Greg Bell: In defense of the vital virtues of society

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  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Feb. 5, 2018 2:31 p.m.

    To "Impartial7" if you hate hypocrisy, where were you when Obama was in office? Where were you during the Clinton campaign? I don't seem to remember you pointing out their hypocrisy.

    Do you call yourself out on hypocrisy?

    How do you know that Captain Moroni isn't factual? Can you see into the past and see any location you want?

    To "Karen R." and who would you like to have in the White House right now?

    To "patrioticAMERICAN" Captain Moroni did kill of a bunch of king-men that refused to defend the nation. So it shows us that there comes a time when you do have to pull out the sword.

    To "marxist" here is the problem with your theory. Infidelity can only be used if Trump doesn't want it exposed. If he didn't care or could cast reasonable doubt about it, then it can't be used as blackmail.

  • Thomas Jefferson Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 5, 2018 10:35 a.m.

    @patrioticAMERICAN

    " I never visited death camps, but know the Holocaust happened. I've never seen Christ, but know he's my Savior. I've never seen the records the Bible was translated from, but know it contains God's Word. I've never seen the gold plates, but know the BOM is God's truth."

    You dont 'know' that anymore than the 9/11 bombers knew that god wanted them to destroy the WTC. It is factual to say 'believe' that. The difference is HUGE. To compare that to holocaust deniers is not just wrong but disgusting.

  • pragmatistferlife Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 4, 2018 9:33 a.m.

    "Letting go of judgment, stereotyping and unnecessary criticism is most satisfying and uplifting.". Here's the key pharse.."unnecessary criticism".

    Impartial aptly describes why the criticism of Trump as a person is absolutely necessary even before we get to his policies that we find wrongheaded.

    Nonames.."For that matter, a whole lot of Trump haters today were and remain big fans of Bill Clinton, himself." Not of his moral character as it relates to his sexual misconduct we're not. BTW it took Impartial and entire paragraph (quoted) to outline the moral decadence of Trump, and you're harping on one Clinton flaw.

    JThompson "On a day when specific claims were made linking FBI, DOJ and Democrats to the largest scandal in American history,".

    A FISA application, on a Trump campaign worker who had been under investigation for 3 years , that doesn't explicitly (it does implicitly) identify a funding source is the largest scandal in American history. You need to buy a history book son.

    Remember the dossier has nothing to do with the Trump investigation..per the memo.

  • L White Springville, UT
    Feb. 3, 2018 8:09 p.m.

    Evil is in the eye of the beholder. To those who believe in change, in repentance, in Christ, any problem is temporary. To those who believe only in themselves, then as they are now, so shall they be forever.

    Mr. Bell tried to lift us from the despair of believing in our limits and in the limits of others. His message is lost on people whose eyes never look further than their own mirror in their search for greatness. What they might think of as greatness as they look on their reflection is only the fading glimpse of what could have been had they allowed the Master to lift them.

    The way they speak of others reflects how they think of themselves. Could the faults they accuse others of be the faults that they try to hide from others, just as those who stood with stones in their hands to kill the woman were brought to shame as his message to them was written in the sand. When the accusers had slunk away, the Master gave hope to the woman.

    We have a choice. We can cling to everything that inhibits happiness and joy or we can give ourselves a break and let the Master brighten our understanding.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Feb. 3, 2018 2:36 p.m.

    @patrioticAmerican;
    "I've never seen the gold plates, but know the BOM is God's truth. There will always be skeptics & deniers. Someday, all truth will be revealed."

    When you were young, you never saw Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny (both religious holidays) but you believed in them. Then you grew up and found out you were not told the truth. Rinse and repeat.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 3, 2018 1:37 p.m.

    @Mike Richards "Christ, God's son, showed us the way when the adulterous woman was judged by others and brought before him. John recorded the incident: " Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”

    So you are comparing this "adulterous woman" to Donald Trump. Here's the problem with Trump's immorality: it makes him subject to blackmail. You as a conservative LDS should understand this.

    I believe, based on Trump's behavior toward Putin, that Trump is being controlled by Putin because of Trump's behavior while being spied upon in Russia.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 3, 2018 9:07 a.m.

    Mr. Bell starts his article with these words: "The fraternal twins of honesty and integrity have been under assault this past year."

    Honesty and integrity. Words that define the character of the upright. The opposite of honest would be dishonesty. The opposite of integrity is a little harder to define, but I'll use the word, "division".

    I particularly like Mr. Bell's quote from the Young Woman's set of values: "I will have the moral courage to make my actions consistent with my knowledge of right and wrong.”

    He also said: "A consistent, integrated person must harmonize his or her thoughts, feelings, words and acts with espoused principles."

    He wrote: "Letting go of judgment, stereotyping and unnecessary criticism is most satisfying and uplifting."

    Then comes a very profound paragraph: "Literally hundreds of times, my judgments of others have proven to be shallow, biased and uninformed. With some exceptions, I have no right to judge people anyway. We don’t need to judge others very often at all. Leave that to God."

    He ended with the quote from Lincoln: "With malice toward none, with charity for all".

    Very good article. Very good advice.

  • my_two_cents_worth university place, WA
    Feb. 2, 2018 10:28 p.m.

    @mike richards, j thompson...

    “Physician, heal thyself.”

  • Unreconstructed Reb Chantilly, VA
    Feb. 2, 2018 9:54 p.m.

    Tolstoy,

    My experience with certain posters is that they are willing to unleash a fusillade of personal judgments when you disagree with their opinions, but first to admonish you for judging them when they're painted into moral corners.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 8:23 p.m.

    @j Thomas
    So directly quoting your earlier comments on this thread and asking questions about those direct quotes is “vague personal attacks” Mike?

  • 1st avenue New York, NY
    Feb. 2, 2018 8:02 p.m.

    @jthomas
    I don’t know j was this comment by you “meant to build up or to tear down?”

    ““People who are absolutely ignorant of God's hand in all things good...”

  • patrioticAMERICAN South Jordan, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 7:39 p.m.

    @Mike Richards: “Christ told us not to condemn or to judge others...”

    Christ did pass judgments on some. He called hypocritical scribes & Pharisees “whited sepulchres”, & accused money changers of turning his temple into a “den of thieves.” It's silly to think we're not ever supposed to judge. Would you keep your child away from a party where alcohol was being served?—that's judging. Look at Lev. 19:15, Psalm 58:1, & John 7:24, which command us to make “righteous judgments”. Consider Matt. 7: “...by their fruits ye shall know them.” We all have brains, & God wants us to use them.

    @Impartial7: “WWII & Germany, Japan & Britain are factual. Moroni is not.”

    You're entitled to your opinion. There are holocaust deniers. Some deny Christ is our Savior, that God exists or that the Bible is God's word. Doesn't mean they're right. I never visited death camps, but know the Holocaust happened. I've never seen Christ, but know he's my Savior. I've never seen the records the Bible was translated from, but know it contains God's Word. I've never seen the gold plates, but know the BOM is God's truth. There will always be skeptics & deniers. Someday, all truth will be revealed. We'll see then.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 6:59 p.m.

    Greg Bell wrote an amazing article whose central purpose was to ask us to not be so quick to judge. Some people got it. Some didn’t. Some used it as a reason to make vague personal attacks. Interesting, isn’t it? On a day when specific claims were made linking FBI, DOJ and Democrats to the largest scandal in American history, liberals on those threads responded with vague accusations and even more vague defenses. On this thread, vague accusations had what purpose? Were they meant to build up or to tear down. More importantly, would they have ever been allowed in court where hearsay is banned?

  • 1st avenue New York, NY
    Feb. 2, 2018 5:55 p.m.

    @Mike Richards
    I think this is the most truthful thing you have ever written “There is no vagueness to my accusations.”

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 5:19 p.m.

    @mike Richards

    Isn’t “accusations,” especially false ones, a form of judgement?

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 5:15 p.m.

    @mike Richards

    “So now you're in the judging business too. ”

    No more at then you.

    “People who are absolutely ignorant of God's hand in all things good...”

    Again feel free to try something new and lead by example.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 2, 2018 3:49 p.m.

    Tolsoy,

    So now you're in the judging business too. Greg Bell's words meant nothing to you nor did Christ's. Go ahead and judge. Agency is given to all people. Use it to improve society or use it to attack others because they don't dance to your tune. I do not dance to your tune. I doubt that I will ever dance to your tune.

    You judge the nature of my posts. All I can say is that, like Will Rogers, I only say things that I read in the papers. If you judge me for reporting the news, then you judge the media first. When I call someone a liar, I always include the lie. When I say that someone is unethical, I state why that person is unethical. There is no vagueness to my accusations. There is no "Given the nature of your posts" accusations from me.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 3:24 p.m.

    @mike Richards
    Given the nature of your posts over the years perhaps it would be wise for you to also consider taking heed of Mr. Bells and Christ admonishment in the future and maybe begin to lead by example.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 3:24 p.m.

    @patriotic American;
    "Would “love” have kept Germany from destroying Britain or Japan from destroying America? Did Moroni erect the “Title of Liberty” & call his people to “love” the “king-makers”, or to fight & expunge them? "

    No, Moroni didn't do any of that. WWII and Germany, Japan and Britain are factual. Moroni is not.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 2, 2018 2:58 p.m.

    Happy Valley Heretic - Orem, UT,

    You condemn me for supporting the President. You claim that Mr. Trump is not "worthy". You claim that I cannot worship Christ at the same time that I support the President.

    Did you read my post? Do you disagree with Christ when he said: "Did no one condemn you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”

    It's strange how many people are in the condemning business when Christ told us not to condemn or to judge others, with the warning that the same judgment that we use to judge others will be used against us when Christ must finally make judgment of us. Is his warning not sufficient for us? Are we going to reject his direct decree about judging other even while using him to justify the action he told us to not do? Just how does that work?

    The greatest virtue is to have pure love for every person. EVERY person. Otherwise we, the imperfect, condemn the only perfect person who has ever lived on earth. Otherwise we, the imperfect, reject his direct admonition to us to NOT judge others.

  • patrioticAMERICAN South Jordan, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 1:53 p.m.

    @NoNamesAccepted: “And once elected, only a rank, partisan fool actually wants the president to fail.”

    Wrong! I am neither Republican, nor Democrat. In fact, at the moment I have no party affiliation whatsoever, not having found one yet that fits my values (but I haven't researched various Independant parties much yet). What I am is American, & that is why I want Trump to fail. Why? Because we've only endured one year into his 4-yr. term, & it's been a year of hatred & confusion not seen for decades, perhaps since the civil war. Hate crimes are up, as is bullying in schools, depression & anxiety & the “forgotten” have been gobbled up as fodder, & spit out—plus, the rest of the world sees us as inconsequential fools, & we're in danger of engaging in a nuclear war in the near future (esp. if Trump gets his way on obtaining “smaller nukes”). I don't think America can stomach another 3 years of this, let alone, 7! I don't want there to be ANY chance of it being 7 more years, so yes, I want him to fail big time. No conservative S. C. justice or judicial system, or booming stock market is worth the damage he is doing to our psyche, our sanity, our safety & well-being, & our humanity!

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 1:46 p.m.

    Mike Richards, to claim you support Donald and Jesus, is an oxymoron.

    To preach to commenters about "judging" after your many, many judging posts on Obama, and your continued condemnation of Hillary even after she has been investigated and found not guilty of the nonsense that the GOP made up.

    I don't claim to be religious in all my actions and words, though because that would hypocritical, something which apparently doesn't bother evangelicals and some mormons.

  • patrioticAMERICAN South Jordan, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 1:27 p.m.

    Wrt Lincoln's "forgiveness" plea: He was killed before he could implement his plan. Instead, we got “Reconstruction”, resentment, apartheid, horrible injustices against Blacks, & a long road to the Civil Rights Act. Now our supreme leader personifies everything Lincoln fought against, despite his “claims”. And Bell thinks if we just “love”, all will be well.

    There IS too much hate rhetoric from both sides against each other. It's unproductive, but gives a false sense of power. But thinking we can overcome the cancer that's taken over our gov't & citizens, simply by loving others, is foolish & naive. Love is admirable, but this is war. War against hatred, lies & deception, injustice & abuse of power. There's a time for everything (Eccl. 3:7-8): “a time to keep silence, & a time to speak; a time to love, & a time to hate; a time of war, & a time of peace.” (hating policies & attitudes, not people) The time to speak is now. Would “love” have kept Germany from destroying Britain or Japan from destroying America? Did Moroni erect the “Title of Liberty” & call his people to “love” the “king-makers”, or to fight & expunge them? When swords aren't an option, words are all we have left.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 12:27 p.m.

    "Integrity forbids a married person from flirting with someone other than their spouse, telling lies, physically or mentally assaulting subordinates with sexual and other mistreatment or behaving toward some people one way and others differently because they are poor, a minority, a person of color, less powerful or different from us. As a society, we must instill in our children and youth these elemental values, these indispensable principles of conduct. We do this mostly by living them."

    Conservative Evangelicals and conservative Mormons overwhelmingly approve of Donald Trump. This says to me they don't care as much about sexual morality as they claim.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 12:10 p.m.

    @NoNamesAccepted;
    "Attacking republicans, Utahns, and Mormons is a poor hobby. Find something constructive to do, something to support rather than just people to hate and attack."

    I don't hate anyone. I hate hypocrisy and point out hypocrites in Utah politics, national politics and religion. If that hits too close to home with you, I can understand your uncomfortable situation and attack. Many times, people deeply entrenched in an organization or political party, don't like, or refuse to see, the poor behavior of their leaders.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Feb. 2, 2018 11:37 a.m.

    I just don't see how Trump supporters, including the evangelical right, have any moral standing at this time to write a piece like this. Are we all just supposed to pretend that Donald Trump isn't in the White House? That he isn't enabled by these groups?

    Please. Direct essays like this at Trump. Directly. By name. Hold him accountable for his many instances of sexual misconduct. Hold him accountable for his frequent lying, trolling, and contempt-filled behavior.

    Hold him accountable and then get back to us with a piece like this. Until then, please don't ask me to pretend that the orange elephant isn't smack-dab in the middle of the room.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 9:58 a.m.

    @Impartial7: "Greg Bell is describing Trump's actions. And Greg Bell supports Trump. What does that say about Bell's integrity?"

    Exactly the same thing it says about your integrity and the integrity of everyone who supported Hillary despite her history of not only victim/slut shaming but of outright attempting to destroy anyone who dared come forward after being sexually assaulted by her husband. For that matter, a whole lot of Trump haters today were and remain big fans of Bill Clinton, himself.

    Utahns did not support Donald Trump in the primary; he came in 3rd in a 2-way race. In the general election, we had no good, credible choice.

    And once elected, only a rank, partisan fool actually wants the president to fail. Oppose his policies if you dislike the policies. But to want good policies to fail over personality flaws is to cut off your own nose to spite your face. And coming from those who decry how the GOP wanted Obama to fail, it is rank hypocrisy.

    Attacking republicans, Utahns, and Mormons is a poor hobby. Find something constructive to do, something to support rather than just people to hate and attack.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Feb. 2, 2018 9:40 a.m.

    Judgment is the curse of this generation. People who are absolutely ignorant of God's hand in all things good, judge those by whom God works his miracles. God is love. God is honest. God reserves his judgment until we have completed our motal journey. We must learn to do the same.

    Christ, God's son, showed us the way when the adulterous woman was judged by others and brought before him. John recorded the incident: " Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.”

    Christ was not in the judgment business. He was in the healing business. He was in the fixing broken things business. He didn't operate his business by judging, by condemning, by finding fault in people. He operated his business by encouraging people to overcome themselves, their carnal natures, their limitations based on appetites and passions, to become better, more refined, less judgmentatl, less fault-finding, more loving people.

    We need more of Christ's charity towards all and less judgment from those who are struggling with their own appetites and passions.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Feb. 2, 2018 8:10 a.m.

    "Integrity forbids a married person from flirting with someone other than their spouse, telling lies, physically or mentally assaulting subordinates with sexual and other mistreatment or behaving toward some people one way and others differently because they are poor, a minority, a person of color, less powerful or different from us. "

    Greg Bell is describing Trump's actions. And Greg Bell supports Trump. What does that say about Bell's integrity?