To "Sunsang2005 Lindon" so what you are saying is that all paying
teachers more does is retain teachers. Students will not do any better, test
scores will not go up, teachers will not care any more. We won't get
better teachers, just the same teachers will remain.So, tell us
again why this is a good thing.
WPU increases can be ate up by insurance costs and so forth. Most teachers
never get the WPU the state gives. In regards to health insurance costs, during
negotiations much of the WPU could or other local funds could be used to keep
premiums and coverage the same though medical inflation is greater. For the
last decade and maybe a few years beyond Provo district teachers have not got
raises that were in line with the stated WPU. In fact, as I said earlier, many
years the raises Provo school district teachers got were 1% or less or none at
all. For two years steps were frozen altogether. It is important for the
public to realize two things:1) The WPU does not reflect what actual
raise teachers will get in salary. Salary is determined by a variety of factors
including both state and local funding While Park City and other districts are
getting big raises, other districts are not.2) The WPU again is not
just tied to salary, it is money given to districts which then decide how to
allocate these funds. And as I said previously, sometimes preserving benefits
or not having them get much worse, is where this funding goes.I hope
this answers your questions Orem Parent.
Red shirt, you are not paying attention. I never said the teacher pay affected
the parents or students. It will help with the problem of retaining the good
teachers who could leave the profession for "greener" pastures. I also
explicitly stated that the responsibilities of the parents and students are
vital to success. Teachers could never properly replace parents, and I never
said they could. A great teacher can motivate a struggling student who wants to
learn despite poor support from parents, but it should not be necessary. The
thing is we agree that teachers cannot do this alone. You are just bent on
having an argument without understanding that we are saying the same things.
Parents need to take ownership over their child's education, teachers beg
for this, but don't always get it. The only thing teacher raises do is
allow them to support their own families and their aspirations for more and more
hands-on activities for their classroom. I started out teaching for less than
1500/month take home with a baby on the way, and even spent a short time
virtually homeless during my first two years. I love teaching. Does that mean I
should have to do it for as little as possible?
Howard, how can Provo only get a 2% raise when the state gave a 4.2% raise to
It is important that NOT all districts are getting this windfall. For example,
Provo School District teachers got a 2% raise and went nearly a decade without
any sizable raises, some years no raises and in two years steps were frozen.
While Park City teachers will make 50K, teachers in some districts like Provo
will still be in the 30-35K range.
To "Sunsang2005 Lindon" you didn't answer the question that I asked
you.How does paying a teacher improve parent involvement in their
child's education?Since studies show that the greatest
influence in a child's education is their parents, why are we looking to
replace parents with teachers?
I have asked this question before - where is all the money coming from to
increase salaries. Just a couple of months ago education was screaming that the
increase by the legislature would not even cover new incoming students.What cuts are being made in every district so they can increase pay for every
teacher - and I am sure administrator and every other classified employee in the
Red shirt,I never said the increase in teacher pay would change anything
academically. I actually acknowledged that the parents and the students,
themselves hold a great deal of the responsibility for education. If a child has
low or no desire for learning, there is only so much a parent and teacher can
do. If a parent and their child have low or no motivation, how in the world is
that the teacher's responsibility? I did say that being chintzy with them
is not wise.
@Naval VetIn answer to your question. Look at Brave Sir Robin's
comment as well as kfbob. They both are suggesting that the scores should
immediately go up. I realize it's probably in jest, but my point remains
valid. Expecting scores or whatever you want to look at, to rise based solely on
teacher efforts is ludicrous. Accountability also lies with the parents and
students themselves. And short-changing a teacher on his or her salary is not
wise as good teachers will eventually leave for the obvious greener pastures.
To "kfbob" how are things going to be any different in a year? Will the
teachers still have the same curriculum to teach? Does paying a teacher more
automatically make them care more? Will the bad teachers be fired and replaced
by better teachers?What is going to change?To "There
You Go Again" why wouldn't you want a public school to be more aligned
with a private school? You do know that private schools out perform public
schools in nearly every test. Why are you against improving education?To "Sunsang2005 Lindon" but study after study has shown that the
biggest influence on how well a child does in school is parental involvement.
How does paying a teacher more improve parent involvement?
As evidenced by places like California, Illinois, New York, etc...when
teacher's salaries go up the quality of education goes down. The biggest
change the locals will feel will be their property and local taxes going up
Sunsang2005 Lindon, Utah:Who here exactly is suggesting that raising
educator salaries will "alone...make-up for the responsibilities of all
other areas of a child's life"? It seems to me that what's being
debated here is "how much" does raising a teacher's salary benefit
the student?Personally, I think that raising teachers' salaries
will result in more people choosing to pursue that occupation, which would
thereby increase the pool of applicants from which to choose, which would
thereby raise the standards for education. And THAT would be where the students
begin to reflect improvement. Utahns can't do much to enforce educational
standards "in the home", but they CAN do something about enforcing
educations standards in your "public schools".
The salary being raised, does not directly correlate to higher student
achievement. Why? and why is it foolish to assume that it does? Because the
teacher is only one part of a child's education background. Socioeconomic
status, parent involvement, and student attitude and desire all play parts of
the equation as well. Any one of my current or former elementary students can
tell you that an equation that is completely solvable can only have one
variable. Several on this board are saying in essence,
"x+y+a+b+50,000=student achievement. Um, you fail. Without considering all
of the variables it is just bad math to expect the teacher alone to make-up for
the responsibilities of all other areas of a child's life. We might be able
to overcome one or two of these areas that we have no control over, but all of
them? Nice to see you expect superhuman abilities from the teachers. Get real!
no question teachers should start at 50k but also they should ALL be required to
have a Masters degree as well. We need to get what we pay for. Some of my kids
teachers in High School probably should have gotten a pay cut instead.
I'm glad this bidding war is for teachers and not just for NBA players.
Hopefully it'll keep good teachers teaching, but at the same time money
doesn't fix all the problems.
I'd be happy to pay good teachers a white collar salary, even higher than
$50k starting, if teachers would submit to white collar practices like at-will
employment and not paying all teachers based solely on seniority and degrees
earned, but on how much in demand their subject is and how good the individual
teacher is.As long as teachers insist on blue collar practices like
lockstep raises, due process for firing, and first-in-last-out layoffs, they
shouldn't be surprised at being paid a blue collar wage.
So we should expect student test scores to go up proportionally, right?
Paying new teachers...The die was cast years ago when the
re-Publicans decided to make public education a whipping boy in their political
platform.After years of demonizing Public School Teachers, the
chickens continue to come home to roost.One need look no further
than the PAY to PLAY Department of Education Secretary De Vos. Armed
with nothing more than a personal agenda and backed by roughly $200,000,000,00
in re-Publican political patronage courtesy of her family's political
largesse, De Vos continues to bumble her way along the road to the complete
wholesale privatization of the entire American Public School System.That being said...Congratulations to the PC School District for
offering the starting salary indicated in the piece.The onus is now
on the District and School Administrators as well as the Classroom Teachers to
prove... via student performance... that they have earned this salary.
kfbob:"With this increase we should see tangible results in the
classrooms this next school year."Not so. The "tangible
results" shouldn't be expected until several years down the line. Next
year's staff of educators really won't be much different from last
year's, so merely "raising a teacher's salary" won't
impact "how students learn". What raising their salaries will do, will
attract more high school graduates to consider majoring in "Education"
when in college, since $50K ain't a bad starting wage. This will thereby
start to attract smarter people into the profession, which will result in a
larger and more qualified pool of teacher applicants -- 4 to 5 yrs down the
line. In the short term, it could serve to attract a larger pool of applicants
from out-of-state.And in the end, all the teachers who are in Park
City right now, will still be the "same teachers" they were last year.
The "tangible results" you're seeking is more likely going to come
from the NEXT generation of educators. You gotta look at this move from a
"long-term" perspective. Don't be so short-sighted.
@Warren - the correct amount should be variable and be based on competitive
market salaries for similarly trained people. Math and Sciences should be much
higher than $50k. Computer specialties should be even higher than that.
English and Journalism should be lower than $50k. Yes it'll create all
sorts of politics in the workplace but if we really want it to be fair then
we'll operate in market economics rather than school vs private. I held an Elem Ed teaching license in Utah 20 years ago...if I were to leave
my current position I'd lose 2/3 of my salary, even to go to $50k. Not to
mention my benefits package. I'd love to teach but I'd be incredibly
foolish to leave money on the table. Now if they could offer a competitive
package I'd certainly consider it.
So a wage of $50,700 for basically a 10 month schedule would be the equivalent
to $61,000 annualized. Adding benefits most likely increases that closer to
$70,000 per year. According to Labor Department data, that puts them equivalent
to the average Business and Financial Operations management and 41% higher than
the average C&B in the US. Seems about right to me and generous in that it
is 37% higher than the average state employee in Utah.
Kudos to Park City for taking leadership on a crucial issue the Legislature and
other school districts have no ability - or willingness - to adequately
respond.(It's also notable that many people in Park City are
higher earning transplants from other states - the sort of people you'd
expect to buy into the "parent choice" movement to de-emphasize public
schools and let them atrophy. Instead, Park City is re-investing in *public*
schools. That says something.)Having a decent salary to look
forward will attract more education majors in college. Who knows - maybe it
won't be an automatic shoo-in if you want to study education?
2 months? I think most teacher get closer to 3 months. With this increase we
should see tangible results in the classrooms this next school year.
TX BYU fan--I have asked several times- what should that amount be? Many people
say that teachers are underpaid but no one will ever venture to say what the
proper amount should be. Obviously, if you know they are underpaid, you must
know what is the proper amount that they should receive. What would that amount
Jackson, WY pays its teachers $50,000 plus, but teachers can't afford to
live there. I think the same is true for Park City. How many teachers commute
from Coalville or Heber? At any rate, this pay increase makes
Jordan, who was tooting its horn over its "great pay increase," look
really stingy. Just sayin'.
It's a start. If only every school district had adequate funding to pay
teachers like that.
Nice Job Park City. Our teachers deserve much more than they are getting.
Finally teachers getting their fair share
$50k is almost the median Utah household income. In many homes that requires
two incomes to achieve. In a lot of Utah homes, the median household income
does not include benefits. In most homes, achieving Statewide medium income
takes a decade or more of work experience.So $50k plus full benefits
is a very good starting compensation even if someone commutes from a
low-housing-cost area of SL or Tooele counties to work in PC. A
married couple both starting out as teachers in PC would have a combined
household income of $100k plus full benefits. That is a very comfortable
income, especially for a couple both fresh out of college. Doubly so for a job
with 2 full months off in the summer and 3 weeks off combined between
Thanksgiving and Christmas.This should end all complaining about
teacher pay in PC. All of it.But if there is a single suggestion in
the next few years that PC teachers are not paid enough, we will know that no
amount will ever be enough for the union.Is a comfy income
sufficient? Or will it now be about comparisons to other professions?
Kudos to Park City for moving in the right direction to pay teachers what they
are worth. Other school districts in Utah need to play catch up. Teachers are
grossly underpaid in Utah.
This sounds great for them, but how good is it when you take cost of living into
account? Just wondering.