High academic standards make recruiting walk-ons to BYU a real challenge

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  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 19, 2018 2:20 a.m.

    Shouldn't the main source of your football teams' talent be, you know... the players recruited on scholarship?

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 17, 2018 10:30 p.m.

    Just the FAX:

    "Sorry navel vet, but all you have is theories and speculation, because don’t have any hard data to back up your claims."

    On the contrary my frantic and emotional little bro, I'm the only one here who DID produce hard data to back my my claims. You on the other hand, had produced nothing more than the "nuh-uh" defense. Typical hypocritical coug.

    "The truth is, you don’t have a clue where every BYU and Utah grad moved after graduation"

    Yes I do. And by response, it's YOU who hasn't a clue. So yeah, like I'd said, typical hypocritical coug. Only the most "uneducated" of fans -- like the ones mendenmidmajor was talking about for example -- believes, that U and Y alumni leave the state at anywhere NEAR the same rate.

    BlueCoug:

    "Navelvet is grasping at straws because he just can’t handle the fact that new BYU graduates make substantially more than new Utah graduates..."

    On the contrary little bro, you're crapping your pants over the fact that I'd just exposed that there is no evidence whatsoever that this is true from an apples-to-apples comparison. I'd already presented the evidence that was so irrefutable, you didn't even try. How miserable for you.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 17, 2018 1:36 p.m.

    There is so much red and blue mud being slung by the commentators in this column it is a joke. What I would really like to see is a bunch of these gifted writers all meet on a football field with Red v Blue uniforms on. I think the result would be a bunch of bleeding and bruised up old men whose egos got crushed with the game ending in a tie. Like most of the comments here that game would be boring!

  • BlueCoug Provo, UT
    Feb. 17, 2018 1:28 p.m.

    Navelvet is grasping at straws because he just can’t handle the fact that new BYU graduates make substantially more than new Utah graduates - $12,000 more than the national average.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    Feb. 17, 2018 7:39 a.m.

    Sorry navel vet, but all you have is theories and speculation, because don’t have any hard data to back up your claims.

    The truth is, you don’t have a clue where every BYU and Utah grad moved after graduation, and without that information, it’s IMPOSSIBLE to calculate average cost of living.

    There are literally tens of thousands of places that new BYU grads could move to out of state that have a LOWER cost of living than metro Salt Lake City.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 16, 2018 3:12 p.m.

    Riverton Cougar:

    "I didn't say I'd never read it..."

    Yes you DID! You said, "I don't have the time to read through the analysis..." So how could you have read it, if you didn't read through the analysis?

    Busted.

    Here is what that article stated...

    "Outcome scores are derived from graduation rates, income after graduation, debt repayment and academic reputation."

    And that's it. It said nothing about the geographic region the alumni are working at.

    But another WSJ article ("Salaries Soar for the Class of 2017" by Kelsey Gee) stated that workers in Los Angeles were making less than similar employees in San Francisco or New York! And that's due to "geography"! Not "alma mater"! And per NerdWallet's Cost of Living calculator, folks earning $50K in St. George, UT had the same buying power as folks in L.A. making $74K. Again, "geography"; not "alma mater"!

    And since I was able to back my position up with verifiable facts, and you'd accidentally admitted that you had no facts whatsoever, and thus failed to back up one iota of your claim...

    ...then MY facts are the only valid ones presented here. Edge: Naval Vet. I win. You lose. How miserable for you. Haha!

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, UT
    Feb. 16, 2018 1:32 p.m.

    "So in other words, what you're saying is, you'd never read the article that Uteanymous cited, but you somehow just know that the alumni from both institutions were graded by the same standard? How is that possible?"

    Are you serious? Your posts are getting so far out there that I sometimes wonder if you're actually a BYU fan troll trying to make Ute fans look bad.

    I didn't say I'd never read it, first of all. Secondly, some things are common enough knowledge that one shouldn't be ridiculed for suggesting. I think the analysis was written in English. Is that too presumptuous for you, or do I have to read it to be sure?

    But if you want to go ahead and prove your point, then find out where in the analysis BYU grads and/or U grads are graded by a different standard than the others. I'll admit I'm wrong if you find anything like that in there. Good luck.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 16, 2018 12:57 p.m.

    Riverton Cougar:

    "I don't have the time to read through the analysis (which apparently you do), so I can't comment on the specifics of the analysis.....U grads and Y grads were graded by the same standard, and the U came up short."

    So in other words, what you're saying is, you'd never read the article that Uteanymous cited, but you somehow just know that the alumni from both institutions were graded by the same standard? How is that possible? Why don't you just say, "I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I wish so hard for it to be true, that it MUST be!" At least then I wouldn't be able to argue with you.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, UT
    Feb. 16, 2018 11:21 a.m.

    "But they DIDN'T run those salaries through a 'Cost of Living Index' filter! So that WSJ report makes it look like an Accountant in Los Angeles making $60K is better than one in St. George making $50K, when in fact, it isn't!

    You clearly don't have a degree in Finance, Economics, Statistics, or Math, since you don't know how to interpret an analytical report."

    @Naval

    I'm sorry, but if you're hanging your hat on that then you know it's not looking good.

    I don't have the time to read through the analysis (which apparently you do), so I can't comment on the specifics of the analysis or comb through the detail. However, your 60k in LA vs 50k in St. George is hypothetical anyway, and in no way proves that BYU grads make only slightly more than U grads rather than significantly more than, unless you can prove that the analytical report is full of those kinds of examples (where BYU grads make more money, but in a city with a significantly higher cost of living than the comparable U grad).

    U grads and Y grads were graded by the same standard, and the U came up short.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 16, 2018 10:33 a.m.

    blue n gold:

    "Utah loses just as many recruits to Stanford."

    What does that have anything to do with "CougarPassion's" frantic, emotional, and wholly unsupportable case that the difference between Stanford recruits and the indy-waters "isn't great"??? Were you embarrassed that yet another cougar fan was exposed, so you panicked and threw out a red herring about Utah's annual Top-50 recruiting classes?

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 16, 2018 9:49 a.m.

    LonestarSpinner:

    "WSJ's value-added measure of salaries was calculated by comparing predicted salaries-based on factors including students' SAT scores, family income and an institution's population of first-generation college students-and the actual outcomes for recent graduates."

    But they DIDN'T run those salaries through a "Cost of Living Index" filter! So that WSJ report makes it look like an Accountant in Los Angeles making $60K is better than one in St. George making $50K, when in fact, it isn't!

    You clearly don't have a degree in Finance, Economics, Statistics, or Math, since you don't know how to interpret an analytical report.

  • talkinsports Gilbert, AZ
    Feb. 16, 2018 7:55 a.m.

    Big J

    "This is not the reason but it makes the fans feel better."

    It's not THE reason, but it is one of many reasons - very high academic standards, honor code, LDS culture, non-P5, location, relatively small minority community.

    It doesn't matter whether it makes you feel better, or not, it simply recognizes reality.

  • Big J Bountiful, UT
    Feb. 16, 2018 7:00 a.m.

    This is not the reason but it makes the fans feel better. We can't recruit or complete but its because we are such a great academic school. It would just be better to come to grips with what BYU has always been...

  • blue n gold Redmond, WA
    Feb. 15, 2018 3:58 p.m.

    Naval Vet

    "Stanford might lose head-to-head battles to BYU on 1 or 2 recruits, but that doesn't suggest the "difference" is small."

    Utah loses just as many recruits to Stanford.

    Anytime a Utah or LDS recruit chooses Stanford, he's basically rejecting BYU and Utah.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 3:58 p.m.

    blue n gold:

    "Star Lotulelei is a prime example of such a player who couldn't qualify academically to attend BYU."

    No, he's not really a very good example, because he couldn't qualify at any of the other schools either. He was an academic non-qualifier. However, once he completed his JUCO requirements, he DID qualify to attend the Y, and the Y DID offer him a scholarship spot. He just didn't want to go there. He preferred the U.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 3:51 p.m.

    CougarPassion:

    "No, BYU isn't on the same level as Stanford, but that Stanford is all too often interested in BYU recruits tells us the difference isn't great."

    Yes it is. The difference is ENORMOUS! Stanford might lose head-to-head battles to the indy-WACers on 1 or 2 recruits, but that doesn't suggest the "difference" is small. It suggests the "occurrences" are. And that's really just another way saying how "rare" Stanford is interested in cougar recruits.

  • blue n gold Redmond, WA
    Feb. 15, 2018 3:46 p.m.

    One point that seems to have been missed in the discussion is we're talking about walk-ons, who not only have to qualify academically, but also have to pay their own way.

    Stanford, Duke and other brainiac schools may have higher admission standards, but how many players choose to walk on at those schools with nothing but the hope that they might be able to join the football team?

    How many players who might have walked on at BYU, end up going to Utah or Utah State because they don't meet BYU's higher academic standards?

    Star Lotulelei is a prime example of such a player who couldn't qualify academically to attend BYU. An entire pipeline of players ended up at Utah, instead of at BYU, specifically because of BYU's higher academic standards.

  • DeepBlue Anaheim, CA
    Feb. 15, 2018 3:26 p.m.

    It's interesting that in a national study of value added college education, the Wall Street Journal chose specifically to highlight BYU:

    "One example is Brigham Young University, Provo. It was 113th in the overall ranking, but 40th in outcomes thanks to a high graduation rate and average annual earnings for recent graduates that are $12,000 more than predicted."

  • BlueCoug Provo, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 3:16 p.m.

    Naval Vet

    "First of all, your new alumni don't earn "substantially more" than ours."

    Actually, they do.

    "It's only "marginally" more."

    Nope, it's substantially more.

    "And second, it isn't because they're taught to "solve real world problems" either. It's because your alumni are more inclined to move back home after graduation, whereas Utah alumni are more inclined to remain in Utah."

    More made up claims.

    Lots of BYU graduates from out-of-state, stay in Utah after graduation.

    Lots of commuter school graduates leave the state after graduation.

    You're always full of whiny excuses, but the Wall Street Journal says otherwise:

    Colleges Whose Graduates Do the Best Financially
    #113 BYU
    #312 Utah

    BYU was 113th in the overall ranking, but 40th in outcomes thanks to a high graduation rate and average annual earnings for recent graduates that are $12,000 more than predicted.

    How much higher than predicted average annual earnings for recent graduates were Utah graduates?

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 3:00 p.m.

    Uteology

    "Which programs?"

    Best National Universities
    #61 BYU
    #110 Utah

    Best High School Counselor Rankings
    #75 BYU
    #156 Utah

    Best Business Schools
    #34 BYU
    #57 Utah

    Colleges Whose Graduates Do the Best Financially (Wall Street Journal)
    #113 BYU
    #312 Utah

    WSJ's value-added measure of salaries was calculated by comparing predicted salaries—based on factors including students’ SAT scores, family income and an institution’s population of first-generation college students—and the actual outcomes for recent graduates.

    One example is Brigham Young University, Provo. It was 113th in the overall ranking, but 40th in outcomes thanks to a high graduation rate and average annual earnings for recent graduates that are $12,000 more than predicted.

  • Cougar Passion Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 2:01 p.m.

    As has been alluded to by others, the admission numbers don't tell the whole story when comparing BYU and Stanford. No, BYU isn't on the same level as Stanford, but that Stanford is all too often interested in BYU recruits tells us the difference isn't great. One poster pointed out that Stanford accepts 5% of applicants while BYU is around 50%. That shows both that Stanford factually has a *much* larger recruiting pool than BYU, but also highlights a problem that turns too many LDS into fans of another school: the vast majority of those who are BYU fans don't bother applying to BYU because they know they won't get in (I know this from my own extended family, as well as within my ward; other than my daughter and one family in my ward, none of the BYU fans I know have even applied). And I can corroborate what another poster said about the difficulty: when I told a couple of colleagues about my daughter getting in, they both said the same thing with different details: "It's so hard to get in. A kid in my ward had a 3.9 GPA and 32 ACT/3.97 GPA and 34 ACT, and didn't get in!" So I frankly think it's a waste of time any more for BYU coaches to talk about recruiting walk-ons.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 1:45 p.m.

    Uteanymous:

    "There’s a reason that new BYU graduates earn substantially more than new Utah graduates....BYU graduates are taught how to think to solve real world problems, rather than being taught what is politically correct to think to solve made up problems."

    First of all, your new alumni don't earn "substantially more" than ours. It's only "marginally" more. And second, it isn't because they're taught to "solve real world problems" either. It's because your alumni are more inclined to move back home after graduation, whereas Utah alumni are more inclined to remain in Utah. And Utah traditionally pays lower than states such as CA, NY, MA, WA, etc.

    Nevertheless, there had been no study that calculated alumni wages flattened out via "Cost of Living Index". A new alumnus making $50K in St. George "technically" makes less than another similar alumnus who lives in L.A. making $60K. But which one has the higher standard of living?

    Answer: The St. George alumnus. His $50K = $74K in L.A. -- or $14K more than the L.A. guy making only $60K.

    FACT!

    P.S.: Of course I didn't last long in WACistan. My thinking won't been done FOR me, so I opted to transfer.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 1:36 p.m.

    NevadaCoug:

    "Sounds like somebody is blinded by his hatred of a religion."

    Wrong! I'm LDS! Just because I disdain the school down south, that doesn't make me a religious bigot. Sounds like you have a bit of a persecution complex. That's actually fairly typical of the sort of mindless cyborgs that traditionally enroll at the Y, and choose to remain there.

    And FWIW, I took Biology down there as part of my core coursework, so I know that they teach evolution. But that was neither here nor there since the student body wasn't interested in challenging the professor. All they cared about was whether or not the material he'd addressed would be on the test. That's it. So yeah....cyborgs.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 15, 2018 1:15 p.m.

    london_josh - lincoln, CA

    Second, sure, Stanford is hard too, the combination of an enforced honor code and academic standards make BYU very unique in terms of recruiting. I'm not sure why anybody chooses to argue this fact.

    ------------

    That and lack of African American talent.

    Here's one example, African American recruits in 2018 class:

    * Utah 9 of 20 (45%)
    * Stanford 8 of 15 (53%)
    * BYU 3 of 23 (13%)

  • golfrUte SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 1:02 p.m.

    This article is about "walk on" student athletes not scholarship athletes. Yes, BYU has high admission standards for rank and file students as thousands of LDS kids from around the country/world want to attend. No argument there. However, some BYU fans like to perpetuate the myth that the academic admission criteria apply to scholarship athletes as well and that is categorically false.

    Like most Division 1 schools, BYU admits scholarship athletes who have extremely mediocre high school academic credentials all the time. Let's be honest and acknowledge the high school academic performance of most Division 1 scholarship athletes is very comparable regardless of what university they attend.

    Best wishes to any walk-on who can dedicate the time to academics and their sport without the advantages of a scholarship.

  • Gandalph Sandy, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 12:18 p.m.

    Uteanymous

    “...new BYU graduates earn substantially more than new Utah graduates.”

    True, because BYU graduates are better prepared to tackle real world problems, which is precisely what employers are looking for.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 15, 2018 12:14 p.m.

    @phoenix - Gilbert, AZ

    Academically, in undergraduate studies, which accounts the fields of study for the vast majority of athletes...

    BYU > Utah-SLC

    -------------------

    Which programs? Your programs are as bad as your football team: Utah #34 BYU #112

    STEM programs, for example:

    Biological Sciences: Utah #55 BYU #139
    Computer Science: Utah #40 BYU #90
    Chemistry: Utah #35 BYU #106
    Math: Utah #34 BYU #73
    Physics: Utah #65 BYU #111
    Engineer: Utah #52 BYU #102

    Odd that BYU is not even better in Social Work: Utah #52 BYU #104

    Source: US News (All Program Rankings)

  • Wayne Rout El Paso, TX
    Feb. 15, 2018 12:06 p.m.

    The demographics of college football has changed greatly in the last 30 years. The typical college player today probably can't meet admission standards at BYU. Some do not go to class or even do their own homework. The high ethical standards at BYU combined with the academic standards make it very difficult to land the "athletes" that we might find at an SEC school. This puts a special burden on the coaching staff in terms of recruiting and game planning. How long has it been since the BYU offense was considered creative? Do we really recruit all over the nation or do we focus on 4 or 5 states? Is there enough money available for recruiting or are we loosing prospects because we can't afford to visit them?

  • Uteanymous Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 15, 2018 12:00 p.m.

    Navel vet

    Don’t kid yourself, we all know that you didn’t last long enough at BYU to learn much of anything.

    There’s a reason that new BYU graduates earn substantially more than new Utah graduates.

    BYU graduates are taught how to think to solve real world problems, rather than being taught what is politically correct to think to solve made up problems.

  • NevadaCoug Overton, NV
    Feb. 15, 2018 11:43 a.m.

    " Also, at the Y, students are taught "what" to think"

    Not my experience at all. Students were often at odds with professors, and not in the way you might think. For example, you would probably think that professors at BYU would be disdainful of evolutionary theories. Not the case. I vividly remember a very heated debate in a freshman biology class where the prof was promoting evolution as a scientific fact, which did not sit well with some students. Professors and TAs at BYU were constantly challenging students to rethink their outlook on certain things.

    I also had a Poly-Sci class from a prof who had just been hired at BYU. His previous school? Cal-Berkley. Yes, ideas and beliefs were challenged.

    "why the indy-WACers always constantly cling to myths. "

    Sounds like somebody is blinded by his hatred of a religion.

    And all this talk of people at BYU being "all the same?" Yeah, no. There are students there from all over the world, with extremely different backgrounds. Just because most have a unifying religion does NOT make them the same.

  • Cougarista Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 11:36 a.m.

    High standards area a great problem to have. Let's hope that it never changes.

  • gchris rock springs, wy
    Feb. 15, 2018 11:31 a.m.

    The article is about the difficulty in gaining admission to BYU for those wanting to "walk-on" for athletics. It isn't about how much better a U of U education is or which is the best "research" institution. It is no secret that BYU has higher admission criteria than the U or just about any other western university. There is intense competition for a BYU education. That is the fact. A student must have a higher high school GPA, a higher SAT or ACT score, etc. to get into BYU, in addition to pledging to adhere to a strict honor code. If any university wants to hold their applicants ( even athletes) to a higher standard, that should be a good thing, even if it means not getting that wide receiver who can't even read his high school diploma.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 11:21 a.m.

    @Riverton Cougar

    "with only about 30% of BYU's population coming from Utah compared to approximately 80% of undergrads at the U, ...., so I'm calling your bluff."

    The first "forum" I attended at the Y a speaker said BYU is perhaps the most diversified school in the nation. And he went on the say the Y had students from every state and X number of countries" And I said, "Yes. that is what I'm looking for in a college. I don't doubt he was right (geographically speaking). What he didn't say was that 95% were mormons, 98% white, 30-40% returned missionaries. Most out of state kids came to the Y to be with fellow Mormons and almost every female came to find a Mormon husband!

    Sounds a lot like your argument. 70% of BYU students came from out of Utah while "approximately 80% " of Utah's freshman class came from Utah. So obviously, to you, the Y is more diverse. That was what the Y wanted me and others to believe.

    Can I raise once you called my "bluff"? I win now and won then.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 10:41 a.m.

    Mr. Boris:

    "All I know is I spent four years at the U and I is pretty sure I aint as smart as I was before I went to the U. The average student at the U doesn't even compare to the Y."

    If you'd spent all 4 of your years at the U, then how would you know how the average student compares to the Y?

    Like "Who am I sir?", I attended BOTH schools, so we know better than you how the average U student compares to the Y. And that answer is, U students are far more "academically curious" than our indy-WACey counterpart, who rather than being taught "how to think", are mainly taught "what to think".

    That's why Utah alumni are smarter than the indy-WACers, and why the indy-WACers always constantly cling to myths.

    And for the record, I seriously doubt you ever attended even one day of class at the U. You sound more like someone who'd been rejected by the Y so they attended UVU, Snow, or Weber St. You also sound like someone who'd never actually graduated either. More likely a college drop-out who works in either a call center, or door-to-door MLM sales. No wonder you're not very impressed with yourself.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 10:41 a.m.

    Sanefan:

    "The MWC only has 11 teams. BYU could rejoin there."

    No they don't. And no they couldn't.

    Never in the history of the MWC had there been 11-members. The MWC membership was at 8 from 1999-2004, and again in 2011 , 9 from 2005-10, 10 in 2012, and 12 from 2013 on.

    When the cougars left the MWC, they'd burned their bridges with that league's charter members, so they'll never vote to let you all back in. MWC bylaws require a 75% approval vote, and with schools like SDSU, Wyo, Colo St, and UNM, you'll never get that 75%. And for what it's worth, I seriously doubt schools like UH or UNLV would be favorable to your inclusion either. And why hadn't you played AFA since 2010? They don't like you guys either?

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 10:40 a.m.

    "If they meet the standards we…..and are passed over, we seek them." - Ilaisa Tuiaki

    That's a great strategy…for teams whose ceilings are 4-5 wins/season. No wonder the indy-WACers were the "bottom feeders" of last year's independents. Haha!

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    Feb. 15, 2018 10:39 a.m.

    "It's a completely different language for us. We are only using that term 'preferred walk-on' for those who can get into school on their own, who meet the academic profile, who are above the line of the average incoming freshman student." - Ed Lamb

    This sounds like an "excuse" for being so mediocre. For starters, we're not talking about scholarship players - i.e. the guys who are expected to make impactful contributions to the team. We're only talking about "walk-ons" - i.e. the ones that rarely make it off the Scout team.

    Second, why are these walk-ons being expected to be "ABOVE the line of the average incoming student"??? If the "average" ACT score is 29.5, why must they score a 30? And if the "average" is 29.5, then that means that there are kids scoring BELOW that mark. Like a 25, a 26, or 27 - students who balance out those kids scoring 31s, 32s, or 33s.

    And finally, we all know that the Y signs academic non-qualifiers, so I just don't buy the notion that can't get a PWO in under the cougars' general admission requirements. Especially seeing as how my 2nd point exposed the flaw in Lamb's version as to why the indy-WACers talent is so mediocre.

  • london_josh lincoln, CA
    Feb. 15, 2018 9:56 a.m.

    First of all the answer is 88% and the correct question was if a student is accepted to both BYU and Utah how often do they choose BYU.

    Second, sure, Stanford is hard too, the combination of an enforced honor code and academic standards make BYU very unique in terms of recruiting. I'm not sure why anybody chooses to argue this fact.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 9:39 a.m.

    @utahute69

    "I love it when BYU tries to make a case that academics are causing them to have recruiting problems. BYU doesn't have academic requirements that exceed Stanford, UCLA, USC or UC Berkeley. And, that is just the PAC Conference."

    *sigh*

    Ute fans will be Ute fans and not acknowledge that there's another huge element: the Honor Code.

    Nobody is saying BYU is on par with the Ivy League schools academically, just that with BYU's relatively high acceptance standards in combination with the Honor Code makes it difficult to get recruits. We're also not saying that getting walk-ons is easy at schools like Stanford or Cal, just that it's not easy at BYU either.

    @Who am I sir

    Your anecdote is first of its kind that I've heard. In fact, like Ute Alum, I usually (if not always) hear the opposite. And you see what you are looking for; I doubt 95% of the students were just like you. In fact, with only about 30% of BYU's population coming from Utah compared to approximately 80% of undergrads at the U, you most likely had much more in common with U students (or at least U students are more homogeneous) than BYU students, so I'm calling your bluff.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Feb. 15, 2018 9:27 a.m.

    Stoa

    "BYU is a solid school that’s more competitive than a lot of colleges but why do folks continue to peddle and accept the wishful narrative that BYU is the same as Stanford, Duke, Vandy, etc"

    It's laughable how the haters are constantly forced to make up strawmen.

    Academically, in undergraduate studies, which accounts the fields of study for the vast majority of athletes...

    BYU > Utah-SLC

  • Idaho forever South Jordan, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 9:17 a.m.

    Guess Jim McMahon wouldn't "measure up" today.............or, would he?

  • at long last. . . Kirksville , MO
    Feb. 15, 2018 9:05 a.m.

    Another "Pity poor me" article from the state's major cheerleader for the TDS. Why not just write, 'It is very, very hard for a really excellent school (like the one I support) to recruit good athletes- that's why we had such a lousy record last year' and save the rest of the newsprint and ink?

  • Stoa Dulles, DC
    Feb. 15, 2018 8:56 a.m.

    BYU-P is a solid school that’s more competitive than a lot of colleges but why do folks continue to peddle and accept the wishful narrative that BYU-P is the same as Stanford, Duke, Vandy, etc in “academic prestige” ? If BYU-P ever reaches acceptance rates of

  • Utah Alum Provo, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 8:53 a.m.

    Who am I sir?

    I attended both and graduated from the U, but I never learned anything at the U that I couldn't have learned living in the real world.

    One thing I did learn at the U is that the classes were far less rigorous and less academically challenging than similar classes that I'd taken at the Y.

  • Mr. Boris Layton, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 8:48 a.m.

    All I know is I spent four years at the U and I is pretty sure I aint as smart as I was before I went to the U. The average student at the U doesn't even compare to the Y.

    We are talking about walk ons who would have already had to been admitted before they walked onto the football team. We aren't talking about preferred walk ons or scholarship players.

    The bigger issue is the honor code. Most players want a "secular" education? Whatever that means. Sorry but most BYU students aren't like other college students. They are different and that doesn't make them better than other students morally. It just means different. But to say that the average student at BYU academically isn't better than the other schools in the state is simply not true.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 8:27 a.m.

    @Mr. Boris

    I was accepted to BYU and attended school there.

    It was midway through the first year that I realized 98% of the student body was just like me. How could I learn from them? All believed the same as me. Essentially they were just like me.
    The whole concept of college was for different people getting together to learn from each other - to be exposed to new ideas, to strengthen my personality by expressing my understandings while learning from others. After that first year I transferred to the University of Utah where I was able to get a "complete" education.

    Go Utes.

  • lefty200 Kaysville, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 8:24 a.m.

    The way I see it, is that this article is about walkons.... these are kids who arent recruited to play elsewhere and go to BYU and then decide they want a tryout. This article also stated that the athletic department has a leaway for scholarshiped athletes on admission standards. So..... the coaches recruite the athletes they want, the athlete gets admitted and all is complete. Then the walk on comes along.... coaches are getting greedy and want more and more and more. Then they whine when they don't get their way. Some sob story here.

  • Fashion Police Olympus Cove, Utah
    Feb. 15, 2018 8:15 a.m.

    HoboA1

    "Another reason why BYU should pack it up and go home. National prominence is in the rear view mirror. The school's athletic heydays are over."

    Unfortunately for U, Utah has never had any real national prominence and Utah's athletic heydays pale by comparison to BYU's.

    Just another reason why BYU should never pack it in and go home.

    It would rob U of the opportunity to continue to live in BYU's shadow.

  • Riddles in the Dark Olympus Cove, Utah
    Feb. 15, 2018 8:05 a.m.

    HuskyVa

    "Can we please be honest about how difficult it is to gain entrance to BYU vs. other top schools?"

    If you're going to be honest, then why didn't you include a comparison between BYU and all of the PAC 12 schools, especially, Utah?

    A comparison of academic standards and acceptance rates between BYU and Ivy League schools is completely meaningless in terms of football walkons.

  • truenorth3 Draper, UT
    Feb. 15, 2018 7:43 a.m.

    Dont change the academic standards at BYU. Recruit athletes that are able to meet the standard. They are out there. Contrary to the coaching staff, specifically Tuiaki in this article the higher standard is not a hinderance to success but a precursor for it. #culturematters

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Feb. 15, 2018 7:20 a.m.

    Breaking news! If you don't like BYU's honor code, academic standards or its athletic programs, go somewhere else! There is a long line of young men and women who would consider it an honor to take your spot on BYU's campus! Problem solved! Next!

  • HuskyVa SPOTSYLVANIA, VA
    Feb. 15, 2018 6:40 a.m.

    Can we please be honest about how difficult it is to gain entrance to BYU vs. other top schools? BYU's average incoming GPA is 3.86 and they accept 53.4% of applicants - making it only moderately competitive. Stanford, for comparison, has an average incoming GPA of 4.18 and accepts only 5% of applicants. For the poster saying let's join the Ivy League, the easiest Ivy League school to get into, Cornell, accepts only 15% of applicants.

    I attended BYU so I have no reason to trash it. I also took statistics there and gained an appreciation for numbers...

  • 76Cougar Raleigh, NC
    Feb. 15, 2018 6:33 a.m.

    Spin all you want, academic standards at BYU are higher that at other schools in Utah including the u. But, standards at private schools are often higher than at state schools for a reason. State schools are charged with making a college education available to as many applicants as possible, especially if they are residents of the state. Many students benefit from a lower standard, including athletes.

  • utahute69 Laguna Niguel, CA
    Feb. 15, 2018 1:04 a.m.

    I love it when BYU tries to make a case that academics are causing them to have recruiting problems. BYU doesn't have academic requirements that exceed Stanford, UCLA, USC or UC Berkeley. And, that is just the PAC Conference. After watching BYU morphing over the decades, it is apparent that the Cougar Ship lost its rudders. It started with the great new era of independence. All those lofty reasons for independence have long since been forgotten. Now BYU goes beyond the honor code and blames its academic standards for poor recruiting and athletic performance. It was a knee jerk response to Utah's selection for PAC affiliation that set BYU down the course of independence. Now the knee jerk response for rejection to any P5 conference is to make more lame excuses. Now BYU students are so morally and intellectually superior that they can't possibly compete with all those peasant level NCAA schools that have little or no standards. BTW, BYU isn't thought of as a great academic school when compared to the real elite. So, BYU will ultimately lose its national recognition because BYU, like Boise State, made its national reputation on the football field.

  • Adinfinitum Orem, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 10:22 p.m.

    If BYU shuts it down UVU needs to start a football team. Ever growing student enrollment and alumni without all the issues. Easier to enroll and huge upside.

  • HoboA1 Saratoga Springs, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 7:51 p.m.

    Another reason why BYU should pack it up and go home. National prominence is in the rear view mirror. The school's athletic heydays are over.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 7:19 p.m.

    "Yet Stanford does it without a problem. Is Dick saying that BYU-P is tougher to get into than Stanford, or is he saying that good football players don't want to go to BYU-P?"

    Tell me about Stanford's Honor Code again.

  • water rocket Magna, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 7:09 p.m.

    Here is a question that hasn't been asked: Are the academic standards for college entrance too stringent, or are the the high schools too lax with their "jock" athletes? If an athlete has college aspirations, shouldn't their high school coaches and administrators be preparing them to meet the highest standards they will face for entrance? Of course there are always going to be athletes who only care about the sport, and look upon the academic side as a distraction.

  • cmsense Kaysville, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 6:51 p.m.

    BYU needs like 100 walk ons. Get someone from athletics to create an alternate path to admissions to anyone 6 foot 2 or taller and can bench press 300lbs or is as fast as a rabbit.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Feb. 14, 2018 6:35 p.m.

    Mr. Boris - Layton, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 1:31 p.m.
    No question about it. High academic standards are a recruiting issue which is why BYU fans need to lower the expectations. BYU isn't going to compete nationally and that's OK.

    -----------

    Nationally? BYU is currently 5th in the state, overall 3rd behind Utah State.

    BYU "lifestyle" is even more of a recruiting issue, most athletes prefer a secular education.

  • Biff in Mesa Bremerton, WA
    Feb. 14, 2018 6:10 p.m.

    Be careful to look at the past. With so many non-LDS coaches out trying to recruit players, let's make sure book smarts and the quality of the players personality mesh. The Gary Crowton era saw more honor code violations than we've seen with Bronco and Sitaki. Coach Lamb wants good quality walk-ons, lets make sure we are also getting quality scholarship players, too.

  • DEW Cougars Sandy, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 5:50 p.m.

    I remember back in early 80's attending at the Y that they wanted to be the Harvard of the west. Why don't we dump WCC and join Ivy League? WCC is a joke!

  • RockOn1224 Spanish Fork, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 5:20 p.m.

    I'm in favoring of weakening, lessening the academic standards at BYU. Take a look at the student section now at football and basketball. It's dropped because so many of the high scoring students don't have interest in sports. BYU needs to be a more representative sampling of LDS members instead of just elite students. Those students need balance provide by people like I was when they let anyone in.

    Never let schooling interfere with your education.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    Feb. 14, 2018 4:37 p.m.

    "High academic standards make recruiting walk-ons to BYU a real challenge"

    Yet Stanford does it without a problem. Is Dick saying that BYU-P is tougher to get into than Stanford, or is he saying that good football players don't want to go to BYU-P?

  • Obama10 SYRACUSE, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 4:16 p.m.

    I have known a number of kids in my ward with high GPA's. 3.8-4.0 who have not been accepted into BYU, so I am not sure how much better the walk-ons grades could be and these were kids who were raised as BYU fans. It is well known, that if you live out of the state of Utah that your grades can be a little lower, but still need to be close. BYU through high academic standards, honor code, and independence, keep shooting themselves in the foot for sports. As a life-long fan and 25 year season ticket holder to football, it is sad to see the decline.

  • rtimesr2 ALTADENA, CA
    Feb. 14, 2018 3:53 p.m.

    Kind of depends on how one views the mission of a university. Is it to educate individuals or provide an audition path to professional sports? Originally, university sports were used to promote school spirit and provide student entertainment. They have morphed, with the exception of the "minor" sports, into an mega-economic enterprise. Contrast the salary of the football coach with the university president and top professors. It is obvious which is prized more. Extracurricular activity, although beneficial, is not the primary reason for a college education. I am sure there are many students that have misgivings about the system and would enjoy seeing the NFL and NBA fund a network of trade schools for future players. At least then the requirements for entry would be honest... what's your 40? ... any wants or warrants? ... bench press reps? ... ACT or SAT? ... No problem. I find my interest shifting away from the pro like sports toward volleyball, baseball and track. Guess I just miss the amateur aspect of extracurricular activity.

  • Who am I sir? Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 3:34 p.m.

    Just some thoughts this article brought to mind:

    Imagine the advantage a school would have if it was one of a few (I heard only) that could admit "partial qualifiers" while all other FBS schools could not.

    Of the 12 possible walk-on recruits mentioned Rivals had 3 in their data bank. 1 was a 2 star; the others non rated; one had a scholarship offer to Florida A&M, 1 had offers from Weber State, AF, and Army, the other no offers.

    “One of the things we tell kids now is that if they walk on and they are good enough to earn a scholarship, we are not going to go out and recruit a prospect to take the spot they have earned, we’re just going to sign them. We say, ‘You’ve shown us, you’ve been in the system, you’ve earned it and we aren’t going to go and get anyone else for that spot.’ - What do the kids think this means? These players represent RB, WR, All defensive back positions, LB, and DE. Has BYU led them to believe BYU will not recruit these positions while they are Walk-ons? Oh I know the qualifier if "they are good enough to earn a scholarship.." But what is the understanding between player and school?

    Be careful, BYU, going all in on walk-ons may backfire!

  • Sanefan Wellsville, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 3:17 p.m.

    Powertrap may be right. BYU needs to decide who they want to be; a top flight, nationally ranked team or a competitive team, playing opponents of similar caliber. Under todays standards, it would seem the most logical approach would be the latter. The MWC only has 11 teams. BYU could rejoin there. They could still play a few P5 conference opponents each year of equal/similar caliber, like Utah, Arizona, Texas, Mizzou, Nebraska and so on.

  • BlueHusky Mission Viejo, CA
    Feb. 14, 2018 2:47 p.m.

    BYU invests heavily in football, and football revenues help fund the other sports, in particular, women's sports, etc. Nobody knows the numbers, but BYU's facilities are first class. Therefore, it is obvious that they get a lot of money from somewhere.

    Other very selective schools compete in P5 conferences, like Stanford, but many of those have dropped out of the P5. Rice for example. As for BYU, they have a fairly big pool of LDS kids, but they simply cannot recruit based on athleticism alone. The fact that BYU is as competitive as they are, is a credit to the University.

    Unlike Oregon which gets Nike money and Washington which owns a big piece of downtown Seattle, Oregon State and Washington State simply cannot stay competitive with USC, UCLA, Stanford, Oregon and Washington. At some point, there will have to be an adjustment of college football. With revenues falling, I expect some serious changes in the next 10 years.

  • Spoons lake tahoe, NV
    Feb. 14, 2018 2:31 p.m.

    There you have it - let’s get the excuses on record now so when the losing starts we know why.

    BYU is one of the last schools in the country to accept partial qualifiers. Also, if I remember the NCAA would not accept credits from BYU online a few years ago because the classes didn’t meet NCAA requirements.

  • TheHobbit Bountiful, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 2:31 p.m.

    Has recruiting at Brigham gotten so bad that the football team is worried about being able to academically qualify walk-ons?

    We are talking about walk-ons, right?

    This is the same team that was able to bring on a non-academic qualifier in Dayan Lake--so why are they worried about walk-ons?

  • red.diehard Central, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 2:30 p.m.

    @blue & white

    ' I herd the U’s admission standard is a lot lower. '

    I herd cows, occasionally.

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    Feb. 14, 2018 2:27 p.m.

    Reason #1000 to back off this brutal front-loaded Indie schedule and play a schedule more in line with these recruiting restrictions. Between the Honor Code and these academic standards, BYU needs to do an honest self evaluation. It's time to seriously consider joining a G-5 conference. Hopefully that bridge wasn't burned. Cue the "Independence is Fantastic" comments.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 2:22 p.m.

    Or could it be that the good athletes...and coaches...are "smart" to sign elsewhere.

  • red.diehard Central, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 2:19 p.m.

    Confusing article.
    Is this hype?
    Excuse making (hard to believe this time of year)?
    both?

  • ekute Layton, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 1:57 p.m.

    It's a wonder that Lavell and Bronco were ever able to win a game.

  • blue & white Boise, ID
    Feb. 14, 2018 1:57 p.m.

    It would be interesting to know how the Y’s admission standards compare to other D1 schools in Utah, mostly the U of U. I herd the U’s admission standard is a lot lower. And the big picture admission standards of those colleges that finish in the top 10 over the last 5 years.

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 1:42 p.m.

    Wow, what a quandary. Why would anyone want to coach at BYU when there are so many hoops for them to jump through in order to get academically qualified students who can also play football?

    I know I'm just a fan, but since BYU puts so much emphasis on being a top flight, winning football program - why not expand the requirements so that they can recruit kids that can win football games? Let's say a kid has a "C+" average GPA and is a good kid who happens to be able to play football very well. Why does he have to meet the "B+" GPA standard if he is a gifted football player who can contribute to attaining this mighty sports image that BYU craves so much?

    One could argue that this "football talent" can substitue for some of the GPA stuff if you want to field a top flight program - don't limit who can play so much. Now, I'm not saying they don't have to be decent students, but there is a difference between a "student-athlete" and a "student".

    If BYU ties the hands of the football coaches - why even have a football program? Just bag it.

  • Mr. Boris Layton, UT
    Feb. 14, 2018 1:31 p.m.

    No question about it. High academic standards are a recruiting issue which is why BYU fans need to lower the expectations. BYU isn't going to compete nationally and that's OK.

    I know all about the high academic standards. I would have loved to go to BYU. I applied but I wasn't that great of a student so I had to settle for the U.