Skeptic posted: ----"But no mention of the Jesus event. The Jesus story was
all written about eighty years after death by hearsay and imagination. No Jewish
or Roman authentication."------Why do we expect in historical
antiquity that there would be much of any evidence of Jesus Christ's
existence? In a area comprised of just the Holy Land alone there were over a
million residents in the time of Christ's short ministry. It was rulers or
military men who had their memory inscribed in stone and artifacts. Jesus would
have attracted the attention of a very small subset of that population and
Jewish and Roman historians would have considered his ministry/disruption to the
social/political culture as very insignificant. Nevertheless, there are
credible contemporary sources to Jesus Christ's existence (especially of
his trial that led to His crucifixion). Josephus, the Talmud, Tacitus who was a
member of the Roman consular nobility and recent physical contemporary evidences
being unearthed all the time. To make such a statement that there is "no
Jewish or Roman authentication" is just not true. At least let's be
intellectually honest and diligent in our research of these things.
There is nothing the least bit surprising that the religion of the patriarchs
"isn't Judaism." Religion evolves. The Christianity of now, of
1,000 years ago, and of 1,000 years before that are all so different they should
rightly be thought of as different religions. Likewise with all other real-world
@JSFOhh man this is nothing. Pop over to the SL trib whenever something
gets posted about the LDS church. I swear there's hundreds of angry posts
within an hour. Mind you part of that might be that the DN moderates anything
really terrible or heinous.
It is really interesting that when a religious based article gets posted by the
DN, the same atheists and agnostics are want to post mocking and derogatory
statements about that Christian religion. Part of the definition of
bigotry is an unwillingness to recognize and respect differences in opinions or
beliefs. An intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.
Skeptic posted:=However, the problem is, if you ask ten different
people, God gave them ten different=answers. People like to
talk about the myriads of people who have asked God if their faiths are divinely
inspired and have gotten "ten different answers," but they never
actually name any names, which leaves me wondering if they've just pulled
these people out of their imaginations. Before we can be sure there's any
problem with this method at all, someone needs to do a rigorous study to
determine whether there's any significant number of people who have used
the same method and have gotten different answers.
Ranch posted:=Which god? Odin, Zeus, Poseidon, Ra, Osiris, Baal,
Quetzlcoatl, Hermes, Dana,=Thor, .... The list of mythological gods is
practically endless; why should any you=believe in be less mythological
than all the others?You don't have to name God before you start
talking to Her/Him; in fact it strikes me as kind of naive to name God before
you try talking to Her/Him. Once you've established contact, THEN you can
ask God what S/He prefers to be called. When I established contact I asked God
if the LDS Church was true. THAT'S why I believe my deity is "less
mythological than all the others."
RE: D Van Duker . looking upon a serpent, raised up upon a staff.In
Numbers 21,. They had already forgotten that it was their own sin that caused
them to be in the wilderness, and they blamed Moses for it. As a judgment
against the people for their sin, God sent poisonous serpents into the camp, and
people began to die. This showed the people that they were the ones in
sin, and they came to Moses to confess that sin and ask for God's mercy.
When Moses prayed for the people, God instructed him to make a bronze serpent
and put it on a pole so the people could be healed (Num 21:5-9)In
John 3:14. Jesus indicated that this bronze serpent was a foreshadowing of Him.
The serpent, a symbol of sin and judgment, was lifted up from the earth and put
on a tree, which was a symbol of a curse (Gal 3:13). The serpent
lifted up and cursed symbolized Jesus, who takes away sin from everyone who
would look to Him in faith, just like the Israelites had to look to the upraised
symbol in the wilderness. Jesus was blameless and sinless—the spotless
Lamb of God. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him
we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor 5:21)..
The period of the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) is an early ancestral
religion. The later Israelite religion covers Joshua’s conquest of Canaan
through the fall of the Northern and Southern kingdoms. Judaism properly begins
with the return of Jews from Babylon and Persia. So when we traverse the linear
development of each successive Biblical period, we are turning the pages from
one era to another.
KevinSim says:"So people who wonder whether that story is true
or not should ask God if it is true or not..."--- Which god?
Odin, Zeus, Poseidon, Ra, Osiris, Baal, Quetzlcoatl, Hermes, Dana, Thor, ....
The list of mythological gods is practically endless; why should any you believe
in be less mythological than all the others?
Hutterite: The article was something of a history-lesson, not proselyting. I
note that your observations are correct, "The sun does not require an animal
sacrifice to rise today, or tomorrow. A forthcoming eclipse does not signal the
end of the world, but rather insane hotel prices." I bet you
would have been one of the more savvy folk; those not taken in or fooled by the
sheer idiocy of looking upon a serpent, raised up upon a staff, as a religious
cure for snake-bite.I thought the background information on Jewish
religious words and traditions was interesting and the carved cabinet was pretty
cool--even if most commenters appear to look upon the depicted story as folklore
@kevinSim,You post: "The way I see it, there are good reasons to
believe there is a God, whether the "Jesus story" is true or not. So
people who wonder whether that story is true or not should ask God if it is true
or not, and count on God giving them a response."Well said. I
couldn't agree with you more.However, the problem is, if you ask ten
different people, God gave them ten different answers. That is why it is so
important that we educate ourselves and learn to think for ourselves, and not to
look so much to other supposed authorities and apologists for direction. They
have a dominate tendency to directed us towards their wallet and a submissive
power of authority.
Skeptic posted:=But no mention of the Jesus event. The Jesus story
was all written about eighty=years after death by hearsay and imagination.
No Jewish or Roman=authentication. So what is the investigator to swallow
here: the gnat or the=camel. I guess, to the peddler it matters not, it is
what profits most that=matters.The way I see it, there are
good reasons to believe there is a God, whether the "Jesus story" is
true or not. So people who wonder whether that story is true or not should ask
God if it is true or not, and count on God giving them a response.
Its all pretty barbaric.
RE: Moresureword. The first mention of sacrifice in the Bible:"
The first Gospel . "Protoevangelium (Gen 3:15), "And I will put enmity
between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and *her seed; it shall bruise
thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Satan "bruised
his (Jesus') heel" by attacking Him in numerous ways during His time on
Earth, which ultimately ended with Him suffering and dying(sacrifice) on the
cross. Through His resurrection, Jesus won the decisive victory, and
"bruised the head" of Satan. "Bruising the head" was a fatal
blow, meaning that Satan was defeated once and for all. His time on Earth will
end, and He will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:10).From the
very beginning, God had a plan to redeem mankind from the penalty of sin through
Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was "manifested" to "destroy the works of
the devil" (1 Jn 3:8) ( Heb 2:14-15, Col 2:15)*her seed of the
woman as Christ is to related to the Virgin birth of the Messiah, as well as
the Hypostatic union of the Divine nature with the Human nature of Christ.
“when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son,
’Made of a Woman
It is comical how apologists argue over straining gnats while swallowing
camels. It is the same extension of fact that during the time of Jesus the
Romans and the Jews kept extreme detailed accounts and histories of the events
of the times including political, military, religious, civil, commercial, and
even inventory accounts. But no mention of the Jesus event. The Jesus story
was all written about eighty years after death by hearsay and imagination. No
Jewish or Roman authentication. So what is the investigator to swallow here:
the gnat or the camel. I guess, to the peddler it matters not, it is what
profits most that matters.
We must be careful lest this discussion devolve into disharmony. We do not want
to give the persecutionists fodder for their cannons of persecution. Indeed, I
issue my strongest possible condemnation to those who seek to turn the tide
against religion. We do not need a return to days like those of Kaiser Wilhelm
II of old.
Beginnings seem to be often judged by the traditions of the current thinking of
Brother Hamblin and Brother Peterson give us food for thought. The religion of
the biblical patriarchs, however, was not about the fulness of the Gospel of
Christ, as delivered to the ancient inhabitants of America, which is focused on
something entirely different than what they focus on in their writings on this
subject. The true "fundamental features of patriarchal
religion" are death and destruction by a "House of Israel" that saw
themselves as more special and important than other human beings. The "story of Cain and Abel" gave fodder to religion to discriminate
against blacks and Native Americans and to justify "blood atonement" of
human beings, contrary to the true Gospel. True intelligence (as defined by the
Prophet Joseph Smith) is not evident in the Old Testament, even as revised by
the Mormon religion.
Matt 13:13-15 is very much fulfilled in the comment section. Thanks
for your insights Bro Peterson and Hamblin. This confirms many things that have
been revealed to me through the spirit in sacred places.
Well I hope that the authors would agree that what is called out in the title
and what is presented in their article is much ado about nothing. Given both
are Mormons it would seem they could understand that God evolved His coventant
relationship from patriarch to patriarch , adding the 10 commandments in Moses
time to the relationship he had with the Jewish people, claimed by Him to be
his own. Prayer and sacrifice, if the authors would "look" continued
even as the commandments were added by God to guide his people. I see all of
what God commanded through the ages as integral to the Jewish faith. In the context of LDS doctrine would the authors say that what Joseph Smith
preached as doctrine in the King Follett discourse is far different from the
concept of God found in the Book of Mormon? To me it is all Mormonism!
RE: The sacrificial system was "imposed until the time of reformation"
(Heb 9:10). For Christians,” Christ's sacrifice was the
once-for-all.“ Christ, our’ Passover lamb’, has been
sacrificed.( 1 Cor 5:7).“Whom God hath set forth to be a
*propitiation through faith in his blood
for the remission of sins that
are past, through the forbearance of God(Romans 3:25 KJV)Greek #2434
Hilasmos=* a propitiation (of an angry god).VS,Mormonism:“
These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will,
when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be
fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and
blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchisedek
Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things
spoken of by the holy Prophets be brought to pass? It is not to be understood
that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety
of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the Prophets; but those things
which 'existed prior to Moses' day, namely,’ sacrifice’,
will be continued.” (Hof C v 4 p.211-212) 1840.
As we ponder the nuances of meanings of individual words in dead bronze age
languages which have since passed through other tongues, all translated by
fallible men, consider that this, then, is the basis of much of our strife and
animosity today. Including whether the neighbour gets uppity about what day i
cut the lawn, and what refreshing beverage I partake of while doing it. Perhaps we need be more in the moment. The sun does not require an animal
sacrifice to rise today, or tomorrow. A forthcoming eclipse does not signal the
end of the world, but rather insane hotel prices.