Are we paying the price for failing to honor and teach morals?

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  • azresident Mesa, AZ
    Jan. 8, 2018 7:04 p.m.

    Well, the kids are learning morals somewhere, although not the morals of generations past.

    Truly, the morals (values) by which many young people of all ages live are a reflection of their belief system. A belief system which is often based on what has been said or done by their peers, what they have seen on tv or in the movies, what they have heard in the music they chose to listen too, from the video games they play, in the books and magazines they read, and, sadly, what some have learned in their homes.

    Anyone who works with children has seen or heard what would have been unacceptable behavior in the past, but which is now all too common and often simply overlooked.

    In my opinion, any change that is going to happen will only happen if the adults in the child's life accept and act upon their responsibility to be an adult and set an example--whether it is the parent, the teacher, a neighbor, a church leader, a scout leader, a coach, the mailman, a cashier at any fast food, convenience store, or shop at the mall.

  • Sportsfan123 Salt lake, UT
    Jan. 8, 2018 10:50 a.m.

    It is by no coinsidence that going by history and seeing how many countries have evolved and progressed in advanced technologies and industry that have become 1st world countries who's citizens enjoy a great way of life in comparison to 2nd and 3rd world countries who's people and citizenry suffer much more in comparison have one thing in common - religion.

    And that religion is predominantly judeo-christian. Look at Europe and look at the westernised countries including the united states, and what are the differences between them and the middle east and africa.
    Granted there are some organised churches that can attribute to some of the worst examples of human atrocities thru genocide and religious extermination, and some have been the receivers of those atrocities. That beeing said there are no excuses for destroying human life in the name of a religion but once mainstream civilization traded in their sword and barbarism for peace and civilization the judeo-christian countries that maintains those values taught and put into practice these are the countries that we see prospering today. The secular views being taught by the left will take us back to the afore mentioned barbarism.

  • bernand0 Spokane, WA
    Jan. 7, 2018 11:07 p.m.

    I am tired if the moral arguments. I am a teacher. I see kids doing very moral things all the time. The days of boys will be boys is gone. The things that were considered the norm are now considered to be completely socially inappropriate.
    Our kids are quite moral, most parents are teaching kids to be respectful. I don't think that saying sir and madam, and using Mr and Mrs to all adults is a sign of a lack of respect.

    Our kids suffer from a short attention span and a failure of adults to teach/respond to kids needs in a way that they can relate to. They don't want a lecture, they someone to guide themselves to the right solution. Give them space, and carefully guide them to be socially responsible people. This comes from listening and presenting them with the right questions and responding at the right time.

  • Misty Mountain Kent, WA
    Jan. 7, 2018 10:53 p.m.

    J Thompson:

    "Where did moral laws come from? Those who believe Christ know that Adam and Eve were the first people. They know that Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the Garden. ... Those who believe Christ know that there was a flood that destroyed all except for eight people. "

    How did you get from Point A to Point X?

    As far as I know, there is no record of Jesus ever talking about Adam and Eve, the Garden, or about any major flood. Do you know something that I don't know?

    "Those moral laws still apply. Those laws are still important. Those laws must be followed by all. "

    Let's start with "Judge not".

  • Misty Mountain Kent, WA
    Jan. 7, 2018 9:04 p.m.

    J. Thompson :

    "Critics of Christ’s moral laws dismiss him as their judge and their savior."

    I'm not sure where you got that idea from. There are billions of people on the earth who do not believe that Christ was divine, let alone that he is their judge or savior. That has nothing to do with their opinion of what you are calling "Christ's moral laws".

    You have used this phrase numerous times in earlier postings, and most of the time you seem to be referring to sexual behavior. But Christ said very little about sex. He did say a lot about treating other people with respect, giving aid to those who were hurt or poor, and not judging.

    "Others point to themselves as the giver of moral laws. They think that because they have written laws which defy Diety that Diety will bow to them and acknowledge their wisdom. That arrogance proves the point of the editorial."

    They do? Your source, please? If someone doesn't believe that a deity exists, then they don't have any such ideas.

    When you refer to others' arrogance I am reminded that Jesus preached humility. I think that's an very desirable virtue.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Jan. 7, 2018 11:19 a.m.

    Critics of Christ’s moral laws dismiss him as their judge and their savior. Some point to Islamic nations as the giver of moral laws. Others point to themselves as the giver of moral laws. They think that because they have written laws which defy Diety that Diety will bow to them and acknowledge their wisdom. That arrogance proves the point of the editorial. Morality is not being taught in the homes of many nor in our schools nor by society. Many in society openly and actively elevate themselves above God.

    Joshua said: Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. I choose to serve God and to allow His Son to instruct me. You are free to make your own choice.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 7, 2018 10:54 a.m.

    @J Thompson
    "We have to ask ourselves if we are agents free to do whatever we want or whether we are sons and daughters of Diety who did not put us here without direction but who put us here with divine laws to guide us.

    Without guidance, man is nothing and man's laws are nothing."

    Sounds like an argument one would use to justify Sharia law.

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Jan. 7, 2018 8:37 a.m.

    Thompson / Richards asks,

    "If we have a law that says a family can consist of two mommies or two daddies, does that law protect children in that home?"

    The answer is obvious.

    What a family can legally consist of has nothing to do with protection of children. Thompson / Richards, you are clearly aware that many millions of children have been abused when they were in a home with one mommy and one daddy. You should also be aware that there is zero, repeat zero evidence that children raised by a same sex couple are in some sort of "danger" that does not exist in homes headed by a heterosexual couple.

    "If Christ gives us a law that says that marriage is only between a man and a woman, can man change that law?"

    They certainly can. And they did. The law is, or was different in Saudi Arabia. And in Mali. And in Chad. And in Yemen. And in Utah.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 6, 2018 8:39 p.m.

    I think it is rather sad that some feel they need Got to tell them that they need to be decent to other people, that need to be explicitly told by a deity that they need to care for the poor, that doing something that would harm someone is not something they themselves can morally decide, but need to have that dictated to them.

    I believe in God, and God's laws. But the presumption that without God telling me so, I would wouldn't know murdering, steeling, or abusing others is wrong - just seems odd to me. I would hope there is some part of us that has a conscience...... that we don't need to have the threat of God's vengeance .... to simply be nice and decent.

    I have seldom if ever had to threaten my kids. I've given then choices. Either this, or that. But it has been up to them to make the right choice. And the majority of the time my kids have made the right decision - not because they are afraid of me - but because they don't want to disappoint. I don't want my kids to be obedient to Gods laws because they fear Heavenly Father, but because they want to do the right thing, for the right reason. I don't need God to tell me lying is wrong and hurtful.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Jan. 6, 2018 5:00 p.m.

    @jrthomas
    So as I asked before which of the 217 denominations of Christianity do we use to teach our kids morals? Which one of the hundreds of English translation of the Bible do we use? Which interpretation do we go with the official churches, your, open minded Mormons? At the end the day there is nothing Devine about Christian theoes on morality.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Jan. 6, 2018 12:47 p.m.

    It looks to me like the ultimate question about morals and morality is whether man has the right to make his own laws that contradict laws given us by Christ, whether known as Christ or Jehovah or The Redeemer or I Am or Savior or The Word or any of the other 50 names mentioned in scripture.

    If we are free to make our own moral laws, are we also free from any consequences that arise because those laws hurt people? If we have a law that saws you can steal if you are hungry but not if you simply covet something, does that law protect the owner of the stolen bread? If we have a law that says you can drive at any speed through a school zone, does that law protect children? If we have a law that says a family can consist of two mommies or two daddies, does that law protect children in that home? If Christ gives us a law that says that marriage is only between a man and a woman, can man change that law?

    We have to ask ourselves if we are agents free to do whatever we want or whether we are sons and daughters of Diety who did not put us here without direction but who put us here with divine laws to guide us.

    Without guidance, man is nothing and man's laws are nothing.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Jan. 6, 2018 12:05 p.m.

    Are we paying the price for failing to honor and teach morals?
    We elected 'Access Hollywood'. What do you think?
    As an aside, it was accomplished in no small part by those that are not 'regrettably' avoiding organised religion.

  • Dmorgan Herriman, UT
    Jan. 6, 2018 9:41 a.m.

    I would recommend reading "The Moral Landscape" by Sam Harris. It would help the author of this op-ed and many of the commenters to understand the difference between objective morality, and divine decree morality. It would clear up the misunderstandings regarding the anthropological roots of our "moral" behavior and the societal purpose behind its formation. It also touches on the science of what constitutes moral behavior. It may change the perspective of both the religious and non-religious alike.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Jan. 6, 2018 9:40 a.m.

    Mr. Bell

    The main difference between today and years past is publicity. When I was young, there existed role models. Bill Cosby--father figure, Jerry Sandusky--coach, John Geoghan, Bernard Law--religious figures. But today we know that outward appearance means little--it may just be a facade covering up criminal behavior against innocent people. Even the political party that considers itself the "party of high moral values" elected and continues to support, a POTUS who bragged about assaulting women, tells blatant lies (easily disproven by facts,
    stiffed people who did work for him, etc etc etc

    Growing up in Utah many years ago, I don't remember being taught in school, specifically moral values. Nor did we say prayer in public schools. But I had good role models in the adults--primarily my parents, my friends, and teachers--around me. On the other hand, the ward my spouse attended, the kids his age bragged about breaking into cars during church and stealing stuff (and the bishop got excommunicated for adultery with one of the kid's mom).

    In sum, little is new under the sun. Largely we are just more informed.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Jan. 6, 2018 9:38 a.m.

    Where did moral laws come from? Those who believe Christ know that Adam and Eve were the first people. They know that Adam and Eve walked and talked with God in the Garden. They know that Adan and Eve were taught correct principles from the author of those principles. Those who believe Christ know that there was a flood that destroyed all except for eight people. Those who believe Christ know that Ham, one of Noah's sons was denied religious authority, but Ham still taught his children the moral and religious teachings given to Adam and Eve and to Noah. From Ham and his wife came Egypt. After many generations, Egypt turned to multiple gods. That was not Noah's fault. That was not Ham's fault. Those people chose to serve other gods and practice other forms of morality.

    So, we come to today when we are 6,000 years removed from Adam and 4,500 years removed from Noah and 3,500 years removed from Moses. We are 2,000 years removed from Christ's time. People today, like old Egypt, have distorted and abandoned moral laws.

    Those moral laws still apply. Those laws are still important. Those laws must be followed by all. Those must be taught to all people.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Jan. 6, 2018 7:56 a.m.

    @Mick
    "My favorite it also leftist who are clearly anti religion on this board quote what Jesus said. Or what the Bible says. Read the entire book. Dont just pick out phrases to use against your enemy. Thats not what Jesus taught."

    I assume this is directed at me. I guess you haven't been here long enough. I've read the bible, cover to cover, half a dozen times. I've read the BoM twice (Mark Twain was right), the Book of Abraham and the Great Pearl of Price. I was a dyed in the wool Republican (and church goer)- voted for GW Bush-twice. Until I started putting 2 and 2 together and realized that neither the GOP nor a great many christian leaders and followers practiced what they preached. But that doesn't stop them from using scripture, when it fits their agenda. The hypocrisy was eye opening. I hope that someday you will be objective enough to come to the same understanding.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    Jan. 6, 2018 7:32 a.m.

    "The Code of Hammurabi is 300 years older than the Ten Commandments and covers many of the same points: penalties against murder, stealing, injury, etc.

    The difference between Hammurabi and Moses is the former was purely civil law while the latter mixed civil law with religious rules. "

    Hammurabi prefaced his law with the statement that he had been called by Anu and Bel (Sumerian Gods) and that he was god-fearing. So his laws had the underpinning of religion to them. They were secular but they had the authority of religion.

    Without the religious element, morality is watered down and becomes manners. We can say that this is a code of conduct that we have collectively decided should be applied. But then if someone believes otherwise, and we punish that person then it is the majority taking away the right of an individual. We are forcing that person to adhere to our dogma.

    The idea that morality was developed as a way to keep societies together has a weakness. Giving to the poor is moral. But doing it for appearances is immoral. The motive should not matter. It is the action that benefits society. The motive only matters if we are accoutbale to a god.

  • Bob K Davis, CA
    Jan. 6, 2018 1:21 a.m.

    One of the very worst person I know had an amoral drunken father, so ended up living with his mother, a super evangelical. She never taught him morals, just kept telling him to turn to Jesus. Unfortunately, she overlooked that she had failed to make him believe in Jesus, so he turned only to himself.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 5, 2018 10:33 p.m.

    "We didn't use to need monthly lessons on morality/ethics from our employers. Most working adults had long since learned those things. Whether unwed births, or obscene exec pay as workers are underpaid, we suffer from lack of religious instruction."

    @NoNamesAccepted - from my experience there are two types of people out there. There are those who do the right thing because of fear of repercussions if they didn't. The other type do the right thing - simply because it is the right thing. I wish I could say there was a nice corollary to ones faith and which measure drives the person - but there seems to be little.

    Some times doing the right thing is just the logical thing, because you know in the balance of life, how you treat others directly impacts how you will be treated. Call it Karma. Call it what ever. Call it justice. But many don't need to have God tell them honesty is the right thing to do. They can simply deduce that if you lie to others, they will not trust you.

    In my company, the training is to preserve the companies reputation, and to avoid litigation. And unfortunately while it shouldn't need to be taught, we fire enough people to prove it still does.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 9:18 p.m.

    So for the sake of argument let’s go with the idea that using religion to teach our kid morals is a good idea which religions teachings shall we use Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism? If we choose Christianity which version of the Bible should we use King James, Holaman Christian Standard, New Century, Mew Masonic? Which religions interpretation do we go with Catholicism, Protestant, LDS Church, Evangelicals, Baptist? If we go with the LDS Church do with their official interpretation, Mike Richards interpretation, Open Minded Mormons interpretation? The point being there is nothing about religions that provides an objective morality independent of human thought.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 7:55 p.m.

    I wonder how I haven’t ended up in jail without relegious influence.

    What has kept me from stealing, cheating, lying, adulterating, or murdering?

    It hasn’t been a prophet, priest or a minister.

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Jan. 5, 2018 4:59 p.m.

    @Mike Richards wrote,

    "[Jesus] is the author of morals to all who have ever lived. (2) Prophets have warned harshly all societies that reject Christ's morals."

    We all agree that Jesus was not in favor of adultery. But unless you know something I don't, that was as close as Jesus came to talking about sex, and the extent of Jesus' comments on sex. Paul had lots to say about women and sex--but that's Paul; that's not Jesus. Jesus did say a lot about sins of pride and greed and arrogance, and lack of compassion, however--which sounds like those are the morals that mattered to him.

    I'm curious as to what you think Christ would say about a government that denied the expansion of Medicaid coverage to the poor.

    I am struck by your statement about not letting the end justify the means. There were several articles about the Alabama senate election and I don't recall you criticizing the readers who said that they believed that Moore had, indeed, preyed on teenage girls but that he should be elected anyway, so as to keep the majority Republican.

  • Catwoman Cedar City, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 3:41 p.m.

    Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you are told.

    Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 5, 2018 1:59 p.m.

    Even a very casual study of scripture should show two things: (1) Christ is forgiving. He forgave the woman caught in adultery. He forgave Saul who became Paul. He forgives you and me. He is the author of morals to all who have ever lived. (2) Prophets have warned harshly all societies that reject Christ's morals.

    What can we learn from that? We learn that accepting Christ's moral laws is not only possible but required. We learn that Christ is patient to the penitent. We learn that he is NOT tolerant of people or societies who reject the eternal truths that he has given us by his own mouth and through the mouths of his prophets.

    Ancient Israel saw many miracles and yet they rejected eternal morals by worshipping a golden calf. Many among us do the same by worshipping rock-stars, be they entertainers or hucksters in government. Many teach their children that the end justifies the means.

    God requires us to teach goodness and truth and righteousness. The means to an end matters. Victory at any cost is not victory. Christ warned us about gaining the entire world but loosing our souls.

    Everyone should be an example of proper morals. Everyone.

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Jan. 5, 2018 1:28 p.m.

    @patriot wrote,

    "Let's qualify "we" here. Are "we" teaching morals."

    First, @patriot, it would be good if we agreed on what exactly "morals" meant. We can agree that Paul disapproved of homosexual sex, along with a whole lot of restrictions on women, but there's zero evidence that Jesus had similar views.

    Jesus did, however, have a whole lot to say about pride and self-righteousness and having compassion for the poor.

  • The Educator South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 1:10 p.m.

    "@1covey
    "Isn't it noteworthy that of public schools, private and/or religious-sponsored schools, public schools are at the bottom of the list of good schools ? "

    Actually, in Utah, the worst performing schools are the religious charter schools.

    I can't post links but you can easily look up the Utah school grades! Google "Utah School Grades." We have the data from the past 3 years to show the failing schools.

    The top performing schools are actually the public schools.

    Facts matter! Even the inconvenient ones.

    Get Educated

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 12:47 p.m.

    Let's qualify "we" here. Are "we" teaching morals. For the vast majority of society the answer is obviously no. Morals are mocked and ignored and in fact Hollywood and the music industry have gone so far as to require immorality if they want to produce any movie or song. American society especially is rotting on the vine and is especially hostile to Christianity which teaches moral cleanliness as taught by The Savior. Moral commandments haven't changed in over 2000 years yet some even within some Christian churches want to toss them out and adopt the worlds pop culture views. Christian morality has as it's core the 10 commandments (thou shalt not commit adultery) but adds the teachings of the New Testament including the sins of fonication and homosexuality (same sex relations). The Catholic Church, most evangelical churches and of course the LDS church all agree on moral sins and add to the New Testament list convenience abortion. These sins destroy a person and a society and from Sodom and Gomorrah to present day the sins remain the same and so do the consequences. Eternal principles never change and opinion carries no weight at the end of the day (yours or mine).

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 12:37 p.m.

    @Marxist:

    "The rot in the United States is under-girded by a decaying capitalist system, like with Germany in the 20's and 30's, "

    Germany's economic problems in the 20s and 30s were caused almost entirely by the impossible retribution payments imposed by the victors at the end of WWI. These were exacerbated by the worldwide Great Depression.

    "That population is threatened and stretched to the limit, and has sought an immoral fascist savior like Germany. Like with Germany this is not going to end well."

    Germany embraced an atheistic socialist who seized control of industry and plunged the nation into world war. As bad a monster as Hitler was, Stalin made him look like a rank amateur. The atrocities committed by atheistic, Marxist communist regimes overwhelm every other category of crime, sin, and inhumanity in our history.

    Capitalism is imperfect. It needs the moderating influence of a Christian society with New Testament morals and mores.

    But Marxism drags humanity into the very bowels of Dante's worst nightmares. Marxism stifles humanity and so is always, ultimately, imposed by vicious, ruthless, merciless force.

    No sane man embraces such depravity.

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 12:36 p.m.

    A definition of "moral":
    mor·al pronounced [mÔrl]
    ADJECTIVE
    concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character:
    "the moral dimensions of medical intervention" · [more]
    synonyms: virtuous · good · righteous · upright · upstanding · [more]
    holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct:
    "he prides himself on being a highly moral and ethical person"
    NOUN
    a lesson, especially one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience:
    "the moral of this story was that one must see the beauty in what one has"
    synonyms: lesson · message · meaning · significance · signification · [more]

    a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do
    --------------

    "morality" deals with honorable interaction of people in society. Some people attribute it to sexual conduct, but the large definition isn't limited to that area. When discussing the issue of morality in general society, the larger definition is the one to be used.

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Jan. 5, 2018 12:36 p.m.

    @Cactus Pete, tabuno asked you if Trump seemed to be a person that would qualify to teach our children moral standards. The answer is either yes or no. Instead of answering it, you tried to bring Bill Clinton (and yes, he is a sleaze) into it.

    Is there a reason you won't just answer the question?

    I am an ardent liberal and proud of it. I have no tolerance for the idea that it's OK to vote for a groper, no matter what the party. Voting for an admitted abuser because he belongs to your political party is no more moral than a woman staying with a man who beats her because he brings home a weekly paycheck.

  • EscherEnigma Ridgecrest, CA
    Jan. 5, 2018 12:34 p.m.

    @Nichol Draper
    You're basically committing the logical fallacy of affirming the consequent. As an example:

    "If you own Fort Knox, you are rich.
    Bill Gates is rich.
    Bill gates must own Fort Knox."

    As you can see, the problem is that you make an assumption that the opening premise ("if you own Fort Knox") is the *only* path to the opening conclusion ("you are rich").

    In your case, it's "If you believe in the ten commandments, you refuse to murder, cheat, steal or lie. This atheist refuses to murder, cheat, steal or lie. This atheist must believe in the ten commandments".

    In short? I have no believe in any god (Not G-d, God, Allah, Zeus, Odin, Ra, Anansi, Coyote, the Morrigan or any other). I believe people shouldn't lie, steal, cheat or murder for reasons that are entirely divorced from religious beliefs. This does not mean that I secretly *do* believe, just that there are multiple routes to the same conclusion (that lying, cheating, stealing and murdering are wrong).

  • EscherEnigma Ridgecrest, CA
    Jan. 5, 2018 12:21 p.m.

    I love articles like this. We're so immoral now! We're terrible, terrible people! We rape and steal and murder! We're just awful these days!

    Sure. But... when *weren't* we? Fact is all the abuses you hear about these days that are so awful aren't new. They've always been going on. It's just that people are speaking up about it more. And it's not like a hundred years ago people were better, they just didn't talk about it, or considered things we think are abhorrent (like beating and raping your wife) to be normal (seriously, for a long time the crime of "rape" had an exception for "a husband with his wife" in most codes of laws).

    This rosy-glasses view that things used to be better is naÏve nostalgia and nothing more.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 11:49 a.m.

    @1covey
    "Isn't it noteworthy that of public schools, private and/or religious-sponsored schools, public schools are at the bottom of the list of good schools ? "

    No. Because the others get to handpick their students. The public schools are stuck with the ones who don't care and low achievers (in lower grades) that wouldn't be accepted by some private schools.

  • cthulhu_fhtagn Seattle, WA
    Jan. 5, 2018 11:47 a.m.

    @Nichol Draper

    Secular prohibitions against murder and theft predate the "ten commandments" by a long shot. Just google ancient legal codes.

  • 1covey Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 11:27 a.m.

    Isn't it noteworthy that of public schools, private and/or religious-sponsored schools, public schools are at the bottom of the list of good schools ? Of course, every religion has a broad spectrum of individual adherence to the beliefs of that particular religion. It's ridiculous for poll takers to ask various members of a denomination what they believe on this subject or that as a valid indication of what that denomination really believes. In religion, morals can mostly be separated from theological dogma. Or can they ? The 'golden rule' is expressed in some form by most religions. Atheism has, to my knowledge, only one tenet: no God. Moses and Hammurabi gave rules to the societies over whom they lead. Principles enumerated in the "Ten Commandments" did not originate with Moses. If any were 'new' to the Israelites, it was because they had forgotten them over the years in Egypt. There are many reasons for a decline in morals. It is instructive to note Confucius' time, his teachings were subverted by a troupe of dancing girls sent from a neighboring province to entertain the people. Certainly, deep religious faith and strong families strengthen moral behavior.

  • JoeCapitalist2 Orem, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 11:06 a.m.

    Impartial7: "... but some church's think that an twice divorced man, whom admitted adultery, is a good moral President."

    It didn't take long for several of the committed leftists (likely the same person logging in under lots of screen names) to insinuate that everyone who voted for Trump personally approves of every one of his character flaws.

    It can't possibly be true that we voted for him because the other candidate was even worse. After all, Hillary was the most qualified, honest, and selfless candidate we have ever had, right?

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 10:39 a.m.

    @UtahBlueDevil:

    "every month there is another morals, ethics, or governance course provided. To presume we need religion to teach that you need to be honest is absurd. ... I don't need my faith to tell act morally. Its bigger than that."

    Actually, quite the opposite. In the absence of an eternal (ie religious) view of life, morality gets rather small. Do what is right because...why exactly? Because you should? Because it is nice to others? Because society works better if you do? Because their are legal consequences if you don't...and if you get caught...and if you are not rich or popular enough to escape those consequences?

    Religion brings a unique angle to the morality discussion: You can't hide from God/Karma. There absolutely will be consequences no matter your station in this life. As Heinlein observed, “Never appeal to a man's better nature. He may not have one. Invoking his self-interest gives you more leverage."

    We didn't use to need monthly lessons on morality/ethics from our employers. Most working adults had long since learned those things. Whether unwed births, or obscene exec pay as workers are underpaid, we suffer from lack of religious instruction.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 10:07 a.m.

    The rot in the United States is under-girded by a decaying capitalist system, like with Germany in the 20's and 30's, which is concentrating and centralizing wealth, leaving too little for the mass of the population. That population is threatened and stretched to the limit, and has sought an immoral fascist savior like Germany. Like with Germany this is not going to end well. The temporality to change course is very short.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 10:07 a.m.

    The rot in the United States is under-girded by a decaying capitalist system, like with Germany in the 20's and 30's, which is concentrating and centralizing wealth, leaving too little for the mass of the population. That population is threatened and stretched to the limit, and has sought an immoral fascist savior like Germany. Like with Germany this is not going to end well. The temporality to change course is very short.

  • Hubble65 Sandy, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 9:45 a.m.

    One problem with morality is it is not taught in the home. Accountability is not given to the child or to the teen or to the adult, but is placed on society as a failure. Growing up one of the key things I knew was if I made a mistake, if I made an error, there would be understanding and compassion mixed with consequence. I was given freedom appropriate to my developmental stage by my parents to make choices, and taught the consequences of those choices. Thus I believe, I grew up understanding that morality began with me, with my choices and how they impacted those around me and myself. Morality is for the home I believe, and I think if there is a change in current view of morality, it is because there has been a change in how it is approached at home. How I was raided in the 1970's as a child is not how parents today are raising their children in terms of morality. For right or wrong it changes, modifies and adapts to the generation of parents raising that next generation. Look to the home, understand why there are changes, and realize, morality is a personalized thing. We just need people to be more compassionate, understanding, accountable, forgiving and kind.

  • Thomas Jefferson Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 9:26 a.m.

    Religion is an immoral lie, mostly to oneself.

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 8:05 a.m.

    Religions that teach a permissive God who is a pushover do not help. Religions that teach responsibility, accountability , repentance and old fashioned morality and decency are however helpful. These things can be taught effectively, with or without any specific religion, at home also.

    There are good things we can learn from the president of the United States. I don't think he has time to cheat on his wife, not sure he ever did cheat on Melania, and I am sure he is doing better than Bill Clinton did in and out of the White House on that score. I think he also did better than a number of other presidents in that - and may it so continue. He does not take cocaine either and is strong in avoiding drugs, as well as being industrious, and diligent in keeping promises despite many obstructions.

    I liked the post about following at least three fundamentals of the ten commandments ( I agree more, or all, would be better) but would respectfully add that the commandment is not "thou shalt not lie" exactly it is "thou shalt not bear false witness". There is a lot of calumny about; so many seem so willing to believe every accusation against those they hate openly or secretly?

  • GingerMarshall Brooklyn, OH
    Jan. 5, 2018 8:04 a.m.

    @Nichol Draper: "I have to ask them do they reject all the religious commandments?"

    The Code of Hammurabi is 300 years older than the Ten Commandments and covers many of the same points: penalties against murder, stealing, injury, etc.

    The difference between Hammurabi and Moses is the former was purely civil law while the latter mixed civil law with religious rules.

    Other systems and cultures had similar civil rules because it makes sense - if members of a tribe, clan, village or city can harm or kill without penalty then order is lost. Rules and laws let people live together successfully. Believing that does not require belief in any god.

    Manners and kindness are the oil that lubricates the mechanism of civil society. "Do unto others as you would have others do to you" is a paradigm found in all major belief systems and philosophies because it encourages society to function. It is not especially biblical and is in no way unique to Christianity. Like Hammurabi it predates Jesus by centuries and he was likely quoting a known social meme when he said it.

    Morality does not need religion and religion is often void of morality.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 5, 2018 7:45 a.m.

    Before deciding who should teach morality, shouldn't we first agree on the definition of "morality"? Shouldn't we first agree that there are unbending rules that should govern how we interact? Shouldn't we first agree that public opinion is not the forum that decides what is moral and what is not?

    Morality is not elastic. It is the rules that protect all of us from predators within a society. When all live the law of chastity, meaning sexual relations only within marriage and only with our spouse, then there would be no out of wedlock births. There would be no excuse for almost all abortions. There would be no national headlines that Bill Clinton had an affair with an intern or that Harvey had preyed on those seeking fame and fortune in Hollywood, or that Matt Lauer had a door locking button on his desk or that Kevin Spacey had violated his guests at his parties.

    Morality is so much more than just proper sexual conduct. It encompasses all parts of life. The charge to teach morality was given by Deity to the Fathers and Mothers of each family. Deity will hold us responsible if we fail to instruct our families. Schools and Church and society may assist.

  • Freiheit Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 6:56 a.m.

    cont.
    Today, thanks to the media and internet, we are more aware of our shortcomings. This should be a good thing, leading us to make corrections. There are millions of us who don't make the news. Millions of fine, upstanding fellow citizens who try hard to do what they feel is right. We may differ on how succesfull those efforts are, but in trying to improve things it is no help at all to compare ourselves to a glorious, righteous past that never existed. Reality, past and present should be our guide. Though there have been misteps, I like to believe most of us want the right things.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 5, 2018 6:49 a.m.

    "Because of cultural and judicial hostility to schools teaching anything that smacked of religion, our education system retreated from much of moral instruction. Moreover, the irresistible drumbeat for schools to teach and students to master and be tested on core subjects like reading and math has greatly reduced teachers’ opportunities to teach fundamental ethics."

    This is a load of baloney. It's just talking points trying to support a false narrative. I currently work for one of the worlds largest corporations. It is a place where Religion is not spoken. And yet every month there is another morals, ethics, or governance course provided. To presume we need religion to teach that you need to be honest is absurd.

    And likewise in schools. Teachers absolutely teach kids they need to not cheat - be honest. They teach their students they need to treat each other with respect.... they do so every day. No, they may not use scripture to do it, but to say morals and ethics are not taught in schools anymore... that is a statement that doesn't support the idea of honesty either.

    I am a faithful Mormon, but I don't need my faith to tell act morally. Its bigger than that.

  • Freiheit Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 6:48 a.m.

    This article is a fine example of "golden age" thinking. Once upon a time, safely in the past, this was a moral and righteous country, with honest, upright people and leaders where everyone went to church and learned right from wrong; sadly that is no longer the case. The facts point in a different direction. There have always been rogues in our gallery. Washington was a fine and dedicated leader. Then there was Benedict Arnold, who became our shorthand for venal traitor. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, fine gentlemen all, and slaveholders as well. Ford, Carnegie, Edison, Vanderbilt, giants of business, but unable to see the real suffering among their employees. Religion? The mobs that forced my ancestors to flee west were led by the religious leaders in the town. This continues today with clergy sex abuse. Do we pretend this only started recently? Other posters have pointed out the political situation. What they didn't point out is that the same can be said of a long line of presidents stretching back to Jefferson.
    continued

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 6:44 a.m.

    3 people are in everyone, parent, adult and a child. To be a parent ya have to be apparent.

  • unrepentant progressive Bozeman, MT
    Jan. 5, 2018 5:36 a.m.

    Based on everything I have ever seen or heard, most teachers spend inordinate amounts of time with their students attempting to get these young people to do the "right thing". Honesty, hard work, sharing, kindness, and discipline are among some of the basic lessons our hard working teachers "preach" to their classes.

    Mr Bell would have teachers also instruct their charges in religion, as he seems to think religion is the only vessel of moral and ethical lessons available to children. All but the most ardently evangelical of us know this is false. It is a naked attempt to proselytize in public schools.

    Mr Bell ought to examine the so-called leaders of our local, state and nation (& not just the political ones, but the religious and corporate types) and call these powerful people to task for not modeling ethical and moral behavior. As they say, the fish stinks from the head.

    Mr Bell, it is not the schools. It is the stench amongst our various leaders and institutions that demean the nation's morality and ethics.

  • Mick , 00
    Jan. 5, 2018 5:29 a.m.

    I am tired of leftists shouting “moral hypocrisy “ when it comes to their vote and Trump. As if they hold the moral high ground for supporting Hillary Clinton. The fact is there weren’t any good options. The fact is that Trump did what many good moral people wanted him to do by putting Gorsuch on the Supreme Court. And that was the only reason he got my vote. Fear of another extremist like Sotomayor.

    How did people vote for and continue to vote for Bill Clinton? Ted Kennedy? How did Hillary, a close friend and donor recipient of Harvey Weinstein and supporter of her immoral husband Bill, get so many votes from the left?

    My favorite it also leftist who are clearly anti religion on this board quote what Jesus said. Or what the Bible says. Read the entire book. Don’t just pick out phrases to use against your enemy. That’s not what Jesus taught.

  • Nichol Draper West Jordan, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 5:20 a.m.

    Whenever I meet a person that claims to be an atheist I have to ask them do they reject all the religious commandments? If you are not religious then thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal and thou shalt not lie are not commandments? They then claim that those are not religious, but I have to say, the ten commandments are religious, the belief in God, God of course is the metaphor for a belief in love for human kind. They tell me that is not God, I have to say that an atheist cannot define God as God is defined by believers. So I ask them again, are you really against religion? Everyone's religion? Because when you tell me you are against religion I want you to believe in at least of three of the ten commandments. And the first commandment of the full ten listed in the bible is really a requirement to not have exceptions. Now are you really not religious? Lastly my challenge is that people will say they are religious, but break commandments, if you break the thou shalt not lie, you can claim to be religious and not be. So my challenge is to figure out who really is religious by my definition.

  • Cactus Pete Centerville, UT
    Jan. 5, 2018 4:46 a.m.

    tabuno - Clearfield, UT
    You ask "Does President Trump as the leader and role-model for our Country seem to be a person that would qualify to teach our children moral standards?"

    Did you ask the same question when President Clinton was having an affair with a 22-year-old White House intern? Their sexual relationship took place between 1995 to 1997.

    It is a double standard to hold Democrats and Republicans to different levels of expectation.

  • geekusprimus Little Elm, TX
    Jan. 5, 2018 3:20 a.m.

    The reason our society has developed such a backwards approach to morality is because of the double standards we enforce. The news lately has been filled with countless politicians, entertainers, and high-profile executives being accused of sexual assault and harassment, and people say, "Wow! That's terrible! I can't believe someone would ever do that." Immediately following this understandable expression of outrage, however, they go turn on the local radio and pound their eardrums with all sorts of innuendo, sexual objectification, and glorification of immorality followed by movie with vulgar humor, depictions of sexual violence, and unrealistic expectations of human relationships.
    We teach our children in our schools that they should just "say no to drugs" and never drive under the influence, but we support celebrities and athletes that openly brag about these activities while taking their thirteenth trip to rehab while we vote for legislation that makes it easier to obtain these kinds of substances.
    We talk about the importance of honesty and transparency and then turn around and elect liars who operate in the dark.
    Is it any wonder we have a morality issue in this country?

  • JimDabakis slc, UT
    Jan. 4, 2018 11:01 p.m.

    There is the issue of the morality of the Governor and Legislature not accepting Utah's share of full Medicaid Expansion. Shamefully denying hundreds of millions of dollars a year to help over a hundred thousand poor Utahns get healthcare. 'When ye have done it unto the least of these...'

  • Kralon HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    Jan. 4, 2018 10:22 p.m.

    @EDM

    "Secular, public education is the best hope most of our kids have."

    No, it is absolutely not! Moral instruction begins in the home and when people have a lot of social connections that support ethical, moral behavior; then, our children will have their best hope.

    Children are increasingly being raised without moral, ethical instruction in the home and family. Many feel no social shame in unethical, immoral behavior because social connections are fewer and less strong every year. This equates to more immoral actions, less compassion and guilt when acting immoral or unethical. This is the major reason online social networks have realized they are a part of the problem, rather than the solution. At least many of them, such as Facebook, have made major commitments to correct their poor influence on the social fabric of society.

  • Fullypresent Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 4, 2018 9:59 p.m.

    Morals and religion can be far apart. Religious people do not always equate with moral people as evidenced by some of the things politicians do and the level of affinity fraud in our state. The focus should be on defining what a decent human being is and teaching kids how to be one. They need to be taught core values like integrity, responsibility, ethics, fairness, kindness, and other values that when implemented can make the world a better place regardless of religion or lack there of.

  • tabuno Clearfield, UT
    Jan. 4, 2018 8:32 p.m.

    Does President Trump as the leader and role-model for our Country seem to be a person that would qualify to teach our children moral standards? Our schools can offer moral and ethical guidance without necessarily running afoul of the religious establishment clause.

  • FT salt lake city, UT
    Jan. 4, 2018 8:07 p.m.

    How else can you explainTrump sitting in the WH?

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    Jan. 4, 2018 8:03 p.m.

    “Churches have been a critical source of preserving and passing on high principles and conducting effective education in morality and ethical behavior.”

    ....and too often, just the opposite. There is an old adage that goes like this: Good people do good things, and bad people do bad things, but for good people to do bad things - that takes religion.

    Perhaps religion can promote morality, but it is far from the source of morality. Moreover, religion is the cause of enormous human suffering each and every day.

    Secular, public education is the best hope most of our kids have.

  • There You Go Again St George, UT
    Jan. 4, 2018 7:55 p.m.

    Mr. Bell...

    Thank you for your accurate indictment including the morally, ethically, integrity challenged behavior of the Republican currently occupying the WH.

    On 10/8/16, the DN issued a similar indictment.

    Since the 10/8/16 piece, the DN has made a decision to champion this individual.

    Sad.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Jan. 4, 2018 7:54 p.m.

    Despite repeated articles attempting to conflate religion with morality the two are far from synonymous. Modern religion has lost any claims to being the arbitrators of morality.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Jan. 4, 2018 7:50 p.m.

    "... have long demeaned and undermined marriage and marital fidelity and encouraged an anything goes moral climate in sexual and other matters."
    The mainstream media? The Hollywood clique?
    How do we tell ourselves that churches are all moral on these matters when so many religious voted for trump? That sentence is a very apt description of him personally. People can't hide who they are very well anymore. We can bemoan the loss of so called morals, but it's just because the reality of those who used to be able to claim morality are no longer able to hide the evidence to the contrary.

  • Lets check the facts Santa Fe, NM
    Jan. 4, 2018 6:50 p.m.

    This article is spot on

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    Jan. 4, 2018 5:32 p.m.

    "Regrettably, Americans attend church less often and thereby miss critical lessons in moral standards."

    Which morals? Jesus and his disciples drank wine, but some religions teach that is immoral. The bible says "God hates divorce" but some church's think that an twice divorced man, whom admitted adultery, is a good moral President. When church's stuck to teaching good principals and said to "be kind to one another", a lot more people attended church. When church's started using the legal system to discriminate against others, judge others and drive wedges between brothers, people started to leave churches. When churches return (IF they return) to teaching (and living) good principals, to everyone, and setting a good example, perhaps more parents will take their kids to church again.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Jan. 4, 2018 5:27 p.m.

    I'm a former elementary teacher and I can tell you all for sure that teachers at all levels DO indeed spend a lot of time and effort trying to teach morality, honesty, and the other good habits every citizen should possess.

    But then, we turn around and look to see the examples set by our politicians and some business leaders and realize that our job may well be hopeless.