The Roy Moore scandal illustrates risks of close relationship between religion and politics

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  • Tumbleweed Centerville, UT
    Nov. 19, 2017 7:12 p.m.

    Judge Moore's election is not about what he is alleged to have done 40 years ago. It's about which candidate will best represent the conservative Christian majority in Alabama. Judge Moore's record this past decade standing tall for religious liberty shows great courage and determination. He will best represent the traditional values of the people of Alabama - religious rights, right to bear arms, APPOINT SUPREME COURT JUSTICES THAT WILL RESPECT THE LANGUAGE OF THE US CONSTITUTION (this is a huge reason alone to vote for him), states' rights, anti-abortion, traditional marriage. It should be extremely obvious to the people of Alabama that they can't trust his Democratic opponent to stand tall for these values.

  • Snowbirds Draper, UT
    Nov. 19, 2017 6:20 p.m.

    This man prides himself on self righteous that brings on criticism. Too many have come forward against him, too many supporting behind him. I tired of hearing about the garbage of baggage he brings to election. Innocent or not no one cares at this point. Get someone else to run that will have a mind set of serving the people not self-serving an ego.

  • Factsman Draper, UT
    Nov. 19, 2017 6:11 p.m.

    Missing from this story is the issue of abortion; Christians believe that the taking of an unborn life is one of the most egregious of all sins . However, many (but not all) liberals do not share that belief. Even if it is true that Roy Moore was a predator when attempting to date teenage girls almost 40 years ago, in my opinion I believe that most Christians would rather vote for a predator who is Pro-life compared to a candidate who is in favor of taking unborn life, or Pro-choice. Some people would call the differences of voting for one candidate versus the other candidate, simply - the voting for the less of two evils.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 5:20 p.m.

    Allegations! Allegations! The swamp is full of 'allegators'.

    Of course the fact that Mr Moore is likely to support Mr Trump's agenda in the Senate and cause some of same agenda to succeed is nothing to do with it. (Cough cough).

    Sorry this is more than suspicious. More and more all one has to do is to accuse someone out of the blue to spoil his or her chances at anything. Time for a change.

    People in glass houses are throwing more and more stones.

  • toosmartforyou Kaysville, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 3:41 p.m.

    When it comes to politicians and questionable actions, the best thing to remember is: "As ye sow...."

    If you don't want to defend yourself even years later, avoid even the appearance of evil.

    Control your urges or they will control you. How many of both major parties have fallen because they couldn't control themselves, especially those in the US Congress and even (or especially) the White House? How many have paid hush money because they couldn't keep their zipper up or their hands off? Being young or drunk is no excuse, either. Behave yourself in every situation that involves anything that could possibly be construed as sexual in nature. Or not, and wish you had.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 3:39 p.m.

    @ Uncle Artie
    "The case against Mr. Roy Moore is starting to unravel - not based upon emotion, but based upon evidence."

    If by unravel you mean building with more witnesses or victims seemingly coming forward each day...

  • Utah Girl Chronicles Eagle Mountain, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 2:26 p.m.

    @ Uncle Artie

    "The case against Mr. Roy Moore is starting to unravel - not based upon emotion, but based upon evidence."

    All we need is the alt-right media to tell us all those high school girls attacked Roy Moore and there are some who will believe it. These are sad times.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 1:52 p.m.

    @milquetoast - "The "white evangelical protestant" shift in opinion about "morality" from 2011 to 2016 is absolutely astounding. A 42% swing in five years for political expediency is hypocrisy of the gold medal variety."

    Yet these same folks are the first to deflect for Moore / blame Bill Clinton for starting all of this.

    This is how the stereotype of religious people believing Jesus is the head of the Republican Party got legs.

    Twisting politics and religion is clearly a toxic endeavor.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 1:24 p.m.

    First of all let me say I have no idea if Roy Moore is guilty or if he is innocent and is being framed and neither does anybody else -- not in congress or the media. Nobody. It wouldn't surprise me at all that yet another polititian did something akin to sexual assault as we now see with this goof ball Al Frankin and then tries to deny it or minimize it. A woman -- out of fear --- may have held up saying anything for all these years. On the other hand I can equally see the Democrats or the Washington Post paying something to lie about sexual assault to stop someone from being elected at the final hour. We saw with the Duke Lacaross case the media hung these boys and even professors at Duke did too before any proof was offered. All just alligations. As it turned out the Duke boys were innocent and it was the scum bag girl that lied. The media once again was wrong. Tomorrow some woman out of the blue could accuse you of anything with no proof other than her testamony and you are hosed. You lose your job and marriage and reputation over an unproven alligation. This is very dark and scary times. Wait -- just wait until proof is provided before casting guilt people!

  • Oatmeal Woods Cross, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 1:22 p.m.

    If you really trusted and believed in God and scripture and sought to make religion the center of your thought, you would certainly make either a pathetic conservative or a dysfunctional liberal. And that is the problem, if one blends religion and politics, one will repeatedly be forced to choose between a religious principle and political expediency. It is one thing to understand that conflicts occur in each person's mind within the voting booth. It would be quite another to watch churches and entire religious communities violate their core principles and act as political machines.

    Moderate separation of church and state, based upon First Amendment principles, does not harm religious belief or churches. It protects genuine religious life. It protects faith communities from failing to point to the ideals which are the reason for their existence.

  • utahcoyote Saint George, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 12:55 p.m.

    @Pssst - LOGAN, UT

    "There is a reason for statutes of limitation. If it wasn't important or reported forty years ago why is it important now? The courts have been very sympathetic to the claims of offended women for at least that long, and ever since"

    its hard for me to believe that even you believe what you have written. do you honestly believe that people would have taken the word of a teenage girl versus an assistant district attorney 40 years most place in the united states, much less the deep south?

    with authority figures, the person making accusations always seems to be suspected of lying. that is reason many more rape claims aren't made or prosecuted.

    in terms moore, have no clue what he has or hasn't done in his personal life. the sheer fact that he pretty much admitted to dating teenage girls on mainstream media behemoth fox news suggests that he was attracted to very young females as man in his 30s.

  • silo Sandy, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 12:22 p.m.

    "The case against Mr. Roy Moore is starting to unravel"


    "emember those nine women who came forth to testify against Donald Trump during the campaign? They were proven to be liars; set up by the political opposition."


    You take a lot of jabs against mainstream media and make statements that Moore's accusers can't be taken at their word.

    So why should we take you at your word without any evidence to back up your claims?

  • Pssst LOGAN, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 12:14 p.m.

    There is a reason for statutes of limitation. If it wasn't important or reported forty years ago why is it important now? The courts have been very sympathetic to the claims of offended women for at least that long, and ever since.

    Also, as a woman, I wonder what is wrong with a man who asks a young woman of 17 on a date, when she is old enough (in Alabama) to marry without her parents' consent? She just has to say "No, thanks" as to anyone else or, if she wants to be specific, I only date men who were born from this year to that year and so on.

    I really wonder that liberals, who are usually so 'liberal' and even libertine about everything else are so apparently outraged on this subject.

    I invite suggestions on how the marriage laws should be changed to dictate what age a man or woman must be to date another individual of legal marriage age? Would legal majority of both parties (18 or more) satisfy those who are so upset about this. or does there have to be a set maximum age differential, between the ages of adults wishing to date. As a strict Mormon it's OK for me to group date at 16 and single date at 17; I heard no dictate on differences in age.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Nov. 17, 2017 11:46 a.m.

    "In these emotionally charged issues it has become clear to me that a person cannot get the truth from any main stream media outlet."
    That's certainly the narrative Donald Trump bitterly promotes.

  • worf McAllen, TX
    Nov. 17, 2017 11:17 a.m.

    If Roy Moore was a Democrat he wouldn't have the publicity.

  • UncleArtie Brigham City, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 11:11 a.m.

    As I read through these comments it is clear to me that few if anyone gets their news from alternative sources. The case against Mr. Roy Moore is starting to unravel - not based upon emotion, but based upon evidence.

    Remember those nine women who came forth to testify against Donald Trump during the campaign? They were proven to be liars; set up by the political opposition.

    In these emotionally charged issues it has become clear to me that a person cannot get the truth from any main stream media outlet.

  • Misty Mountain Kent, WA
    Nov. 17, 2017 11:09 a.m.

    This article should be titled,

    "The Utter Hypocrisy of Politicians Who Claim to be Christian".

    And if you think that Utah's esteemed senators are exceptions, check out Orrin Hatch's behavior yesterday when Sherrod Brown pointed out the GOP's lies about cuts to the corporate tax rate. This morning's Washington Post has an excellent article about it.

    The Ninth Commandment must have a subsection which says that dishonesty is OK if it furthers your political party's platform.

  • JBs Logan, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 10:39 a.m.

    The moment a candidate starts using a religion to get elected, I get suspicious. It tells me all I need to know about him or her, that he or she will use just about any means to get elected. That disqualifies a person as surely as any crime would. Too slick and oily for my taste.

  • Yorkshire Logan, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 10:16 a.m.

    Truth or claiming sexual impropriety many decades later??

    I know a good man who was forced out of his employment for allegedly doing something wrong the week before by someone who knew he would be fired if this change was brought against him.

    False accusations, truthful accusations.
    What a mess.

    And often the falsely accused suffer wrongly because no one dares question these kind of claims-- and the women who are seeking to damage their boss or their manager etc know these accusations will bring about the damage they are seeking to inflict.

  • Out of the Blue Layton, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 10:10 a.m.

    If I was a voter in Alabama, Moore said enough on Sean Hannity to convince me not to vote for him. His stated rule to ask a teenage girl's mother before dating her is enough, regardless of the legal age of concent.

  • Nuschler121 Villa Rica, GA
    Nov. 17, 2017 10:09 a.m.

    I am a medical doctor who is a woman,
    I am 68 years old and have been raped and nearly beaten to death by two other military officers back 30+ years ago. I had a fractured jaw, skull, broken ribs and ruptured spleen. Yet it was still my word against their’s. They were never prosecuted and returned to Annapolis to teach.
    After ten years enough women came forward to repeat the SAME accusations and they were finally court-martialed and given bad conduct discharges...but no prison time.

    As a doctor I see women and men sexually assaulted, raped, harassed and there is no one to report to as so many people REFUSE to believe the victim! Why is that? If a well dressed man reports he was mugged and had his $5,000 Rolex and $1500 Louis Vuitton wallet stolen, NO ONE says “Why should we believe him?” or “He shouldn’t have been wearing something expensive?”

    Search within yourselves. If you really think that women and men “make up being raped or sexually assaulted” that says more about you than the victim. Why do you believe the man?

    It is SO hard to come forward with rape and sexual assault allegations as people blame the victim. It’s time to be show more respect to human beings.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 9:59 a.m.

    @1covey "Forgotten is the beginning of permissiveness 50+ years ago. Remember the flower children ? Love-ins ? Miniskirts ? Movies flaunted sexuality - very popular. Fashions flaunted sexuality - still do. "

    Are you implying the abuse of women began 50 years ago? If so, you are dead wrong. The willful sexual abuse of women has been with us from the beginning. That's one of the reasons evangelicals like Falwell have no real problem with it.

  • portlander Arlington, WA
    Nov. 17, 2017 9:54 a.m.

    Personally, I believe that politics is much easier to "navigate" when I immerse myself in the scriptures, especially the BOM and the D&C. The BOM tells me what to expect in these latter days, while the D&C tells me how to act. My personal motto is D&C 59:1 where we are told that we are blessed if we have an eye "single" to glory of the Lord. When I am doing that, I feel the Spirit guiding me, telling me what is correct and what is false. And I move forward from there. The fact that our country's founding documents are much like the scriptures, divinely inspired and as of yet, incomplete, tells me that what we have now, is what the Lord wants us to have in our day, and that we should be following them and looking for His interpretation of them, not deciding on our own, "trusting in the arm of flesh".

  • Utah Girl Chronicles Eagle Mountain, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 9:45 a.m.

    I believe a person of faith could believe Roy Moore committed those acts with those young girls. But when one's faith throws up a firewall that completely excludes that possibility, that's a professional license to be naÏve.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 9:41 a.m.

    Religion, well embodied in this case by a Falwell, is about sex and power in the here and now. Moore's supporters have no problem stretching their ethics to support him. They did the same thing supporting trump. Religion and it's adherents show much of their true colours in these cases where they enable behaviour in some that they abhor in others. By evidence of his followers, god loathes Franken. He's OK with the thrift store cowboy and trump.
    I see what religion really values in this.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Nov. 17, 2017 9:22 a.m.

    Religion is politics.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Nov. 17, 2017 9:16 a.m.

    Politics exploits religion no less than it exploits anything that may help a candidate get elected. The candidate may be sincere but religion does strike a chord. I don’t know how since Roy Moore is but voters should question any overtures making a pitch for support. What I do know for sure about Moore is that he has spent a number of years waving the Bible around.

  • MrLogic Brigham City, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 9:05 a.m.

    Ronald Boss is correct in that too many of us are trusting the media to act as judge and jury. In this case, however, the number of accusers indicates that we ought to take them seriously.

    Expecting them to have come forward earlier ignores the fact that most of the women who did come forward earlier (regarding other famous men) were ignored or criticized. This is the time when they are being listened to for the first time.

    Expecting "proof" is problematic in these cases, too, for obvious reasons. We may have to accept the sheer number of accusers as evidence in this case.

    Personally, I think the larger problem comes from those who are willing to critique Hollywood and the Democrats, but won't consider these issues in their own party. They jumped on Weinstein and Franken, but won't hear a word about Moore. Many Democrats are equally guilty: They attack Moore, but won't critique Franken. If our moral judgment becomes secondary to our political party, if we attack others for that which we ourselves practice, we become hypocrites - which certainly flies in the face of what we Christians purport to believe.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 8:40 a.m.

    The "scandal" is that suddenly a candidate is accused a couple of weeks before an election and so many are willing to believe unproven allegations. That is a scandal politically, societally and 'religiously'.

    My 'religion', my conscience and my political and societal beliefs tell me that is wrong and unjust to believe an allegation without proof, and naive to believe accusations that predictably emerge, too late to disprove them to every gossip's, and no partisan's, satisfaction, just before an election. They should be treated with the contempt they well deserve.

    It is a sound principle in jurisprudence as well as in basic fairness not to act on such remarks or to conclude guilt rather than assume innocence. Are you listening GOP and DNC? I believe the electorate is listening, and taking note, and will not reward these tactics.

    A 'long train of abuses' is what I look for not just 'witnesses' that appear and disappear according to political expedience.

  • milquetoasty Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 8:37 a.m.

    Speaker of the House, Newt Gingrich, lead the efforts to impeach Bill Clinton in the '90s. He later admitted to having an affair with a Congressional aide the entire time.

    He resigned from Congress, and was replaced by Bob Livingston. On the day of the impeachment vote, Livingston announced that he too was resigning for.... you guessed it! An extramarital affair (apparently four of them).

    Livingston was replaced by Dennis Hastert, who remained in that role during the trial on the articles of impeachment. Years later, it was revealed that Hastert had paid nearly $2 million to keep people whom he had molested as children quiet. He was sentenced to 15 months in federal prison and labeled a "serial child molester" by the federal judge.

    I once thought that those men would represent the pinnacle of religious conservative hypocrisy, but I was wrong. The election of Donald Trump (by a majority of those same people) and the unwavering support of Roy Moore is even more shocking.

    The "white evangelical protestant" shift in opinion about "morality" from 2011 to 2016 is absolutely astounding. A 42% swing in five years for political expediency is hypocrisy of the gold medal variety.

  • 1covey Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 8:33 a.m.

    Forgotten is the beginning of permissiveness 50+ years ago. Remember the flower children ? Love-ins ? Miniskirts ? Movies flaunted sexuality - very popular. Fashions flaunted sexuality - still do. Remember what Ben Franklin said about women and fashion ? Sex sells. Look at advertisements. Religious leaders have spoken out about these evils for years as a voice in the wilderness; and now the chickens are coming home to roost. America needs to take a good hard look at itself. Both men and women.

  • conservative scientist Lindon, UT
    Nov. 17, 2017 8:33 a.m.

    He' not proven guilty yet, but the abundance of accusers sure has created a lot of suspicion. Usually where there is smoke there is fire and most cases like this in the past have vindicated the accusers.

    Republicans, conservatives, and Evangelicals have, through supporting people like Trump, unfortunately lost high ground.

    The survey quoted in the story - where most religious conservatives formerly felt that personal morality was important to discharging public duty, and now many more people in that same group feel that it is no longer important - is telling. This truly is a blind spot for many conservatives and it is truly sad for those of us who still feel that personal morality is important for holding public office.

    For Mormons, the injunction in D&C 98:10 should still ring true "honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold". I personally feel this instruction from the Lord is even more important than if someone has an "R" in front of their name on the ballot.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Nov. 17, 2017 6:42 a.m.

    Here is your dilemma ardent, fundamentlists.

    Elect a fundamentally flawed person whose politics you like or a righteous person who has political views you disdain.

    Government is an interaction of human beings doing the best they can for us, the people. I prefer the individual with the better personal life over the moral failure. I think people of good character with good intentions will do better for us than stinkers.

    But then again, it is easy to disagree. However, what message does that send to our children and grandchildren that we vote for a support the likes of the current president?

  • Ronald Boss Beaverton, OR
    Nov. 17, 2017 6:13 a.m.

    Why do you and your headline editor use the word "scandal" in the Roy Moore story as though the allegations are a proven fact? Also, linking him to others accused of sexual misconduct makes him appear guilty. We use to believe that a person was innocent until proven guilty. Now the media to often makes that decision for us.