matter which geographical model is claimed by overzealous LDS members.

  • Ken Kyle Lethbridge, Alberta, 00
    Feb. 8, 2018 9:34 a.m.

    The photo accompanying the article shows stone buildings. In the Book of Mormon there is no mention of stone buildings whatsoever. The Book also states that the Nephites were expert at constructing cities made of wood.

  • John Marx Layton, UT
    Feb. 8, 2018 9:21 a.m.

    The articles notes a couple archaeological finds that appear to be similar to what is found in the Book of Mormon text. But don't these findings also raise concerns? This technology allows us to see what we previously could not. But even with this technology the Lamanites and Nephites civilizations are still undetected.
    Also since the Mayan civilization is also larger than previously thought, especially if you believe that the Book of Mormon took place somewhere in Central America, why is there no mention of this other massive civilization in the Book of Mormon text? Also an expanded Mayan civilization simply leaves less real estate for the Book of Mormon events to have taken place in.