@Karen R."I agree. They were equally poor choices for the
job."It's nice to see we have an opinion in common
@ Counter Intelligence"Trump does not act presidential, yet
Hillary continues to remind us there was no better alternative."Karen R. here.Setting aside policy preferences due to political
perspective (which are matters of opinion and not good/evil as they're
currently portrayed - to our detriment)...And with the exception of
the areas of presidential comportment, knowledge of government, and knowledge of
history...I agree. They were equally poor choices for the job.
Trump does not act presidential, yet Hillary continues to remind us there was no
better alternative. In a bad vs worse election; bad is still better.
@ Tyler D"...do you think it is objectively better to
be..."I don't think putting the word "objective"
before a subjective term makes it objective. We decide what qualifies as
"healthy" or "well-being" in a given context, so these concepts
necessarily don't exist independent of our judgment. We ARE a point of
view. I don't see how we escape this.
Redshirt when you talk about the economy you conveniently ignore the mess Obama
inherited and conveniently ignore the solid economy Trump inherited. You are
comparing apples to oranges especially since Trump is only ten months in.
Let's talk in a few years for a more accurate comparison. If
you want to talk about day to day behavior the Republican hypocrisy is off the
charts. If Trump were a Democrat your side would be going nuts with the
constant childish tweets. You would be demanding impeachment for multiple
reasons. It is sad that the party that always thought they had higher morals
has stooped to this level.
His impulses have proven that he will be looked upon as a liability and
hopefully would be denied the POTUS's job in the next election.
My primary reason in voting for Trump was that he would appoint conservative,
family values judges to the various federal courts. So far, he has not
@Bobster,"He actually goes to work each day and is attempting to
put forth an agenda that is beneficial for the majority of Americans". That
comment was really, really funny.
Vladimir Putin - with his bet on Donald Trump - have done in a mere 2 years, what 100 years and millions of his fellow KGB agents in the old Soviet Union
could not....Divide and conquer America.20 years ago,
Putin promised to "Make Russia Great Again!" (sound familiar?)
@Karen R.People can be wrong due to ignorance or any number of
reasons – that IMO doesn’t undermine the notion of objective
morality.Try this - do you think it is objectively better to be
healthy rather than not healthy (e.g., excellent health vs. metastasized cancer
throughout your body) or is it just an opinion? I think the answer
is obvious: health is an objective criterion for well-being. Same with a happy,
flourishing society vs. one in abject misery. And the logic applies
to both – there are lots of people who do things detrimental to their
health. Doesn’t mean health is not objective; just means people are
ignorant or driven by other forces (e.g., sugar craving, etc.).RE:
moral evolution – this is why I’m careful to say
“objective” and not “absolute.” I can imagine
intelligent beings that, by our standards, would be morally bankrupt.
Doesn’t mean morality is not objective, just that it’s not absolute
(true for all time in all universes). That said, it’s hard to imagine
beings for which their own well-being (and their offspring’s) is not a
foundational (objective) criterion for morality.
Bobster.."The fact that he is not a Washington "insider" or career
politician is refreshing to say the least. "No Bobster it is
existentially..yes existentially dangerous.It's becoming clear
that the functioning of the government is becoming dangerously incompetent from
a lack of staffing, and incompetent staffing (Sam Clovis, in agriculture, Ben
Carson in housing, only the beginning).I would argue with you all
day long about the need to reduce the size of govt. I might even agree in some
places. But to have the government implode is suicidal. Just
yesterday Trump he is not worried about a lack of staffing in the State
Department because he is the only one who counts. You can't
make this stuff up.
@ Tyler D"...what other values/goals could one possibly have
that would supersede moving away from that state?"Reverence for
tradition? Or simply fear of the unknown. But that makes me wonder how they
would even know to call it misery if it's all anyone knows. Aren't
you the one looking upon the situation and making that judgment?I'm also reminded of a documentary I saw about some talented kids among
the lowest caste in India who were given an opportunity to realize their
potential. Some chose to stay with family/what they knew over advancement. We
aren't entirely rational beings.But I'm keenly aware of my
lack of education in logic/philosophy here. I mean it when I say I'm sorry
if I'm missing something that's obvious to you.Re: moral
evolution, as I understand evolution, morality would only continue to develop if
it remained a survival advantage. (Or possibly if it had a neutral effect. Not
sure about that.) But natural selection would choose against continued
development if conditions made it a disadvantage.
To "FT" you didn't say all of that. You said he was " Greedy,
narcissistic, unfaithful, with a lack of integrity and honesty." As I
sated, you can say the same about Obama. You would probably argue the
unfaithful charge, but you forget the incident where Michelle had to sit between
Obama and the PM of Denmark.
Trump may be different, but he is just as presidential as any of his
predecessors. The fact that he is not a Washington "insider" or career
politician is refreshing to say the least. He actually goes to work each day
and is attempting to put forth an agenda that is beneficial for the majority of
@Redshirt"To "FT" and how is that any different than any of
the other political candidates? You have only described the basic character
traits of all politicians. The only thing different about Trump and the previous
president is the party affiliation."Huh? Let me cite several factual,
documented differences. Obama has never proclaimed to be a groper, committed
adultery, called woman pigs, referred to political opponents as
"crooked" "lyin" "liddle", been accused of multiple
cases of sexual assault, declared multiple bankruptcies, stiffed clients, etc.
While I may not have agreed with many of Obama's policies, as a
person he is a fine human being. Trump is not.
I would say that Trump never being Presidential is a bit of an over statement.
But surely his propensity to tweet like some middle school mean girls club
member surely degrades the image of the President. What he says useably is
infantile at best.But from time to time, he has spoke eloquently.
Not often, but it does happen. The dumbing down of American is in full swing.
The more crude, rude, and uncultured you are, all the better.
@RedShirtLet’s take your points one by one:“2 credit downgrades for the US” – entirely the result of
Republicans in Congress playing chicken with our debt ceiling.“Added over $10 Trillion to the debt” – due almost entirely
to the Great Republican Recession (GRR) of 2008. And the deficit trend was down
under Obama, whereas in most Republican administrations it is up (I expect Trump
will follow suit).“Lowest labor participation rate since
Carter” – mostly due to Baby Boomers retiring.“lowest average GDP growth” and “Slowest recovery from a
recession since WWII” – and yet the 2nd fastest recovery rate from
the GRR of any nation in the world except Germany.“Decrease in
average wages by $5000” – again, thank the GRR and the decades long
“conservative” policies of shipping jobs overseas.“Increased total regulatory burden by billions of dollars.”
– happy to have this debate if you’ll acknowledge that along with
costs, there is a benefit side of this equation too. How many billions of
dollars do the benefits add up to?
"President Trump has yet to be presidential"So what? You
could easily make the case that we have gone almost 14 years without the
president acting presidential. Get over it. Your guy (or gal) lost. Move on.
To "Fred44 " Obama was just as bad as Trump with respect to how he acted
as President.As for Obama being the worst, just look at his economic
record. It has nothing to do with the fact that he was a Democrat.:2 credit downgrades for the USAdded over $10 Trillion to the
debtLowest labor participation rate since Carterlowest
average GDP growthSlowest recovery from a recession since WWIIDecrease in average wages by $5000Increased total regulatory
burden by billions of dollars.When you look at the biggest things
that Obama has directly influenced, he is worse than Jimmy Carter.
@Karen R. – “moving away from abject misery and towards its opposite
this as an opinion rather than an objective fact”Here’s why I think it is an objective fact and not just an opinion. If
an entire society (including you) is in perpetual, abject, unredeeming misery,
what other values/goals could one possibly have that would supersede moving away
from that state? Suffering is at times seen as good but only if
there is a light at the end of the tunnel. In my example, there is no light. If it is not objectively better to move away from that perpetual state
of misery, then not only does “better” become meaningless but
perhaps so does “objective” – i.e., what could be more
objectively obvious than “perpetual misery is bad?”RE:
moral evolution – all I’m saying is that the long term direction is
always “up” even if we destroy ourselves – i.e., at some point
life will start again and move in an upward direction. By upward I mean from
simpler to more complex forms of life arguably able to experience more of the
“higher” virtues or states.
To "Redshirt" no, Trump will retain the title of Worst President in US
history. Obama will only get the title of Most Hated by the Right and Fox
News.The problem is that your ilk would still hate Obama and claim
he was not presidential even if Jesus came down from heaven and endorsed him.Hey Redshirt statement was mostly accurate except for a couple of
places, so I took the liberty to correct them for you.
@ RedShirt"The problem is that your ilk would still hate Trump
and claim he was not presidential even if Jesus came down from heaven and
endorsed him."Trump has broken too many of the Ten Commandments.
Jesus would forgive but not endorse.
To "Utah Girl Chronicles" no, Obama will retain the title of Worst
President in US history. Trump will only get the title of Most Hated by the
Left and Media.The problem is that your ilk would still hate Trump
and claim he was not presidential even if Jesus came down from heaven and
endorsed him.To "FT" and how is that any different than any
of the other political candidates? You have only described the basic character
traits of all politicians. The only thing different about Trump and the
previous president is the party affiliation.
@ What in Tucket"A $5 trillion increase in the stock market as a
result of a business friendly administration and deletion of a lot of
unnecessary regulations suggests..."...that it's once again
time for regular Americans to watch their backsides. Conservatives have put the
foxes in charge of the hen house again.@ Tyler DI keep
hoping you'll add an account. Please do. What you have to say is always
worthy of reading: thoughtful, informed, humorous when the situation calls for
it. We need more of that. Looking forward to your response.
Excellent letter. Thank you.
Tuckett.."A $5 trillion increase in the stock market as a result of a
business friendly administration and deletion of a lot of unnecessary
regulations suggests that you may well see a GOP landslide next year. "Once again here we go with the conservative willful blindness. Guess
what the 5 trillion represents? an 18.9% increase..good huh? Oh wait
here's what happened in the Obama years. The years you hate so much.2008 -37.0% 2009 26.5% 2010 15.1% 2011 2.1% 2012
16.0% 2013 32.4% 2014 13.7% 2015 1.4% 2016 11.9% See a trend here. It has nothing to do with Trump?
Hard to be “presidential” when you suffer from a personality
likely more than one. @Karen R.I ran out
of comments on our other thread. If you chime in I’ll post my response
Trump is a reflection of today's American society. Greedy, narcissistic,
unfaithful, with a lack of integrity and honesty. That does not mean all of us
are or even some that voted for Trump but he does reflect much of what our
society has become.
@Ford DeTreese"To quote Masha Gessen from the New Yorker, writing
about psychiatrists who are diagnosing Trump from a safe distance:"You do realize such diagnosis from afar is Malpractice and their licenses
could be revoked.
Presidential - no.absolutely not, not in a million years.Tyrannical, Dictatorial, Authoritative, Abusive, Despotic, Autocratic, Totalitarian, Narcisstic - Yes,
absolutley. 'I'm the only one that matters' ~ Donald
Trump, FoxNews, Laura Ingraham, Nov. 2, 2017
@ What in Tucket?"What you want to know is what he is doing. A
$5 trillion increase in the stock market as a result ..."My
stocks are doing really well right now. We are talking trillions and trillions
here! I don't like reading negative things about Trump. Please tone it
With Mr. Trump if you want to know what is going on do not take what he says
literally. That's a smokescreen. He is a Manhattan realtor and that is
the way they talk. What you want to know is what he is doing. A $5 trillion
increase in the stock market as a result of a business friendly administration
and deletion of a lot of unnecessary regulations suggests that you may well see
a GOP landslide next year. The wall is good it can keep out drugs. The tax cut
will be great if it goes through. Just reducing the tax code to a one page form
will surely reduce the $600 billion we pay in tax compliance. A continual smear
campaign by the media is pretty ridiculous, but I see many believe them.
REmember this: it's the economy stupid.
This is not really about Trump anymore. Everything we're seeing now was
evident from the start. To quote Masha Gessen from the New Yorker, writing about
psychiatrists who are diagnosing Trump from a safe distance:"As
professionals, these psychiatrists have a kind of optics that may allow them to
pick out signs of danger in Trump’s behavior or statements, but, at the
same time, they are analyzing what we all see: the President’s persistent,
blatant lies (there is some disagreement among contributors on whether he knows
he is lying or is, in fact, delusional); his contradictory statements; his
inability to hold a thought; his aggression; his lack of empathy. None of this
is secret, special knowledge—it is all known to the people who voted for
him. We might ask what’s wrong with them rather than what’s wrong
Gee, ya think? Did anyone who actually voted for him expect him to change once
he got in the White House? He's 71 and marvelously narcissistic. Those two
a a perfect recipe for a reified personality.
“President Trump has yet to master the art of being
presidential.”That is the understatement of the century! LOL!
I hope you’re not holding your breath!
All you people that say he is for the little people the common man, please do
share one thing that he has done that has been good for the little people and
the common man.Let's see on day 1 get me great insurance with a
lower premium, I am still waiting. Middle class tax cut, read the bill it is
not a middle class tax cut, it is a tax cut for the wealthy with the hope that a
little more money might flow to the middle class, unless you are upper middle
class and your children are all adults and then it will be a tax increase. Please help me, what has he done for the middle class and please give us
something he has actually done not just something he said he would do.
No One.."The people twisting the President's words know he was not
devaluing the life of a brave man, but they choose to promulgate lies for
political purpose."Here's the real problem again..(Mr.
Eversen if you are reading). Who doesn't listen to whom?The
issue here has never been the left claiming the President was diminishing the
life of the soldier. The issue has always been the statement was offensive to
the wife. She understood it as offensive. The President rather than choosing
to empathize with the wife and apologize for the misunderstanding of his intent,
picked a fight with the wife, and lied about what he said.How
Presidential is that, and how do you defend that as Presidential?
I think Trump's capacity to be presidential is limited. What disturbs me
more is those who, with their actions and inaction, continue to support and even
encourage the behavior we've been getting. Because as I see it,
Trump's narcissism makes him a slave to his fans. He needs their
adulation, so they have great power to demand more from him. But
they don't and they haven't. A solid 30+% of my fellow Americans have
demonstrated for two years now that they are just fine with overtly divisive,
corrosive, and vindictive behavior. One-third of us, folks, the vast majority
of whom hail from the dominant group in this nation and describe themselves as
Christian. A guy like Trump is the face of their values, their beliefs.To paraphrase Capt. Call (Lonesome Dove): Heck of a vision.
Thanks for your letter Al. You hit the nail on the head. The presidency has
become a laughing stock because of the openly corrupt way the president operates
and the leadership in Congress has turned into cowardly little boys instead of
the brave patriots we need to correct the mistake this country made last
It depends on one's values. I'll take a president -- like Trump -- who
actually has the best interests of the nation and its citizens at heart, over
someone superficially "presidential."
When the President said that the man "knew what he was getting into,"
the implication that people of good will understand is that "he understood
the risks and chose to enlist anyway." Mr. Trump was praising a good man who
lost his life in the service of freedom and his nation. The people twisting the
President's words know he was not devaluing the life of a brave man, but
they choose to promulgate lies for political purpose.Please stop and
think about why Donald Trump is President. He spoke to and for the "little
people," those who are overlooked by the ruling class. He ran against the
woman who labeled a large portion of our nation as "deplorable." My
neighbors who voted for Donald Trump are not deplorable, but many of the
political class are. Our political system is corrupt. It destroys the lives and
reputations of honorable people, so honorable people cannot become President.
Instead of the elusive "president of sterling reputation," we have our
"knight in tarnished armor." Elections, and political rhetoric, have
consequences.However, he sounded presidential when he declared that
the immigration lottery that brought us our latest terrorist mass-murderer needs
Trump is a made for television reality TV clown.He will NEVER be
Presidential. Ever!Some people think Obama, Carter, or Clinton were
the worst.others think Nixon, or GW Bush were.Trump is the
combination of the worst of each of them combined, and times 1 million.History will look back at TRUMP and he will be the "laughing stock",
and they will wonder who were the deplorables who voted for him in the 1st
I'm sure by the time 2018 mid-terms roll around, Trump will be considered
the worst president in US history. He is the torch bearer for the Republican
I personally dislike trump. He is a classic narcissist.That said I
will support him when I agree with him, like his views on gangs and oppose him
when I disagree with him.
It's no surprise. If you bought his claim that he would, you bought a lie.
He's 71, he's not going to change who he is. He did try to
rebrand his behaviour as 'modern presidential', but there's no
disguising it behind semantics. The real problem is that this was one of
the more benign lies he got elected with.
Trump is an embarrassment to America, the GOP and the human race. Every other
country recognizes this. And Utah still approves of him. A very sad reflection
on our citizens.