Letter: Capitalism is not evil

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  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 13, 2018 8:24 p.m.

    Redshirt1701 - Deep Space 9, Ut

    To "Ultra Bob" ok, tell us what nation has collapsed under Capitalism. I can name quite a few that have collapsed under systems that are either collectivist or else have strong centralized governments that prevent capitalism from functioning.

    I believe that every nation in the history of the world was created by people who sought to controll the world by controlling that which we call money. Not counting those nations that fail from being concurred, these nations eventually fail because of internal corruption of the leaders, in their quest for being the King of the world.

    Seems like I recently saw a post of a comment from Joseph Smith saying the same thing with different words.

    Since I believe money to be the prime mover for nation building, I believe that all nations are Capitalist and that Capitalism forms the basis for every nation.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Jan. 12, 2018 12:24 p.m.

    To "Sportsfan123" until you can implement Capitalism or Communism without people, I will continue to push for capitalism. The people that get involved with communism tend to kill a lot of other people.

  • Sportsfan123 Salt lake, UT
    Jan. 12, 2018 11:11 a.m.

    Capitalism is not evil.
    Communism is not evil.

    The only evil that comes from either system is the human element.

    True communism isnt the conjured up idea's from Karl Marx and the conflicting struggle between the Proletariat amd Bourgeoisie. But instead to have a communal system inwich all participants, gather, manufactor, grow or provide services and all proceeds go to the community for the greater good of all. Even Karl Marx stated true communism could only exist in a totaly free society which doesnt actually exist.

    Capitalism is flawed by human nature in the same way true communism would be flawed, some people are simply lazy, while others work hard to contribute to society. The other flaw of human nature is greed, as we see today once someone is in a position of wealth or power they want more, and eventually will step on the little guy to get gain.

    Another flaw of capitalism and communism is their monitary system. Capitalism's problem is a banking system using a fiat currency with no intrinsic value. For communsim the govt controls the currency and citizens get nothing.

    Knowing the two systems and human nature, which system would you prefer?

  • Sportsfan123 Salt lake, UT
    Jan. 12, 2018 10:32 a.m.

    @marxist

    Since you claim capitalism is so evil and bad and to your quote "we are in big trouble".

    You live in the most properous country the world has ever seen - but since you prefer communism, North Korea has a great booming economy you should consider residing there - I hear their people are starving, living in grass huts and havn't progressed past 3rd world living standards.

    I find it hard to read or believe anything that comes from a marxist when the actual evidence of real life shows all of us that capitalism is a far better system than anything Karl Marx conjured up.

    @garyo

    You continue to use this statement - "our #1 geopolitical foe" that being Russia.

    Who stated it first on a national stage - Mitt Romney
    And what was Oblama's reply? "The 80's called they want their foreign policy back".

    Further more you keep saying that conservatives keep making things up, well then why did Hillary Clinton herself admit that she and the DNC help pay for the fake Trump Dossier? It is fact that Oblama's administration used this fake document as reason to monitor Trump aids and resulted in unmasking american citizens without legal authority.

    When will you accept these facts.

  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    Jan. 11, 2018 4:51 p.m.

    To "Impartial7" so what you are saying is that capitalism isn't evil, but when politicians impose collectivism on top of capitalism it is evil..... So doesn't that mean that collectivism is evil? Yet liberals tell us collectivism is good.

    To "Ultra Bob" ok, tell us what nation has collapsed under Capitalism. I can name quite a few that have collapsed under systems that are either collectivist or else have strong centralized governments that prevent capitalism from functioning.

    To "marxist" how can you learn what capitalism is by reading books written by people who were anti-capitalists? It is like asking somebody who hates ice cream to recommend the best ice cream flavor to you.

  • barfolomew Tooele, UT
    Jan. 11, 2018 1:39 p.m.

    OK, GaryO, what are the "facts" Mueller has turned up showing collusion between the Trump campaign and the Russians?

    "Collusion is evident to all of us who pay attention."

    Yeah, and if you pay any attention at all to news sources other than CNN and CNBC, you'll see that Hillary's campaign payed for the discredited 'Trump dossier' that was not only used as propaganda for them against Trump, but it's coming out now that it was used by the Obama administration to get a FISA warrant to spy on Trump campaign officials.

    And as soon as you explain the innocence of the Uranium One deal, I'll be convinced.

    But you go ahead and believe what you want to believe. This will all be prosecuted soon enough.

  • GaryO Virginia Beach, VA
    Jan. 11, 2018 12:00 p.m.

    Hey barfolomew -

    Re: "So, even though the Mueller probe has turned up no evidence of the Trump campaign colluding with the Russians while there is mounting evidence that the Hillary campaign did indeed collude with the Russians, you're still going with that narrative?"

    Collusion is evident to all of us who pay attention. And Mueller pays attention. You have no basis in fact for concluding that " . . . the Mueller probe has turned up no evidence of the Trump campaign colluding with the Russians . . . "

    And there is NO evidence of the Hillary Clinton campaign colluding with the Russians.

    That's just another "conservative" nonfact. It’s not a fact.

    Facts are facts. But Trump and his deplorable peons Hate facts. The truth almost NEVER backs up their preferred beliefs. That's why they demonize the legitimate media, science, and institutions of higher learning.

    Re: "So, if you hate capitalism . . . " I don' hate capitalism, and I never said I did.

    I say do what works. And we do, pretty much. That's why we have a mixed economy. That is what works.

  • barfolomew Tooele, UT
    Jan. 11, 2018 9:47 a.m.

    @ GaryO

    "Why do you think our nation's "greatest geopolitical foe" helps Republicans win elections here?"

    So, even though the Mueller probe has turned up no evidence of the Trump campaign colluding with the Russians while there is mounting evidence that the Hillary campaign did indeed collude with the Russians, you're still going with that narrative? Seriously, you folks are looking more and more foolish the longer you hold on to this theory.

    And I guess because you read something in the WP that lines up with your ideology, now you take it as gospel? So you believe everything in the WP? Or just this?

    And it seems to me that the far left should be ecstatic with Reagan or Trump in the White House. By your reckoning, they destroy capitalism. Isn't that what the socialist/marxist/progressive/liberal left wants? To install a socialist economy?

    So, if you hate capitalism and Trump is bad for capitalism (and Hillary is good for it, I guess) why wouldn't you vote for Trump and then cheer him on while he brings down capitalism.

    Your logic makes no sense.

  • GaryO Virginia Beach, VA
    Jan. 10, 2018 2:01 p.m.

    Hey Barfolomew -

    Re: "@ GaryO . . . The second and third funniest were when you said . . ."

    Ha!

    Well, I can see that truth is a novelty to you. BUT facts remain facts.

    And the fact is . . . Republican leadership these days harms our nation. Why do you think our nation's "greatest geopolitical foe" helps Republicans win elections here?

    Have you ever noticed how EVERYTHING good goes south when Republicans are in power? They absolutely cannot govern!

    When Republicans win, our enemies celebrate:

    "Senior officials in the Russian government celebrated Donald Trump’s victory over Hillary Clinton as a geopolitical win for Moscow, according to U.S. officials who said that American intelligence agencies intercepted communications in the aftermath of the election in which Russian officials congratulated themselves on the outcome." - Washington Post

  • EmmanuelGoldstein1984 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 10, 2018 1:37 p.m.

    @pragmatistferlife: I recommend The Capitalism Papers by Jerry Mander. Very readable and sensible.
    Also David Harvey's lectures on Youtube.

  • barfolomew Tooele, UT
    Jan. 10, 2018 1:27 p.m.

    @ GaryO

    "Republican policies weaken capitalism. It is progressives who keep capitalism strong."

    hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

    That's the funniest thing I've heard all day! Awesome! Thanks for that!

    The second and third funniest were when you said, "Reagan, [ridiculous comment deleted], weakened capitalism..."

    and

    "Now Trump, [ridiculous comment deleted], is killing regulations designed specifically to keep capitalism healthy."

    Oh, man! Hold on, I have to wipe my eyes.

    And last but not least.....

    "Capitalism demands relatively open borders..."

    Precious. Simply precious. I swear, I almost fell out of my chair.

    Thanks!

  • pragmatistferlife Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 10, 2018 10:45 a.m.

    Tuckett.."Under Trump we are going places."

    You mean under Trump we are continuing to go places. Minimum wages started increasing in 26 states in '15 and '16, and 13 major companies did the same during the same period, so yup..we are "continuing" to go places.

    Black unemployment went from 16.9 in 2013 to 7.8 in Jan. 2017...so yup we are continuing to go places.

    It actually is frustrating to watch you guys tout trends that have been going on for the last 6 years as miracles when last year the same numbers were crushing the economy.

    Fewer jobs created in 2017 all of a sudden became a booming economy. 2.7 % GDP growth is suddenly the launching pad for Make America Great.

    Don't mind the facts but you're the turn from doom and gloom to exuberance with the same numbers is irritating.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 10, 2018 10:24 a.m.

    @pragmatistforlife "Marxist, no one is going to read "Capital", it's virtually impossible to get through for we mortals. How about some suggestions for more readable synopsis, critiques, etc. I know they're out there."

    Yes, you're right about this. I have taken three college level classes on "Capital." That broke the ice for me, making it accessible. Also, you might check out David Harvey's lectures on youtube. Most cannot sit through them, but I find them well done.

  • Thomas Jefferson Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 10, 2018 9:32 a.m.

    Left to itself capitalism will always concentrate wealth to a smaller and smaller pool of people and leave more people behind. It happened in the 20s and it is happening again right now.

    Capitalism is necessary but cannot be left unattended or it will end up in revolution. For capitalism to work it has to have checks and it has to take care of everyone.

  • What in Tucket Provo, UT
    Jan. 10, 2018 9:26 a.m.

    Communism and socialism, socialism being a little more benign that communism and allowing some capitalism have resulted in easily 100 million deaths in the 20th century and is continuing. So they are evil. The secret of American prosperity is capitalism.
    So workers are insecure as when companies do better only the boss gets the money? Many companies are increasing their salaries to workers so they at least do $15 an hour. Many companies are already giving out nice bonuses due to the tax cut. Black unemployment is at its lowest in many a year. The 22,000 regulations imposed by Obama certainly slowed the economy.
    Under Trump we are going places.

  • pragmatistferlife Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 10, 2018 9:16 a.m.

    Evelyn makes the uneducated and erroneous comparison, of capitalism to socialism.

    It's beyond a blatant truth now that first all world economies all run mixed economies.

    As a matter of fact Evelyn the most successful economies in terms of growth, and satisfied societies are the economies of China, and Northern Europe, who both have strong social components to their economies. They've come at it from different perspectives with different result, China has great growth, and Europe with a satisfied society but a strong social content is not contrary to capitalism, so drop the false comparison.

    Marxist, no one is going to read "Capital", it's virtually impossible to get through for we mortals. How about some suggestions for more readable synopsis, critiques, etc. I know they're out there.

  • GaryO Virginia Beach, VA
    Jan. 10, 2018 8:21 a.m.

    Republican policies weaken capitalism. It is progressives who keep capitalism strong.

    The great progressive President, TR, broke up the big, entrenched oligopolies and monopolies, allowing the little guy, the innovator, to bring products and services to market, thereby increasing quality and decreasing consumer prices.

    Reagan, the simpleton he was, weakened capitalism by instituting trickle down economics which rewards big business and penalizes small businesses, thus creating greater wealth disparity and decreasing markets. America’s middle class is the greatest driver of product demand and job growth.

    Now Trump, the simpleton he is, is killing regulations designed specifically to keep capitalism healthy. Trump weakened the CFPB, that enforces anti-fraud laws. Now, healthy capitalism is being replaced by old-fashioned thievery. And the new GOP Tax scam rewards the wealthy at the expense of the middle class, thus decreasing markets even more.

    Trump’s protectionist policies also run contrary to capitalism. Capitalism demands relatively open borders and FREE trade, not trade encumbered by GOP idiocy.

    Republicans call it “exquisite Presidential leadership.”

  • Copybook Headings Draper, UT
    Jan. 10, 2018 5:36 a.m.

    "... we are the most generous nation on earth, responding to every crisis with open hands and hearts, individually and as a government. "

    Couldn't agree more. United States citizens by themselves gave more money to the 2004 Thai/Indian tsunami relief effort than the rest of the world's citizens AND governments combined. That's wasn't socialism or communism at work.

    People attack Capitalism for sole purpose of feeling and appearing authoritative. What better way to pull that off on the cheap than by casting aspersions on something that works so well.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 10, 2018 12:54 a.m.

    To understand capitalism it is necessary to read and understand "Capital" by Karl Marx.

    Marx was not ignorant of the accomplishments and efficiency of capitalism. But Marx asks a question: in capitalism which sees mostly the exchange of equivalents in commerce (as assumed by the classical economists, e.g. Smith, Ricardo) where do profits come from? Marx asserts profits come from capital not compensating hired labor fully for the value it adds. The portion of value added by labor for which it is not compensated is "surplus value."

    So capital is constantly trying to cheapen labor to increase profits. This cheapening of labor is largely achieved with technology, which is why capitalism produces so much of it. And there are many benefits to this technology, some of it even life saving.

    But because the exploitation of labor is necessary for capitalist profits the lot of labor never gets better. Hired labor is today as insecure as it was 100 years ago, even with all of the fancy tech stuff we have. According to Marx surplus value is capitalism's big problem.

    It appeared we had a work around of sorts with the New Deal, but that is fading. We are in big trouble.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 9, 2018 7:03 p.m.

    Everything - in the extreme - is bad. In the extreme, capitalism takes advantage of people. No one wants that. Thats why we have laws. Having lived in Europe and Canada.... there are also very good things around socialized services like medicine and education. But in the extremes - Cuba, Venezuela - bad.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 9, 2018 6:38 p.m.

    Does it really need to be repeated that things that are not "evil" are nonetheless capable of doing great harm if they are free to run wild?

    Is fire evil? No, but I still want a Fire Department.

    Is water evil? No, but I don't want my boat to spring a leak.

    American capitalism is "not evil" because we have over the past two centuries done a pretty good job of creating a society based on the rule of law that provides critically important protections against the excesses of unbridled capitalism.

    We as a nation have gone through a lot, including the creation and support of unions, anti-trust legislation, and worker safety rules, so that we can simultaneously embrace and celebrate capitalism while at the same time limiting its natural tendencies to value money more than citizens.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 9, 2018 6:36 p.m.

    Capitalism is not evil, but evil men can use it to oppress others.

    Communism, Socialism and all the other isms are no more evil that any other, including Capitalism.

    So far in the history of the world, Other than by outside forces, regardless of its economic system a nation fails due to corruption of the economic leaders.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Jan. 9, 2018 6:21 p.m.

    Evelyn, Capitalism is not evil. However, what America and our politicians have turned it into is. Allowing mega -mergers have created monopolies which drives up prices to the consumer. Look at 30 years ago when we had 22 oil companies competing for our business. Now, we have 3. Google "Marriott Hotels" and see all the brands in their group. Same thing with air lines and cell phone providers. Look at Comcast and its companies. The FTC used to look out for the consumer and deny mega-mergers. Now, corporations "donate" to politicians that control those agencies and they sit on their hands while America turns into a country run by oligarchs that just received tax cuts. Big corporation now run America and our politicians. To deny that is not smart.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Jan. 9, 2018 5:41 p.m.

    Capitalism isn't evil, but left unchecked it will cause harm to many and allow only a few to accumulate wealth.
    Unfortunately, what's happening these days is we're again allowing capitalism far more reign than it should have. Perhaps we could fix that.