RE: Kevin J. Kirkham. Sola Scriptura. Check *The Nicene Creed (with Scripture
references).The Southern Baptist church(non creedal) has a
Statement of Faith. E.g.., God.
The eternal triune God reveals Himself to
us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but
without division of nature, essence, or being.RE: kvnsmnsn There
are five main forms or sects of Judaism . Orthodox, Conservative, Reformed,
Reconstructionist, and Humanistic. A short list of the traditional beliefs of
Judaism would include God is the creator of all that exists; He is one,
incorporeal (without a body). (John 4:24).God [is] spirit. (
*pneuma hο theos). There is ‘*no article’ in the Greek text
before the word spirit, and that emphasizes the quality or essence of the word.
The word spirit occurs first in the sentence for emphasis. The literal idea
would be something like, “Absolutely spirit in His essence is
God.” Jesus did not leave any doubt about this truth. God(The
Father)= spirit! E.g
Lectures On Faith(JS) Q. What Is the
Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power=[spirit]. (5:2.)Q. What is
the Son? A. First, he is a personage of tabernacle. (5:2.) .
Sharrona posted:=RE: LV BYU fan’ 1.Jesus addresses God in
prayer. The answer to this, as well as=to all references to Jesus as being
tired or hungry
, etc is that Jesus was a=true man, as well as
God.That doesn't answer LV BYU fan's question. Was Jesus
talking to Himself, or was He talking to someone other than Himself?=God(the father is Spirit)Sharrona, are you saying that God the
Father is a spirit? If so, He would be a holy spirit, since He's God the
Father, and in fact He would be THE holy spirit, because He's God the
Father. So there you have it, God the Father is the Holy Spirit, and the Trinity
is reduced to a Binity. The fact that there are three members of the Trinity /
Godhead is evidence to me that God the Father is NOT a spirit.
What I find funny is that one of the reasons that traditional Christianity gives
for LDS not being Christian is that we don't believe in a closed canon, yet
they elevate the Nicene and Athanasian Creeds to the level of scripture and
since we don't believe them, we are dismissed. Sola Scriptura!
If you question that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
are Christians then investigate! Their doctrinal/theological reasoning is
strong and based on sound principles. Hamblin, B. (2012, August
31). Are Mormons Christians?
RE: LV BYU fan’ 1.Jesus addresses God in prayer. The answer to this, as
well as to all references to Jesus as being tired or hungry
, etc is that
Jesus was a true man, as well as God." In the beginning was the Word, and
the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . and the word became flesh and
dwelt among us," (John 1:1, 14}The second Person of the Trinity,
God the Son, took upon Himself complete humanity, except for our sinful nature.
He is has two natures, divine and human—the God-man. (Phil 2:5-11) The
Kenosis.God(the father is Spirit) Visible signs of God's
presence are known as the Shekinah Glory, or dwelling place of God. This special
light is a visible manifestation of divine majesty. His presence was manifested
by the intense light that filled the Tabernacle, the Temple in Jerusalem and
even in the Transfiguration on the Mount where Jesus shone brighter than the sun
when He spoke with Moses and Elijah. “God says that ‘no
one‘(JS) can look at God and live” (Ex 33:20)
(Moses)endured, as seeing him who is invisible (Heb 11:27)2.“
in later(days) times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits
and things taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:)
This is a perfect illustration of why Mitt Romney had no chance in 2012,
evangelicals are not going to vote for a LDS person any time soon.Having grown up in the South and serving a mission there as well and living
there as an adult for 6 years this is a discussion I have had literally
thousands of times. Here are three quick observations.1. The doctrine of
the trinity is not a doctrine believed or understood (if possible) by protestant
members, only by paid clergy. In discussion with clergy just ask one question.
Whom was Jesus praying to? Easy answer if you are LDS, complicated and very
confusing if you are protestant clergy.2. Speaking generally they are
stunned at how successful the LDS Church is at attracting new members and how
members support the church with time and money.3. Their financial model
is failing. They are losing members and financial support.When
their livelihood is threatened, the clergy responds irrationally.
(understandably)I expect this devolution to continue, as they feel
continual and increasing financial pressure. It is always enlightening to
follow the money.
Eventially we shall see.
Kvnsmnsn. “Why LDS don't believe in the Trinity.” No
exaltation. E. g
.,Partaking of the Divine Nature-image The
Orthodox(Christian) Church understands theosis as a union with the energies of
God and Not with the essence of God which always remains hidden and unknown.
However, the experience of the Church testifies that this is a true union with
God. Orthodox Christians believe there are three persons in the Godhead, each
divine, distinct and equal. The Father God is the eternal head; the Son is
begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Our full
union with God is a union with the "energies" of God. These energies,
while an extension of God, are not to be confused with the "essence" or
"substance" of God, which is unknown by humans and is shared only by the
Holy Trinity. Our union with God will Not make us gods but will make us
partners in the Divine nature in works not in essence. We will Not acquire the
unique characteristics of such as being the Creator, the Omnipresence,
Self-existence,(aseity). by Mark Shuttleworth”(2Peter
1:4).“... so that through them you may participate=(koinnos/*communion
.=The Apostles Creed/The communion of Saints.
CMTM posted:=Catholic Dictionary: The nature of God as mentally
distinguished from the=persons and the attributes of God. Thus each of the
three divine persons has=one and the same essence. And the different
attributes of God are objectively=identical with the divine essence....=RE Irenaeus in175-185 taught Trinitarian theology. Three distinct
entities=named Father, Son, and Spirit, eternally united through one
divine and=spiritual nature.Yeah. Okay. So far I still
don't see anything inconsistent with LDS theology. So I guess I'm
still wondering why Joseph Smith said Latter-day Saints don't believe in
@KevinSim"And reality is that there is no truth anywhere in
religion?"There is plenty of 'truth' in religion but only as
much as it happens to coincides with reality. Do unto others is good. The parts
of the bible which describe how to treat your slaves is bad. "That there isn't a God in control of the universe?"Right.
I dont believe for one minute that the god of the bible exists. I do find it
funny that you 'know' that the thousands of other gods men have made
up are false but the one you happened to be taught as a child is totally real.
"Rather than worry about that future generation, I think
it's a lot more productive to try to find out the will of God in our lives,
so that we can work in concert with God toward the preservation, forever, of
some good things."Again, I dont believe your deity exists so I cant
'work in concert' with a nonexistent entity. And I don find it funny
that you will and 'his will' coincide so frequently.
The differences have their origin in the Nicene (and other) creeds. Mormons
retain Early Christians' beliefs in baptism by immersion of youth by their
fathers, a lay clergy, proxy baptism for deceased ancestors, a tripartite
Godhead (two with physical bodies), theosis or divinization (Eternal Life),
esoteric temple ordinances, Celestial marriage, etc. Athanasius spearheaded
the destruction of hundreds of inspired writings and retained only the 22 found
in the New Testament canon. Fortunately, some of these inspired writings were
discovered in the 1950s in Nag Hammadi, and they verify that LDS teachings are
those of the Early Christian Fathers. Mohler believes in Creedal Christianity,
LDS believe in the Christianity of the New Testament era.
RE: KevinSim "one in essence" actually means? Catholic
Dictionary: The nature of God as mentally distinguished from the persons and the
attributes of God. Thus each of the three divine persons has one and the same
essence. And the different attributes of God are objectively identical with the
divine essence. e.g...,The Son is the radiance of his glory and the
representation of his *essence
(Heb 1:3 NET)*hypostais, in
Christian Trinitarian doctrine each of the three persons of the Trinity, as
contrasted with the unity of the Godhead.RE Irenaeus in175-185
taught Trinitarian theology. Three distinct entities named Father, Son, and
Spirit, eternally united through one divine and spiritual nature. Before the
Nicene Creed of 325.“Immanent and Transcendent, In Christian
theology, God(the Father) is transcendent, who cannot be approached or seen in
essence or being, becomes immanent in the God-man Jesus the Christ, who is the
incarnate Second Person of the Trinity. Christ and the Holy Spirit immanently
reveal themselves, God the Father only reveals himself immanently vicariously
through the Son and Spirit, and the Divine Nature.
does the protestant reformation of the 1500+AD "simply fails every major
test of historic Christian orthodoxy." ? just wonderin'. they were
the organizations claiming to going back to the root of christian orthodoxy.christianity is so exclusive: yes i am no you're not yes i am no
There were roughly 9 versions of the 1st vision. In Joseph Smith's 1st
version (not recorded until 12 years after he said it took place in 1832), he
only mentions The Lord. It was not until years later he included 2 personages.
why I recommend listening to different things - hearing more accurate
representation of what someone says: "The Dawn of The Restoration" on
YouTube by Truman G. Madsen
CMTM and Sharrona, could you tell me whether traditional Christians consider
Seventh-day Adventists to be Christian? And Christian Universalists? If so, then
I think it's incredibly ironic that Christians distinguish themselves from
Latter-day Saints over belief in the Trinity (and several other points of
doctrine that I consider minor), and yet they unite themselves with these two
churches with whom they disagree over whether God at some point in time puts an
end to the extreme suffering of the unsaved. Talk about straining at a gnat and
then swallowing a camel!On the other hand, if traditional Christians
DON'T consider those two groups Christian, then all I've got to say is
that I'm kind of glad I'm not considered part of that brand of
Sharrona posted:=Another look into the Trinity shows a dialogue
during the period of creation.=God speaks to God saying, “Let Us
make man in Our image, according to Our=likeness”. It is significant
because this isn’t true of any other created=thing. Only man is
created in the(moral) image of God.I'm aware that Joseph Smith
said Latter-day Saints don't believe in the Trinity. After all I've
heard about the Trinity, I'm kind of surprised that Smith understood the
Trinity well enough to be able to determine whether we should believe in it or
not! It all seems to come down to the idea of "one in essence."
Believers in the Trinity believe that God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy
Spirit, are one in essence. Does anybody on this forum have any clue what
"one in essence" actually means?
Thomas Jefferson posted:=My hope for the planet is that everyone can
leave the fantasy behind and deal=with reality on its terms.And reality is that there is no truth anywhere in religion? That there
isn't a God in control of the universe? And never will be? If that's
true, then I think it's safe to say that nothing good will last forever,
and it's also pretty clear to me that the human race in particular will not
last forever. That means that there will be one generation of the human race
that doesn't reproduce. Thomas Jefferson, what is your conscientious
obligation to that last generation of the human race?Rather than
worry about that future generation, I think it's a lot more productive to
try to find out the will of God in our lives, so that we can work in concert
with God toward the preservation, forever, of some good things.
CMTM posted:=Therefore the one Sun shows itself as triune, sunlight
and heat yet one=substance or essence, as its splendid in its unity and
oneness. How much more=the Creator of the sun is splendid and One in his
unity and oneness in his=triune being. We therefore believe in One God in
three divine persons, great is=the mystery of this unity.CMTM,
is this really a description of how the Trinity works? If it is, then I'm
very surprised. If a court were trying to determine the truth of some item, and
the light from the Sun was brought to the witness stand to help determine it,
and then the mentioned light was excused and the heat from the Sun was brought
to the witness stand to corroborate the former testimony, that would be an abuse
of justice; the Sun cannot corroborate itself. And yet John 8:17-18 quotes Jesus
as saying, "It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is
true. / I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me
beareth witness of me." It looks pretty clear to me in this verse that Jesus
is saying that He and His Father are indeed two. They're one, yes, but
they're also two.
I live in the south. I will tell you that many evangelicals say these things
because they are hemmoraging members and not finding new ones. The only have
fear to try to get you to switch over "we won't go to heaven
together" etc. They are losing people to apathy/agnosticism, the big rock
band just show up once a month and here's a smoothie churches, and
Mormonism. They are panicking.
"...He declared the LDS Church should not be considered a Christian
denomination as it "simply fails every major test of historic Christian
orthodoxy."If there's a test I think it only has one
question on it: Do you believe in Jesus Christ? I'm a member of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and yes, I do believe in Him
and recognize that He is the way, the truth, and the life. It is ONLY through
His grace that I can be saved. Because of this grace I am led to attempt in any
small way I can to perform good works. That doesn't mean I think that my
works somehow merit His grace. It's the other way around...His magnificent
grace changes who I am and makes me a better person.
"in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"That is similar to a decree that begins "In the name of the King, of
the Queen, and the Princes of the Kingdom..."Obviously there is
no supposition that the various entities referred to must somehow be a single
being. All it is referring to is the body that holds the authority in the
kingdom.And the Godhead, consisting of three separate beings, is the
body that holds authority over all creation.[To be clear, I am using
the word 'body' as 'a group of individuals organized for some
purpose, ie. governmental body, legislative body']
RE: Twin Lights ( D&C 20:28). "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one
God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen." E.g
taught the triu-nity. “
true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son,
and of the Holy Ghost, which is *one God.”(2 Nephi 31:21) (**1John 5:7-8
JST& KJV verse 7. one= (G.*heis, the #1).(3 Nephi 11:36) And
thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto
him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
(3Nephi 11:36)**see footnotes on 3 Nephi 11:32 a 1John 5:7-8 KJV.@Analogy. We see the Sun through its light. In the same way, as we behold the
Father through the Son, and heat is something we feel, and the Holy Spirit is
the Comforter, he is the presence we feel that supports us and gives us
consolations and gifts.Therefore the one Sun shows itself as triune,
sunlight and heat yet one substance or essence, as its splendid in its unity and
oneness. How much more the Creator of the sun is splendid and One in his unity
and oneness in his triune being. We therefore believe in One God in three divine
persons, great is the mystery of this unity.
I respect anyone that believes in Christ, and many people of other spiritual
beliefs are commended for living to the best moral understanding they have.To say Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are
political allies with Evangelicals, might be a confusing statement at this point
in history. Because Certain prominent Evangelicals have written about and
endorsed Trump as a prophet or prophetic. Still respecting Evangelicals, this
factor would have me worried that society is seeing Christianity as
hypocritical.We all know that prophets were not perfect, but I am
discouraged that any one can merge that political concept together w/the most
basic of Christian tenants.
When I visit my families in Texas, I listen to various evangelical radio
stations. Joseph Smith and Mormons are frequently mentioned in their
condemnations as part of evil forces that will never be accepted in heaven. As
LDS members, we as-a-matter-of-factly declare there is no other true church but
us. Doctrines and all! Any bible thumber who hears that will not excitedly jump
into the fray and join us as an ally. As long as doctrines and teachings are
different, attitudes toward us will remain the same.
This business about the trinity misses the whole point of true Christianity--
repenting and coming to Christ. D&C 10:67-68 #stayontarget #loveandservehim
I have read the NT attempting to find the Trinity advocated in the Council of
Nicaea. I cannot find it. Other than a few oblique references, the totality,
and especially Christ's own words, show Christ to be fully differentiated
from the Father.Such a key doctrine should be explicitly described
in the NT - most likely by Christ himself (he could explain anything to
anybody). Instead, I find separate individuals.
Evangelicals seem to focus almost entirely on theology in determining who is (or
is not ) a Christian, and very little on personal character. By that standard,
the priest and the Levite (the two who passed by on the other side of the road
and did not stop to help the injured traveler) will be the ones going to heaven,
since they presumably had the "right" theology.Conversely,
the Samaritan (who did stop and take the initiative to help the injured
traveler) is nonetheless condemned to eternal Hell, since he had the
Mormons shouldn't be considered Christians because they depart from
orthodox Christianity? I can't believe people still think that being since
the name is in the title of the Church. What is departing from orthodox
Christianity, actually believing in Christ? Thats what a Christian is. This guy
doesn't know what Latter Day Saints actually believe, because that is what
our whole doctrine is based on, Jesus Christ. I am a Mormon and I glad to call
myself a Christian even if others don't.
The only one that will decide who is and isn't christian is Jesus
Christ.If He is satisfied that I am christian, then I won't be
concerned about any other opinion.
@Impartial7[@George C Thomas;" I can with some authority
say that the LDS faith does not disbelieve anything the Bible teaches. "Ummm. Mormons reject grace as a pathway to heaven, for works instead.
Mormons reject the Trinity. Both, mainstays of Christianity. Also, Easter, not
Christmas, is the most honored day in Christianity. But, when Easter falls on
Conference weekend, it is all but ignored by mormons. This is in direct
conflict with your statement.]How about... the LDS faith does not
intend to disbelieve anything the Bible teaches? That leaves aside the back and
forth about which denomination is right about certain things and just focuses on
the main point which I think was "LDS members believe in the Bible".
Having read through Albert Mohler's talk, I can see where people get very
wrong-headed ideas about Mormons. Mohler says Mormons don't believe in the
Trinity, which he calls the "most basic doctrine of Christianity".
Well, if the Trinity is indeed the most basic doctrine of Christianity, well,
that sounds like we fail the test. However, we do believe in the Father, the
Son, and the Holy Ghost as described in the New Testament. We believe that
Jesus prayed to the Father, and that He sent the Holy Ghost as another
comforter. All that gives the lie to Mohler's claim that we worship a
different Jesus than Christians do. Where traditional Christianity goes astray,
in the Mormon perspective, is to insist that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are
three ways of looking at one incomprehensible deity called the Trinity. Then
you start wondering, well, who did Jesus pray to? What happened to His body
after his resurrection? What does it even mean to be resurrected? What does it
mean to follow Jesus' example? It all begins to sound like a philosophical
concept rather than a reality that we can relate to.
I often find myself on message boards sticking up for Mormons when evangelicals
try to claim they are not christian, as if it is up to evangelicals to decide.
If someone tells me they are christian then I have no choice but to believe
them. But not a day goes by when I am not happy I left all religious hokum
behind. These arguments on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin just
reinforce that happiness. My hope for the planet is that everyone can leave the
fantasy behind and deal with reality on its terms.
RE: teeoh . Deut 6:4 uses "echad", the word for a unified one between
individuals. This laid the ground work for the Trinity to be revealed in Christ
and his apostles who could look back to the important Jewish Bible verse and
show them Jesus was there too! “Another look into the Trinity
shows a dialogue during the period of creation. God speaks to God saying,
“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness”. It is
significant because this isn’t true of any other created thing. Only man
is created in the(moral) image of God. (Gen 1:26 LXX) Verse let
*OUR =(hÉmeteros)’image’. 27 God
made man, according to the image ’of God’**=( Theou)..*plural
**singular. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his
person(substance, 5287).Heb 1:3C.S Lewis,” If Christianity
was something we were making up, of course we would make it easier. But it is
not. We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions.
How could we? We are dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has
no facts to bother about." The three personal God “Mere Christianity.
Lewis gives some other analogies of the Tri(3) Unity.
I have spent a lot of time looking into different church (church shopping). I
would say that from a theology stand point, LDS is not a Christian Church. The
main reason being, Evangelicals and other protestant groups consider each other
Christian and tend to rally around each other. When they talk about "The
Church" at say a Presbyterian church, they mean all Christian churches,
including the Episcopal church down the street. When LDS people say
"The Church," they mean the LDS church and not the other Christian
churches around them. So when Evangelicals say they aren't Christian, they
are talking about the shared commonality they feel with other Christian sects. I
have even had some Evangelicals tell me they don't consider the Catholic
Church, to be apart of their Christian "Church," or their Christianity.
I consider the LDS Church to be a Christ centered church, built on
Christ's teachings, but not a Christian Church- they aren't apart of
the club. In many ways the LDS church probably doesn't want to be apart of
the Christian Church network, it would loose its uniqueness.
My sweet grandmother was Relief Society president in a small Utah town for 37
years. She served people endlessly, tending the sick, feeding the elderly, even
sending big batches of clothing to the victims of World War II in Europe. Mr. Mohler says my Mormon grandmother isn't going to the same
heaven as he is. I would be willing to bet that is true. As for me, I hope to
follow Grandma--wherever she is...
Impartial7. Your response to my comment, again proves my point. What you think
we believe is simply not true. I dont know you, but I love you as a brother or
sister and will continue in my private and public life to help my protestant and
LDS family better understand eachother. I so appreciate your thoughts and
perspective. Thanks everyone for the honest dialogue.
Mormons are not Evangelicals - but they are definitely Christians. Evangelicals
are not Mormons - but they also are definitely Christians. Mormons and
Evangelicals interpret the scriptures differently as do the Catholics and
Non-evangelical Protestants - but we are all still Christians because we all
believe in and worship our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This claim by some
Evangelicals that Mormons are not Christians is simply not true and seems a bit
ridiculous. I don't understand why they are so determined to hold on to
this idea and/or why do they care if Mormons claim to be Christian? How does
that harm them?
@sharrona - semantically speaking, the phrase "in the name of the Father,
and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" indicates the individuality of the
three because of the of word "of" before each. The purpose of the 2nd
and 3rd "of" is to replace "the name of" in the subsequent
phrases. It's the same as saying "in the name of the Father, and (the
name) of the Son, and (the name) of the Holy Spirit"If the 2nd
and 3rd "of" were absent, then you would have a point (semantically
speaking).Regardless of semantics, there are plenty of non-Mormons
biblical scholars who concede that neither the word nor the concept of the
Trinity exist in the Bible, despite accepting the Trinity as formulated in the
councils of Nicea and Constantinople. (See non-Mormon, well-accepted sources
such as The Oxford Companion to the Bible and The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary
to support these claims.)
Mr. Mohler read the Sermon on the Mount and Christ's life. The venom you
produce does not align yourself with anything Christ taught.In your
own words, you "simply fail every major test of historic Christian
Is it naivetÉ what led LDS to associate with evangelicals? I wonder.The LDS Church seems to have been the rich kid in the block being used
for the political gain of the religious right. The enemy of my enemy
is not necessarily my friend. Evangelicals have always considered the LDS Church
as an obscene offshoot of the Great Awakening in the United States. Mr. Mohler
and his ilk feel they have the POTUS' ear and they no longer needs the LDS
Re: teeoh - Trinity“
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and
of the Holy Spirit(Mt 28:19 NIV).The word "Name"(not names) is used
here, as so often in the Hebrew Scriptures, for the majesty, glory, dignity, of
the Godhead. The doctrine of the Trinity does not teach that
there are three gods. The unity(God=Elohim) the LORD=YHWH is one. Deut. 6:4) of
God disproves that there are many gods, such as in henotheism (Mormons). Each
one is God and with God (John 1:1-2). The Son is equal with the Father (John
5:18, Phil. 2:6).The Second Person of the Trinity is God the Son.
Over 100 Bible verses prove the deity of Jesus Christ (e.g., John 1:1, 20:28).
He is the great “I AM” (John 8:24, 58). He was worshipped as God.
Many O.T verses that speak of YHWH are applied to Jesus in the N.T. Jesus is
God.in Mt 22:32 Jesus quotes Ex 3:6, “I am the God of
Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” In John 8:58,
“(Jesus)”.., before Abraham was, I am.” The Jews clearly
understood Jesus to be calling Himself God because they took up stones to stone
Him for committing blasphemy in equating Himself with God. ”
I defend Impartial7's right in this forum to say anything accurate or
inaccurate that he chooses and also I defend the right of the moderators of
comments to allow the comments of those who misrepresent the truth about church
teachings. I also defend the right of moderators to disallow many comments that
are the truth, as they often do.I once cut and pasted a paragraph
from a conference talk by Gordon B Hinckley into a comment and gave him credit,
and the comment was not allowed because it was said to be offensive. I had to
laugh. Even prophets get censored in these comments. And there was nothing
offensive at all about the quotation. We're all human and make mistakes.
@Impartial7Mormons don't reject grace. (Even so, both grace and
works are found in the Bible.) The Trinity is not found in the Bible. Nor is
there any statement in the Bible on how to celebrate Easter. Otherwise, good
points on following biblical teachings!
@Impartial7 - Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe
that it is ONLY by grace that we are saved. The difference is that we also
believe that "Faith without works is dead, being alone." Christ taught
that throughout His ministry. Why did he spend so much time pointing out the
hypocrisy of the Pharisees and Sadducees? Because they were believers in word
only, and did not follow the commandments. Why was Christ baptized? What is the
meaning of the parable of the unprofitable servant? Christ is the only way back
to the Father, but we cannot just say we believe, expecting that "he will
justify us in committing a little sin." For, "No unclean thing can enter
into his kingdom."And we do not ignore Easter. We celebrate it all
year long and on Easter Sunday. The reason we don't have crosses in our
churches is because we focus on the resurrected Christ. Nothing is more
important to us than His glorious Atonement and Resurrection.
Imp. 7 -- I think you lack understanding of the LDS doctrine and have
summarized it in a way that fits your personal belief. That's OK.
It's fairly common for others to tell us what we believe when they really
don't know, they just suspect from what they've heard from others.
I'll not take the time to list the specifics because that wouldn't
really accomplish anything positive but just say I appreciate your opinion, even
if it is inaccurate.
I once walked into a classroom at my sister's church and overheard the
teacher saying, "Yeah, Mormons are evil". I said, "Excuse me,
I'm a Mormon and I don't consider myself evil. Why do you say
that?" He rattled off a few doctrinal differences but before I could get a
word in edgewise, he admitted that every Mormon he'd known personally was a
good neighbor, solid citizen, honest, etc. So I asked, "So by what criteria
do you judge a person to be good or evil?" At that point, he was
stumped.I had a similar experience with my brother who wondered how
I could "turn my back on everything our parents stood for" (by becoming
a Mormon)? Let's see, I learned from our parents to be kind, generous,
neighborly, tolerant of those who were different, to treat each other with
respect, etc. Becoming a Mormon hasn't changed that. In fact, it has
reinforced those qualities.I regard arguments over theological
differences much the same as I regard partisanship, which often exaggerates
differences at the expense of civility. I like to remind people that Jesus
Christ often held up Samaritans (the politically incorrect of His day) as
examples to be emulated.
I don't really care what Mohler thinks. I know that my faith is in Jesus
Christ and that he has either been deceived by Satan or is just ignorant.
RE: NoNamesAccepted. “That seer
his name shall be called Joseph and
it shall be after the name of his father”. ( Gen 50:33 JST. JS adds
prophecy about himself to his Inspired Version. But NOT found in Greek LXX
(Apostles Bible) or dead sea scrolls.RE: sashabill Joseph Fielding
Smith.“They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of
the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The Book of Mormon teaches No Such
Thing! Neither does the Bible!” ?“who shall be
overshadowed and conceive by the power of the ‘Holy Ghost(pneuma)’,
and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. Alma 7:10,
“The Angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power
of the Most High will *overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called
the Son of God(Luke 1:35 NIV,NET
) Christians, believe the miracle of the
virgin birth.@. The Catholic Church does not recognize Mormon
baptism as valid because, although Mormons and Catholics use the same words,
those words have completely unrelated meanings for each religion. The
Mormon’s very concept of God is infinitely different from that of
‘Christians’. They are polytheistic and pagan rather than
@George C Thomas; " I can with some authority say that the LDS faith
does not disbelieve anything the Bible teaches. " Ummm. Mormons
reject grace as a pathway to heaven, for works instead. Mormons reject the
Trinity. Both, mainstays of Christianity. Also, Easter, not Christmas, is the
most honored day in Christianity. But, when Easter falls on Conference weekend,
it is all but ignored by mormons. This is in direct conflict with your
I have a strong belief that the Lord uses many different people in many
different ways to accomplish His purposes. I don’t think He is too
concerned about labels. I also believe He is not happy when we humans try to
decide who is Christian and who isn’t, who is good and who isn’t.
I'm content following the prophets above the evangelicals. And I'm
also very content with the vast outreach of the LDS Church in so many ways that
bless and benefit families and individuals. Social Services, Welfare Services,
temples, family history, Sabbath Day observance, the Word of Wisdom, The Family,
a Proclamation to the World, Self Reliance, Humanitarian Fund, Perpetual
Education Fund, LDS.org, BYUTV, meetinghouses, tithes and offerings, and
Scripture Study with aids, are just a few of the efforts that I can tap into for
blessings and opportunities. There are many more.
Mohler showed his true stripes in his addresses to BYU, as he consistently
referenced "The Church of the Latter-Day Saints", an obvious and
intentional obfuscation of the true nature and belief of BYU's sponsor.If you have to deceive others in order to win your argument, you know in
your heart that your argument has lost.
When opponents of Christianity pass out what they consider "the blame"
for many of the wrongs and conflicts, across the world, of the last two thousand
years, it would be good for them to remember Mr. Mohler and his "traditional
Christian" behavior in almost every generation, especially with regard to
"traditional" treatment of Latter-day Saints!
The LDS gravitation toward the Republican Party has been of fairly recent
vintage - starting in the 1960s and continuing since that time. This has been
due in large part to the national Democratic Party's hostility (real or
perceived) toward people of faith, and their advocacy of abortion and what
amounts to moral relativism.This, however, tends to obscure the
genuinely liberal aspects of LDS teaching and theology -- matters which do
separate the LDS from many evangelicals. These include: (1) a non-trinitarian
view of the Godhead; (2) rejection of the Doctrine of Original Sin, (3)
affirmation of the necessity of both faith and works (and the importance of
personal character), (4) the inherent worth and divine potential of mankind,
(5) the importance of both study (learning) and faith, and (6) the concept of
modern revelation and inspiration, including in the non-Christian religions of
'Historic Christian orthodoxy' has been dead since the early
apostles--and they can set their own self-serving definitions. I'll use
the Bible, the example of Jesus's life and ministry, and His own Spirit for
my Christian standards.
As a Mormon, I'm proud of the fact that we don't adhere to
"historic Christianity," given that Christ's doctrines were altered
by committees (think: Nicene) debating scripture, rather than by revelation, as
well as by lecherous and uninspired tyrants, such as Henry VIII.
It is unfortunate that Mohler simply does not understand the nomenclature &
semantics of our faith. As a former protestant, Lay minister, and seminary
student, I can with some authority say that the LDS faith does not disbelieve
anything the Bible teaches. what most protestants think we believe is not
actually what we believe. Of course we do ourselves little favor as a faith In
our understanding of traditional protestant beliefs. I spend a significant
amount of time in church setting correcting erroneous thinking about protestants
that we in the LDS faith also miss construe. So this divide definitely without a
doubt goes both ways.
For many decades the LDS church distanced itself from "christians". They
were the "one true church" and other denominations were wrong. Then,
when evangelicals started gaining political influence, all of a sudden, mormons
said "we're chritstians, too". Only now, evengelicals, whom never
considered mormons as christians, don't see them as a value for their
agenda and mormons, once again, are by themselves.
mightymite,Mormons do not "worship" Joseph Smith. Anyone
having even a basic familiarity with LDS beliefs would know that.
There is a clear theological devide here. I am not sure what needs to be
addressed. One camp follows and warships Joseph Smith and the other does not. I
am not sure how stark of a contrast NPR can not see there.
The theological divide between Evangelicals (or even much of the rest of
historic Christianity) and the Latter-day Saints is not going to shrink until
Christ Himself returns to the earth and sets us all straight once and for all.
The different Christian denominations exist precisely because of theological
difference of varying degrees. And Mormon doctrines do depart quite
significantly from traditional Christianity in several important regards
including the physical nature of God, His Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit; a
closed vs open cannon; on-going revelation to living prophets and apostles vs a
closed heaven; and the importance of priesthood lineage.These
doctrinal differences have few direct ramifications for day-to-day values or
socio-political goals. And so much of Christianity are well aligned on social
issues.The bigger problem is usually word use. We often use the same
word to mean different things, or different words to mean the same thing. And
people on both sides can take offense. But we don't have to.I
claim the privilege of calling myself a Christian, knowing that I believe
differently than most of Christianity. I'll let Jesus sort out who is or
"....Mohler has long expressed that while Mormons and evangelicals are
allies politically, their beliefs do not align doctrinally."===========I'm not one to speak for the LDS church but I
can't figure out what "news" is actually being reported in this
story.Was there ever a time when people actually thought that there
was NOT a theological divide between Mormons and evangelicals??I
mean, if there was not, why would they congregate in different religious
organizations?In other words, these are different religious
organizations **for a reason**.