New Joseph Smith Papers volume shows the Mormon prophet's 'toughness'

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  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Sept. 28, 2017 9:47 p.m.

    Commenter88 posted:

    =When will our history books start recognizing this for what it was: a religious
    =pogrom? Mormons don't use that term because they love their country. But that
    =is what it was, in fact. It was mob-motivated, but tacitly allowed by the US
    =government.

    A pogrom. That's precisely what it was.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Sept. 28, 2017 9:44 p.m.

    American First posted:

    =Winter quarters was an encampment, the Saints used their own resources to
    =survive the winter, no government was delivering them food or supplies. The
    =Mormons had no intention of staying anywhere along the Mormon Trail permanently
    =nor did they rely on the government for help, they kept moving. Those are
    =called pioneers not refugees.

    Why are we arguing whether the Latter-day Saints at Winter Quarters and Utah were refugees or pioneers? The point of the article was that the Saints moving from Missouri to Illinois were refugees. Missouri was the hostile environment, while the citizens of Quincy, Illinois at least for a while gave them refuge, so it looks pretty clear to me that they were refugees then.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    Sept. 28, 2017 9:39 p.m.

    Skeptic posted:

    =Joseph Smith was as tough like concrete, all mixed up and set in his ways.

    Skeptic, could you elaborate on this? Why do you think that Joseph Smith was "all mixed up and set in his ways"?

  • Dan Maloy Enid, OK
    Sept. 28, 2017 1:55 p.m.

    First, anyone who claims that early Mormons being kicked out of Missouri were not "refugees" but were instead "pioneers" is splitting hairs.

    A refugee is someone who has, for whatever reason, been forcefully removed out of the their home when they would have preferred to have stayed in their home. They are "refugees" who seek "refuge" (comfort, peace, safety, etc) because they don't currently have it. With this common sense definition, these early Latter-day Saints were definitely "refugees".

    Second, making fun of Joseph Smith is acceptable in terms of how you choose to use your God-given ability to make decisions, ie, your free-will. But retaining false ideas and perceptions forever is not. Haters may hate, but eventually they too will see that Joseph Smith is exactly what he said he was: a man chosen by God to be God's prophet and to do God's work. And, Joseph Smith did just that.

    BTW, did I say that haters "will" become Mormons? Nope, only that the truth will be seen and understood.

    Best wishes to everyone, even those who currently don't understand.

  • bass679 Novi, MI
    Sept. 28, 2017 6:45 a.m.

    @American First
    Yes, after they had obtained permission from the US government to settle temporarily on Omaha tribe Indian Territory with the help of Thomas Kane. As part of the agreement the Mormon Battalion was formed.

    The first definition for refugee I found was, "A person seeking refuge in a foreign country out of fear of political persecution or the prospect of such persecution in his home country." That seems to pretty well describe the Saints fleeing from the US to settle in what was at the time part of Mexico.

    Just because they were pioneers doesn't mean they weren't also refugees. The terms are far from mutually exclusive

  • Commenter88 Salt Lake City, Utah
    Sept. 27, 2017 9:14 p.m.

    When will our history books start recognizing this for what it was: a religious pogrom? Mormons don't use that term because they love their country. But that is what it was, in fact. It was mob-motivated, but tacitly allowed by the US government. Luckily, things have generally improved with the advent of the 14th amendment in this regard.

  • sashabill Morgan Hill, CA
    Sept. 27, 2017 2:43 p.m.

    skeptic,

    With all that was happening, Joseph Smith didn't have much time to get "set in his ways."

  • American First Merced, CA
    Sept. 27, 2017 1:59 p.m.

    @bass679 Should we rename them the Mormon refugees?

  • American First Merced, CA
    Sept. 27, 2017 1:55 p.m.

    @bass679 - Winter quarters was an encampment, the Saints used their own resources to survive the winter, no government was delivering them food or supplies. The Mormons had no intention of staying anywhere along the Mormon Trail permanently nor did they rely on the government for help, they kept moving. Those are called pioneers not refugees.

  • bass679 Novi, MI
    Sept. 27, 2017 12:24 p.m.

    @American First
    Sure once they reached Utah. But refugees is exactly what they were when they fled to Council Bluffs and Winter Quarters.

  • American First Merced, CA
    Sept. 27, 2017 11:03 a.m.

    "church of refugees" - uh nice try, the Mormons were not refugees as there was nobody to give them refuge, they created their own cities, government and refuge. Way different than current refugees.

  • blackattack Orem, UT
    Sept. 27, 2017 10:33 a.m.

    @skeptic

    And skeptics are the jackhammers that chisel away at any statue they see. They find the flaw and make it bigger. They even create new flaws.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    Sept. 27, 2017 10:02 a.m.

    Joseph Smith was as tough like concrete, all mixed up and set in his ways.