Millennials approve of religious freedom as a choice, but don't know what it means

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  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Aug. 3, 2017 11:54 a.m.

    @sportsfan

    you were the one to first equate good governance with the predominant form of religion not me. I merely pointed out that if you wish to make such claims then you need to do so based on the full historical facts.

    as to your claims about teen pregnancy, from the CDC Birth rates per 10000 1950 59.5, 1951 65.0, 1952 64.2, 1953 66.2, 1954 68.00. from the most recent data available starting in 2008 40.2. 2009 37.9, 2010 34.2, 2012 29.4.

  • Cheesecake Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 2, 2017 6:22 p.m.

    From reading this article, it appears "millennials" know exactly what "religious liberty" means. Emily Hardman, president of Amicus Communications, is the one who doesn't seem to get it.

  • Sportsfan123 Salt lake, UT
    Aug. 2, 2017 2:18 p.m.

    @tolstoy

    First of all one govt taking advantage of another one for resources is not a true christian endeavor, govt's are corrupt no matter where they are, and is not hardly a true comparison of moral culture of its people.

    And to your other point, stating teen pregnancies and abortions are at record lows. Sure I will agree with that based on the records and stats.

    However before 1950 teen pregnancies and abortions were almost non existent. Infact in 1950 the teen pregnancy rate was slightly above 10%, case inpoint, moral values like abstaining from sex until married, no drugs ...etc were a non issue before the 1950's. Since then its been a major social problem.

    But if someone cant see the obvious that no sex before marriage means no unwanted pregnancies, no abortions, the spread of std's would dwindle significantly - then you are from another planet.

    @moderate

    I made no mention of sharia law, you did.

    But if you support drugs sex and rock and roll, then dont complain about societies ills, ever, because you contribute to it.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 1, 2017 7:14 p.m.

    @Furry1993 "Freedom of religion does NOT mean that people can use religion as an excuse to provide or deny service to people in the civil/secular marketplace. "

    And especially it must not be used as an excuse to deny service when such is contrary to accepted scientific fact. For example a relative of my wife, a woman, married an Asian man. She was white, he was Asian. After they married they tried to obtain lodging but were unable anywhere in the state of Utah. Why? Because it was believed in those days, early 1950's, that such marriage, mixing races, was contrary to the laws of God. Finally we know differently. We are coming to be enlightened with regard to homosexuality and transgenderism.

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Aug. 1, 2017 4:24 p.m.

    @NoNames wrote,

    "As the supreme court held unanimously in Hosanna-Tabar, churches enjoy absolute freedom in hiring and firing ministers and in determining which positions are ministerial vs which are secular."

    Nobody's claiming otherwise. Why bring this up?

    "Individual business owners must be given the widest possible latitude in running their businesses in accordance with their religious beliefs."

    Why? Are you suggesting that a Muslim shopkeeper should be legally able to stone a woman entering his business because she was not accompanied by a man? Or because she didn't cover her hair?

    "Simply denying to employ creative talent for another does not harm the other and must be protected."

    Are you in favor of overturning the laws that protect people from being discriminated on the basis of religion? Or race? As in, "we don't serve [or "use our creative talents"] for *your kind* here"?

    Decorating a cake to match a stock picture is a skill, not a "creative talent".

    13 LikeReport

  • Laura Bilington Maple Valley, WA
    Aug. 1, 2017 4:13 p.m.

    "Millennials approve of religious freedom as a choice, but don't know what it means"

    A more accurate statement would be that most millennials don't see discrimination against LGBT people as acceptable. It doesn't matter whether it's blatant bigotry or described as "living my religion".

    "Living my religion" is the excuse for female genital mutilation. But in this country, that's illegal, no matter how fervently the parents believe in it.

    You do NOT have the legal right to treat other people badly, and use the "participation" argument as an excuse. The cake bakers are finding that out.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 1, 2017 3:47 p.m.

    @Patriot "I also understood the dangers of Communism because I grew up as a baby boomer and the Cubian Missle Crisis and Viet Nam and so on.... I went through nuclear bomb drills in grade school so I understood that Communism was an enemy of freedom and liberty. I also saw the Berlin Wall and all the people murdered by the Communist Khmer Rouge after the Viet Nam war ended."

    I get where you are coming from Patriot, but you should also appreciate the American economy was built on black slavery - this is literally true. And in capitalism profits are made from the exploitation of labor. Can we have a free society with equality and no exploitation? That is the challenge.

  • r henry Ventura, CA
    Aug. 1, 2017 12:22 p.m.

    It has long been the case the young people return to the Faith of their upbringing once they start having their own families. Large numbers of millennials remain childless. I expect their understanding and valuing of Faith will increase as they raise families.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    Aug. 1, 2017 11:54 a.m.

    @Yar;

    There is nowhere in your religion that you are required to deny products or services to ANY customers. NOWHERE. Quite the opposite in fact. Jesus, the founder of your religion, COMMANDS you to treat ALL other people in the manner you would like to be treated by them. THAT is the way you should be "practicing" your religion - to use your own words: "Why is that not obvious?"

    Asking to be able to refuse the products and services you willingly provide to ALL other "sinners" is actually the action of bigotry. Only bigots want to practice bigotry; if you don't like the label, don't practice the cat.

    If you don't want to "make us miserable" then why do you ask for the ability to make us miserable?

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    July 31, 2017 7:54 p.m.

    @ Yar

    "It's not like we want to make your life miserable or anything..."

    Okay. If you were to learn that, despite a lack of intention, the manner in which you were exercising your beliefs WAS making LGBTs miserable, would you still argue that you have this right?

  • twinkleberry67 Layton, UT
    July 31, 2017 7:50 p.m.

    I still maintain that the politically correct dogma of millennials is freedom FROM religion not freedom OF religion. I think people are grownups and have the ability to decide whether or not they want to involve themselves with religion or the practice of it thereof or not. There are all sorts of behaviors going on all around me that I neither believe in nor agree with, but I respect others right to choose what they want to do. Too many people confuse judgment of behavioral practices with judgment of a person and I posit that these are not one and the same as commonly thought. I can’t tell you how many times I have deeply cared for someone but hated what they do or have done.

  • Kralon HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    July 31, 2017 6:53 p.m.

    Pretty much anything couched in the terms of "freedom" and "tolerance" is acceptable to millies.

    They will eventually learn to look deeper and learn to use sound judgment. Every generation is dissed by the previous. In spite of the challenges, America is mostly going strong and I do know some millies that are very impressive.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    July 31, 2017 2:51 p.m.

    The more I hear Millennials talk the more worried I am for America. Granted I wasn't exactly on top of my US history at age 19 but I at least understood what religious liberty meant because I understood that is one of the main reasons for the Pilgrams coming to the new world and then later the US constitution. Freedom to practice religion without government interference as in China or Russia. I also understood the dangers of Communism because I grew up as a baby boomer and the Cubian Missle Crisis and Viet Nam and so on.... I went through nuclear bomb drills in grade school so I understood that Communism was an enemy of freedom and liberty. I also saw the Berlin Wall and all the people murdered by the Communist Khmer Rouge after the Viet Nam war ended. Finally I at least understood that Communism and Socialism were ugly cousins built from the same rotten foundation of BIG controlling government and no freedom. The majority of Millennials are clueless about all of this. Very scary.

  • EscherEnigma Ridgecrest, CA
    July 31, 2017 1:33 p.m.

    @Yar
    No one is trying to make gay people miserable?

    You do know that Utah still has a sodomy law, right? The only reason I'm not a criminal in Utah is because the Supreme Court.

    So before we even get to "miserable", your state is trying to make me a *criminal*.

  • Baccus0902 Leesburg, VA
    July 31, 2017 1:02 p.m.

    @ Yar

    You wrote:
    " If you want me to have a more positive attitude towards the civil rights agenda of today, you're gonna have to do better than label us as "bigots" every single time we practice our beliefs."

    Yar, if your religion teaches and demands from you to live and act as a bigot and yet you feel insulted for being called a bigot. Wow! that is a tough spot to be in. May be you should consider your options:
    1. Re-examine your religion, may be the religion you practice is not for you
    2. Re-examine the way "you" understand and practice your religion. Do most of your brothers and sisters in the faith have the same dilemma?
    3. If you are a Christian, perhaps you would like to do the thing that Christ would do if He were in your place.
    4. If you practice love even for your enemies I don't think anybody will accuse you of being a bigot. I hope your religion allows you to do that.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    July 31, 2017 12:41 p.m.

    @Sportsfan123

    you may also want to take a look at the statistical historical trends which show that among others things teenage pregnancies, abortions and crime all remain well below historical highs, so in short no the world is not falling apart because of a lack of judio chritain influence.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    July 31, 2017 12:35 p.m.

    Sportsfan123 "No religion, more secularism means moral decay, its not hard to see this."
    Is this a call in favor of Sharia Law? The enforcement of God's law is intended to end moral decay.

  • Yar Springville, UT
    July 31, 2017 12:03 p.m.

    Why not just throw us a bone and let us worship as we please, you know? It's not like we want to make your life miserable or anything (at least I'm pretty confident that religious believers in general want the best for everyone).

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    July 31, 2017 11:11 a.m.

    Religious freedom is a personal right, not an institutional right. Most churches, including the prevailing one here in Utah, don't see it that way. They think that the interests of the institution are paramount. This attitude actually leads to less religious freedom.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    July 31, 2017 10:41 a.m.

    @Sportsfan123

    if you look at those "third world countries history you will see that almost everyone of them was until at least the mid to late 20th century subject to rule by western Judo-Christian countries that exploited their people and resources leaving them far behind the rest of the world in terms of development, I would hardly call that a ringing endorsement for judo Christian morals.

  • Yar Springville, UT
    July 31, 2017 10:31 a.m.

    "There is a difference between a business serving people equally and forcing a business to participate in a ceremony that violates their religious beliefs. We should respect religious freedom of these people."

    Why is that not obvious? If you want me to have a more positive attitude towards the civil rights agenda of today, you're gonna have to do better than label us as "bigots" every single time we practice our beliefs.

  • Sportsfan123 Salt lake, UT
    July 31, 2017 9:49 a.m.

    Look at history to figure out what direction society is going.

    Look at all of the modern westernised countries, almost all have a thick history of judeo christian values, not all but most.

    Now look at the difference between 3rd world countries and others ruled by totalitarianism, or dominated by a specific religion and you'll these countries are behind in development either because of political totalitarism or religious stagnation or lack of religious diversity.

    Obviously too much of one thing is not good in society.

    So lets look at todays society of the westernised world, and you'll see that most people thru several generations have forgotten the old core values of judeo christian lifestyles the ones where everyone is expected to get married have large families and get educated and religion played a big part in this culture. All of these countries including ours have progressed further than the others because of this culture.

    Now because of progressive and liberal ideals our cultures are faced with major social problems, less strong family units, drug and alcohol abuse, alternative lifestyles. No religion, more secularism means moral decay, its not hard to see this.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    July 31, 2017 8:51 a.m.

    I am unaware of any religion which has a ceremony to bake and sell cakes to the public. Those who craft cakes are operating a business, not practicing religion. Business is a privilege (not a right), so you are "enslaved" by the rules of commerce.

    If your religion teaches that you not wash your hands when preparing food, that you use expired ingredients, and never clean the kitchen, you may practice that religion as you wish. However, you may not sell the products of that unhealthy environment to the public.

    The rules of business state that you must serve all of the public. You are not participating in the ceremony. You are not invited to the wedding. It is a cake. Who cares if the customer calls it birthday, wedding, retirement, or just plain dessert. Its is only a cake.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    July 31, 2017 8:17 a.m.

    Good, well presented valuable article. Now the writer should reframe it in the honest context of differing the seperation of religious freedom, church laws, rules and regulation, church tax exemption and business practices, and public works financially supported community infrastructure that support churches and businesses. When these are thrown into the mix one clearly sees that the true issue of religious freedom is prejudice, ignorance, money: all with nothing to do with the wishes or will of a god.

  • LOU Montana Pueblo, CO
    July 31, 2017 7:54 a.m.

    "We we refuse business to Mormons. We will not bake your cakes and we will not decorate your cakes because you are Mormons."

    But the law says you cannot discriminate against a person's religious beliefs or sexual preference.

    "Millennium's have no moral compass because of liberals and Democrats."

    Interesting statement. Trump talked to our Boy Scouts about orgies on a yacht and how about Dennis hastert former Speaker of the House and then there's Jerry Sandusky, all fine examples of moral compass on the Right, conservative values/republicans.

    There is nothing wrong with millennium's. They are their own people and they're picking their own future. They will learn from their mistakes the same as we did. They will pick themselves up when they fail and they will move forward the same as we did.

    How stupid to keep picking on these millennium. How ridiculous to blame political parties. I don't blame them for diconnecting from religion.

    My former neighbor, a bishop, would not let my daughter play with theirs because I'm not affiliated with their church. Now tell me how valuable religion is?

  • Ranch Here, UT
    July 31, 2017 7:37 a.m.

    Fullypresent says:

    "Others are so anti-religious they have no tolerance for people of faith. They persecute them as much as they feel persecuted for not being religious."

    --- I have to disagree with that. I'm probably one of those "anti-religious" people you mention. I'd be more than happy to leave the religious alone if they'd stop being such jerks to anybody who doesn't adhere to their favorite mythological being's rules.

    There is a vast difference between being "intolerant" of the persecution from religious bigots and fighting back.

    Those persecuting the religious are actually other 'religious' people who seem to think that theirs should be the only religion accepted.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    July 31, 2017 6:39 a.m.

    based on the data and constitutional law I would say Millennial's understand religious freedom quit well what they do not do is agree with the DN's expansive belief that people can use claims of religious belief to violate others rights.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    July 31, 2017 6:33 a.m.

    "'They think it (religious freedom) is merely just a choice, and it’s troubling to see that so many don’t know what it means more than just choosing — it means practicing that faith in a meaningful and authentic way,' said Hardman."

    History shows us that every generation determines what "religious freedom" looks like in practice. Millennials are consistently telling us that, because they don't have the same beliefs about LGBTs as their elders, practicing their faith in a "meaningful and authentic way" isn't going to include asserting the right to refuse them service or employment.

  • Fullypresent Salt Lake City, UT
    July 30, 2017 10:11 p.m.

    A Quaker - Brooklyn, NY
    July 30, 2017 8:24 p.m.
    There are two bedrock pillars of freedom of religion. Not three, not five, two. FIRST, is the right to avoid religion... SECOND, is the right to practice your faith free of government oppression or control.

    You are so right. There are many people out there that are spiritual but not religious. There are people that get so rigid and rabid about their religion they can't see any other point of view. Their extremism is dangerous as evidenced in the Middle East and some parts of the United States. Others are so anti-religious they have no tolerance for people of faith. They persecute them as much as they feel persecuted for not being religious. It isn't just gov't that can be that way but people with each other.

  • A Quaker Brooklyn, NY
    July 30, 2017 8:47 p.m.

    Hope & Faith: A century ago, there was little over one and a half billion people on this planet. We've since grown five-fold, to seven and a half billion. We are at extreme risk from that most unprecedented growth. Our agriculture is more dependent than ever on everything going just so. Our resources are strained to the max.

    We're more likely to wipe out Mankind by overbreeding than underbreeding. So, please consider that in your overwrought analysis of marriage and morality in America.

    Further, I'm wondering if your parents had that "birds and bees" talk with you. Marriage doesn't make babies, people do, and they all too frequently do this outside of marriage. No, it doesn't make the most financial sense or the strongest family units, but we're in no danger of ending our future from a failure to mingle genetic material. Only from a failure to protect our Earth.

  • A Quaker Brooklyn, NY
    July 30, 2017 8:24 p.m.

    There are two bedrock pillars of freedom of religion. Not three, not five, two.

    FIRST, is the right to avoid religion. The reason this is first is because without it, the government can decide which religion you WILL follow, and exactly HOW you will follow it, under penalty of law. (cf Saudi Arabia, for example.) And, obviously, once the government decrees which religion you must follow, you won't be free to enjoy the second pillar:

    SECOND, is the right to practice your faith free of government oppression or control.

    Where so-called "religious conservatives" of certain denominations err is in thinking their religious beliefs allow them to impact other people's rights. They do not. Civil law in a free nation provides a framework that gives equal rights to citizens of all religions and to no religion.

    If you can't live within that framework, move to a country that has your religion as its official religion, or otherwise sequester yourself away from the secular world.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    July 30, 2017 6:16 p.m.

    "Millennials accept a general view of religious freedom as being important, but they struggle to understand what religious freedom really means."

    Probably just means that multiple groups are defining it as different ways.

    [58 percent of millennials agree that “Religion is personal and should not play a significant role in society.”]

    The rough translation of this is that people think religion shouldn't be infringing on other people's rights and laws should protect people from that. It's why people (including I imagine a large portion of people who disagree with that statement) react negatively to the idea of Sharia Law. Now opposing an entire religious system of law is obvious, but what about an individual piece or two of laws that make up Sharia? It'd probably depend issue by issue as to whether or not they restrict the rights of others, right? Maybe one piece we'd be 95-5 against, maybe another we'd be 90-10 for, maybe another would be like 50-50.

  • Rubydo Provo, UT
    July 30, 2017 5:01 p.m.

    There are Islamic doctors being accused of FGM here in the US that are using the freedom of religion mantra as an excuse and there are also some who would argue that honor killings, amputation for theft, and the stoning of adulterers should be acceptable because they are long held religious beliefs.

  • Hope & Faith give us strength Utah County, UT
    July 30, 2017 4:28 p.m.

    Impartial7,

    Don't worry, those that turn away from religion will have kids too. And when their kids don't listen to them, I'll be calling them pretty smart kids. ;)

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    July 30, 2017 4:26 p.m.

    "1. There is a difference between a business serving people equally and forcing a business to participate in a ceremony that violates their religious beliefs. We should respect religious freedom of these people"

    -- Businesses once claimed that serving black people "forced them to participate in an event that violated their 'religious freedom' "; fortunately, those spurious claims were overruled by SCOTUS.

    Unless the business owners refusing LGBT ceremonies also refuse the ceremonies of fornicators, adulterers, and other "sinners" then all their claims are proven to be hypocrital and nothing more than bigotry using "religion" as the excuse.

    @NoNamesAccepted;

    Businesses should be required to serve all customers equally. Period.

    @Hope;

    When you choose to open a business, you are not being "enslaved" when you are ASKED to provide LGBT customers the same product you provide EVERYONE else. All I can say about your comment is that such a view is absolutely NOT Christian in any way, shape or form.

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    July 30, 2017 3:46 p.m.

    Freedom of religion means that people can believe and worship as they choose, pray as they choose and advocate as they choose. People are also free to refuse to listen to the prayers and advocacy. Churches are free to determine their dogma, decide who can join the church and what church rites are available to its members. People are also free to refuse to belong to any church. People are free to socialize as they choose.

    Freedom of religion does NOT mean that people can use religion as an excuse to provide or deny service to people in the civil/secular marketplace. If a vendor/provider is going to sell or provide a product or service to some people, s/he must provide the identical product or service to all people. If a vendor/provider is going to refuse to sell or provide a product or service to some people, s/he must refuse to provide the identical product or service to all people. In other words, treat all people equally. Do not practice prejudicial discrimination in the civil/secular marketplace.

    Easy to understand.

  • Midorikawa Orem, UT
    July 30, 2017 3:17 p.m.

    Maybe if religions didn't push an agenda that their "right" to prevent others from signing a legal document the last forever years ago, us millennials wouldn't balk at the concept of religion as a whole.

    For that matter, the new separate but equal isn't helping either. We did study segregation in school, after all.

  • Impartial7 DRAPER, UT
    July 30, 2017 2:52 p.m.

    Based on the statistics that millennials want very little to do with religion, I'm betting they approve of freedom FROM religion. Smart kids.

  • Thomas Thompson Salt Lake City, UT
    July 30, 2017 1:54 p.m.

    "Religious freedom" may be acceptable as a general proposition, but it depends entirely and absolutely on the content of the religious freedom being claimed. Thus, for example, would Christian Science parents have the right, in the name of their "religious freedoms," to deny their child the right to medical care without which the child will die? Should a Jehovah's Witness member be permitted to refuse their child a blood transfusion? Is it acceptable to sacrifice an animal on an altar in the name of "religious freedom"? These questions about "religious freedom" become much more serious and problematical when we involve other sentient beings -- especially children -- in our religious dogmas.

  • Sanefan Wellsville, UT
    July 30, 2017 1:52 p.m.

    Millennials are confused because this Country has lost it's moral compass and that my friends is due to progressive liberals/Democrats.

  • xert Santa Monica, CA
    July 30, 2017 12:07 p.m.

    It is becoming more and more obvious by the day that religious discrimination is no different than any other kind of discrimination and is at it's core--festering with self righteousness and bigotry. If your religion does not "allow" you to serve others (who are--by LAW--doing nothing to harm you)-because your God wouldn't like what they are doing, you should consider going into a business that wouldn't present you with these quandaries and moral obstacles to success and peace of mind. Your religion is your affair. Equal justice under law is simply more important than you being allowed to exclude whoever you feel like excluding. Nobody ever went to war to protect your right to be the moral conscience of wedding cake decorators.

  • Hope & Faith give us strength Utah County, UT
    July 30, 2017 11:58 a.m.

    Moral Law & Freedom have a critical dependence on each other.

    Littering laws weren't formed because it was easy to see how a single discarded can of coke would destroy life on Earth. We don't know what the tree will look like in 30 years. What we do know is that it won't even exist in 30 years without water.

    Mankind as a whole cannot survive without fathers and mothers. That's not some oppressive religious dogma. It's the natural order of our existence. Religious involvement in government may not have a perfect track record. Every century on Earth has seen people invent new kinds of stupid. But we won't even have a future to call a history if we keep discouraging people from having children. And that future won't be as stable and happy if we can't keep men and women faithfully married to each other.

    None of that requires anyone to stop anyone else from living as they wish. All it means is that freedom and prosperity will never happen if our laws don't uphold the traditional family as the standard of human prosperity. Those that fight it the most are those that don't want freedom, but power over others.

  • Hope & Faith give us strength Utah County, UT
    July 30, 2017 11:38 a.m.

    When I was young I prayed to know of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. I received a clear answer to that prayer. I could no more deny it than denying I have a heart. I've never seen my heart, but I do feel it beating inside me. I do feel God working within to change me into a better person, when I'm willing to follow the instruction.

    Like children, we sometimes like to do things our own way even at our own peril. The Kingmen hated rules, hard work, and anything that didn't give them whatever they wanted. Their immediate satisfactions and lusts were all that mattered. So they waited while good men, even good women and children fought. They sent others to war while staying home to overthrow their government.

    The purpose they had was to enslave others to their will. I believe when someone tells me "bake my cake or else..." they are doing just that. The "or else" ends with " or else I'll ruin your life by taking your passion and livelihood to provide for your family away from you". Meanwhile they could have simply gone to another baker.

    Freedom comes from not having to do what is popular or easy, but what you believe in.

  • NoNamesAccepted St. George, UT
    July 30, 2017 11:38 a.m.

    Freedom of speech requires us to tolerate speech that may offend us: the politically incorrect, the sacrilegious, even the hateful. A line is properly drawn at speech that targets individuals with specific threats of harm, inciting a riot or encouraging other violation of law, and libel and slander. Freedom of speech protects potentially offensive speech in public as well as in private.

    In like manner, freedom of religion requires us to tolerate religious beliefs and practices that may be offensive, off putting, even categorized as hateful by some. Freedom of religion protects the public expression of religious beliefs and practices in addition to protecting private worship.

    As the supreme court held unanimously in Hosanna-Tabar, churches enjoy absolute freedom in hiring and firing ministers and in determining which positions are ministerial vs which are secular.

    Individual business owners must be given the widest possible latitude in running their businesses in accordance with their religious beliefs. Simply denying to employ creative talent for another does not harm the other and must be protected.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    July 30, 2017 10:57 a.m.

    Millennials are confused because the meaning of religious freedom as advanced by the religious right is very confusing, and not just to millennials.

    Does religious freedom mean views based on religion can be freely advanced in the public square (most don't argue with this), or does it mean religion must be obeyed in the public square?