@search diligentlyReally. Never seen so much "discord and hate".
You think this is worse then the *literal* lynchings and fire hoses and attack
dogs of the 60's civil rights struggles.I think you may be
putting a bit much emphasis on nasty words over violent action.
@TheJester.Actually, in 2016, Utah showed that a significant portion of
its voting population is not wedded to tribalism in it's sizable support of
Evan McMullin and lack of majority support for Donald Trump. If one assumes
America is largely devolving to D and R tribalism, Utah's religious
conservatives are most definitely an outlier. Now, Utah is unlikely to be the
deciding factor in any given presidential election. But, for whatever it's
worth, the Utah voter has shown that they will not be taken for granted by the
national political parties.
This was NOT a shocking defeat
The word "faith" can be tricky here. Some people might translate it as
"religion" and some might look at it as the simple word, "hope."
Hope in the decency of humanity and in common sense. I believe the people in the
good state of Alabama knew right from wrong and voted according to that.
The near silence in Utah about the constitutional crisis brewing thanks to Trump
and his movement is, well, breath taking. I never imagined we would sink to
this level torpor in the face of life changing danger.
More and more we will need to reflect on the counsel from the First Presidency
to ". . . to seek out and then uphold leaders who will act with integrity
and are wise, good, and honest. Principles compatible with the gospel may be
found in various political parties and candidates."
I have often commented on the dissolution of religious authority when it mixes
with political discourse and political action. The Alabama Moore political race
is a perfect example. It is also an example of racial mixture of religion and
ethnicity. The black evangelicals flocked to Doug Jones and the white
evangelicals flocked to Roy Moore. Were we not born equal? Easy question.
Evangelicals both black and white lose their religiosity when they mix with
politics. Religion is faith based and by faith alone will it survive. There has
never been a successful state religion that relied on the word of God to
survive. They all rely on the sword to maintain their religious tenets. There
will never be a state based religion that will successfully guide their citizens
without the hammer of politics. Utah is unique in the US. We basically have a
State religion, a religious legislature and myriads of state officials that rule
our everyday lives. Utah will not survive by religious ruling. It can only
survive by setting a religious example for all, both Mormons and non mormons.
Mix faith with politics and you only get only politics back.
So it where do Mormons stand on Trump?
It cannot be said that Moore lost at all since all the votes are STILL not
counted. There were irregularities in the voting also such as the last minute
permission given by Alabama's State Senate that it was to be allowed for
any precinct that had computer voting to immediately destroy the record of the
"digital vote" after "counting" it. Really the coverage on
this election has been pathetic.
I'm afraid it will be difficult for fundamentalist Christians to have much
credibility on moral issues in the future. Both Trump and Moore gave them a
sterling opportunity to stand up for family values and morality. It appears,
however, that political expediency ruled the day and the evangelicals flunked
What this article ignores is the large swath of religious voters who stayed home
this election that allowed Doug Jones to win with a much smaller number of votes
than normally needed to win a statewide race in Alabama.After all,
an exit poll is just that, a poll of those exiting the voting booth. About half
the people that voted for Donald Trump two years ago stayed home this week and
chose not to vote for either Doug Jones the pro-choicer or Judge Moore the guy
unfit for office.Please write a story about all those religious
voters who chose not to voter for either candidate this time. Just because they
didn't make a choice at the ballot box doesn't mean they didn't
make a choice.
The Evangelicals and other Christians who have supported Trump and Co, Moore,
and a number of other candidates of dubious moral fibre, should have read their
Bible on these passages.Matthew 7:1-3King James Version (KJV)7
Judge not, that ye be not judged.2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you
again.3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye,
but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?--And in
the case of Evangelical Christians in Alabama.Daniel 5:27 (New
International Version) You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.But the Christians who disagree with the Evangelicals apparently need
this admonishment.Matthew 5:15Neither do men light a candle,
and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all
that are in the house.----For Evangelicals?Matthew 7 (KJV)22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we
not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy
name done many wonderful works?23 And then will I profess unto them,
I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Wow! A lot of heated feelings by respondents here. And bringing up all sorts
of dirt and unrelated issues that show their stance on ... moral issues.I personally loved the article and feel that both the Republican and
Democrat parties have sold their souls basically to the devil... to political
correctness, to party correctness. If one of their fold has a differing opinion
about a matter they are mercilessly attacked by the rest of the pack... er fold
to get back in line.Whatever happened to moral character? Why are
there so few politicians who will think for themselves and stand up to the
insults and attacks of others?And why are there so many bullies and
hecklers?Sadly this goes beyond the politicians to the public at
large. I have never seen so much discord and open expressions of hate in my
lifetime... and I have lived through the 60s and don't think that was as
bad as today.Come on, as expressed in the song back then...
"fear is the way we die" (and I would add "hate is how we die").
So...Come on people nowSmile on your brotherEverybody get
togetherTry to love one anotherRight now
@SWSfraserUm, the greatest commandment isn't "Love One
Another, Even As I Have Loved You."Matthew 22:36-38.
tim_the_tool_man_taylor says:"Innocent until proven
guilty"I am sure you felt the same way about OJ Simpson, right?
Fact is that innocent until proven guilty is applicable in a court of law.
In human voting we all get to judge on available information. And even without
the very believable accounts of MANY young women, Roy Moore was twice removed
from the bench for refusing to follow the US Constitution. That alone should
have disqualified him form any office. water rocket says:"All this has proven is that all it takes to win an election is to make
horrible, unproven accusations of wrong doing, even from 40 years ago. Also,
isn't it possible that a person can repent? This whole rotten, slanderous
accusations against decent people doesn't even have to be true to be
effective."What evidence do you have that this was slander? Are
you saying all these women made it up just for fun? Also, I have
never heard of repentance without admission of guilt. Is that how it works in
your church? Or is it just statute of limitations thing? After so many years you
are just forgiven? Weird. My guess is that Moore is just on
'your team' and so he just couldnt be guilty.
""I am not ashamed of the gospel, but sometimes I am embarrassed by
evangelicals," tweeted Ed Stetzer, executive director of the Billy Graham
Center for Evangelism at Wheaton College, on Tuesday night."
Yes, because many, many evangelicals pick and choose parts of the bible that
fits their needs. "Thou shalt not kill" is a commandment. But, "Kill
all Fags" is a rallying cry from Westboro Baptists. Americans are getting
sick and tired of hypocritical fire and brimstone religious groups that divide
our country. You wonder why "religious affiliation" is in decline in
America? Just look how religious organizations behave vs. what they preach.
@water rocket;To add to what I said earlier, "unproven
accusations of wrong doing..." is what you just did to the women who have
accused Moore. You've already judged them guilty of "slander"
without trial, as you've accused others of doing to Moore.
"'Christianity's integrity is severely tarnished,' Galli
wrote."Too broad a brush, IMO. I thought Doug Jones'
version of Christianity represented itself quite well. However, the white,
evangelical version? I think it once again revealed itself to be what it has
long been: sanctimonious cover for quite a few ugly and oppressive ideas.
As they pass a law concerning sexual harassment, I think they also need to pass
a law that punishes false accusers and have a statute of limitations on these
cases. This is merely character assassination in order to achieve a position.
Whatever happened in Kennedy's case and Clinton's case, "It
doesn't affect his ability to do his job". If someone is found guilty
of accepting pay to testify, throw them out immediately. They both slept with
women while IN office. Some men repent and when some accusation is over 3 years
old, you can only guess why it's brought up now when a man is running for
office. This election was not won on merit but on deceit to destroy an
opponent. We should not tolerate this kind of campaigning.
How was the Moore defeat "shocking?" It was quite predictable. So Dems
need not celebrate too long. Plus don't expect to hold things up on the tax
All this has proven is that all it takes to win an election is to make horrible,
unproven accusations of wrong doing, even from 40 years ago. Also, isn't
it possible that a person can repent? This whole rotten, slanderous accusations
against decent people doesn't even have to be true to be effective. Both
parties do it, and it is wrong on so many levels, but it isn't going to go
away until the media starts doing a better job of holding these slanderers
Innocent until proven guilty.
Religion continues to become less and less credible and relevant when used as a
blunt instrument in politics. Current religion, as in the past, continues to be
used as a tool for the powerful in accomplishing their goals.
4601...I agree the defeat was and is welcome, and should have been at a
much bigger margin. What bothers me is that it was not at all predictable. Many
thought Moore would prevail, at the benefit of his religious supporters and, I
guess, what they stand for. We're lucky the African American vote
came out so strongly.
What is so sad is these votes fall along racial lines so strongly. I hate the
idea that there is a white vote, and a black vote. It's sad this is
still where we are.
This is a particularly telling quote from Mark Galli: "When it comes to
either matters of life and death or personal commitments of the human heart, no
one will believe a word we say, perhaps for a generation. Christianity's
integrity is severely tarnished," Yup, the strident use of
religion to bludgeon those who support the right to Choose (Note: choose not
mandate) a woman's right of choice and LGBT people to marry has forever
tarnished the integrity of the Religious fundamentalists and many evangelicals.
The vast majority of Americans support a woman's right of
choice and for their lesbian/gay brothers and sisters to marry legally. Yet
significant number of Christians chose to use these wedge issues as a means for
political power. And these otherwise good folks went along with the politicians
who spoke their prejudices in these matters. IMO, not particularly good
Christian behaviors.You reap what you sow. These focused political
Christians have sown the seed of hatred and disdain. Now they reap an
unintended harvest of scorn for their very movement.Karma, dudes,
It shouldn't be shocking that a decent man won the election. Put the
believable accusations aside... As a judge, Moore was removed from the bench for
not upholding the law. He does not believe in equal treatment or equal justice
under the law, he believes "christians" deserve more than others. When I
say "christians" I mean "evangelicals, tv preachers, prosperity
preachers, megachurches". They pick and choose passages from the OT to
justify their irrational fears and prejudices while they ignore Christ's
Greatest Commandment -- Love One Another, Even As I Have Loved You. They want to
call themselves "warriors" but Jesus taught we should be peacemakers and
merciful. They pushed for a law that would have allowed them, as
"christians", to deny housing for LGBT people, to fire or deny
employment to LGBT, and to refuse service to LGBT- including medical attention.
Now, what is "the black Christian church" mentioned in this article? A
very poor choice of words!! And, let's not forget "pastor"
Burns' sacrilegious/hate-filled "prayer" at the GOP convention, and
black "pastors" who deceive followers by claiming trump is christian.
"Black Alabama" objected 2 Moore because he is racist.
The best quote I have read in the last ten years:"What this
comes down to is that when you mix politics and religion, you get
politics"Politics will consume religion. You see it now. In
Utah a Democrat can't be elected to statewide office, regardless of their
own personal views on abortion or same-sex marriage. Utah Mormons will
dutifully march to the voting booth a punch the ticket for the "R" on
the ballot, regardless of the fitness for office of the candidate. It has
become tribal. Your tribe is either a "D" or an "R" and
ethics, morals, right and wrong play second fiddle to your loyalty to your
tribe.What's amazing (or maybe isn't so amazing, given
what I just postulated) is how close the vote was in Alabama. Utah is a small
step from Alabama in this regard. Moore would have done just as well here, as
he had the correct initial (-R) after his name for most Utah voters. He was
part of their tribe.
The defeat was not shocking. It was predictable and welcomed. The shocking
aspect was that it was not by a bigger margin.
I wish we could stop using abortion as a political weapon. It is such a cheap
and easy way to get votes. I am personally very pro-life, but I would never vote
for someone based solely on their stance on abortion. The way I see it is the
issue has already been decided by the supreme court and there is almost zero
chance of that ever changing. These politicians use it as a way to get votes and
they know full well that they can't or will never have to actually do
anything about it.
4) you can be for segregation, sodomy laws, religious tests for office, dating
teenagers as a thirty-year old man, violating the Constitution, and more, and
still win a statewide election in Alabama, as long as you aren't accused of
*touching* underage girls.Way to set the bar high Alabama. Keep it
classy.Seriously folks, he *barely* lost. The only "lesson
learned" is that "molests children" is a bridge too far.