@BelieveInAmerica - St George, UTMi dear Sir/Lady, do you realized
that Columbus never set foot in what is now the United States? At best Puerto
Rico. Which is by many accounts a colony of the U.S.A.If we all Humans
are children of God. The Nationalism is wrong.
Nationalism means each country is governed by the citizens of that country.
Nationalism is the opposite of Globalism which favors worldwide government.
Populism is a belief in the power of regular people, and in their right to have
control over their government. Elitism is a belief that a small group of
political insiders or a wealthy elite should govern. In my view, President
Trump's politics (and mine) stands for Nationalism and Populism. His
opponents usually favor Globalism and Elitism.
@byugraduate "Nationalism protects freedom of religion."I
guess whether that comment is true or not, depends on which nation and which
Just who is putting politics over the gospel? Not me. I'm
following the Book of Mormon, "the most correct of any book on this Earth,
and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding
by its precepts, than any other book."
I knew this was coming, but it is still disconcerting to see so many members of
the Church putting their political beliefs above the teachings of living
prophets. It was a lot easier to be a politically conservative Mormon when
nothing church leaders said was too challenging to your beliefs. But now that
the prophets' counsel is getting uncomfortable for some conservatives, they
have to choose - what is your highest priority? The gospel or your politics? I
hope and pray that you will choose the gospel over politics, whatever your
politics may be.
I was able to count 10 different verses in the Book of Mormon which use the
phrase "choice land above all other lands" when referring to America.
That's not including the verses where the Lord reveals to Nephi how
Columbus was guided here by the hand of God and that the nation's founding
was divinely inspired.Captain Moroni also seemed to be a strong
Nationalist who wanted to keep his nations border, culture and religion intact
when he built up his armies, formed walls around his cities, and even went to
war against his own government using the Title of Liberty as his rallying
call.I could go on, but how much more evidence do you need to show
that the "keystone" of the LDS religion is, at it's very core,
I find the advice about "nationalism" very adequate. If the LDS Church
is to be the Church of the Lord, if it is to be a nationwide church it needs to
eliminate divisions and differences based on cultures, ethnicity, nationalism
and particularly those misguided feelings of superiority or exceptionalism. Even though I disagree with the church in some aspects. I have to admit
and express my admiration for the freedom to evolve the Mormon church
demonstrates. This is one example of an organization that is growing and
getting comfortable with its growing prominence in the world stage.
"Despite growing opposition and commotion, the best days are ahead for the
kingdom of God and there is no need for church members to fear."____________________What growing opposition and commotion? It's
time the church shed its persecution complex once and for all.
Yes! There is some prejudice in this country, but much of it is emphasized,
created, and exaggerated by media and politics.
The term “nationalism” in its historical and contemporary use speaks
of arrogance and selfishness. “America First” is a good example of
both of these characteristics. The gospel tenants, on the other hand, speak of
In today's world of politics, Nationalism means each country is governed by
SOME OF the citizens of that country.Let's face it, there are those
citizens that feel entitled to govern, and to determine that some citizens are
not entitled to govern.
@BYUgraduateIt does if you are the correct religion. Make no mistake, most
nationalists consider Mormons to NOT be part of that category.Look at
Russia's recent restrictions placed on religions other than the Russian
Orthodox church. Do you feel that LDS missionaries being unable to proselyte
and in a couple cases, being expelled from the country counts as protecting
Nationalism protects freedom of religion.
As far as goes the exceptionalism of the US, the sad fact is that the US has
become much like other nations in many ways and is ceasing to be exceptional.
The founders did not err so much as that subsequent generations have undone
their work. This is a great pity. I recall President Hinckley referring to the
fact that we have had few great presidents since the remarkable generation that
established the foundation of the nation, and regretted the embroilment in wars
that defined the twentieth century.De Toqueville cannot be
over-quoted in his statement in "Democracy in America": If America
ceases to be good America will cease to be great. We have come a long way down
that road and it can only be reversed by repentance. Most seem to have accepted
too much that is morally bad and morally unacceptable.The Book of
Mormon demonstrates that other nations have populated the land choice above all
others and only prospered inasmuch as they were righteous. We are subject to
the same rules as were they.
@Rubydo. @LDS Liberal.Rubydo said, "So are we supposed to think that
the USA is just another country equivalent to some third world nation since
nationalism is a sin now in the eyes of church leaders?"While
the people of the USA are no more precious in the eyes of God than the people of
Uganda, the USA actually is governed primarily by documents established by God.
We know this is true, because this truth was revealed to God's prophet, and
canonized in scripture (D&C 101). So, in that sense, all members of the LDS
Church believe that the United States is different than other nations. I
don't think Elder Ballard was challenging this notion with his statement
about "nationalism."But, the appropriate recognition that
America's governing documents were divinely established should never lead
American LDS members to boastful or prideful behavior. Rather, they should lead
to greater gratitude to God and more humility.
In today's world of politics, Nationalism means each country is governed by
the citizens of that country. Nationalism is the opposite of Globalism which
means all countries are governed by a single global government (a worldwide
government). I stand for Nationalism and oppose Globalism!
@Commentator88So you come to a crossroads. Does your politics direct your
faith or your faith direct your politics? I've noticed people are fond of
religious leaders getting into politics as long as they agree with the
statements but shying away as soon as it does not. The church has
several times in the last few months drawn a line in the sand regarding our
current flavor of nationalism. This is no different than when a line was drawn
regarding gay marriage. I know many left leaning members had a hard time with
that. But they either stood with the Church or they stood with their politics.
Now it's time for the right leaning members to make the same choice.
Rubydo - Provo, UTOct. 2, 2017 10:30 a.m.So are we supposed to
think that the USA is just another country equivalent to some third world nation
since nationalism is a sin now in the eyes of church leaders?======= Yes.America = Uganda... the same children of the same
God.Elder Ballard was spot-on.FYI, Nationalism is a form
of Pride. and Pride is what destroyed the Nephites.
@Commenter88"Nationalism is anathema now? Love of country and the
sacrifice it takes to defend and care for one's nation is now thrown in
with sexism and racism?"That's patriotism. Nationalism is a
corrupted version of patriotism that drifts towards things like hatred of
@Gilda: You provide an agreeable definition of "nationalism" that is
backed by common sense and good will.However, the problem is that is
not the denotation or the history of the word. In fact, "nationalism" is
one of the great unifying phenomena in the history of the world. The rise of
nationalism in preceding centuries brought disparate and cross-ethnic peoples
together with common purposes of defense, economic trade, and improvement in
general welfare. Before "nationalism" the world was was ubiquitously
engaged in ethnic, or tribal conflicts, across the globe. I
can't help but suspect that this is either an unfortunate usage, or a
targeted reference against Americans having protectionist views on their labor
and middle-class, working family conditions. I hope I am wrong. I do not welcome
receiving political-economic prescriptions in church. Or having my economic
viability ideas lumped in with "racism" and "sexism."
I'm trying to remember a Conference that was as powerful as this one.As we witness the decay of society and as we witness men who's
"hearts wax cold" and who's "hearts fail them", I walked
away from this Conference with greater optimism and faith than I ever have
before.The best days of the Kingdom of God on Earth are ahead of us.
I invite everyone, critic and believer, to believe in Christ and seek after
Him. A good place to start would be an honest, sincere study of the Book of
Mormon.Peace and respect to all.
This general conference talk is NOT about politics. It is about how people in
the church treat each other. PERIOD!!!
Some of these comments are very political. When I read the church leaders
comments about "prejudice", I relate it to my own experiences in the
church. I am not proud to state that I have been married several times but the
experiences in doing so has given me a very different perspective on church
members and on these comments of prejudice. I have experienced how it feels to
be treated so differently depending on what status I have had in the church at
various times in my life. I have been single, divorced, married in the temple,
not married in the temple, poor, on church welfare, off of church welfare,
married to a Mexican, married to an anglo, married to a Bolivan etc. I was
treated very good when married to an anglo with a cute little family. Been
treated very bad when married to a Mexican and a Bolivian. I know what it feels
like to be constantly ignored and basically just treated very rudely when going
to church. I don't understand where you people are going with this
"nationalist" stuff and all the other political talk but I've sure
met a lot of very "prejudice" members at church over the years. 47 yrs.
worth. I don't think people understood the message. I did!
@third Try Screen nameI recall a EQ lesson several years about about the
priority list of who you are. For example, while I'm a registered
Republican and typically vote as such. I am an American before I'm a
Republican. I would never consider protecting the party at the expense of the
nation as a whole. By that same token, I'm a member of the LDS church
before I'm an American. I love my country, I think there is no
better nation in the worlds than the US. But I see no way that those two things
mean restricting immigration, at least to the level that seems to be in vogue at
the moment. This country was built on the dreams and hard work of immigrants. It
boggles my mind how folks seem to think that changing the foundation of our
nation will somehow make it stronger.
I agree that Ballard's use of the term "nationalism," without
clarification, is/was unfortunate. I mean, look at the very distracting
conversation happening here in the comments section debating it! Ballard
should've stuck with, "racism" and stopped there. The word
"nationalism" is a too politically charged term at the moment. Without
clarification, it could lead some to (mis)interpret an LDS apostle as
condemning patriotism, national sovereignty, or controlled immigration--things I
don't suspect Ballard necessarily intended. (And if Ballard
*did* intend such an interpretation, well... I suspect the church would see an
exodus of tithing dollars rivaling early saints leaving Nauvoo).
Alright. Since we are quoting dictionaries. Here is the "Webster's New
World Dictionary" from a book (remember books?) not off an internet source
that can be manipulated. There are many ways "nationalism" can be
described. It depends how it is used on the sentence. Personally, I would
like a clarification from Russell Ballard on what he meant. I am confused by
what he meant. Otherwise, I guess we can take our pick of what Ballard meant.1. a) devotion to one's nation; patriotism. b)
excessive, narrow, or jingoist patriotism; chauvinism.2. the doctrine that
national interest, security, etc. are more important than international
considerations. 3. the desire for or advocacy of national independence.
I can't remember "nationalism" being condemned so roundly in
previous General Conferences. Of the definitions I found in the dictionary, 5
of them appear to be entirely harmonious with the gospel as I know it. Only 2,
excessive patriotism/chauvinism, and having interests separate from the
interests of other nations appear to be counter to the teachings of Jesus
Christ.I could even be convinced to have open borders (not just with
Mexico, but) with all nations, so long as we can effectively exclude those who
wish to do us harm. Like almost every other nation I can think of, we should
also require that those who want to come to the US do not become a burden on the
US taxpayer. I am not saying that everyone who comes gets to automatically be a
citizen, either (and no anchor babies, either). But, I am saying, under the
right circumstances, open the borders to any who want to come and enjoy the rich
opportunities a free society like America has to offer would be beneficial to
all.Now, of course, my Midwestern neighbors, so indoctrinated over
the years in "unionism," would be absolutely terrified if they knew I
was in favor of open borders.
My problem with the use of the word "nationalism" is that the media has
co-opted the term as a substitute for supremacy.The Charlottesville
jerks were termed "white nationalists," which taints the meaning
considerably. As such, it appeared that Elder Ballard was taking sides by not
issuing the same warning about groups like Antifa, Black Lives Matter and
AztlÁn.Further confusion arises about whether or not Saints can
support Trump's "America First!" agenda, or even call for our own
sovereignty as needed.The antithesis of nationalism then becomes
Open Border-ism, probably a good thing for the Church but a bridge too
"Pharr" for many American members.My recommend expires at
the end of the month. The interviews should be interesting.
I would suggest nationalism was used in the context of feeling superior to
others and not to diminish patriotism, which is the love for one’s
country. In the end, I hope we can get to a point where there are no ites, but
we are all gathered under one banner as Christ’s children.
I think I know what was meant when a speaker referred to
'nationalism', and I think it does not mean we cannot have national
laws, or should not obey laws, or that politicians should not care for the
people of the nation, rather than for themselves. Neither does it mean that
the Declaration of Independence was not a great thing, or that national
independence should not have been sought, won and maintained, or that Brexit is
not a good thing - if it is ever implemented. Nor does it mean we should not
have national borders and retain a wise system for controlling immigration.It is not a statement against the president of the US, nor in favor of
the hoodlums of Antifa. It is not an arbitrary change in the founding documents
of the nation.It is just this: we should not be hostile to
'outsiders' in general; we should appreciate the different
perspectives, that are good and useful, that 'outsiders' so often
bring. No one should feel an emotional refugee in a Church meeting.This is totally consistent to other talks and seems to be a matter of growing
So are we supposed to think that the USA is just another country equivalent to
some third world nation since nationalism is a sin now in the eyes of church
Regarding the “use of the term nationalism [as] unfortunate”(3rd
try): Under one definition, "loyalty and devotion to one's country"
(merriam-webster), I can agree with that, but in the context, a different
definition is more appropriate. Dictionary.com’s 3rd definition is
"excessive patriotism; chauvinism", which might also be put as
"viewing one's own nation as superior to others". I see
nothing wrong with desiring to help one’s own country, as they are the
people that we can serve best, but it is wrong to exalt one’s own nation
at the expense of people of another nationality. As Elder Ballard stated in the
quote the quote that started this thread of the conversation "We need to
embrace God’s children compassionately and eliminate any prejudice,
including racism, sexism, and nationalism." In my opinion, that
which harms another nation will often come back to bite the nation which caused
the initial damage. In that way, I believe that those things which put one
nation above another will ultimately be detrimental to both. When that is the
result of nationalism, then nationalism has gone too far, but when nationalism
is inspiring people to serve in healthy ways, then it is good.
@Not-in-Utah-anymore - , CAWhen using words one should look at how
the word is most commonly used in the present. Historical contexts are well and
good but the majority of the audience doesn't immediately think of those
Third try screen name - Mapleton, UT said: "The use of the term
"nationalism" was unfortunate."If you're a book
reader can I offer a book recommendation?Fields of Blood: Religion
and the History of Violence by Karen ArmstrongShe argues that
although religion is often blamed for most of the violence throughout history,
that was seldom the case. "Nationalism," however, has been a consistent
driving force for violence and war. Maybe that's the context of Elder
Ballard's comments.Food for thought.
Third try, No it wasn't.
It was a great conference, and I was glad to hear direct and clear condemnation
of racism (yes it's not always white against black) and nationalism.
I get it, but why not just say racism. There are many types and not all are
October 1st 1842. Orson Pratt publishes a letter in the Wasp, refuting John C
Bennett's claim that the Pratts would be leaving the church. Orson further
states that he and his wife intend to make Nauvoo our residence, and Mormonism
I’ve heard local church leaders advocate for an open border with Mexico
and chide members for using “illegal” - as either a noun or an
adjective - to describe anyone in violation of US immigration laws.
That’s problematic for a lot of people who believe in the rule of law and
the idea that countries exist primarily to benefit their citizens and legal
I love the church's strong stand against racism.......
The use of the term "nationalism" was unfortunate.
Nationalism is anathema now? Love of country and the sacrifice it takes to
defend and care for one's nation is now thrown in with sexism and racism?
Where is this is in the scriptures? Since when is a pre-eminent concern for the
welfare, maintenance, security, well being, management, and borders of
one's country, along with careful exercise of a nation's independence
now considered a sin? This is really confusing.