Lawsuit claims university protects LGBT students by punishing religious ones

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  • EscherEnigma Ridgecrest, CA
    Jan. 30, 2018 3:19 p.m.

    @JLindow
    "Okay or not?"
    Please see "Bob Jones University vs. United States (1983)" for reference.

    The answer in that case was "Sure, but you'll lose your tax-exempt status".

  • Liberal On Planet Zion SLC, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 4:31 p.m.

    Meckofahess -

    “LOL - very funny. Your one-sided narrative does little to promote a lasting solution where the rights of all citizens are respected. You seem like a smart person - help work for a world where we can all co-exist in fairness to each other without compromising..”

    Thank you for the accurate compliment. Uncertain what you believe is funny? Possibly you can elaborate? Apparently you haven’t read the many posts regarding “one sided narratives” pertaining to those which believe “religious liberties” is freedom to discriminate against those solely based upon sexual preference. Assure you I find nothing “funny” whatsoever regarding the religious alt-right faction’s belief that it is acceptable to treat my niece in such an archaic manner. At no time have I “frowned” upon anyone practicing their religion. Are you able to say the same regarding those which live a “gay lifestyle”? We already know the answer unfortunately. Furthermore. Please cite specific examples of your “religious liberties” being negatively impacted by those which live this “gay lifestyle”. As my initial post stated...Basic constitutional law. Apparently you are unfamiliar with this topic. Thank you.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 3:05 p.m.

    @Liberal On Planet Zion:

    LOL - very funny. Your one-sided narrative does little to promote a lasting solution where the rights of all citizens are respected. You seem like a smart person - help work for a world where we can all co-exist in fairness to each other without compromising anyone's beliefs or life-style friend. Nobody will get everything they want but we can have a better world with a little give-and-take.

    You don't like us frowning upon a gay lifestyle, we don't like you frowning upon a religious life style. Got to find middle ground don't you think?

  • Liberal On Planet Zion SLC, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 3:05 p.m.

    Legal?

    “Militant perversion...how long will it take before "they" destroy our country”?

    Apologize for omitting such a bigoted statement from my initial post. My thoughts were when you mentioned “they” it was regarding the anti-equality, enabling faction. If I’m mistaken please do elaborate whom specifically are “they”. Furthermore. Thank you for supplying continued supporting evidence regarding the much needed protections for all regardless of sexual preference. “Militant perversion” was originally stated by Alex Jones at Infowars. Fake news anyone? This is the same individual which claims:

    *U.S. government involved with OKC bombing

    *Obama being born in Kenya

    *Coming New World Order is a “demonic high-tech tyranny” formed by satanist elites

    *Bill Gates is a eugenicist attempting to wipe out minorities

    *The U.S. government is controlling the weather

    *Hiliary Clinton was running a child sex ring out of a D.C. area pizza restaurant

    *The U.S. government is complicit in countless terror and lone gunman attacks

    *Millions of undocumented illegal immigrants voted in the last election

    *Glenn Beck is a C.I.A. operative

    How highly intellectual! Thank you.

  • Justiciaparatodos Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 2:58 p.m.

    @Red Corvette - St George, UT:

    You posit: "This is just yet another example of the persecution complex that the so-called "Christian" groups thrive on".

    I say hogwash - you attempt to dismiss genuine concerns that exist with an over-simplified clichÉ. Shallow thinking like that will never result in solving a real need for balancing the rights of our LGBT friends/citizens and their religious believing neighbors.

    Let's all work together to find a win-win solution between these two groups. As a religious conservative, I really want to get along and respect the rights of my LGBT friends, co-workers, and neighbors (and especially family members) but I need these great folks to try to walk a mile in my moccasins too.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 2:49 p.m.

    After carefully considering the perspective of our LGBT friends, and feeling empathy for their position I read this: "Our clients (told university officials) they couldn't change their religious beliefs or have an organization with leaders who don't support their beliefs,"

    Bam then it clicked. Business Leaders in Christ merely wants LGBT citizens to respect their policy of the requirements to be a leader in their organization. In my mind, this is tantamount to an LGBT club requiring that the president of their club must meet certain criteria including that he/she "supports their beliefs".

    I would respect the position of the LGBT club because that is a requirement they have even if it excludes a conservative like me from being selected to that position - I am OK with that.

    This is no different than allowing Boy Scout Troops sponsored by Religious organization to limit who they will permit to be leaders (in some cases this cannot be a person living in a homosexual relationship).

    The University should take a neutral position and not punish either the LGBT group or the Religious group - otherwise it amounts to discrimation against one or the other - not good!

  • JLindow St George, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 2:29 p.m.

    A quick mental exercise, change one sentence to this:

    "To be eligible for leadership positions in the group, members must affirm that relationships are reserved for members of the same race and that different races should not mix."

    Okay or not?

  • Liberal On Planet Zion SLC, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 12:41 p.m.

    “death threats, vandalism, anthrax hoax's, shaming, boycotts, putting people out of business, ....all were directed towards opponents during prop 8”.

    “Again, another case of militant gay activity”.

    “On campus groups get student fee monies all the time for all kinds of stuff..”

    “But if a person invokes their constitutionally guaranteed right of free speech to oppose perversion, they are persecuted for it”.

    “No matter how many lawsuits, or ”hissy fits” are make by the LGBTQ, I'll never drink. Stop trying to make me”!

    The low information demographic unfortunately on display once again. Any members of this anti-equality faction that are familiar with basic constitutional law? You may scream “religious liberties/freedoms” as done when faced with factual information regarding the Supreme Leader and the rhetoric of “fake news” begins. Facts..Public funds at a state university. If you disagree with the factual information involved feel free to apply to the numerous private and religious institutions throughout our country. Separation of church and state. Regardless of the Faux News attempts at spin. Your “religious freedoms” end at the discrimination of others. Period! Thank you

  • RoughRoad Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 11:50 a.m.

    How long would released-time Seminary, even in Utah, exist if leadership in LDS seminary classes was based on and contingent on the same charter criteria as this student group in Iowa. Not long, I would think. Granted, the Iowa group appears to be a public school group, not private church group. Still, to me, it is not ones orientation, but ones actions that define who a person is and what kind of leader they would be. Why can't the Iowa Student group simply divorce themselves from public funds and facilities, and thereby, they might have a greater chance of existing or at least co-existing. I would feel the same if another group had a biased charter against straight individuals, or green, purple, or martians.

    Another thing you might want President Trump to get rid of in terms of regulations is protected classes. That would allow blatant discrimination or bias much easier to get away with. Heck, lets re-write the founding documents of our country and dismiss the notion that all people are created equal.

  • Legal? Saint George, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 10:09 a.m.

    Militant perversion...how long will it take before "they" destroy our country?!

  • EscherEnigma Ridgecrest, CA
    Jan. 25, 2018 9:48 a.m.

    @NoNamesAccepted
    "So we are punishing the religious groups for their honesty in being clear about who they will allow to lead their clubs."
    What honesty? They knew the rules for student clubs when they got their charter, they get a reminder every year when they *renew* their charter, these cases have been cropping up for decades. And they chose to violate those agreed-upon rules *anyway*.

    That's not honesty.

    "I can see them trying to pack the club meeting where elections are held."
    Possible? Sure. But it doesn't actually happen.

    "Seems the homosexuals can't stand a church club even existing. Religious students leave homosexual clubs in peace."
    If having a gay person on a ballot destroys a "church club", then their faith is weak.

    @Chessermesser
    "The Iowa issue is about a gay, who wants to impose his set of values on a religious group."
    It's about a student club that violated it's agreement with the university to have all leadership positions open to all students.

    "How about if the conservative Christians join the gay club, and run for office, and destroy the club subsequently? Is that ok? Is that in the nature of fair play?"
    Yep. That's how student clubs work.

  • Chessermesser West Valley City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 7:34 a.m.

    I have seen way too many emotional comments in support of LGBT point of view, which ignore the real issue. Is it illegal to discriminate? No, everyone discriminates all the time, in the broadest sense of the word. There is some discrimination which is illegal. The Iowa case is going to be a benchmark, no matter who wins.

    The word discriminate is used inappropriately and too often by Gay militants. My religion defines me and I have a right, as afford by the Constitution, to live it. The Iowa issue is about a gay, who wants to impose his set of values on a religious group. Whose rights trump whose?

    The militant gays continue to push their agenda into every avenue of society. It is tiring. I say, live and believe what you want, but give me the same right. And the militant gay reply is always something about discriminating. How about if the conservative Christians join the gay club, and run for office, and destroy the club subsequently? Is that ok? Is that in the nature of fair play?

  • Pipes Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 7:14 a.m.

    Tolerance only applies to those on the left. If you are a member of the majority, it is ok to be discriminated against...

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 6:52 a.m.

    Religion is quick to switch from creating victims to becoming one.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Jan. 25, 2018 5:52 a.m.

    @EscherEnigma: "But you have to understand the difference between letting someone try and fail to win a leadership position (which is what would happen to an anti-gay student that tried to get a leadership position in an LGBT group), and just banning someone from trying (which is what the "Christian" group in question did).

    "The former is permissible. Necessary even. The second is impermissible and gets your club charter revoked."

    So we are punishing the religious groups for their honesty in being clear about who they will allow to lead their clubs.

    It is ok to demand club leaders have a particular viewpoint or lifestyle as long as I dishonestly pretend anyone might have a chance?

    Punishing honesty while rewarding deceit seems a bad idea. But that is just what you advocate and celebrate.

    Religious folks don't bother to try seize control of a club hostile to their beliefs. But individuals opposed to religious standards areoffended they are not embraced as leaders of church clubs. I can see them trying to pack the club meeting where elections are held.

    Seems the homosexuals can't stand a church club even existing. Religious students leave homosexual clubs in peace.

  • EscherEnigma Ridgecrest, CA
    Jan. 24, 2018 11:22 a.m.

    @TAS
    "[...] don't religious students of the U of Iowa have the same rights as those who are non religious?"
    Sure. But you have to understand the difference between letting someone try and fail to win a leadership position (which is what would happen to an anti-gay student that tried to get a leadership position in an LGBT group), and just banning someone from trying (which is what the "Christian" group in question did).

    The former is permissible. Necessary even. The second is impermissible and gets your club charter revoked.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Jan. 23, 2018 7:29 p.m.

    @Christmas;

    It's pretty arrogant to issue a "proclamation to the world". The *only* people who really care about it are Mormons. The *only* people it applies to are Mormons.

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Jan. 22, 2018 8:30 p.m.

    @Christmas wrote,

    "The Family, a Proclamation, is addressed to the world. It outlines the best way, we..can.. live. Where do you get "discrimination" out of this?"

    I don't. I get discrimination when you try to enact laws to force non-members to live by your rules. If your church tells women to wear abayas and the police department enforces that rule (as is the case in Saudi Arabia), that is discrimination. If you believe that same sex marriage is wrong, no problem, just marry an opposite sex person or don't get married. But it's discrimination when you try to pass a law which prohibits same sex marriage for everybody--members and non-members.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Jan. 22, 2018 6:16 p.m.

    @Tas;

    Of course they have the same rights; neither can discriminate against the other on the taxpayer's dime.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Jan. 22, 2018 6:08 a.m.

    @ TAS

    "...don't religious students of the U of Iowa have the same rights as those who are non religious?"

    There is no right to discriminate on the public dime. This group can have its beliefs and act on them, but they aren't entitled to use public money or accommodations to do so when some of those acts constitute discrimination under Iowa law.

    The problem with the beliefs that some hold about homosexuality is that 1) they aren't supported by the evidence; and 2) they lead to actions that cause actual harm - not just to LGBT individuals, but to their families and society as a whole. If these beliefs were benign, there'd be no problem. But they contribute to harm and for no good reason. That's why they're met with increasing intolerance. Harming people out of mere belief is unacceptable in a decent society.

  • TAS Tehachapi, CA
    Jan. 21, 2018 6:54 p.m.

    Ranch, don't religious students of the U of Iowa have the same rights as those who are non religious? I am sure they all pay the same amount of tuition, and the University has made provisions for organizations of students with common interests, then they are being discriminated against for their beliefs.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Jan. 21, 2018 6:26 p.m.

    @TAS;

    They're not telling anyone what to believe. They're just saying that if you discriminate against other students, you won't be allowed to receive tax funds (as those being discriminated against are also taxpayers). They can believe and practice whatever they want to - on their own dime.

  • TAS Tehachapi, CA
    Jan. 21, 2018 5:28 p.m.

    Isn't the University of Iowa a state supported and funded institution? Since the U S Constitution prohibits state supported religion, how can the university tell a religious organization what to believe and what not to believe? The University of Iowa is obviously in violation of the law.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Jan. 20, 2018 6:58 p.m.

    @ sashabill

    You seem to be arguing that it's mere political correctness to fail to apply anti-discrimination law against a religious person who HASN'T been accused of discriminating, but does happen to be gay, but it's being mean and hypocritical to apply this law when a complaint HAS been made against religious people who don't happen to be gay.

    You also seem to be arguing that, in order to consider myself tolerant and inclusive, I am obligated to protect groups that are intolerant and exclusive (and out of mere belief, not a reason that is evidence-based).

    I disagree on both counts.

  • sashabill Morgan Hill, CA
    Jan. 20, 2018 5:00 p.m.

    Karen R,

    "Or they're following their own law. Novel concept"

    Exactly. It appears that people are entitled to the benefits of pluralism, tolerance, inclusiveness, diversity, and minority rights -- provided that they belong to a minority or a constituency that the politically correct crowd happens to approve of. Otherwise, they're on their own.

  • EscherEnigma Ridgecrest, CA
    Jan. 20, 2018 3:22 p.m.

    Leadership positions in student c clubs are determined by democratic vote. So you only *need* to ban someone from a position if a majority of your cohort would *vote* for them.

    That is to say, a "ban" served one of two purposes. (1) Publicly condemning someone that has no chance of winning anyway, or (2) the current leadership trying to force their opinions on future students.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Jan. 20, 2018 2:26 p.m.

    @ sashabill

    "In other words, the university is now picking and choosing ( discriminating) between various forms of Christianity -- favoring some over others?"

    Or they're following their own law. Novel concept.

  • sashabill Morgan Hill, CA
    Jan. 20, 2018 1:53 p.m.

    Karen R,
    " Stories elsewhere report that he has started his own Jesus-centered student organization and that it is recognized by the university . . . because it doesn't discriminate."

    In other words, the university is now picking and choosing ( discriminating) between various forms of Christianity -- favoring some over others?

    "There are about as many definitions for "true Christian" as there are Christians." If it is all just a matter of "opinion", then where (or on what grounds) does the university get off with favoring one Christian opinion over another Christian opinion?

    In actual practice,"Non-discrimination" is apparently designed to benefit those groups and perspectives that the "politically correct" community happens to take a liking to. This is the very definition of discrimination -- and hypocrisy.

  • majmajor Layton, UT
    Jan. 20, 2018 1:21 p.m.

    I compare this to any organization on campus. I would look at how does the university treat any atheist, Muslim, Jewish, Christian.. organization that limited parties from joining or participating due to an individual’s belief system.

    Do any of the other student organizations limit leadership to their own beliefs, or to their academic major? If so, those organizations will need to be banned also.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Jan. 20, 2018 10:18 a.m.

    Chessermesser said:

    "This sort of anti-religious activity is going to continue until some judge says ‘enough’."

    --- The ONLY LGBT people who would even WANT to join this group are LGBT Christians; so they're clearly not "anti-religious".

    @sashabill;

    As I pointed out to CM;

    --- The ONLY LGBT people who would even WANT to join this group are LGBT Christians; so no, they're not being hypocrites in their attempts to join.

    @NoNamesAccepted;

    These people are not "avoiding events they find offensive"; they're excluding PEOPLE they find offensive. There is a difference - especially when those PEOPLE are Christians themselves. These LGBT Christians are NOT asking this group to engage in gay relationships.

    @Christmas;

    California almost had a ballot initiative allowing CHRISTIANS to KILL LGBT citizens in cold blood. Yes, that was actually proposed by a "Christian". We've had our homes and properties vandalized. We even had YOU people voting on our civil rights!! Yes, that was what you did in prop-8. Now we have CHRISTIANS trying to enact laws to DISCRIMINATE against us in public. You have no right to complain.

  • CMTM , 00
    Jan. 20, 2018 8:53 a.m.

    RE: Karen R. "But I'm happy to change my mind if you can prove that your definition is THE definition."OK

    '(John 3:7) (Jesus) “You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again(anothen /From above).

    Amazing Grace. “For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.” (Eph 2:8-9-)

    He has saved (Christians)us and called us with a holy calling, not because of our own works, but by His own purpose and by the grace He granted us in Christ Jesus before time eternal.( 2 Tim 1:9)

  • Roadside Philosopher Fayette, UT
    Jan. 20, 2018 7:00 a.m.

    I personally can not see a need to get upset about who a person loves... it seems the hate part is the problem.
    Official-unofficial ying/yang does it matter?
    I cannot officially go in the men’s locker room. Is that exclusion based on sex? Yes!
    VisaVersa.
    Not everyone is going to be treated fair. This is not a fair world. If the core belief is Only brunettes have brains club, somebody is going to be excluded. That is the nature of clubs, to get together and focus on a core belief. Sometimes with that belief concentrated on you realize that it isn’t true...or not. It is a matter of individual choice and the process of learning. Talk, don’t yell. Communicate, don’t attack or defend. Was the dress blue/black or white/gold? Perception is an individual issue. You shouldn’t have to legislate thoughts.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    Jan. 20, 2018 5:23 a.m.

    This group isn't being prevented from existing and no one is telling them they can't believe what they do. The group is only being prevented from dipping its hand into the public till or using publicly-funded facilities while discriminating against others. This is what certain religious folk are seeking: to have their cake and to eat it too. Which is why I support two organizations that fight for church-state separation.

    @ stanfunky

    "But when a gay non-religious man..."

    The student that filed the complaint is a Christian. Stories elsewhere report that he has started his own Jesus-centered student organization and that it is recognized by the university...because it doesn't discriminate.

    @ Christmas

    "...any true follower of Jesus Christ..."

    There are about as many definitions for "true Christian" as there are Christians. That sounds like a strong case for "opinion" to me. But I'm happy to change my mind if you can prove that your definition is THE definition.

  • Christmas South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 7:38 p.m.

    Ranchhand, death threats, vandalism, anthrax hoax's, shaming, boycotts, putting people out of business, ....all were directed towards opponents during prop 8. Can you provide a citation where conservatives, and religious people showed this kind of display when same-sex marriage became law across the nation?

    "Conservative Christians spent DECADES denying rights to LGBT people."

    Can you provide citation's that show this is true? gay marriage was not even an issue up until five years ago.

    "The religious want to be able to discriminate against LGBT citizens , they just don't want to face discrimination themselves."

    Do you really believe this is the reason why certain religious organizations oppose lgbt issues, or could there be another explanation? An LDS example: The Family, a Proclamation, is addressed to the WORLD, not one specific group. It outlines the best way, we as Spirit children of God, can safely and healthily live in a society the way God intended. Where do you get "discrimination" out of this?

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 7:03 p.m.

    If people would just treat people respect these type of arguments could be avoided.

  • Christmas South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 6:08 p.m.

    This article talks about "identities", but fails to point out that any true follower of Jesus Christ, who believes the Bible to be the word of God, acknowledges that every person who has lived, is living, and will live on this earth, is a Spirit Child of God. That is our true identity. The world teaches you can invent your own "identity" based on "feelings", outward appearances, whatever is "popular". This is false.

    Numbers 16:22 ...."God of the spirits of all flesh"
    Job 32:8... " There is a spirit in man"
    Ecclesiastes 12:7... " the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
    Ephesians 4:6..." One God and Father of all"

    Laura Bilington
    "are you saying that somebody has the right to overrule the majority?"

    Who do you think overruled the majority in California over prop 8? If it's okay for somebody on the left to do it, then it must be okay....

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Jan. 19, 2018 5:03 p.m.

    @NoNames, I don't know any Democratic student club that requires that members sign a loyalty oath. Do you? And if a Republican member of a Democratic student club gets the majority of the votes, why shouldn't s/he be president? The majority voted him in; are you saying that somebody has the right to overrule the majority?

    "Avoiding events one finds offensive is not discrimination."

    What "events" are talking about avoiding? This is a campus club announcing in advance that someone may not be eligible to be an officer of the club--because said person refuses to discriminate against LGBT people. How do you go from there to "avoiding events"?

    I asked for examples of specific campus groups who refuse to admit let people be officers if they don't meet a particular racial or political or religions or sexual orientation. You provided zero. Speculating vaguely about Hispanic student groups and who they might elect is not documentation. Give me the name of the group and college and dates. SWE is not a campus group, and I doubt that they have hangups about admitting men anyway. Please provide documentation if you disagree.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 4:40 p.m.

    @RanchHand: "The religious want to be able to discriminate against LGBT citizens, they just don't want to face discrimination themselves."

    That isn't true. Avoiding events one finds offensive is not discrimination. I afford that right to all. Expecting leaders of clubs to support club beliefs is not discrimination.

    A homosexual club should not be forced to accept into leadership someone who thinks homosexual conduct is sinful, offensive, or harmful.

    @Laura Bilington: "Please give me some examples."

    I did. Most college campuses host any number of student clubs based on political beliefs/affiliations, race, or gender.

    Show me the SWE (society of women engineers) branch that has male leadership. Or the Hispanic campus organization that has non-Hispanic leadership. Name the campus democrats or young republicans club that has in leadership someone not affiliated with and espousing the platform of the named political party.

    You will not find a homosexual club that has accepted into leadership someone who thinks homosexual conduct is sinful or offensive.

    But Christian groups get shut down for expecting leaders to live the values of the club. That is discriminatory.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 4:12 p.m.

    Religious belief later becoming widely acknowledged as discrimination is not new. The details of faith have changed, over time.

    For example, if you were to interview conservative Christians today if slavery was supported by the Bible and the teachings of Jesus, it would be stunning if any agreed. Yet that was the predominant view among Christians, leading up to the Civil War.

    Similarly, devoutly religious folks led opposition to the drive for womens suffrage, based on Biblical understandings of the roles of men & women, and what was best for families, and for society. If a religious person today were to insist that women shouldn't be allowed to vote, most would agree that would be advocating discrimination.

    (It doesn't make these cases cut-and-dried to deal with today, but the general topic has been dealt with, over & over, in our history.)

  • sashabill Morgan Hill, CA
    Jan. 19, 2018 4:07 p.m.

    RanchHand, Discriminating against religious groups on campuses (while professing to believe in pluralism, tolerance, diversity, and minority rights) is the definition of "Hypocrisy."

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 3:01 p.m.

    @Fair Flower;

    This particular "hissy fit" (your words) is being thrown by the Religious, not the LGBT community. You can believe whatever you want, that still doesn't make you correct. And NOBODY is trying to make you "drink" (i.e, become LGBT).

    @RG;

    Aren't you in favor of ACTUAL discrimination aginst LGBT customers by so-called "religious" businesses?

    "Do you really treat religious freedom and religious beliefs so lightly?"

    --- That is what conservatives did when they DENIED churches the right to perform marriages for their LGBT members by passing Prop-8 and other such amendments.

    @Chessermesser;

    Conservative Christians spent DECADES denying rights to LGBT people. What do you have to say about that?

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 2:53 p.m.

    The religious want to be able to discriminate against LGBT citizens, they just don't want to face discrimination themselves. Isn't that the definition of the word 'Hypocrisy'?

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Jan. 19, 2018 2:35 p.m.

    NoNamesAccepted writes, "On campus groups get student fee monies all the time for all kinds of stuff that would not be permissible otherwise."

    Please give me some examples. I'm fascinated about what you mean by "stuff that would not be permissible otherwise" which, you claim, is funded by student monies.

    And it's not just "student monies". Every public college in this country receives state and federal support. Tuition doesn't begin to cover the costs of running the colleges.

    I've never heard of a Democratic campus club which prohibited R students from holding office. Have you? Documentation, please.

    And Black Student Union groups have had white members AND white officers. If they are voted in for an office, they're officers, regardless of color.

    "But it seems we are no longer allowed to peacefully hold religious beliefs that homosexual conduct is immoral or otherwise contrary to God's commands. It isn't enough to peacefully disagree ...Anyone or any group holding such beliefs must be banished from the public square."

    Believe whatever you want to believe. As long as you keep your hand out of the public till.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 2:21 p.m.

    "To be eligible for leadership positions in the group, members must affirm that sexual relationships are reserved for heterosexual marriage and that people should embrace their God-given sex"

    In other words, members must uphold the teachings of the New Testament. What an idea.

  • Misty Mountain Kent, WA
    Jan. 19, 2018 2:20 p.m.

    @stanfunky wrote,

    "Funny thing - fraternities and sororities have a Title IX exclusion and don't have to obey federal law."

    They also don't get public funding that the other student groups get.

    @RG wrote,

    "Do you really think that someone opposed to the mission of the club should be able to be its leader?"

    The stated mission of Business Leaders in Christ is to serve and support students "of faith" who intend to have careers in the business world. The implication of the statement of affirmation is that any person "of faith" would automatically support that particular belief about gay and trans people.

    This is obviously not true. Some Christians are LGBT and some other Christians are straight people who believe in equal rights for LGBTs. It sounds like neither of them are welcome in this group.

    Which doesn't mean the group can't exist. It just can't tap the public coffers for money.

  • Chessermesser West Valley City, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 2:20 p.m.

    Again, another case of militant gay activity. The student wanted confrontation. Gay rights have ascendency over all others. That is just plain wrong. Playground bullying.

    Conservative Christians have rights, too. This sort of anti-religious activity is going to continue until some judge says ‘enough’. It’s going to invade every walk of life.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 2:10 p.m.

    On campus groups get student fee monies all the time for all kinds of stuff that would not be permissible otherwise.

    The college Democrats are not going to let Republicans or Libertarians hold office in their club. The Republicans are not interested in Democrats being in leadership positions in the campus GOP club.

    The on campus Black Student Union is probably fine if a few white guys want to attend their meetings or parties. But you're not going to find a white or Asian man serving as an officer in that organization.

    The on-campus pro-choice organization is not going to have a pro-lifer as its president.

    Christian organizations often exclude Mormons from leadership as they do not consider LDS to be Christian. I've never heard of a Mormon suing or filing a complaint. The Mormon just joins the LDS Student Association.

    But it seems we are no longer allowed to peacefully hold religious beliefs that homosexual conduct is immoral or otherwise contrary to God's commands. It isn't enough to peacefully disagree and perhaps disassociate. Anyone or any group holding such beliefs must be banished from the public square.

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Jan. 19, 2018 1:57 p.m.

    The student group requires more than the affirmation about sex and identity which was written about here--they also require a statement of belief in Christian doctrine. In other words, a religious requirement.

    How is that different from a church? The groups receive taxpayer money. Should the good citizens of Iowa pay taxes to subsidize churches?

    The group says it serves persons "of faith"---as long as they belong to the same faith as whoever wrote that requirement. There are millions of LGBT persons who believe in Christian doctrine, but they are apparently not the right variety of Christian. I suspect this particular group would not accept an LDS student, either.

  • RG Buena Vista, VA
    Jan. 19, 2018 1:24 p.m.

    No, Red Corvette, you got that wrong. This story was not about someone's fantasy of being discriminated against, it was about actual discrimination. Therefore, not a "persecution complex." Do you really think that someone opposed to the mission of the club should be able to be its leader? Do you really treat religious freedom and religious beliefs so lightly?

  • FatherOfFour WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 1:25 p.m.

    If the groups was a Muslim group also seeking to push their own agenda would the same people here be supporting their religious rights?

  • Red Corvette St George, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 1:17 p.m.

    This is just yet another example of the persecution complex that the so-called "Christian" groups thrive on.

  • Fair Flower Layton, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 12:56 p.m.

    It's like taking a horse to water. You can't make them drink. Because of my religious beliefs, I'll never think that gay behavior and marriage is right. I, also, believe that I should follow the law of the land. Therefore, I have no desire to be cruel or unkind to anyone. No matter how many lawsuits, or hissy fits are make by the LGBTQ, I'll never drink. Stop trying to make me.

  • bamafone Salem, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 12:38 p.m.

    Can't go wrong with freedom of speech and freedom of religion, its just what the founders envisioned. Way to much thought and speech police in this great country of ours. hope they win!

  • James E Tooele, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 11:22 a.m.

    Obviously this is crazy, but I have a simple solution: stop funding these stupid clubs.

    How many of these Students-Who-Identify-as-Popcorn clubs would exist without funds mandated [extorted] from tuition? If the students in the club had to foot the bill the market would decide which ones survive and which ones were merely propaganda.

  • Br. Jones East Coast, MD
    Jan. 19, 2018 11:11 a.m.

    If a religious group's statement of faith is in conflict with a university code of conduct, they may not be able to meet as an official group or receive funding from the school, but they can meet informally. When I was in college, our LDS student group refused to sign a similar statement of non-discrimination, so for years our group was unofficial. After some leadership changes permitted us to become "official"--nothing changed. We got a token amount of money that we used to throw an open house event, and that was it. Still met in the same place for Institute that we did before.

    People would be viewing this very differently if a Muslim student group was refused recognition for the same reason--there probably wouldn't be a peep about it from these folks who are raising a ruckus now.

  • TJ Eagle Mountain, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 11:03 a.m.

    It is OK to stomp religious freedom( a constitutionally guaranteed right) into the ground. But if a person invokes their constitutionally guaranteed right of free speech to oppose perversion, they are persecuted for it.
    How is this fair or just?

  • sashabill Morgan Hill, CA
    Jan. 19, 2018 10:46 a.m.

    This is an example of why I contribute in support of the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty, and will continue to do so.

  • stanfunky Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 19, 2018 10:38 a.m.

    Funny how the argument would be viewed very differently if reversed:

    If a straight Christian male, highly religious, wanted to be a president of a rollicking campus fraternity without pledging or abiding by their rules, he would be shown the door and it wouldn't make a bit of noise in the media.

    But when a gay non-religious man wishes to head up a Christian religious club, and is turned down, he sues and it goes all over the media as a constitutional and legal brouhaha.

    Funny thing - fraternities and sororities have a Title IX exclusion and don't have to obey federal law...