As the saying goes:"If the facts are on your side - pound the
facts,if the law is on your side - pound the law,if neither are on
your side - pound the desk,"It's not hard to see what Hatch
had on his side.
Who is paying Federal Taxes in Utah? In reality and in the main, it is the
wealthy. The really poor pay no federal taxes, and in fact receive benefits
that they did nothing to earn! Don't get me wrong, I've no bad
opinion of the poor, but the poor in general pay no FEDERAL taxes. The people
whom are taxed the most percentage wise are the wealthy. Whom are the wealthy?
Not as the Democrats would have us believe, the sharks and demons of Wall
Street. In the main, the wealthy have been righteously innovated and have
worked hard to gain the wealth they hold. They are also the employers whom
employ those not so motivated, but are willing to work and earn. Too often the
poor, though many work, they do not seek to do better.
goodnight-goodluck - Salt Lake City, UTYou don't have to vote
for Sen. Hatch if he chooses to run again. Really. If a majority of Utahns
want a Democrat to replace him they are free to do so.
Poor Orrin, well not so poor, he may have been in debt when he went to
Washington but he's the wealthiest of the Utah delegation today at 2.1
million. Not bad for a man that said he'd only serve two terms when he ran
against Frank Moss.
@ worf"Rich people have rights! Being rich is not a sin! If a
rich person employs a thousand tax paying people,--why should this person pay
anything?"Why shouldn't you pay for roads, bridges, or
infrastructure worf? Why shouldn't you pay for the military?
Why should someone who makes $7.25 help pay for our military but the rich should
GaryO - Virginia Beach, VANobody is forcing you to vote for Sen.
Hatch if he decides to run for another term. If he runs for reelection
he'll win, and if he doesn't another Republican will win. The
majority of Utahns believe in family values, and sadly the Democrats come up
short in that category.
Context is important.What led to Hatch's outburst was an
amendment proposed by Ron Wyden of Oregon that the reduction in the corporate
rate would be rescinded if wages don't rise - a key claim for cutting the
corporate rate is it will lead to large increases in wages.Given
Utah's reputation for low wages, isn't this a pertinent part of the
story that should have been reported? Utahns with low salaries who
support Hatch's angry response really should look at deeper coverage of
this debate, not just the Brown-Hatch exchange covered here by the D-News.
My problem with Orrin is he has no problem lying. (Similar to Trump) . This tax
plan does favor the rich and yelling it doesn’t does not change that. As
for the argument the cut will drive the economy it did not work for Reagan or
either Bush. It took Clinton and Obama to bring the economy back. Republicans
don’t want to look at the data they know better. To quote Richard Pryor,
“are you going to believe me or your lying eyes.
@EdgarSorry, my "Samarian" friend, I'm not buying that
argument. Too irrelevant.Please remember, corporations don't
pay taxes. You and I do.😁
The problem with Hatch going off is the other senator was 100% correct. The tax
break for the top 1% is given off the backs of the poor and middle class. This
is the opposite of what scriptures say we should be doing. Sad day for American
politics when the new gilded age is being brought about by republicans.
It is easy for Hatch in his years of wealth to truly remember how it was to be
lower middle class and trying to survive as a family. That could happen to
anyone that has accumulated great wealth over a long period of time.
He gets angry when he is called on his not knowing or remembering what the
Republican tax plan actually does. He has become a grumpy curmudgeon and it is
time for him to retire with his mostly positive legacy intact.
Rich people have rights! Being rich is not a sin! If a rich person
employs a thousand tax paying people,--why should this person pay anything?Why should anyone be entitled to someone elses earnings? Many poor
people are dishonest.Can I rob my neighbors if they have nicer cars
and houses than I do?Are we a nation of criminals?
Cedarite - Cedar City"states you revile..." Don't put
words in my mouth. I "revile" no state. In fairness, if a state wants
to provide a benefit and/or overtax to its residents, I am all for it, but the
Federal Government shouldn't give them a tax deduction to do so. GaryO - Virginia Beach, VA"Hey majmajor... - Blue States ALREADY pay
most of the Federal tax burden. And GOP states receive most of the free
stuff" Most of that difference in "free stuff" that you
talk about.. is military bases in the South Eastern US.. You know, the stuff
that most of the liberal states don't want? The reason they are there?
Historically, that is where the nation gets the majority of the recruits for the
US Armed Forces.The next reason the Republican States get a little
more federal-dollars is because of freeway construction. Theses states tend to
be bigger, and for national defense/interstate commerce purposes, the federal
government built the freeway system that we enjoy. But Vermont wouldn't
get the same funding for roads as Montana. But Montana has a tiny population vs
Vermont. If one considers the per capita federal spending by state, you will
always have a slanted comparison.
Confused:Tax rate is one thing but ending some deductions the middle
class could use is another. And any tax plan should allow people to deduct
medical expenses dollar not covered by insurance. That would straighten out
the healthcare nonsense more than anything when the fact that medical inflation
that most Americans feel wouldn't bring in any revenues because a lot of
people wouldn't pay taxes at all. I would bet this problem would be
solved. The state and property tax deductions, the mortgage interest rate
deduction and college/education tax credits are big for the middle class. So
lowering the rate might be one thing but eliminating or reducing deductions will
probably be worse for the middle class.And I'm with Senator
Brown/Wyden. If your corporation doesn't give wage increases or increase
employment your tax rate should go back up. If the corporate rate is to go
down, then it's up to corporations to prove that they are investing in
workers and not putting their money in some caribbean country. If they fail in
this department, their rate goes back up. I think simple, fair and common
Looks like Senator Hatch is beginning his re-election campaign already.Thank you Senator Hatch for looking out for the little guy. Tell us why you,
and others in DC, have exempted yourselves from Obamacare. If it is good enough
for the little guy, should it not be good enough for you; Shouldn't the
laws created apply to all?Drizzle, Drazzle, Druzzle, Drome, time for
this one to come home.
I'm a lifetime conservative Republican and retired CPA. I have never
disagreed with Senator Hatch... until now. Funny that Congress wants to suggest
that increasing the standard deduction and reducing the number of tax brackets
is "simplification." Come on, reducing the number of brackets
simplifies nothing, only means there is less consideration of each
taxpayer's income. We lump them into fewer brackets. That is silly. And to suggest the average taxpayer will file their return on a postcard
is nonsense and in insult to taxpayer's intelligence since 91% of all
returns are e-filed.There are several problems with the bills. 1. The richest do NOT need a break. Most in the top bracket are getting it
with the corporation breaks. 2. The standard deduction should not be
increased. Instead the amount allowed for exemptions should increase. That way
middle class taxpayers will be more likely to benefit from deducting their
mortgage interest, real estate taxes and charitable donations (something
especially important to Utahns since they give more than most states.3.
PSC (professional corporations) tax should be graduated, not the present 35%.Many more issues but no space.
Don't you just love the logic of conservatives who claim that when the poor
complain about the government helping the rich get richer it's called
"class warfare" but when the rich and ruling class complain that the
poor are a drain on society and our tax load it's just good, responsible
economics talking.This whole incident reminds me of a scripture I
was reading just this weak:"And it came to pass that I said unto
them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to
the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be
lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard,
for it cutteth them to the very center." 1Nephi 16:2
"The job creators should be helped and taxed at 20 percent, not the current
35 percent"Again, this is what is so frustrating when talking to
conservatives. This statement is so far from reality that you can't see,
one from the other.The truth is everywhere, all kinds of reports. I
use Forbes because it was easy."In 2012, among large
corporations that met that $10 million in assets threshold, 42.3% paid no
federal income taxes after tax credits. Among profitable large companies, 19.5%
paid no federal income taxes. The average effective tax rate among the
profitable large corporations was 16.1%, under federal tax treatment. Compared
to the pretax net income these corporations showed in their annual reports the
rate was 14%."Tax simplification, sure. Tax cuts..to what, We
pay you? Even the individual rate cuts are a smoke screen. They
either expire in a few years or they don't and add another trillion dollars
to the deficit. Tell me how either of these things meet conservative
Hey Gary O and all others:Please call your senators and
Congressional reps. Ask them to continue to allow the state tax deduction.
They can place a cap on the deduction so that it will benefit the middle class
which is what our reps say they want to do.Please ask your rep to
call your senators with this recommendation. They should have more
"pull" with the senators than we do.The already-rich can
afford to pay federal tax on their state taxes. I and most others can't.I will be calling on Monday. I hope you will too.😁
Herbert Gravy said, "Lowering the corporate tax rate will also make America
more competitive in the world economy."Our past history would
call into question the claims you have just made. I think the Reagan
Administration called it 'trickle down' economics, a theory promoted
by financial advisor David Stockman who, in subsequent years, has trashed that
theory along with the tax cuts passed by President George W. Bush. But I
digress.The issue that caused the blow-up between Senator Hatch and
Senator Brown was the Republican claim that this bill would actually raise wages
(a claim you have conveniently left out of your argument) and Senator Ron Wyden
introduced an amendment that required a check on that guarantee of wage hikes or
the tax cuts would be rescinded. Senator Hatch was offended that someone -
Senator Brown - would question the motives of his party by actually requiring
them to stand by their claim. It's just a case of bath faith promotion of
a bill that will help their rich donors and friends and do harm to the rest of
@marxist:Not only were the comments accurate and spot-on, they are
backed up by extensive tax study and real facts - something the left sorely
lacks.Do we dispute that half of the adults in this country pay no
income tax at all? Fact. Do we dispute that the top 15-25% of wage
earner's pay 3/4 of all the taxes? Fact. It's
indisputable. So sorry, you'll have to bring some other arguments other
than "the rich don't pay enough taxes."
Hey majmajor -Re: "If that means that people in New York City,
or other Democratic party run states have to pay more federal taxes, I'm
all for it."Blue States ALREADY pay most of the Federal tax
burden. And GOP states receive most of the free stuffThe Red
states take far MORE money from the federal government than they pay in taxes.
Read these articles:"Which States Rely the Most on
Federal Aid?" - Tax Foundation"2017’s Most & Least
Federally Dependent States"Of the 32 states which receive more
federal money than they contribute, 27 states (84%) are REPUBLICAN. Of the 18
states which contribute more federal tax dollars than they receive, 14 states
(78%) are DEMOCRATIC.The nation’s poorest counties are in
Republican states as well.“For percentage of residents in
poverty, we found that 93 of the 100 poorest counties were in red states . . .
For median income, we found that 95 of the 100 poorest counties were located in
red states.” – PolitifactRed states have a solid track
record of parasitizing our national resources (including our tax dollars) and
they STILL can’t lift their citizens out of poverty. Face it .
. . Republicans can't govern.
This is not a "giant giveaway" to corporations. Corporations don't
pay taxes, individuals do.Once we understand this concept, we will
be able to understand why cutting the corporate tax rate is wise.Funds "warehoused" in foreign countries will be brought back home
which will create more jobs and actually increase tax revenue.We can
not afford to remain ignorant regarding this very basic economic concept.Lowering the corporate tax rate will also make America more competitive
in the world economy.That being said, Congress should continue to
allow the state tax deduction up to $5,000 or some other "reasonable"
Hatch was wrong. This "tax cut" benefits the rich to the detriment of
the rest of us. Any business tax benefit should be specifically tied to wage
increases and hiring, or not able to be taken. The estate tax cut (which would
benefit the Trumps by billions and the wealthy members of the cabinet by
millions) should not be allowed.
I loved the way he handled the arguments with all of his many years of wisdom.
Bravo Senator Hatch, the tired old class envy ploy by the left was exposed. The
Democrat Party has made a far left turn when socialist Bernie Sanders was the
candidate of choice for Utah Dems so the rancor is expected. Tax plan is good
for working people.
John JacksonSo are you saying that the poor shouldn't pay
tithing then? I think that tithing is beneficial to all people who pay because I
believe that we truly do receive blessings.Every citizen in America
who has income should pay taxes. I understand that poorer people don't have
a lot to give, but they use the resources that are paid by taxes. They use the
roads, the security of the military, public schools, etc. So what is truly
unfair is that some people pay no taxes.Sure, a rich man who makes
$100,000,000 only pays, let's say, 15%. That is still $15,000,000 that he
pays. That's why I believe tithing is the most fair way to contribute.
Everyone puts something in, and because of that, there is fairness.
@BYUFootballrocks "They've already taxed the rich into oblivion.
"Your remarks are FULL of falsehoods, but to focus on just this,
the income and wealth shares of the top 10% have NEVER been higher than they are
now. Oblivion? Hardly.
This morning, I sent an e-mail to Senator Hatch after his disgusting display of
a lack demeanor and decorum as the Chairman of the Finance Committee. He lost
his cool the second time in a week when he was sitting next to Mitch McConnell
when Senator Hatch was waving off the reporters asking questions with Senator
Grassley.The Senators are to be our diplomats of high standing and
status. The President has set the standard for our country during his
conversion as a Republican in the campaign for President. He through aspersions
at his competition, Republicans (all 16) and the Democrats. However, he praised
the Russians and bad mouthed our Intelligence professionals in all 16 agencies
and military.The Senator needs to control his emotions. Maybe this
will help him retire and forget about his pride and prejudice for the common
folks.Truth is truth. However, the environment now is, only the
facts change.If security forms were only filled out correctly and
meetings with potential adversaries were remembered. Military and civilians
working for the federal government would be out of a job or in prison for less
than it appears is happening.Judgement for Tax changes?
Go for it, Senator Hatch! Loved it!It's about time someone let
that phony argument have it - there hasn't been any attempt to cut taxes in
the last 50 years that hasn't been met with that old phony canard: "You
just want to help the rich." And to hear Senator Brown spouting
that same old ridiculous stuff and for Hatch to shut him down was sweet indeed.
They've already taxed the rich into oblivion. For example, in
New York state, the rich have left in droves because there's only so much
you can give. The top 15 percent of taxpayers pay over half the
taxes in this country, and they're not already paying their fare share?And half the country doesn't pay any taxes at all...So
you see how weak that whole argument is. You've got my vote
Senator Hatch, keep after em...
As we consider what large amounts of money the rich are putting in, I think of
how a poor person, making, say, $15,000 a year, has not $10 to spare that
isn't needed for housing and food. A rich person, on the other hand, parts
not with money needed for necessities but of the abundance of money that spills
over way beyond that needed for life's necessities. And I think of the
story from Mark 12:41-43. "And Jesus sat over against the treasury,
and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich
cast in much. "And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in
two mites, which make a farthing. "And he called unto him his
disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath
cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: "For
all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all
that she had, even all her living."
Orrin shows some moxie.The first mistake we make is to allow
politicians to think it is THEIR money.
"Confused" and "Facts are Friendly,"Many, many more
data points are needed to explain tax distributions in this country than the
simple list of percentages you provide about income levels and percentage of
total taxes paid. But even if your list were sufficient, the argument here
concerns what changes should or shouldn't be made to that system. Every
credible, non-partisan body evaluating the current tax bills being considered in
the House and Senate tell us that the wealthy get an outsized portion of the
benefits in the bills. In other words, your lists will change over
time to show that the wealthy pay less, the poor and middle class pay more.
Lots of other lists that represent the damage income inequality does to all of
society will also change for the worse.There is no evidence that
this kind of change raises wages, grows the economy, or in any other way
benefits the country at large. All the evidence points to the exact opposite
result, as well as to the falsity and hypocrisy in Sen. Hatch's tantrum.
The states least dependent on federal dollars are: #45 Kansas#46
California#47 Illinois#48 New Jersey#49 Minnesota#50
Delaware(Utah is #40)The House tax bill is a giant
giveaway to corporations and wealthy people (especially Trump)--because,
according to Republican's, it will all "trickle-down." Some
provisions targeted for middle class expire in 2022. The cost of the tax
bill is estimated at $1.4 trillion. As for simplfying? At a
minimum, the tax bill is adding complexity for corporations.
When the best rebuttal you can come up with is "Bull crap," you've
already lost the debate. If Senator Hatch thinks his tax plan is so great, let
him use specifics to show how it benefits most Americans to the same extent that
it benefits the wealthy and the large corporations.So far, most
independent analyses say that's not the case. They also say that regular
Americans like sick people and seniors will lose benefits to pay for the
absolutely huge deficit this tax bill creates.
The tax cut is beautiful and helps business and corporations. Many rich
lawyers don't like this because it doesn't help them, because although
rich, they are not corporations. This doesn't help the rich, per se, just
the corporations creating jobs and giving people pay checks. The job
creators should be helped and taxed at 20 percent, not the current 35 percent.
Europe is growing again because of disciplined fiscal deregulation. USA
economy is growing at 3 percent now, was growing at 2 percent for all of Mr.
Obama term, and yes we came out of recession in June 2009, and Mr. Obama should
get credit for that, 5 months into his first term, we leave recession. We will
grow even more with deregulation.
majmajor- the states you revile as liberal tend to pay more in federal taxes
than they get back, and the taker states which get more than they pay in are
generally staunch red states. Mississippi does not pay for New York,
it's actually the other way around.
I want tax cuts, and yes I have IRS coming after me, for $700, which I guess I
will eventually pay, and yes Mr. Hatch grew up poor to middle class, yet he has
become millionaire on the government dole. I assume Senator Brown (D) of Ohio
probably became millionaire medical doctor before becoming a senator. I prefer
people becoming rich before entering office, and not getting rich while in
office. Hope the senate agrees to tax cuts, and yes happy Ivy League
endowments to be taxed 2 to 3 percent over a decade, long over due. Hatch and
Bishop have got government pay checks now for over 40 years, Utah doesn't
know they (our delegation) love government jobs, and refuse to work for low pay
entry level corporations like McDonalds and Wal-Mart, great American
I dont think i have ever agreed with Hatch......im shocked I how proud I am of
him. Thank you for standing up for all of us.
I have read every comment as of 6:57 pm.I know...good for me.Thanks to everyone for taking the time to comment.Thanks to
the DN for approving so many divergent opinions.
Hutterite Thanks more making my day. Very funny.
Paulartz - I think you’re missing the point. Senator Hatch lost his
composure when Senator Brown suggested the tax bill favored the wealthy over
average citizens. Rather than attempt to disprove Brown’s statement with
examples from the bill, Mr. Hatch instead went into a rather bizarre rant about
the conditions he grew up in. The point he was trying to make, apparently, is
that because of the way he grew up, we should trust him and not bother reading
the bill. This is both depressing and frightening.
For those who think making everyone pay the same percentage of their income for
taxes, here are a few questions.What would count as income for the
very rich? Most of them don't get a regular paycheck for actual work done
like the rest of us. So what about money made on investments which are plowed
back into the companies? Or money hidden outside the country? Or bonuses they
get for having done virtually nothing? It sounds like a mass of confusion.It's much easier for those who make a regular paycheck or have odd
or side jobs. There's nothing to plow or hide so they would have to pay
taxes on everything they make.So how exactly would all this work?
Wow, just wow.The class envy and hatred of people who have earned,
saved or invested money is just stunning. The "rich" already pay the
vast bulk of the taxes collected, while the bottom 50% pay virtualy nothing, In
addition, the bottom 50% get handouts (euphemistically called "income tax
credits") while not paying any income tax, so the "evil rich" are
not just paying more taxes, they are funding the handouts to people who
don't pay taxes. You might think there would be gratitude for that, but
instead some people demand that everyone earning more than them should be taxed
even more, if not having their earnings just confiscated and redistributed to
"the poor."This country has indeed become one of "makers
and takers" and while Hatch's standing up to the lies of the left is
welcome and long overdue, the massive numbers of people who don't feel
sufficiently full from work of others is truly frightening.Everyone
should pay taxes, at the same rate on the first dollar earned through the last
dollar earned. If you want more money- work for it, don't tax and
redistribute what others have earned!
I support Hatch on this!!! We have a lot of congressman that are more interested
In political comments than getting thing done and senator Brown is one of them.
My favorite part of the tax-reform is the elimination of the deduction for
state-tax. This is a write-off for the states with the highest taxes. Why
should the rest of the tax payers in conservatively run states have to fund the
states that are failing, and overtax their residents?If that means
that people in New York City, or other Democratic party run states have to pay
more federal taxes, I'm all for it.
cyruszuo: "The question isn't whether it lowers taxes for the rich. It
does. The question is whether you believe that the rich having more money
benefits the poor."No. The question is whether you believe that
the government has the right and obligation to enforce some kind of
'fairness' (an arbitrary term decided by a bunch of un-elected and
elected bureaucrats) by stealing from the rich and giving it to the poor using
the tax system.Since we have a very progressive tax system already,
those who make the most pay the vast majority of the taxes. You don't even
have to be rich before Uncle Sam takes a huge bite out of your paycheck. You
only have to make $212K before you are handing over a third just for federal
income tax. While that amount may seem like a lot to many folks, it doesn't
even get you into the top 10% of income earners.Any tax cuts are
going to benefit those who actually pay taxes. The leftists will scream all day
long that taking less from those who pay the most is some kind of 'giveaway
to the rich' at the expense of the poor. Such demagoguery will bring out
the headlines in the progressive media, but it is a lie.
" . . . I come from the lower-middle class originally. We didn’t have
anything. "Well yeah.Peons are like that.Hatch's patrons threw a few scraps his way, and now he feels eternally
indebted to them . . . Eternally loyal.AND he knows his place!
“I’m sick and tired of it.”A phrase which often
precedes the words, “I quit.”Hatch has been a strong
voice in the Senate for common sense. I applaud his past service. However, not
being strong enough to stand up to Trump and then this outburst seem to send the
clear message that it’s time to retire.Mitt Romney, he’s
tanned, he’s rested, he’s ready.
@Confused and @Facts are Friendly:Taking total federal, state &
local taxes into account, that impressive 39.04% you state for taxes paid by the
top 1% drops down to 23.8% (Source: ITEP 2017 Who Pays report)—not so
burdensome when you consider the top 1% in America controls 42% (Piketty/Saez)
of the wealth in this country.
Poor Senator Hatch, he can try to spin it any way he chooses, but go back and
read the bill. The majority of the benefit goes to corporations and the richest
one percent among us. Whose taxes are going up Students who will love the
exemption on their student loan interest, Teachers who will no loner be able to
deduct personal funds expended for classroom supplies. The bill also explodes
the debt by about 1.5 trillion dollars. Guess it's true that deficits
don't matter when created by war or tax cuts for the rich.
Seniors need to understand the House version of the tax cut bill is championed
by Paul Ryan whose crowing ambition since college has been to end social
security and medicare. The measure includes large cuts to medicare in
preparation for its elimination, to be replaced by an inadequate voucher setup.
Senator Hatch is a senior himself, but of course he has no health
care coverage worries. I consider his defense of this measure a betrayal.
Power and front row seat access to some very powerful and wealthy special
interest people is surely very addicting and seductive for career politicians to
part ways with. Let us vote them out people.
What Hatch makes distressingly clear is that he doesn’t want to try to
defend his bill on its merits. He could have countered Senator Brown’s
statement by pointing to actual provisions in the bill. But, as Steve Bennen
at MSNBC phrased it: “ The Utah Republican is apparently under the
impression that his upbringing matters, and factual descriptions of his
legislation don’t.” Adding to the craziness the RNC later claimed
Hatch Hass “set the record straight” which is just the opposite of
what happened. Utah’s senior senator is clearly pandering to
corporations and the super rich and is ignoring what it means to be an average
citizen in the USA today.
@dan smith"You know, because "We have to pass the bill before we
can read what's in it." - Nancy Pelosi, then Speaker of the
House."Except that's not what Pelosi said, and it's
not remotely what Pelosi meant in the context of her speech.While
you might bolster your own political opinions by misrepresenting her comments,
the actual text and audience of her speech are readily available in less time
than you took to write your comment.That you chose to falsify her
quote for your own 'gain' speaks volumes more about you than it does
Hatch is not a statesman.
Top 1% pays 39.04% of the TaxesTop 5% pays 59.58% of the TaxesTop
10% pays 70.59% of the TaxesTop 25% pays 86.62% of the TaxesTop 50%
pays 97.17% of the TaxesBottom 50% pays 2.83% of the Taxes________________The rich aren't paying their share.
They're paying MORE than their share.
Beyond the squabbling, what does the GOP tax reform do to the deficit and debt
problems (something Republicans cared about...just last year).Remember, these sky high deficits will be run during the *high point* in the
business cycle. Imagine what will happen during the next serious
recession. And please remember which party enacted these irrational cuts.
The rich benefitting the most on the benefit side is not unreasonable,
especially if it were a tax reform bill where cleaning up the tax code to
simplify it also had the rich paying most of the costs too.This
isn't tax reform though. It's just a blatant tax cut for the rich paid
for with deficit spending and budget cuts to Medicare and Medicaid. So it's
letting the future, poor, and elderly pay for it.
Confused - along with those statistics you forgot to mention what percentage of
the total US income those folks made.For instance, the 5 heirs to
the Walmart fortune, not the one that created the wealth but simply the ones who
are living off the inheritance, made income equivalent to the entire income of
the bottom 41% of the entire country.And the other thing to
remember is no matter what rate they pay on the top end of their vast wealth,
they pay the same amount I do on that bottom part of their income.So
if they pay a bit more in taxes than I do then I’m not really losing
Oh goodness---look at this thread and hear the voices of people who voted
against you and FOR you, Mr. Hatch. "Theythinks you doth protest too
Six months ago Hatch was asking one of his longest running friends from Utah to
go to Washington to help him with tax policy. Up until that point, Hatch
didn't have a tax philosophy of his own.Got this directly from the
person that was asked to help.Hatch needs to retire.
I'd prefer he just "go off" and stay there. Ugh ... it's time
for him to go.
andyjaggy "The top 10% pay 75% of the taxes, but the top 10%
also own 75% of the wealth ... So that sounds pretty fair to me. The fact that
the top 10% should be in a higher tax bracket, yet they are still paying what
amounts to the same percentage of tax as the rest of us tell me that they are
gaming the system."Oh this is funny. I have done so many tax
returns and most of them are Negative tax rates. That means, they got back in
their return all they paid into taxes and then some. So, how do the rich
"still pay what amounts to the same percentage of tax as the rest of us"
when most people are paying a negative tax rate? The fact is they are not. Flat
tax for EVERYONE at a specified rate is the only way to be "fair" That
would include weather you make $1 or $1 Million dollars. That is "fair".
Current system is not "fair" to the rich who pay a higher percentage
than others. Fair implies equality and impartiality. Progressive taxes are
anything but fair.
This is probably why Democrats don't read their own bills, because anything
coming out of Washington is crap. That way, the Democrats can say "Well, I
never read the bill before we passed it, so I'm not responsible." Republican bills are put out, read, and scrutinized. As they should be.
And they're crapDemocrats bills are buried, hid, and passed before
they read it. You know, because "We have to pass the bill before we can read
what's in it." - Nancy Pelosi, then Speaker of the House. And
they're crap tooSorry, both parties are crap. Time to shatter
the parties and have multiple parties. We're heading that direction anyway.
Several factions in each party.
The GOP tax plan is just an early Christmas present to the Sheldon Adelsons, the
Koch brothers, and the Trump family. It's a thank you to the donor class,
the people who got rich by squeezing lower and middle class families. Hatch was born during the Depression. Everyone was poor then except for the
Rockefellers and the Kennedys. Hatch doesn't see the incongruity in that.
Sherrod Brown does.
I'm going to give Hatch the benefit of the doubt and assume he believes
what he is saying is true.But, that means someone is feeding him a
load of baloney. It is a simple thing to look for unbiased reviews of the tax
reform and see things like "the clearest beneficiaries are higher income
people" from non-partisan sources.Hatch has been a politician
long enough that he should be able to better discern the truth and not just
repeat a party line.
Lia..Not sure where you get your facts:Top 1% pays 39.04% of
the TaxesTop 5% pays 59.58% of the TaxesTop 10% pays 70.59% of the
TaxesTop 25% pays 86.62% of the TaxesTop 50% pays 97.17% of the
TaxesBottom 50% pays 2.83% of the TaxesNational Tax Payer
union as source.The top 10 percent of taxpayers paid over 70% of the
total amount collected in federal income taxesSource: CNN Money
The top 10% pay 75% of the taxes, but the top 10% also own 75% of the wealth
(more or less, the numbers are just a little bit different, but for all intents
and purposes that's pretty close). So that sounds pretty fair to me. The
fact that the top 10% should be in a higher tax bracket, yet they are still
paying what amounts to the same percentage of tax as the rest of us tell me that
they are gaming the system.
In tax reform, if corporations get a tax break the only wages increasing are the
The Senators entire career depends on hustling this bill through before people
realize it will raise the deficit and throw millions of of health care
"Factsare friendly"--perhaps, but facts are nowhere to be found in your
post.10% most certainly do NOT pay 90% of the taxes.
Orrin has been in the Senate for over 40 years and knows he needs to maximize
donations to Republicans in upcoming elections. I don't think he'd
get so upset if Sherrod correctly stated that he's doing this for the rich
who fund Republican super PACs.
LOL... reading all the posts from Liberals makes me laugh...Just
curious, have any of you actually READ the bill? or do listen to your
"source" of news?Ute in NV - Sight your source of "Non
partisan" study..According to the Tax Policy Center, they found most
middle-income taxpayers would benefit under the plan. In fact, by 2027, most in
every income quintile would see a tax cut, except for the top quintile —
taxpayers earning $154,900 and above in 2027 — where a little more than
half would see a tax increase.Moderate-income people would
consistently see the largest percentage declines in their tax bills, according
to an analysis released late Saturday by the official, nonpartisan Joint
Committee on Taxation.In 2019, people in the middle of the income
spectrum, earning between $50,000 and $70,000, would see their taxes fall by 7.1
percent. Those earning between $20,000 and $30,000 would see a 10.4 percent
decline, while millionaires would get a 5.3 percent tax cut.Never
knew 5.3% is greater than 7.1 or 10.4%
It's time for the Senator to go home.This is not a good bill.
Shouting won't make it a good bill. Cut spending and cut everybody's
Senator Hatch is an embarrassment to this state. Senator Brown was
absolutely correct that this "tax reform" is designed to help the rich
and shareholder class, at the expense of the middle class and the poor. All of
the wailing and gnashing of teeth Orin can muster will not hide this fact. Let's not forget that what started this tirade was a proposal to
tie the corporate tax reduction to real wage gains. If the object was to
promote the general welfare through lower corporate taxes, there should be some
way to measure the effectiveness and adjust if necessary.But, 70% of
the country believes the desired intent of this effort is to reduce taxes on the
wealthiest among us, and they are right.Check out this analysis:"Many middle-class families would also benefit from a lower income
tax rate, but their savings would be dwarfed by those the wealthy enjoy. The Tax
Policy Center estimates the average middle-class taxpayer would get a break of
$940 from the GOP plan next year, while a taxpayer in the top 1 percent would
save $146,470. For those on the lower rungs of the income ladder, the Republican
plan actually boosts the tax rate from 10 to 12 percent."
The question isn't whether it lowers taxes for the rich. It does.The question is whether you believe that the rich having more money benefits
the poor.If you do, then you should be for this bill!If you
don't, you should be against this bill!If you believe in data, then
having a trigger to change the bill maybe makes sense, though future Congress
bills will make it all moot anyway.
@Facts are friendly "Class warfare has been a liberal talking point for
decades. With the top 10% paying 90% of income taxes, such an argument falls on
deaf ears. Hatch right..."its crap".The top 10% do not pay
anywhere near 90% of ALL taxes.Also, like most conservatives you
isolate the public/political from the private. You think the public sphere is
punitive toward the wealthy, but what about the private sphere? In the private
sphere labor is massively exploited, and that is the source of capital itself.
The wealthy should pay more because they exploit the unwealthy in
the private sector.
Hatch promised that if elected he would chair this powerful committee and bring
reform. It is time to produce results. emb
“sick and tired of the richest people in this country getting richer and
of libs. Most of the people I know who are getting richer and paying more of
the taxes. And they're getting richer because their smarter and working
harder than most.Class warfare has been a liberal talking point for
decades. With the top 10% paying 90% of income taxes, such an argument falls on
deaf ears. Hatch right..."its crap".
"Isn't just horrible rich people get richer and the liberals can't
seem to stop it."____________________If the rich can get richer,
good for them. But revised tax scales amount to no more than a publicly
subsidized country club if they only benefit the upper crust. Trickle down is no
reliable guarantor of equity no matter how good someone like Trump or Hatch try
to make it sound.
Hatch is right, He mentioned, and I'm quoting him now, "....his whole
stinking career."You are correct there, Sir. It does indeed stink.
Get a grip people. Senator Hatch probably received more votes than his opponent.
If you are unhappy....no one prevents you from seeking his seat in the Senate.
Interesting to see Hatch take the criticisms so personally. Granted, he
couldn't argue on the merits of the Tax Bill, which will, as per Republican
economic theory, help the rich get richer and the poor become poorer.I
liked the fiery squabble, even if it had no basis in fact.He's
probably just becoming exhausted having to politically protect the depraved
grabber in chief for so long.
I applaud my Senator for speaking out.
I think all the people of Utah should call his office and let him know that we
do not support this tax bill as it stands. He will have a much harder time
pretending it's for us then.As a member of the middle class,
I've always thought that the current tax code is ridiculous. But this new
tax law goes above and beyond. By the same token, I don't think the
middle class would be hurting nearly as much if we just lived within our means,
which is (believe it or not) actually possible. You really can use a text now
or republic wireless phone for $15 a month instead of $50 or more for your other
plan. You really can drive a crappy car and put in some elbow grease when it
needs it's oil changed, etc. You can have healthy meals that are also
cheap. It's time for America to man up and be responsible for our own
selves, for the government to stop bailing us out except in cases of True need,
and for everyone to pay their fair share, both the wealthy and the middle class.
Get rid of loop holes, never get back more than you gave in, and stop falling
for failed policies. Better yet, decrease gov spending. Then you can cut
The GOP is claiming that dropping the corporate tax rate from 35 to 20 percent
will cause wages to rise.The bill makes this drop permanent.Wyden's amendment calls the GOP's bluff. It provides for the
corporate rate to stay down ONLY if wages rise as a result of the cut.As in, if this change doesn't produce the desired effect, get rid of
it.Every GOP legislator who remembers the results of "trickle
down" knows that this massive rise in wages is not going to happen. The
last thing they want is Wyden's amendment--the chance is 100% that the
"permanent" cut would last, like two years.When a Senator
loses his cool when he's challenged---and changes the subject (or invokes
religion or his sainted parents who struggled financially)--he's afraid
he's not going to get away with something that's not entirely honest.
Senator Hatch, in the interest of civility, could we keep the discussion focused
on exactly who this tax bill will benefit based on the merits of the bill. You
would be a lot more persuasive to those with critical thinking skills if you
could make arguments about how the bill will benefit all Americans based on its
provisions. By making this personal—and you are the one who made it
personal—you do nothing to dissuade me from the opinion that this bill
benefits the wealthy, particularly obscenely wealthy individuals like President
Trump, at the expense of our Country. What is more, by making the discussion
personal in this way you suggest to me that the position that the bill will
benefit ordinary Americans is indefensible and that you need to divert our
attention to a petty little side show.
It's time, Senator. You're ready to become the old man out on
the lawn yelling at everyone.
Sen. Hatch has been referred to as the polite buzzsaw. Nobody will force you to
vote for him if he decides to run again in 2018. Of course it really won't
matter whether you do or don't. The end result will still be the same.
If Senator Hatch is so upset at people pointing out how he is supporting efforts
that primarily benefit the wealthy, maybe he should quit doing that.
The entire Republican argument for this tax bill ASSUMES the bulk of the cuts
will go to the wealthy, as trickle down theory goes - cut taxes for the wealthy
and then they, the wealthy, will invest in plant and equipment, ultimately
benefiting work class people.Except that the increased cash thus
held by the wealthy can go toward lots of things besides new equipment, like
buying back stock to inflate its value, like investing it southeast Asia, or
just hoarding it as in liquidity preference.But appreciate mainly
this is a tax cut for the wealthy to activate trickle down, as per Republican
theory.And I appreciate Senator Hatch has a humble background, but
such did no put him in power.
This tax cut does not benefit the middle class. Republicans sell it as trickle
down but that isn't a middle class tax cut. So the democrat was right to
Its way, way past time someone in Washington stood up to the Liberal lie that
has been pushed by so many for so long. Of course too many people believe it.
You say it long enough unchallenged, it becomes believable to almost anyone.
Tax reform, of any sort, by default will effect the most those who actually file
a return and pay some tax. Washington does not make anyone but politicians and
their lawyers rich. Everyone else actually earns it despite the tax code.
Isn't just horrible rich people get richer and the liberals can't seem
to stop it. It's such an improbable concept that perhaps rich people
possibly earned it legitimately, and paid the excessive taxes to boot.
Hatch has always been at his best when he's calm and collected. He's
knows that having a meltdown like that does him no good. At least he used to
Senator Sherrod Brown was defending an amendment by Senator Ron Wyden to the tax
bill that would call on Republicans to back up their claims that this tax bill
would give money to corporations and wages would rise because of that tax cut.
Senator Wyden's amendment would rescind the tax cuts if wages didn't
rise.But when an amendment was presented to guarantee the rise in
wages would happen, Senator Hatch rejected the amendment and became enraged.
His speech identifying his roots as lower middle class had nothing to do with
the argument at hand and was a smoke screen that essentially revealed the
dishonesty and bad faith of the Republican Congress.
A crotchety old man that should have been gone long ago. Brown was right and
what does Hatch’s being poor over 80 years ago have to do with anything?
There has got to be better republican candidates for senator. Hatch can get
away with this because he believes his base is secure. Yet the tax plan will
hurt his base more than not.
Independent, nonpartisan analyses of the Republican's tax plan show that
the middle class is taking a big hit with increased taxes on this plan, while
those with taxable income above $250,000 are benefitted. That's not class
warfare or semantics. It's reality.
Senator Hatch said he was raised in a lowe middle class family and they
didn't have anything. Wow. He should try coming from a low income family
and see what "didn't have anything" really is.
A hit bird always flutters.
Sometimes you just have to say what needs to be said!