Shouldn't the main source of your football teams' talent be, you
know... the players recruited on scholarship?
Just the FAX:"Sorry navel vet, but all you have is theories and
speculation, because don’t have any hard data to back up your
claims."On the contrary my frantic and emotional little bro,
I'm the only one here who DID produce hard data to back my my claims. You
on the other hand, had produced nothing more than the "nuh-uh" defense.
Typical hypocritical coug."The truth is, you don’t have a
clue where every BYU and Utah grad moved after graduation"Yes I
do. And by response, it's YOU who hasn't a clue. So yeah, like
I'd said, typical hypocritical coug. Only the most "uneducated" of
fans -- like the ones mendenmidmajor was talking about for example -- believes,
that U and Y alumni leave the state at anywhere NEAR the same rate.BlueCoug:"Navelvet is grasping at straws because he just
can’t handle the fact that new BYU graduates make substantially more than
new Utah graduates..."On the contrary little bro, you're
crapping your pants over the fact that I'd just exposed that there is no
evidence whatsoever that this is true from an apples-to-apples comparison.
I'd already presented the evidence that was so irrefutable, you didn't
even try. How miserable for you.
There is so much red and blue mud being slung by the commentators in this column
it is a joke. What I would really like to see is a bunch of these gifted writers
all meet on a football field with Red v Blue uniforms on. I think the result
would be a bunch of bleeding and bruised up old men whose egos got crushed with
the game ending in a tie. Like most of the comments here that game would be
Navelvet is grasping at straws because he just can’t handle the fact that
new BYU graduates make substantially more than new Utah graduates - $12,000 more
than the national average.
Sorry navel vet, but all you have is theories and speculation, because
don’t have any hard data to back up your claims.The truth is,
you don’t have a clue where every BYU and Utah grad moved after
graduation, and without that information, it’s IMPOSSIBLE to calculate
average cost of living.There are literally tens of thousands of
places that new BYU grads could move to out of state that have a LOWER cost of
living than metro Salt Lake City.
Riverton Cougar:"I didn't say I'd never read
it..."Yes you DID! You said, "I don't have the time to
read through the analysis..." So how could you have read it, if you
didn't read through the analysis?Busted.Here is
what that article stated..."Outcome scores are derived from
graduation rates, income after graduation, debt repayment and academic
reputation."And that's it. It said nothing about the
geographic region the alumni are working at.But another WSJ article
("Salaries Soar for the Class of 2017" by Kelsey Gee) stated that
workers in Los Angeles were making less than similar employees in San Francisco
or New York! And that's due to "geography"! Not "alma
mater"! And per NerdWallet's Cost of Living calculator, folks earning
$50K in St. George, UT had the same buying power as folks in L.A. making $74K.
Again, "geography"; not "alma mater"!And since I was
able to back my position up with verifiable facts, and you'd accidentally
admitted that you had no facts whatsoever, and thus failed to back up one iota
of your claim......then MY facts are the only valid ones presented
here. Edge: Naval Vet. I win. You lose. How miserable for you. Haha!
"So in other words, what you're saying is, you'd never read the
article that Uteanymous cited, but you somehow just know that the alumni from
both institutions were graded by the same standard? How is that
possible?"Are you serious? Your posts are getting so far out
there that I sometimes wonder if you're actually a BYU fan troll trying to
make Ute fans look bad.I didn't say I'd never read it,
first of all. Secondly, some things are common enough knowledge that one
shouldn't be ridiculed for suggesting. I think the analysis was written in
English. Is that too presumptuous for you, or do I have to read it to be
sure?But if you want to go ahead and prove your point, then find out
where in the analysis BYU grads and/or U grads are graded by a different
standard than the others. I'll admit I'm wrong if you find anything
like that in there. Good luck.
Riverton Cougar:"I don't have the time to read through the
analysis (which apparently you do), so I can't comment on the specifics of
the analysis.....U grads and Y grads were graded by the same standard, and the U
came up short."So in other words, what you're saying is,
you'd never read the article that Uteanymous cited, but you somehow just
know that the alumni from both institutions were graded by the same standard?
How is that possible? Why don't you just say, "I have no idea what
I'm talking about, but I wish so hard for it to be true, that it MUST
be!" At least then I wouldn't be able to argue with you.
"But they DIDN'T run those salaries through a 'Cost of Living
Index' filter! So that WSJ report makes it look like an Accountant in Los
Angeles making $60K is better than one in St. George making $50K, when in fact,
it isn't!You clearly don't have a degree in Finance,
Economics, Statistics, or Math, since you don't know how to interpret an
analytical report."@NavalI'm sorry, but if
you're hanging your hat on that then you know it's not looking
good.I don't have the time to read through the analysis (which
apparently you do), so I can't comment on the specifics of the analysis or
comb through the detail. However, your 60k in LA vs 50k in St. George is
hypothetical anyway, and in no way proves that BYU grads make only slightly more
than U grads rather than significantly more than, unless you can prove that the
analytical report is full of those kinds of examples (where BYU grads make more
money, but in a city with a significantly higher cost of living than the
comparable U grad).U grads and Y grads were graded by the same
standard, and the U came up short.
blue n gold:"Utah loses just as many recruits to
Stanford."What does that have anything to do with
"CougarPassion's" frantic, emotional, and wholly unsupportable case
that the difference between Stanford recruits and the indy-waters
"isn't great"??? Were you embarrassed that yet another cougar fan
was exposed, so you panicked and threw out a red herring about Utah's
annual Top-50 recruiting classes?
LonestarSpinner:"WSJ's value-added measure of salaries was
calculated by comparing predicted salaries-based on factors including
students' SAT scores, family income and an institution's population of
first-generation college students-and the actual outcomes for recent
graduates."But they DIDN'T run those salaries through a
"Cost of Living Index" filter! So that WSJ report makes it look like an
Accountant in Los Angeles making $60K is better than one in St. George making
$50K, when in fact, it isn't!You clearly don't have a
degree in Finance, Economics, Statistics, or Math, since you don't know how
to interpret an analytical report.
Big J"This is not the reason but it makes the fans feel
better."It's not THE reason, but it is one of many reasons
- very high academic standards, honor code, LDS culture, non-P5, location,
relatively small minority community.It doesn't matter whether
it makes you feel better, or not, it simply recognizes reality.
This is not the reason but it makes the fans feel better. We can't recruit
or complete but its because we are such a great academic school. It would just
be better to come to grips with what BYU has always been...
Naval Vet"Stanford might lose head-to-head battles to BYU on 1
or 2 recruits, but that doesn't suggest the "difference" is
small."Utah loses just as many recruits to Stanford.Anytime a Utah or LDS recruit chooses Stanford, he's basically rejecting
BYU and Utah.
blue n gold:"Star Lotulelei is a prime example of such a player
who couldn't qualify academically to attend BYU."No,
he's not really a very good example, because he couldn't qualify at
any of the other schools either. He was an academic non-qualifier. However,
once he completed his JUCO requirements, he DID qualify to attend the Y, and the
Y DID offer him a scholarship spot. He just didn't want to go there. He
preferred the U.
CougarPassion:"No, BYU isn't on the same level as Stanford,
but that Stanford is all too often interested in BYU recruits tells us the
difference isn't great."Yes it is. The difference is
ENORMOUS! Stanford might lose head-to-head battles to the indy-WACers on 1 or 2
recruits, but that doesn't suggest the "difference" is small. It
suggests the "occurrences" are. And that's really just another way
saying how "rare" Stanford is interested in cougar recruits.
One point that seems to have been missed in the discussion is we're talking
about walk-ons, who not only have to qualify academically, but also have to pay
their own way.Stanford, Duke and other brainiac schools may have
higher admission standards, but how many players choose to walk on at those
schools with nothing but the hope that they might be able to join the football
team?How many players who might have walked on at BYU, end up going
to Utah or Utah State because they don't meet BYU's higher academic
standards?Star Lotulelei is a prime example of such a player who
couldn't qualify academically to attend BYU. An entire pipeline of players
ended up at Utah, instead of at BYU, specifically because of BYU's higher
It's interesting that in a national study of value added college education,
the Wall Street Journal chose specifically to highlight BYU:"One
example is Brigham Young University, Provo. It was 113th in the overall ranking,
but 40th in outcomes thanks to a high graduation rate and average annual
earnings for recent graduates that are $12,000 more than predicted."
Naval Vet"First of all, your new alumni don't earn
"substantially more" than ours."Actually, they do."It's only "marginally" more."Nope,
it's substantially more."And second, it isn't because
they're taught to "solve real world problems" either. It's
because your alumni are more inclined to move back home after graduation,
whereas Utah alumni are more inclined to remain in Utah."More
made up claims.Lots of BYU graduates from out-of-state, stay in Utah
after graduation. Lots of commuter school graduates leave the state
after graduation.You're always full of whiny excuses, but the
Wall Street Journal says otherwise:Colleges Whose Graduates Do the
Best Financially#113 BYU#312 UtahBYU was 113th in the
overall ranking, but 40th in outcomes thanks to a high graduation rate and
average annual earnings for recent graduates that are $12,000 more than
predicted.How much higher than predicted average annual earnings for
recent graduates were Utah graduates?
Uteology"Which programs?"Best National
Universities#61 BYU#110 UtahBest High School Counselor
Rankings#75 BYU#156 UtahBest Business Schools#34
BYU#57 UtahColleges Whose Graduates Do the Best Financially
(Wall Street Journal)#113 BYU#312 UtahWSJ's
value-added measure of salaries was calculated by comparing predicted
salaries—based on factors including students’ SAT scores, family
income and an institution’s population of first-generation college
students—and the actual outcomes for recent graduates. One
example is Brigham Young University, Provo. It was 113th in the overall ranking,
but 40th in outcomes thanks to a high graduation rate and average annual
earnings for recent graduates that are $12,000 more than predicted.
As has been alluded to by others, the admission numbers don't tell the
whole story when comparing BYU and Stanford. No, BYU isn't on the same
level as Stanford, but that Stanford is all too often interested in BYU recruits
tells us the difference isn't great. One poster pointed out that Stanford
accepts 5% of applicants while BYU is around 50%. That shows both that Stanford
factually has a *much* larger recruiting pool than BYU, but also highlights a
problem that turns too many LDS into fans of another school: the vast majority
of those who are BYU fans don't bother applying to BYU because they know
they won't get in (I know this from my own extended family, as well as
within my ward; other than my daughter and one family in my ward, none of the
BYU fans I know have even applied). And I can corroborate what another poster
said about the difficulty: when I told a couple of colleagues about my daughter
getting in, they both said the same thing with different details: "It's
so hard to get in. A kid in my ward had a 3.9 GPA and 32 ACT/3.97 GPA and 34
ACT, and didn't get in!" So I frankly think it's a waste of time
any more for BYU coaches to talk about recruiting walk-ons.
Uteanymous:"There’s a reason that new BYU graduates earn
substantially more than new Utah graduates....BYU graduates are taught how to
think to solve real world problems, rather than being taught what is politically
correct to think to solve made up problems."First of all, your
new alumni don't earn "substantially more" than ours. It's
only "marginally" more. And second, it isn't because they're
taught to "solve real world problems" either. It's because your
alumni are more inclined to move back home after graduation, whereas Utah alumni
are more inclined to remain in Utah. And Utah traditionally pays lower than
states such as CA, NY, MA, WA, etc. Nevertheless, there had been no
study that calculated alumni wages flattened out via "Cost of Living
Index". A new alumnus making $50K in St. George "technically" makes
less than another similar alumnus who lives in L.A. making $60K. But which one
has the higher standard of living?Answer: The St. George alumnus.
His $50K = $74K in L.A. -- or $14K more than the L.A. guy making only $60K.FACT!P.S.: Of course I didn't last long in WACistan.
My thinking won't been done FOR me, so I opted to transfer.
NevadaCoug:"Sounds like somebody is blinded by his hatred of a
religion."Wrong! I'm LDS! Just because I disdain the
school down south, that doesn't make me a religious bigot. Sounds like you
have a bit of a persecution complex. That's actually fairly typical of the
sort of mindless cyborgs that traditionally enroll at the Y, and choose to
remain there.And FWIW, I took Biology down there as part of my core
coursework, so I know that they teach evolution. But that was neither here nor
there since the student body wasn't interested in challenging the
professor. All they cared about was whether or not the material he'd
addressed would be on the test. That's it. So yeah....cyborgs.
london_josh - lincoln, CASecond, sure, Stanford is hard too, the
combination of an enforced honor code and academic standards make BYU very
unique in terms of recruiting. I'm not sure why anybody chooses to argue
this fact.------------That and lack of African American
talent.Here's one example, African American recruits in 2018
class:* Utah 9 of 20 (45%) * Stanford 8 of 15 (53%) *
BYU 3 of 23 (13%)
This article is about "walk on" student athletes not scholarship
athletes. Yes, BYU has high admission standards for rank and file students as
thousands of LDS kids from around the country/world want to attend. No argument
there. However, some BYU fans like to perpetuate the myth that the academic
admission criteria apply to scholarship athletes as well and that is
categorically false.Like most Division 1 schools, BYU admits
scholarship athletes who have extremely mediocre high school academic
credentials all the time. Let's be honest and acknowledge the high school
academic performance of most Division 1 scholarship athletes is very comparable
regardless of what university they attend.Best wishes to any walk-on
who can dedicate the time to academics and their sport without the advantages of
Uteanymous“...new BYU graduates earn substantially more than
new Utah graduates.”True, because BYU graduates are better
prepared to tackle real world problems, which is precisely what employers are
@phoenix - Gilbert, AZAcademically, in undergraduate studies, which
accounts the fields of study for the vast majority of athletes...BYU
> Utah-SLC-------------------Which programs? Your
programs are as bad as your football team: Utah #34 BYU #112STEM
programs, for example:Biological Sciences: Utah #55 BYU #139Computer Science: Utah #40 BYU #90Chemistry: Utah #35 BYU #106Math: Utah #34 BYU #73Physics: Utah #65 BYU #111Engineer: Utah #52
BYU #102Odd that BYU is not even better in Social Work: Utah #52 BYU
#104Source: US News (All Program Rankings)
The demographics of college football has changed greatly in the last 30 years.
The typical college player today probably can't meet admission standards
at BYU. Some do not go to class or even do their own homework. The high
ethical standards at BYU combined with the academic standards make it very
difficult to land the "athletes" that we might find at an SEC school.
This puts a special burden on the coaching staff in terms of recruiting and game
planning. How long has it been since the BYU offense was considered
creative? Do we really recruit all over the nation or do we focus on 4 or 5
states? Is there enough money available for recruiting or are we loosing
prospects because we can't afford to visit them?
Navel vetDon’t kid yourself, we all know that you didn’t
last long enough at BYU to learn much of anything.There’s a
reason that new BYU graduates earn substantially more than new Utah
graduates.BYU graduates are taught how to think to solve real world
problems, rather than being taught what is politically correct to think to solve
made up problems.
" Also, at the Y, students are taught "what" to think"Not my experience at all. Students were often at odds with professors, and
not in the way you might think. For example, you would probably think that
professors at BYU would be disdainful of evolutionary theories. Not the case.
I vividly remember a very heated debate in a freshman biology class where the
prof was promoting evolution as a scientific fact, which did not sit well with
some students. Professors and TAs at BYU were constantly challenging students
to rethink their outlook on certain things.I also had a Poly-Sci
class from a prof who had just been hired at BYU. His previous school?
Cal-Berkley. Yes, ideas and beliefs were challenged."why the
indy-WACers always constantly cling to myths. "Sounds like
somebody is blinded by his hatred of a religion.And all this talk of
people at BYU being "all the same?" Yeah, no. There are students there
from all over the world, with extremely different backgrounds. Just because
most have a unifying religion does NOT make them the same.
High standards area a great problem to have. Let's hope that it never
The article is about the difficulty in gaining admission to BYU for those
wanting to "walk-on" for athletics. It isn't about how much better
a U of U education is or which is the best "research" institution. It is
no secret that BYU has higher admission criteria than the U or just about any
other western university. There is intense competition for a BYU education. That
is the fact. A student must have a higher high school GPA, a higher SAT or ACT
score, etc. to get into BYU, in addition to pledging to adhere to a strict honor
code. If any university wants to hold their applicants ( even athletes) to a
higher standard, that should be a good thing, even if it means not getting that
wide receiver who can't even read his high school diploma.
@Riverton Cougar"with only about 30% of BYU's population
coming from Utah compared to approximately 80% of undergrads at the U, ...., so
I'm calling your bluff."The first "forum" I
attended at the Y a speaker said BYU is perhaps the most diversified school in
the nation. And he went on the say the Y had students from every state and X
number of countries" And I said, "Yes. that is what I'm looking
for in a college. I don't doubt he was right (geographically speaking).
What he didn't say was that 95% were mormons, 98% white, 30-40% returned
missionaries. Most out of state kids came to the Y to be with fellow Mormons
and almost every female came to find a Mormon husband! Sounds a lot
like your argument. 70% of BYU students came from out of Utah while
"approximately 80% " of Utah's freshman class came from Utah. So
obviously, to you, the Y is more diverse. That was what the Y wanted me and
others to believe.Can I raise once you called my "bluff"? I
win now and won then.
Mr. Boris:"All I know is I spent four years at the U and I is
pretty sure I aint as smart as I was before I went to the U. The average student
at the U doesn't even compare to the Y."If you'd spent
all 4 of your years at the U, then how would you know how the average student
compares to the Y? Like "Who am I sir?", I attended BOTH
schools, so we know better than you how the average U student compares to the Y.
And that answer is, U students are far more "academically curious" than
our indy-WACey counterpart, who rather than being taught "how to think",
are mainly taught "what to think". That's why Utah
alumni are smarter than the indy-WACers, and why the indy-WACers always
constantly cling to myths. And for the record, I seriously doubt
you ever attended even one day of class at the U. You sound more like someone
who'd been rejected by the Y so they attended UVU, Snow, or Weber St. You
also sound like someone who'd never actually graduated either. More likely
a college drop-out who works in either a call center, or door-to-door MLM sales.
No wonder you're not very impressed with yourself.
Sanefan:"The MWC only has 11 teams. BYU could rejoin
there."No they don't. And no they couldn't. Never in the history of the MWC had there been 11-members. The MWC
membership was at 8 from 1999-2004, and again in 2011 , 9 from 2005-10, 10 in
2012, and 12 from 2013 on. When the cougars left the MWC,
they'd burned their bridges with that league's charter members, so
they'll never vote to let you all back in. MWC bylaws require a 75%
approval vote, and with schools like SDSU, Wyo, Colo St, and UNM, you'll
never get that 75%. And for what it's worth, I seriously doubt schools
like UH or UNLV would be favorable to your inclusion either. And why
hadn't you played AFA since 2010? They don't like you guys either?
"If they meet the standards we
..and are passed over, we seek
them." - Ilaisa Tuiaki That's a great strategy
teams whose ceilings are 4-5 wins/season. No wonder the indy-WACers were the
"bottom feeders" of last year's independents. Haha!
"It's a completely different language for us. We are only using that
term 'preferred walk-on' for those who can get into school on their
own, who meet the academic profile, who are above the line of the average
incoming freshman student." - Ed LambThis sounds like an
"excuse" for being so mediocre. For starters, we're not talking
about scholarship players - i.e. the guys who are expected to make impactful
contributions to the team. We're only talking about "walk-ons" -
i.e. the ones that rarely make it off the Scout team.Second, why are
these walk-ons being expected to be "ABOVE the line of the average incoming
student"??? If the "average" ACT score is 29.5, why must they score
a 30? And if the "average" is 29.5, then that means that there are kids
scoring BELOW that mark. Like a 25, a 26, or 27 - students who balance out
those kids scoring 31s, 32s, or 33s.And finally, we all know that
the Y signs academic non-qualifiers, so I just don't buy the notion that
can't get a PWO in under the cougars' general admission requirements.
Especially seeing as how my 2nd point exposed the flaw in Lamb's version as
to why the indy-WACers talent is so mediocre.
First of all the answer is 88% and the correct question was if a student is
accepted to both BYU and Utah how often do they choose BYU. Second,
sure, Stanford is hard too, the combination of an enforced honor code and
academic standards make BYU very unique in terms of recruiting. I'm not
sure why anybody chooses to argue this fact.
@utahute69"I love it when BYU tries to make a case that
academics are causing them to have recruiting problems. BYU doesn't have
academic requirements that exceed Stanford, UCLA, USC or UC Berkeley. And, that
is just the PAC Conference."*sigh*Ute fans will be
Ute fans and not acknowledge that there's another huge element: the Honor
Code.Nobody is saying BYU is on par with the Ivy League schools
academically, just that with BYU's relatively high acceptance standards in
combination with the Honor Code makes it difficult to get recruits. We're
also not saying that getting walk-ons is easy at schools like Stanford or Cal,
just that it's not easy at BYU either.@Who am I sirYour anecdote is first of its kind that I've heard. In fact, like Ute
Alum, I usually (if not always) hear the opposite. And you see what you are
looking for; I doubt 95% of the students were just like you. In fact, with only
about 30% of BYU's population coming from Utah compared to approximately
80% of undergrads at the U, you most likely had much more in common with U
students (or at least U students are more homogeneous) than BYU students, so
I'm calling your bluff.
Stoa"BYU is a solid school that’s more competitive than a
lot of colleges but why do folks continue to peddle and accept the wishful
narrative that BYU is the same as Stanford, Duke, Vandy, etc"It's laughable how the haters are constantly forced to make up
strawmen.Academically, in undergraduate studies, which accounts the
fields of study for the vast majority of athletes...BYU >
Guess Jim McMahon wouldn't "measure up" today.............or, would
Another "Pity poor me" article from the state's major cheerleader
for the TDS. Why not just write, 'It is very, very hard for a really
excellent school (like the one I support) to recruit good athletes- that's
why we had such a lousy record last year' and save the rest of the
newsprint and ink?
BYU-P is a solid school that’s more competitive than a lot of colleges but
why do folks continue to peddle and accept the wishful narrative that BYU-P is
the same as Stanford, Duke, Vandy, etc in “academic prestige” ? If
BYU-P ever reaches acceptance rates of
Who am I sir?I attended both and graduated from the U, but I never
learned anything at the U that I couldn't have learned living in the real
world.One thing I did learn at the U is that the classes were far
less rigorous and less academically challenging than similar classes that
I'd taken at the Y.
All I know is I spent four years at the U and I is pretty sure I aint as smart
as I was before I went to the U. The average student at the U doesn't even
compare to the Y.We are talking about walk ons who would have
already had to been admitted before they walked onto the football team. We
aren't talking about preferred walk ons or scholarship players.The bigger issue is the honor code. Most players want a "secular"
education? Whatever that means. Sorry but most BYU students aren't like
other college students. They are different and that doesn't make them
better than other students morally. It just means different. But to say that
the average student at BYU academically isn't better than the other schools
in the state is simply not true.
@Mr. BorisI was accepted to BYU and attended school there. It was midway through the first year that I realized 98% of the student
body was just like me. How could I learn from them? All believed the same as
me. Essentially they were just like me. The whole concept of college was
for different people getting together to learn from each other - to be exposed
to new ideas, to strengthen my personality by expressing my understandings while
learning from others. After that first year I transferred to the University of
Utah where I was able to get a "complete" education. Go
The way I see it, is that this article is about walkons.... these are kids who
arent recruited to play elsewhere and go to BYU and then decide they want a
tryout. This article also stated that the athletic department has a leaway for
scholarshiped athletes on admission standards. So..... the coaches recruite the
athletes they want, the athlete gets admitted and all is complete. Then the
walk on comes along.... coaches are getting greedy and want more and more and
more. Then they whine when they don't get their way. Some sob story
HoboA1"Another reason why BYU should pack it up and go home.
National prominence is in the rear view mirror. The school's athletic
heydays are over."Unfortunately for U, Utah has never had any
real national prominence and Utah's athletic heydays pale by comparison to
BYU's.Just another reason why BYU should never pack it in and
go home.It would rob U of the opportunity to continue to live in
HuskyVa"Can we please be honest about how difficult it is to
gain entrance to BYU vs. other top schools?"If you're going
to be honest, then why didn't you include a comparison between BYU and all
of the PAC 12 schools, especially, Utah? A comparison of academic
standards and acceptance rates between BYU and Ivy League schools is completely
meaningless in terms of football walkons.
Dont change the academic standards at BYU. Recruit athletes that are able to
meet the standard. They are out there. Contrary to the coaching staff,
specifically Tuiaki in this article the higher standard is not a hinderance to
success but a precursor for it. #culturematters
Breaking news! If you don't like BYU's honor code, academic standards
or its athletic programs, go somewhere else! There is a long line of young men
and women who would consider it an honor to take your spot on BYU's campus!
Problem solved! Next!
Can we please be honest about how difficult it is to gain entrance to BYU vs.
other top schools? BYU's average incoming GPA is 3.86 and they accept
53.4% of applicants - making it only moderately competitive. Stanford, for
comparison, has an average incoming GPA of 4.18 and accepts only 5% of
applicants. For the poster saying let's join the Ivy League, the easiest
Ivy League school to get into, Cornell, accepts only 15% of applicants. I attended BYU so I have no reason to trash it. I also took statistics
there and gained an appreciation for numbers...
Spin all you want, academic standards at BYU are higher that at other schools in
Utah including the u. But, standards at private schools are often higher than at
state schools for a reason. State schools are charged with making a college
education available to as many applicants as possible, especially if they are
residents of the state. Many students benefit from a lower standard, including
I love it when BYU tries to make a case that academics are causing them to have
recruiting problems. BYU doesn't have academic requirements that exceed
Stanford, UCLA, USC or UC Berkeley. And, that is just the PAC Conference.
After watching BYU morphing over the decades, it is apparent that the Cougar
Ship lost its rudders. It started with the great new era of independence. All
those lofty reasons for independence have long since been forgotten. Now BYU
goes beyond the honor code and blames its academic standards for poor recruiting
and athletic performance. It was a knee jerk response to Utah's selection
for PAC affiliation that set BYU down the course of independence. Now the knee
jerk response for rejection to any P5 conference is to make more lame excuses.
Now BYU students are so morally and intellectually superior that they can't
possibly compete with all those peasant level NCAA schools that have little or
no standards. BTW, BYU isn't thought of as a great academic school when
compared to the real elite. So, BYU will ultimately lose its national
recognition because BYU, like Boise State, made its national reputation on the
If BYU shuts it down UVU needs to start a football team. Ever growing student
enrollment and alumni without all the issues. Easier to enroll and huge
Another reason why BYU should pack it up and go home. National prominence is in
the rear view mirror. The school's athletic heydays are over.
"Yet Stanford does it without a problem. Is Dick saying that BYU-P is
tougher to get into than Stanford, or is he saying that good football players
don't want to go to BYU-P?"Tell me about Stanford's
Honor Code again.
Here is a question that hasn't been asked: Are the academic standards for
college entrance too stringent, or are the the high schools too lax with their
"jock" athletes? If an athlete has college aspirations, shouldn't
their high school coaches and administrators be preparing them to meet the
highest standards they will face for entrance? Of course there are always going
to be athletes who only care about the sport, and look upon the academic side as
BYU needs like 100 walk ons. Get someone from athletics to create an alternate
path to admissions to anyone 6 foot 2 or taller and can bench press 300lbs or is
as fast as a rabbit.
Mr. Boris - Layton, UTFeb. 14, 2018 1:31 p.m.No question about it.
High academic standards are a recruiting issue which is why BYU fans need to
lower the expectations. BYU isn't going to compete nationally and
that's OK.-----------Nationally? BYU is currently
5th in the state, overall 3rd behind Utah State.BYU
"lifestyle" is even more of a recruiting issue, most athletes prefer a
Be careful to look at the past. With so many non-LDS coaches out trying to
recruit players, let's make sure book smarts and the quality of the players
personality mesh. The Gary Crowton era saw more honor code violations than
we've seen with Bronco and Sitaki. Coach Lamb wants good quality walk-ons,
lets make sure we are also getting quality scholarship players, too.
I remember back in early 80's attending at the Y that they wanted to be the
Harvard of the west. Why don't we dump WCC and join Ivy League? WCC is a
I'm in favoring of weakening, lessening the academic standards at BYU. Take
a look at the student section now at football and basketball. It's dropped
because so many of the high scoring students don't have interest in sports.
BYU needs to be a more representative sampling of LDS members instead of just
elite students. Those students need balance provide by people like I was when
they let anyone in.Never let schooling interfere with your
RobinLet me help you. The article didn’t say anything about BYU
being more difficult than Stanford. Comprehension is really important when
commenting on an article.
"High academic standards make recruiting walk-ons to BYU a real
challenge"Yet Stanford does it without a problem. Is Dick saying
that BYU-P is tougher to get into than Stanford, or is he saying that good
football players don't want to go to BYU-P?
I have known a number of kids in my ward with high GPA's. 3.8-4.0 who have
not been accepted into BYU, so I am not sure how much better the walk-ons grades
could be and these were kids who were raised as BYU fans. It is well known,
that if you live out of the state of Utah that your grades can be a little
lower, but still need to be close. BYU through high academic standards, honor
code, and independence, keep shooting themselves in the foot for sports. As a
life-long fan and 25 year season ticket holder to football, it is sad to see the
Kind of depends on how one views the mission of a university. Is it to educate
individuals or provide an audition path to professional sports? Originally,
university sports were used to promote school spirit and provide student
entertainment. They have morphed, with the exception of the "minor"
sports, into an mega-economic enterprise. Contrast the salary of the football
coach with the university president and top professors. It is obvious which is
prized more. Extracurricular activity, although beneficial, is not the primary
reason for a college education. I am sure there are many students that have
misgivings about the system and would enjoy seeing the NFL and NBA fund a
network of trade schools for future players. At least then the requirements for
entry would be honest... what's your 40? ... any wants or warrants? ...
bench press reps? ... ACT or SAT? ... No problem. I find my interest shifting
away from the pro like sports toward volleyball, baseball and track. Guess I
just miss the amateur aspect of extracurricular activity.
Just some thoughts this article brought to mind:Imagine the
advantage a school would have if it was one of a few (I heard only) that could
admit "partial qualifiers" while all other FBS schools could not.Of the 12 possible walk-on recruits mentioned Rivals had 3 in their data
bank. 1 was a 2 star; the others non rated; one had a scholarship offer to
Florida A&M, 1 had offers from Weber State, AF, and Army, the other no
offers.“One of the things we tell kids now is that if they
walk on and they are good enough to earn a scholarship, we are not going to go
out and recruit a prospect to take the spot they have earned, we’re just
going to sign them. We say, ‘You’ve shown us, you’ve been in
the system, you’ve earned it and we aren’t going to go and get
anyone else for that spot.’ - What do the kids think this means? These
players represent RB, WR, All defensive back positions, LB, and DE. Has BYU led
them to believe BYU will not recruit these positions while they are Walk-ons?
Oh I know the qualifier if "they are good enough to earn a
scholarship.." But what is the understanding between player and school?Be careful, BYU, going all in on walk-ons may backfire!
Powertrap may be right. BYU needs to decide who they want to be; a top flight,
nationally ranked team or a competitive team, playing opponents of similar
caliber. Under todays standards, it would seem the most logical approach would
be the latter. The MWC only has 11 teams. BYU could rejoin there. They could
still play a few P5 conference opponents each year of equal/similar caliber,
like Utah, Arizona, Texas, Mizzou, Nebraska and so on.
BYU invests heavily in football, and football revenues help fund the other
sports, in particular, women's sports, etc. Nobody knows the numbers, but
BYU's facilities are first class. Therefore, it is obvious that they get a
lot of money from somewhere.Other very selective schools compete in
P5 conferences, like Stanford, but many of those have dropped out of the P5.
Rice for example. As for BYU, they have a fairly big pool of LDS kids, but they
simply cannot recruit based on athleticism alone. The fact that BYU is as
competitive as they are, is a credit to the University.Unlike Oregon
which gets Nike money and Washington which owns a big piece of downtown Seattle,
Oregon State and Washington State simply cannot stay competitive with USC, UCLA,
Stanford, Oregon and Washington. At some point, there will have to be an
adjustment of college football. With revenues falling, I expect some serious
changes in the next 10 years.
There you have it - let’s get the excuses on record now so when the losing
starts we know why.BYU is one of the last schools in the country to
accept partial qualifiers. Also, if I remember the NCAA would not accept credits
from BYU online a few years ago because the classes didn’t meet NCAA
Has recruiting at Brigham gotten so bad that the football team is worried about
being able to academically qualify walk-ons?We are talking about
walk-ons, right?This is the same team that was able to bring on a
non-academic qualifier in Dayan Lake--so why are they worried about walk-ons?
@blue & white' I herd the U’s admission standard is a
lot lower. 'I herd cows, occasionally.
Reason #1000 to back off this brutal front-loaded Indie schedule and play a
schedule more in line with these recruiting restrictions. Between the Honor
Code and these academic standards, BYU needs to do an honest self evaluation.
It's time to seriously consider joining a G-5 conference. Hopefully that
bridge wasn't burned. Cue the "Independence is Fantastic"
Or could it be that the good athletes...and coaches...are "smart" to
Confusing article.Is this hype? Excuse making (hard to believe this
time of year)? both?
It's a wonder that Lavell and Bronco were ever able to win a game.
It would be interesting to know how the Y’s admission standards compare to
other D1 schools in Utah, mostly the U of U. I herd the U’s admission
standard is a lot lower. And the big picture admission standards of those
colleges that finish in the top 10 over the last 5 years.
Wow, what a quandary. Why would anyone want to coach at BYU when there are so
many hoops for them to jump through in order to get academically qualified
students who can also play football?I know I'm just a fan, but
since BYU puts so much emphasis on being a top flight, winning football program
- why not expand the requirements so that they can recruit kids that can win
football games? Let's say a kid has a "C+" average GPA and is a
good kid who happens to be able to play football very well. Why does he have to
meet the "B+" GPA standard if he is a gifted football player who can
contribute to attaining this mighty sports image that BYU craves so much?One could argue that this "football talent" can substitue for
some of the GPA stuff if you want to field a top flight program - don't
limit who can play so much. Now, I'm not saying they don't have to be
decent students, but there is a difference between a "student-athlete"
and a "student". If BYU ties the hands of the football
coaches - why even have a football program? Just bag it.
No question about it. High academic standards are a recruiting issue which is
why BYU fans need to lower the expectations. BYU isn't going to compete
nationally and that's OK.I know all about the high academic
standards. I would have loved to go to BYU. I applied but I wasn't that
great of a student so I had to settle for the U.