Utah evangelical leaders discuss Texas church shooting, ways to keep congregations safe

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  • TP TWIN FALLS, ID
    Nov. 14, 2017 1:27 p.m.

    Mass killers will continue to choose soft targets as long as they believe they are 'gun free zones'.

    Churches (and orgs.) can subtly, reasonably, employ both lethal and non lethal strategies to thwart a threat without going overboard. Many congregations have ex-police, or military personnel that can come up with a reasonable plan to handle a hostile threat. (Yes, I understand no plan will be perfect.)

    "Come, let us reason together" to come up with a reasonable plan (which will differ from congregation to congregation)... When we all do what we can in partnership with God's sovereign will, nothing will happen that is outside of his will.

    And prayer, community outreach, and fellowship are an essential part of doing "all we can".

  • kolob1 Sandy, UT
    Nov. 11, 2017 9:33 a.m.

    When the religions of America stop politicalizing from the pulpits then they will withdraw the targets from their faiths. When the religions of America stop using politicians such as Donald Trump and Roy Moore (Alabama) from proselytizing their political agendas then you will see the targets disappear . Religion is built on faith. There is nothing whatsoever faith enducing about American politics in todays world. America is the largest seller of weapons in the world. We are the greatest purveyors of human misery and death equipment the world has ever known. Donald Trump " We got a lot of killers.""Do you think our country is so innocent..." "I think our country has done a lot of killing also". And Trump is in Asia as I write bragging about his military sales to Saudi Arabia , Japan and South Korea. When the Scriptures take a hind seat to the National Rifle Association dogma then you can expect to be a part of the "mainstream killing(s)". Sad to say.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Nov. 10, 2017 1:39 p.m.

    @EDM: "mass killings prove that we do not have reasonable restrictions."

    In a nation of 320 million persons, an average of 3 to 4 mass shootings a year over the past decade, with 100 to 200 victims a year is proof we don't have reasonable restrictions on some of the most popular guns in existence?

    How do you feel about alcohol restrictions with 90,000 alcohol related deaths and 1.4 million DUI arrests annually and 10,000 DUI deaths? Are you in favor of lowing the DUI limit to 0.05% or even lower? Or raising the drinking age?

    What about 480,000 tobacco-related deaths including 40,000 2nd hand smoke deaths? Do you favor more restrictions on tobacco?

    "Nope, not an inch - because of the irrational fear that all guns will be taken away."

    You have freely admitted you think only black powder muskets should be permitted. Steve Gunn at Utah's anti-gun org has said he'd ban all guns that hold more than 2 or 3 rounds. That is virtually every modern gun on the market useful for self defense. Feinstein said she'd confiscate every semi-auto rifle in America if she could get the votes to do so.

    Am I irrational to take y'all at your word?

    The 2nd Amd is about self-defense, not hunting.

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    Nov. 10, 2017 12:50 p.m.

    @ NoNamesAccepted

    “We have reasonable restrictions. What some want is to ban entire groups of guns based on irrational fears.”

    No, the mass killings prove that we do not have reasonable restrictions.

    If irrational fears exist, they are squarely with the gun worshippers who won’t budge an inch to rid ourselves of the very most dangerous accessories on the market. Nope, not an inch - because of the irrational fear that all guns will be taken away.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Nov. 10, 2017 10:16 a.m.

    @JLindow: "As a country, we've found that mass shootings and 33,000 deaths per year are more acceptable than reasonable restrictions."

    We have reasonable restrictions. What some want is to ban entire groups of guns based on irrational fears.

    20,000 of those deaths are suicide. Gun laws have little to no effect on suicide rates.

    Of the 13,000 homicides, the vast majority are gang violence using handguns.

    Usually, about 100 murders are committed using small-bore, medium-power sem-automatic rifles.

    "but the people who worship guns are just too politically powerful."

    When you address the 90,000 alcohol related deaths, the 480,000 tobacco related deaths (including 40,000 from 2nd hand smoke), or 1,000,000 elective abortions each year in this nation, we can talk about who "worships" what.

    When gun haters decide they no longer care about the 4th and 5th amendments and volunteer to give government a back-door key to their cell phones, email accounts, etc, we can talk about additional limits on the 2nd amd.

    Until then, know that gun owners remember the Korean shopkeepers during the 1992 LA Riots. And we can repeat the 1994 congressional elections any time congress forgets.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Nov. 10, 2017 10:08 a.m.

    @EDM:

    So now you want religious leaders to get involved in political matters? As long as they jump in on the side of the issue you favor, no doubt.

    How did you feel about faith leaders getting involved in Prop 8? How about when churches speak out in favor of legal restrictions on elective abortions? Are you supportive of their political involvement then?

    I support the right of all citizens, including those devoted to the ministry to speak out on any topic of concern to them. I support the right of churches to take public positions on political issues, even political candidates. I support this right even when I disagree with the positions taken.

    Too many others, however, only support religions involvement in the public square when the churches are supporting left wing causes or opposing conservative views. That isn't support for freedom of speech. It is just rank partisanship.

    Those who read articles before commenting would know that those gathered for this discussion have decided not to inject themselves into the attacks on individual RKBA. They are focusing on changing hearts, not insulting the constitution.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 10, 2017 9:09 a.m.

    To Husker2 - Millbrook, AL:

    Thank you for taking the time to write your very intelligent and sensible comment. We need more citizens like you to speak up - especially about all the violent movies, games and other materials the purveyors of these evils constantly expose us to!

  • Husker2 Millbrook, AL
    Nov. 10, 2017 8:46 a.m.

    @EDM "There is only one correct answer here: Cull the extreme weapons, ammo, and their accessories. Draw the line at hunting weapons and their accessories."

    I am 100% in favor of eliminating extreme weapons from public access and greatly improving background checks. There is no reason for the average citizen to have a weapon or ammo designed for killing large groups of humans.

    However, that is not the only solution. We have serious moral problems in this country. Violence and sex are glorified in movies and tv shows. Video games are even worse. Human life isn't valued and can be terminated in the womb before it becomes an inconvenience. Schools are greatly limited on how they can teach right and wrong, and cannot hold students accountable. Until the lack of morality is fixed, the murders will continue.

  • JLindow St George, UT
    Nov. 10, 2017 8:17 a.m.

    As a country, we've found that mass shootings and 33,000 deaths per year are more acceptable than reasonable restrictions.

    It's a shame that churches feel the need for armed guards, but the people who worship guns are just too politically powerful.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 10, 2017 8:15 a.m.

    I second my support for this profound and true statement: "Thoughts and prayers are expressions of compassion, of care, "Imagine a world where compassion and care are criticized and mocked. Is it any wonder we have violence"

    I hope all of us in the LDS community join our hearts and prayers with these good Evangelical church leaders in unity of faith and prayer for people of hate to change their hearts to love and peace!

    May I add - imagine a world where we can turn on our TVs and go to our theaters and see entertainment that is free from gun violence, profanity, and pornography. When Hollywood helps clean up the images we constantly see, it can only help reduce these negative influences in American society.

  • phht ,
    Nov. 10, 2017 6:25 a.m.

    "Imagine a world where compassion and care are criticized and mocked. Is it any wonder we have violence?"

    God bless these people who are getting together to support each other and who choose to define their world by praying, caring, and looking out for each other. There is good in humanity and I am confident that good will prevail. What a great example they are giving for all of us.

    This is how Christ behaved towards others. And he also lived in a violent time.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Nov. 10, 2017 6:24 a.m.

    I really don't mean to diminish the notion that there is purpose in prayer.

    However given recent events, it would seem that prayer is not the answer to gun violence.

    Yet we have no alternative but to either pray or lucky enough absent from places where some angry dude decides to take out a multitude for inexplicable reasons.

  • Egyptian origins Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 10, 2017 5:52 a.m.

    My previous attempt to comment was denied, but needs to be addressed. "What would Jesus do?" is the newest popular Christian principle, but when tragedy strikes it is ignored for the new popular nationalist principle of security before rights. To hear those Pastors talk about having armed security guards watching over children just sends chills through me. We as a culture, as a nation, are idolizing armed authority. Almost every day in the news there is reports of honoring police or military. West Valley just named a street after a fallen officer who was hit by the pursued vehicle for merely laying tire spikes. Our youth look to the examples of adults and as adults we are teaching our children that to protect means to punish, restrict, censor, and redefine with aggravated force. If you don't believe me watch the ads telling parents what to do to their children concerning alcohol or look to Utah's Laws. The isolated issue of Rio Grande is now a State crisis because of police force. Aggression and armed force is not the solution to the crises that afflict our nation. Utah is the only State not opposing Nationalism. We need to adhere to Constitutional Law.

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    Nov. 9, 2017 11:22 p.m.

    Will our faith leaders have the inspiration and courage to do what is right?

    There is only one correct answer here: Cull the extreme weapons, ammo, and their accessories. Draw the line at hunting weapons and their accessories.

  • Egyptian origins Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 9, 2017 5:12 p.m.

    Should we also rewrite John 2:13-17 to have Jesus wielding a gun?