In regard to Judgement.I wonder if the writer had the same opinions
regarding President Obama and his administration.Please tell me has there
been any scandals involving President Obama and his administration?Only
time will tell if the writer has the same feelings four years from now.
It's one thing to place myself above another human being and judge their
character or integrity, or to withhold forgiveness for an individual wrong
someone did to me.It's a whole different matter to judge
situations and circumstances. Choosing a fit, qualified person as President of
the United States is such a circumstance. Those of us who are Latter-day Saints
are directed by our leaders to prayerfully vote for capable, wise, honest people
for public offices. We would be remiss if we did not use our judgment.I am not the one to call Donald Trump a sinner because he's had three
wives, or may have paid less income tax than a 90-year-old widow or a disabled
veteran, or ogled the teen pageant contestants in their dressing room, or
mistreated employees, or bragged about grabbing women's body parts, or
pulled strings and let other people and other people's kids go to war, or
had too many other shady dealings to list. That is the Lord's job. But I
have every right and duty to judge whether such a person is fit to govern my
country and have the power to exterminate humankind with the press of a button.
Mr. Call, as citizens of this country we are asked to make judgements whenever
there is an election. In my opinion Trump does not have the qualifications to
be president. Many other members of the Church felt the same way, as
demonstrated how poorlyhe did in the State of Utah.
@Michel L. CallIt is interesting that you chose a less perfect
version of the scripture to make your point. I believe you state that you are
LDS, so why would you purposefully choose the untranslated KJV of the bible to
make your point?You are fond of scripture, so I will leave one last
scripture for you:"Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who
substitute darkness for light and light for darkness; Who substitute bitter for
sweet and sweet for bitter!"To many, including Mr. Trump's
public and private detractors, there is no doubt that Mr. Trump is a
narcissistic, bullying, egomaniac who has dealt unfairly with many people in his
life, including ex-wive's he cheated on, business partners he cheated, and
vendors and others he stiffed out of fair payment for services rendered. Not to
mention the awful lies he repeated publically about President Obama's
citizenship, As you mentioned, and I believe, everyone can be
redeemed. I hope, for the nation's sake, that Mr. Trump can find
redemption and serve honorably. Time will tell.
Dr H asked how this piece ever made it past the editors. As the author of the
op-ed, I can answer that question. I had to drop the first part of my original
submission, which began as follows:Jesus said, "Judge not, that ye be
not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again (Matthew 7:1-2, King James
version)." Other translations diminish or alter the meaning of this simple
but powerful teaching. Joseph Smith's translation reads, "Judge not
unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous
judgment."........The LDS community is widely viewed by other
Americans as being self-righteous and judgmental. Do some Mormons believe that
the admonition to "judge righteous judgment" or other teachings of their
Church give them an excuse to engage in self-righteous and judgmental behavior
toward others?Thoughtful comments on this op-ed were made by
Sportsfan123, Mark Terran, patriot and many others.
Michael and others, Where do you get the idea that the majority of Mormons voted
for Trump. Since when do people reveal willing share so freely who they voted
for when that vote is supposed to be secret? I am LDS and I didn't vote for
Trump. Nobody counted my vote unless they broke the law.
@antovdav"There are liberal Mormons out there, but since they
don't come to church very often, I don't know many of them"Or, maybe the liberals keep their political views to themselves..
Reminds me of a story that happened in our ward (outside UT) a few years ago.
One Sunday a ward member approached the 2nd counselor concerned about what
should be "done" about the car in the parking lot--the car with the
"John Kerry for President" bumper sticker. Little did the ward member
know, the 2nd counselor's father (who also lived in the ward) was the local
Democratic committee chairman.....(no, it wasn't his car).
In he battle over what should Utahn's do about the new president elect. I
don't see that changes in ethics and principles are are easily changed.
The Utah primaries did not hold with trump. Utah has the right to question trump
and so it is. I give trump the right to persuade me that he is truly a
president for all the people. So he got a new Job. any one who ever studied
getting a job over a people who did not vote for you is going to be a matter
persuasion those who question his ability to lead. He is going to have to get
through the questioning of the people who did not vote for him and it was a very
closely ran race. I think there was one of those around the time of Grover
Cleveland. this is a nation of becoming more of the people, by the people and
for the people. though the process is slow in relationship to wealthy oligarchy
I appreciate the article and agree that we have been overly critical of our new
President, as a people. Our values are represented most clearly by the
Republican party and Trump was the nominee, so we should have been grateful to
have someone who could beat the competition, and he did. All the criticism was
divisive, and didn't amount to a hill of beans. Our Ward in NC was pretty
much strong behind Trump, once he was selected from the larger group, and we
look forward to the Inauguration to get our Country back on track with the
values we hold dear. I'm still disappointed with Romney and Lee. I
don't understand what they were trying to prove, and Glenn Beck, who I
love, disappointed in his lack of discernment when his voice could have quelled
some of the division. onward and upward, Marsha
To "a plena vitrum" you do know that multiple Prophets in the LDS church
have spoken out against socialism. You even had a declaration issued in the
1940's by the First Presidency stating clearly that Communism and its
cousins (socialism, marxism, etc...) are contrary to God's plan.So, knowing that socialism is something that Prophets have condemned, can you
explain why you believe in it or think it is good?
So, are we not to discern between good and evil then?
Arrogant and judgmental is the perception some people have and I can see why
with the attitudes which have been displayed over President Trump.
@Bluto:Those two words would have been far better than these two words:
My new president is going to be very effective. Even members who supported HRC
are going to enjoy the economic success. How they're going to
reconcile their hypocrisy is between them and God. God bless DJT, a
@antodav, my family and I are "liberal Mormons" . So ask away.Did not vote for TrumpIdentify as a lower case s, socialist.Attend
sacrament meeting every week with exceptions for illness and travelCan
answer the TR questions in appropriate form to obtain oneHold two
callingsYou probably don't see many at your meetings because
you live in a red state. Red state wards are often openly intolerant of anything
but media fed conservative opinions or of critical thinking on social issues.
Just because we don't think its a good idea to echo conservative talking
points in Gospel Doctrine, priesthood or Relief Society meeting doesn't
mean we're without testimony or love of the gospel.So, just
because they don't speak out in the sea red you live in, doesn't mean
they are not there. Sit in the foyer right after the sacrament is passed. Watch
who leaves. Talk to them respectfully and listen carefully. You'll find you
do have them in your ward but they have found the non-essential meetings to be
toxic because of non-gospel attitudes expressed in them."When
everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George
@Earnest T. Bassyou said: "I would love to hear
mormons (sic) justify support for trump. The guy never showed a shred of human
decency. Why was there overwhelming support in Utah for trump"?Answer...Two words....Hillary Clinton
Mormons Should Stop? Stop What?One Choir member out of 360 does not
a revolution make.Nor does a few thousand petition signers out of 16
million members.Put down the broad brush folks.
Oh by the way, a careful reading of Moroni 7 shows us that we can judge others.
The caveat? We need to judge righteously. That is the conundrum.
A lot of those 81% of Evangelicals didn't vote for Romney four years ago
for the simple reason that he was LDS. That said, most people that oppose Trump
are cutting off their noses to spite their face.Everyone needs to
grow up. You don't have to like Trump, but you should support the office
that he holds.
@WastintimeI figured someone would write something in response who
didn't read. I responded to the person who issued a challenge...I replied.
You though, want to make excuses. I don't doubt people have grumbled
about Obama and by your logic, if Democrats can't stand the heat, get out
of the kitchen. As for Trump, yes he offends...but the gold star comment...who
started it? For poor Congressman Lewis...who started it? Now you can say well
it isn't presidential for Trump to respond as he does...well it isn't
very american or classy or so many other words to pick a fight and then accuse
the other of not being diplomatic. Once you look in the mirror at your actions
and attitudes...then feel free to criticize others. All the things that the
democrats accused Trump of that he would do if he lost is being done by the very
people who made the allegations. As for my original post....the challenge was
made. Oh as for that press dinner in which Obama roasted Trump...Trump was
the blunt of the jokes and didn't seem to find it humorous....but you see
what you want when you watch the video of it.
Oh goodness, where to begin?!The very first line of this op-ed is
incorrect. The author writes “The Latter-day Saint tradition teaches to
‘judge not,’“ when in fact the JST of Matthew 7: 2 tells us,
“Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged: but judge righteous
judgment.” So, actually, we are taught to judge righteous judgment.He goes on to criticize people who have criticized Trump. Then he says
we shouldn’t criticize people. He speaks poorly of the Mo Tab member who
stood up for what she believes in. Then says we shouldn’t speak poorly of
other people. Hypocritical much? Yeah.The article ends by saying
that Jesus would not criticize the president-elect. Yeah, golly gee, I
can’t think of any instances in the scriptures of negative things said
about a corrupt government. We, as a people, deserve far better than
Donald Trump as our president. He’s part of a corrupt system that gives
evil people enormous power. I will fight and rail against this atrocity of a
person and make it clear that he does not reflect my values or standards. I
encourage EVERYONE to do the same.
Thirdly, Evangelicals didn't rally behind Trump because they chose not to
judge him for his transgressions. They rallied behind him because they judged
Hillary Clinton's to be much worse. One should not confuse choosing the
lesser of two evils for condoning evil. Trump is not a good person, by any
measure. But he may very well turn out to be a darn good president,
in spite of that.
Second of all, it is extremely bad and false doctrine and a complete wresting of
the scriptures to say that Jesus's commandment to "judge not" means
that we should completely ignore a person's moral failures and forgive any
and all transgressions even when there has not been so much as a hint of
repentance. Trump barely even acknowledges that he ever said or did anything
wrong, much less has he apologized for anything. He openly admitted to never
asking God for forgiveness for anything, even though there is definitely a lot
there to forgive. This article is describing an attitude that is characteristic
of liberal Protestantism, not "the Latter-Day Saint tradition". LDS
leaders have always encouraged Church members to exercise righteous judgement,
and the scriptures explain that quite clearly, particularly those that were
revealed in this dispensation when the Lord knew that moral relativism would
become a plague and a cancer upon the earth. (Cont'd)
OK, sorry, but this is complete nonsense. First of all, Trump won Utah handily,
with anti-Trump Mormon candidate McMullin coming in a distant third, so
obviously when push came to shove most Mormons did *not* judge Trump at the
ballot box. So I don't know whom this article is even referring to. Most
Mormons I know support Donald Trump politically even if they don't
particularly like him personally. There are liberal Mormons out there, but since
they don't come to church very often, I don't know many of them.
@Morhman"He completely mocked and ridiculed Trump at the press
dinner to the delight of those who attended and enjoyed it."Yes.
The White House Correspondence dinner often involves comedy. Trump was one of
several who was the target of that comedy routine in 2011 and clearly Trump
didn't enjoy that. But let's also remember for several weeks
prior to that Trump had been on the air for several weeks questioning,
challenging Obama's citizenship status and religious affiliation. As for Hannity? Hannity has spent the past 8 yrs targeting/questioning
Obama's citizenship status, religion etc etc. offering to send the Obamas
back to Kenya and spreading fake news about the Obamas. (I couldn't find
an instance of Obama targeting Hannity, but I will grant the possibility that he
did). If Trump and Hannity can't stand the heat, then they
shouldn't be in the kitchen.
I would love to hear mormons justify support for trump. The guy never showed a
shred of human decency. Why was there overwhelming support in Utah for trump?
@TheJester - American Fork, UTSeriously you don't think the current
and outgoing president publicly humiliated anyone? You just don't want to
see reality. From the beginning of his administration when he went to Congress
and told the republicans what? HE WON. He completely mocked and ridiculed
Trump at the press dinner to the delight of those who attended and enjoyed it.
Even just recently on the late shows with Jimmy Kimmel and others where he
constantly mocked Trump...not just disagree but mocked and included saying
basically ha ha I am president and you never will be then dropping the mic.
Obama publicly mocked Israel and tried to influence their election. How many
times has he singled out Sean Hannity and ripped and made fun of him? What
about the humiliation of not honoring a single police officer who has died since
he was in office, but he does honor youth who are killed...even though they were
doing criminal things. The list goes on and on but then it doesn't matter
because it was to republicans and they don't count.
LDS member here. The reasoning the author uses is full of holes, as others have
pointed out. The author doesn't seem to understand the context of what
Jesus meant when he advised "Judge not...". Jesus himself called out the
actions of hypocrites and others in strong, pointed terms, and yet he loved them
regardless. It's the ethical and moral thing to do to call out
harmful words and actions such as Trump has demonstrated. Otherwise, we are
staying silent when confronted with damaging behavior that can have terrible
consequences on us as a people and nation. On the flip side, if Trump makes good
choices, we should be thankful for that.
@RedShirtHarvardSo, you say "Trump is not really different from
Obama in his temperament, and how he treats others. The only thing that has
changed is who is receiving the treatment."Please.I
challenge you to provide an example of President Obama publically humiliating
anyone. Mr. Trump is a bully and a narcissist who cannot take criticism. He
lacks empathy for anyone that doesn't fit his definition of a supporter (or
sycophant, take your pick.)You may not like Meryl Streep, but what
she said was absolutely true. Donald Trump mocked a disabled reporter who had
the audacity to write an unflattering article about him. My guess is you
thought it was funny. I didn't. But it did serve to provide a window into
Mr. Trump's soul. Despite my disgust with Mr. Trump, I do
sincerely hope that God watches over him and inspires him to make good
decisions. All of our lives depend on it.
First of all, the writer is judging ALL mormons are anti-Trump and those that
are not mormons are pro-Trump. This is not true.Those judging Trump are
making judgements based on facts...things that Trump has actually said or has
written. These judgement are true.
When Mormons flip-flop their support for corrupt politicians like the President
Elect, I am reminded of a Robin Williams quote: "As an alcoholic, you will
violate your standards quicker than you can lower them."
I'm not sure that your interpretation applies to elected officials.If we know with certainty that someone seeking public office has
committed sexual assault and is unrepentant about it, what is the correct
response? How does that apply to Bill Clinton? You seem to suggest that the
proper response is to ignore it because we should not judge others. I do not think that reasoning applies when choosing a leader. The whole point
of democracy is for the people to collectively judge which candidate they desire
to lead them. Should we limit our evaluation of candidates to their written
policies and goals? But then how do we determine how trustworthy or honorable a
candidate is?Perhaps some feel that immorality is an insignificant
factor in electing a public official. After all, we're not sustaining him
to be our bishop. I disagree. The Book of Mormon emphatically warns us about the
consequences of immoral leaders. Mormon wrote in no uncertain terms about Noah,
Amalickiah, the Jaredite kings, and others. To say that we should not attempt to
gauge a leader's moral compass runs contrary to this scriptural theme.
@RedShirtHarvard - do you really believe that all those things you said
don't equally apply to the other side as well? How often do you see
conservatives taking their side to task when they error? And they do error....
its human nature.The defense of Trump and his comments and actions
has just been as silly as the defense of Obama by some. But to pretend that the
world is so nicely and evenly divided between "liberals" and
"conservatives" paints a real distorted vision on the world.And Trump will not make all conservatives happy just as much as Obama did not
make liberals all happy. Your ability to carry a weapon on federal lands was
something the Obama administration approved.... not very liberal indeed.
People are complex and multifaceted. No one ascribes to any one orthodoxy in
One of the best talks on judging was given by Dallin H. Oaks in 1998/1999.
Obviously at times it is absolutely necessary and appropriate to judge people by
their words and actions. When we go to the ballot box we are being required to
make a judgment. @Sportsfan123"All of you liberals and
Trump haters seem to have accepted the transgressions of B. Clinton, cigar
anyone? Granted Clinton is in the past but since he represented Hillary on the
campaign trail what makes him any different than Trump. Only that he actually
acts on his cumpulsions, actions speak louder than words. So far Trump is vulgar
in speach not in his actions, yet. "I didn't vote for
Clinton the first time he ran for president and if he had run for a third term I
wouldn't have voted for him. What about you? Did you vote for the serial
adulterer who brags about being able to grab women? Who openly says those kind
of things to anyone, let alone who says those kind of things to a media
person--on or off "the record?"
Good job, RedShirtHarvard.See any pattern in your comments?...It is funny to read the liberals......they just woke up......they should pay attention......the typical leftist still can't
see......Your ilk has been known to say......never ends with them
waking up and seeing......Liberals only see their leaders as perfect......The honeymoon that liberals have with their leaders...... liberal
honeymoon with Obama......are those the same people...
I had to just shake my head at Mr. Call's article. I'm seeing an
increasing trend towards misusing, and even weaponizing, the term
"judging" and I think it is terribly short-sighted. Part of living on
earth is learning how to make righteous judgments, and the whole act of voting
is, in fact, making a judgment. We have a right to make judgments about the
leaders we elect, and millions of people make a judgement that Donald Trump is
not the type of leader they want. Now that we have him, I agree that we must
give him space to lead. However, past behavior is often an indicator of future
behavior. I have not seen in him any humility or willingness to accept his poor
behavior and to change. I have no hope that he will lead us well. If that is
"judging," then so be it.
Anytime any of us step into a voting booth we are judging another. Christ
talking about not judging is about personally forgiving and coming to peace with
the world, not about letting tyrants and sycophants reign over us. Maybe our ancestors shouldn't have judged the British so harshly. Perhaps
we took too much effort to judge Mr. Hitler too harshly - after all we lost a
lot of lives opposing him. Don't judge and all those lives are not lost.
Maybe Dr. King should not have been so harsh a judge on the white
supremacists that surrounded him. That would have saved a lot of headache for
the government.Jan Chamberlin felt the need to stand up against
something she see as dangerous. She needs not apologize nor back down. She is
doing what is right. The country is stronger when we oppose
injustice and tyranny. As Dr. King said, "The time is always right to do
what is right" and as we sing in the Mormon church, "Do what is right,
let the consequence follow." To do what is right, one must judge what is not
right. Mr. Call (the author of this article) apparently does not realize this.
I think "Judge not," is completely taken out of context. I'm not
judging whether or not he is going to heaven. I'm voting, and voting is
almost by definition a 'judgement.' I'm not judging
the inner-lining of his soul, I'm judging his CV, his language, his
education, his tweets, his campaign promises, his press releases, his press
conferences, his campaign ethics, his stance on positions, his plan for America
(or lack there of), and yes, I am judging his lewd leaked video. If
he decides to approach his minister, bishop, priest, rabbi, or whatever, in
order to confess his sins, or worship the Almighty, than I will not judge him
for his personal connection with deity, or his right to be warmly welcomed in
the fold of God or Christ. However, as an American, you bet as hell that I am
doing my civic duty as an American to judge him as a Presidential candidate.
"After all is said and done, he has a wonderful family that puts to shame
the families of most of his critics."I dont think it possible that you
could be any more delusional? First of all, you know almost nothing about his
family and what you DO know is that he is on his THIRD trophy wife, both of the
past ones having been cheated on very PUBLICLY. And said third trophy wife was
a soft core porn star. Let alone your blanket statement of "puts to
shame the families of most of his critics" for which you have no basis to
even speculate about since you know NOTHING of MOST of his critics.
It is funny to read the liberals in these forums. It is like they just woke up
and realized that maybe they should pay attention to what the President says.
Trump is not really different from Obama in his temperament, and how he treats
others. The only thing that has changed is who is receiving the treatment.
Liberals cheered for Obama when he attacked Republicans, now that it ti coming
back, they somehow find it wrong?To "marxist" we saw the
"honeymoon" that you had with Obama, and the typical leftist still
can't see all of the problems that he created. Your ilk has been known to
say that Obama's time in office was scandal free, improved race relations,
cut the deficit, made healthcare cheaper, and stabilized the Mideast.The honeymoon that liberals have with their leaders never ends with them
waking up and seeing their leader for who they are. Liberals only see their
leaders as perfect, and put the blame for anything that goes wrong on their
opponents. The liberal honeymoon with Obama has gone on for 8 years, not the 30
seconds you claim.To "Open Minded Mormon" are those the same
people that said Hilary had a 90% chance of winning?
The author is acting like we are judging whether or not he is going to heaven or
can be personally forgiven of sins. That would not be righteous judgment and
that is not what we are doing. We absolutely should be judging whether or not
someone is fit to lead the country, OUR country. That's called
participatory democracy, not judgment.
What about the parts of the Bible where prophets such as Isaiah called upon
wicked political leaders to repent? Or when Abinadi called upon Noah to repent
at the cost of his life in the Book of Mormon? How about Jesus calling upon the
leaders of His time to repent? Or more recently, Brigham Young condemning the
national political leaders of his day? The scriptures and our church history are
FULL of precedent for us to call our leaders out on their wickedness. We
are supposed to stand for truth and righteousness, not "wait and see what
happens." Article of Faith 13 says "We believe in being HONEST, TRUE,
chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in DOING GOOD TO ALL MEN; indeed, we may say
that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all
things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.
If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we
seek after these things."I am one Latter-day Saint who is going to
continue to "Judge" Donald Trump.
I'm sure those commentators supporting Trump NEVER criticized or judged
Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama!Jokes aside, we are not judging
whether or not Trump is a good man who deserves salvation. I'll leave that
to God.But when someone is a public figure, especially a
president-elect, they can expect to be judged on their words and their actions.
We would be foolish not to judge our leaders. Au contraire, we are expected to
be informed about what our leaders do and say, so we can choose good leaders.Yes, Trump isn't president yet. But he has given us more than
enough material via his 6 a.m. Twitter storms to judge him. Unfortunately, going
after Meryl Streep and a civil rights icon like John Lewis has done nothing to
convince me that he has changed his tune and will become the inclusive,
thoughtful, empathetic candidate this country needs.
Give me a break. When Obama was president, I heard a multitude of Mormons
criticize him as unfit for president, blah, blah, blah. Yeah - they were
judging him. But now that we have a Republican, that same Mormon multitude is
telling us that we shouldn't judge - that we should respect the office of
the President of the United States. Sorry, but I'll take 8 more years of
Obama over 8 minutes of Trump.
The writer of this article is right on. I am comforted that their are so many
perfect people who have commented on this letter. So many will be translated and
not need to deal with all us sinners. I pray for America I pray for our
president elect Trump and I pray for help for my self to over come my
weaknesses. I am grateful I have family and friends that are not so judgmental
of me. God Bless our New President and God bless the USA.
Ren_C.: '"...self-righteous people are quick to see evil in others and
slow to apologize or acknowledge that sometimes they are wrong." Am I the
only one that thinks this describes the President-Elect to a T?'You are not the only one, and not all of them are on the left either.But there are a lot of us who believe that it equally describes President
Obama to a T as well.
@Sportsfan123 - Salt lake, UTThis article is about Mormons judging
Trump. Why do you keep posting about the Clintons? They are not the subject
of this article.You don't have to like the Clintons or be a
democrat to judge Trump as an amoral person. The Clinton's morality has
nothing to do with judging Trump's morality. The two are mutually
exclusive.You are falling into a trap sir. It is the trap that help
to get this guy elected vs a Marco Rubio. That is what you should be concerned
about. Not the Clintons.
" . . . . Romney did not apologize, even though Trump was magnanimous and
gave him repeated opportunities to do so."______________________________I see nothing magnanimous or gracious in
Trump’s self-aggrandizing handling of that. He needed Romney on board to
give his Administration a credibility it sorely needs. His asking price was to
coerce Romney into a public humiliation of having been brought to heel by one
mightier than he. Trump's motive was personally avenging of his own bruised
ego.Romney didn't owe that to Trump to win a condescending
pardon for saying things about Trump that needed to be said. If only the voting
public had heeded the warnings Romney gave which may yet be proven to have been
Mr. CallI wholeheartedly disagree with you. While Mr. Trump's
statements captured 10 years ago were in the past, I would argue that many of
his more recent actions and statements suggest not much has changed.When I received the Holy Spirit I also received the ability discern good and
evil. I don't see much good in Trump. He has been consumed all of his
life with enriching himself. He attempts to look good through the creation of
"charitable" organizations don't bear real fruit.Sorry
sir, nice try, but no.
The highly emotional and divisive race for the presidency is over. The lives
of the two candidates have been savaged by individuals and by media. Like it
or not, we will on Friday have a new national leader. We are at the end of
eight years of a presidency that was also divisive to many, and we are still a
great nation. Can we not now celebrate the endurance of America, follow the
example of those who are ready to move on, join together where possible, be
willing to step up in defense of our values when appropriate, and to actually
strive to "form a more perfect union?"
I'm not convinced. The Bible actually teaches to "judge ye a righteous
judgement." In other words, don't judge on the appearance, judge on the
content. From my understanding, that's the entire reason Mormons believe
they are on earth. To make choices and judgement. Sure, no one is perfect and
everyone does some really bad things and some good things (even Hillary), but to
advocate for us to not judge the actions of the President is irresponsible,
naive, and even unpatriotic.
"It seems ironic that many Mormons who are proud of their church’s
strong support for the traditional family cannot find anything good to say about
Donald Trump."That's funny. I didn't realize this
column was satire until I got to this line.
What strikes me curiously is that, as many faults as Trump has that get pointed
out by members of the Church, Hillary Clinton exceeds him in every way. Every
way. He's also superior to our last president by a longshot. He's
not an ideal choice, but it's worth having some hope and faith. To put it
cynically, he -may- destroy the nation, but the only viable alternative would
continue to do it with certainty. And if he does do it, at least he will be
more chaotic and entertaining about it, instead of simply furthering socially
destructive policies.To note, however; I don't think Br. Romney
was ever getting the Secretary of State slot. One such fault of Trump's
seems to be a propensity for punishing detractors. I think he was dangling him
on a line that, despite his actions, would not lead to the appointment.
Brother Roy,"Free agency" is what professional sports players
have. "Consious" means awareness or not comatose. We're not talking
sports or medicine. We are have agency or power to act based on the
dictates of our conscience. That does not start or end with an election. I did
not, could not vote for Trump because I saw him as an enemy of exercise agency
and conscience. I still do. I will continue to oppose him until he leaves
office. That's my vote.
There is a simple solution for this situation. Remember one has their free
agency and all were instructed to "vote your conscious." Now apply it.
Mr. Call is very clearly a Trump supporter. We all want others to stop
criticizing those we support. Mitt told the truth. You may not like it, but he
told the truth. Let's stop the charade then that this has
anything to do with judging and our Constitutional right to criticize those
running for and holding office. I think you're also mixing
'judgment' with 'evaluation'. We're not here to say
whether Trump is worthy of salvation, but rather does he have the right
character to be our President. We've been evaluating that in our candidates
since the dawn of our country.
Is it judgmental to describe Trump's behavior during the campaign and
afterwards as very poor? It certainly is judgmental. Why is it wise to judge
and support our leaders, or judge and reject them? Read the Book of Mormon and
you will learn about supporting or rejecting (judging) good or bad leaders.Trump has insulted others, he used offensively suggestive language
during the campaign. He has disregarded the US intelligence agencies and
community. He has flippantly joked about using nuclear weapons. He has
disregarded the US Constitution and balance of powers when threatening to slap
businesses with heavy taxes and penalties. He is disrespectful to others. He
has been dishonest.Need I go on? He has demonstrated very poor
behavior, and I haven't even mentioned his past indiscretions regarding
women and his sexual misconduct.None of us are perfect. And yet, we
must judge and select good leaders. I have expectations for our president that
Trump is falling far short of. I did not vote for him because I do not trust
him (I voted 3rd party). This is a judgment that every American was asked to
make when voting.
How did this piece ever make it past the editors? Where is the insightful
perspective that op-eds are expected to have? It completely ignores the gigantic
elephant in the room, Trump's enormous and ongoing record of egregiously
anti-gospel behavior, and says those who rationalized this away to achieve
political aims are the true Christians, and those who sound the warning voice
have need to repent? Talk about turning the world upside down. No, friend,
Mormons are not being seen as judgemental. They are seen as sane and true to
the act of voting is a judgement--we evaluate politicans based on the results
and consequences of their policies and votes all the time. We vote them in and
vote them out--it isn't personal, it's politics and politicians can
handle it. The political arena is a messy public struggle--why should Mormons
have to pretty it up and make everything into our Mormon passive aggressive
smiley way of avoiding conflict? We can face conflict and differences with
openness and confidence--and by engaging in this honest relationship with ideas,
people and power we may actually grow and change ourselves along with the other
humans involved in our politics.
"It's about time someone called them out for all their Trump
bashing."This quote should be nominated for "irony of the
year" award. For years now we have endured endless complaining nearly daily
about the current administration. And yet now, those who didn't vote for
Trump are supposed to not do as the complainers did, for we all have endured
endless tantrums about the preceeding two elections, but are to sit quietly by
the side, and ignore the polls, the tweets, the comments, etc. I
don't think that one justifies the other, I hate excuses of "the other
side did it first", but really? You just really don't have to go back
very far to find post from the now Trump defenders doing exactly what they are
now telling others they should not do.For better or worse, I can
guarantee Trump will get every bit the benefit of doubt that Obama and his
adminstration did. Complaining about it bounces between hypocritical and
ironic.Double standards are just as sad as all the whining is.
fight4liberty - Herriman, UT.."Had Ms Streep and Congressman Lewis not made
their comments in public FIRST, there would have NOT been a Trump comment to
them. No one cares that he responded to them. What we care about is
the disrespectful way as the President elect he responded. To degrade the craft
of the finest actor of our time is cheap, senseless, and childish. To say that the man who was beaten on the bridge in Selma is all talk and no
action..sad, is pitiful and childish. I heard Mike Pence this
evening give a classy and respectful response to Congressman Lewis, crediting
him for his selfless work for civil rights yet respectfully disagreeing with his
statement about Trump and the election. I would probably disagree
with almost all of Mike Pence's political positions but I have no problem
crediting with a gentlemen's response to what was an irritating situation
for him. Trump on the other hand was classless, and disrespectful in the very
same circumstance. One has character, one has selfish ego. Which do you think
First of all let me say this was one of the best posts I have read in an entire
year! As an active LDS I believe most LDS actually are forgiving and humble
people however we are human and we all need the Atonement daily. We are short
sighted -- we speak without thinking -- we don't do our homework on
important matters -- we react intead of thinking -- and the list goes on. We are
all guilty of these things including myself the worst offender. We do them to
our spouse, our kids, our siblings and we do them in public regarding political
matters. The general authorities don't take a poltical side but only ask
members to be informed and armed with truth. Truth is hard to find these days
unless you first WANT to find it and second you seek it with purpose and honesty
of heart not being afraid of what you may find. Mitt Romney was a bad actor in
2016 no question but I think with his meeting President Elect Trump he did show
some contrition. Glenn Beck went off the rails and I think regrets it now. When
a person "tries" to improve we should all forgive and show patience
after all aren't we all in the same boat? Trump has improved ALOT! Give the
man a chance.
@say noWhy bring up the wall? Well maybe because Trump recently stated he
wants US taxpayers to pay for it. Please stop acting like Trump has not been out
there pushing his policy ideas and making decisions about his administration
that will affect us all. Claiming that we have to actually wait until there is
some formal legislation to debate the merits of stated agendas of our
politicians is not a very convincing argument.
Read comments by airnaut (AKA Open Minded Mormon ) 1:02 p.m. and 1:37 p.m.If that's not judging Trump, and vilifying him based on your
judgments... I don't know what is. Maybe this letter was for people like
him?I judged Trump too (during the election). That's how I
decided not to vote for him. But I won't vilify him in judgmental comments
It's about time someone called them out for all their Trump bashing.Even the polls are calculated to bring out the critics. The other day
they ran a poll about the wall. Why? Nothing has changed. There is no new
legislation in Congress. It was like, "What can we do to keep the anti-Trump
people energized?"I get it. Trump surprised a lot of people with
his victory. They don't want to let go. But the orderly transition of
power is a bedrock trait of our nation. These tantrums are embarrassing.
Evoking the Savior and Trump in the same justification..... makes one really
It cannot seriously be stated that he has never flip-flopped on anything, but I
say good for MItt Romney for not flip-flopping on this the way so many other
politicians have done.
"A savior to the undereducated, a devil wise." Get wise
people! The devil has many faces and his sound is charming.
"...self-righteous people are quick to see evil in others and slow to
apologize or acknowledge that sometimes they are wrong."Am I the
only one that thinks this describes the President-Elect to a T?
RE: " Mormons should stop judging President-elect Trump"Really? Mormons can do that, huh?It is difficult for many of us
to just ignore our own values and our own morality, and feel kindness toward
the most prolific liar, cheat, and thief to ever run for the Presidency.It is difficult for many of us to ignore all sense of decency, and feel
empathy for a serial sexual predator who loves to brag about his exploits.It is impossible for any true patriot to stomach this Putin puppet who
asked for and received help from our nation's number one geopolitical foe,
colluding with our enemies to win the election and become the only illegitimate
President-elect in the history of our nation.Some Americans find it
easy to abandon all decency and slum with Trump.I cannot do
that.But then again . . . I am not a Mormon.
Topis is not "judging" Donald Trump,The same Donald Trump who has
not only "judged", but condemned:Hispanics, Islam, Blacks, Chinese, Women, college Students, Veterans,the disabled, the press, Broadway actors, Movie actresses,
Arnold Schwarzenegger, Mitt Romney, Democrats, Republicans, The CIA, the FBI, the NSA, Saturday Night Live, The New York Times, CNN, BuzzFeed, ...the list is never
ending!However:The ONLY person, place or thing sacred enough
to avoid the wrath of Donald J. Trump -- to Never EVER be criticized in any
way?Vladimir Putin and Russia!It does not take the CIA
or MI6 to see what is happening here -- any good Mommy or Daddy with a
spoiled little brat knows full when someone is lying , hiding, or covering for
I'm happy to focus on the good in others, when they demonstrate good. As
most normal people do. Even many people who start out as troubled will mature
and go onto become normal, productive members of society. Trump is
not normal. He's an utter madman, who has gone through life bullying others
at every step. Those who have known him the closest say the same. His brother
stated, "Donald was the kid you didn't want at the birthday party,
because he was the one who threw the cake across the room."To
govern successfully, one must recognize others, respect others, and work to find
solutions going forward. Donald Trump has no interest in governing. He's
in it for his own ego. He's had 71 years worth of chances to do good and
has failed every time. Now we have to give him four years as the most powerful
person on earth? No. He's not my president and I and millions of others
will resist his morally bankrupt, misogynist ways in all ways possible, as
allowed by our constitution and democratic principles. To do any thing less is
to condone all of the immorality this monster stands for. America deserves
@fight4liberty - Herriman, UTI thake from you statement " Ms
Streep and Congressman Lewis not made their comments in public FIRST, there
would have NOT been a Trump comment to them. " That we should all keep our
mouths shut, that we shouldn't stand up for what is right.I am
sorry but when Pres Elect stops criticizing past Presidents and foreign leaders
may be then I will take your advice.As a colleague of mine said 4
months ago is Clinton and Trump the best we have to offer. So I would say most
voters elected against either Clinton or Trump on party lines only.As I said yesterday we will see the Judgement of the people in 2 years at the
half term elections. I think the GOP are hoping that the Tweeting stops other
wise he will be a lame duck.
Unfortunately, due to 100 years of coddling and getting along with "Liberal
Progressives", our Nation and indeed the World is on fire and our Republic
is hanging by a thread.Oh, the Republicans have gone along with all
of it as well. Our liberties and Western Civilization herself has been chipped
away at, line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a
little..And now?Now it's time for a brash street fighter.
As diplomacy and Mr. Nice Guy's won't do, anymore.Sorry Mitt.People are just fed up, they've had their fill of politicians
breaking their promises.D's and R's, they are all guilty.Trump, with the Republicans in control of both houses, are the right
men/women for this time. They have a very short window, they had better not mess
it up.I did not vote for him, but I can now see that he, along with
a Republican controlled House and Senate, are the ones to roll back the damage
the progressives have done to this World.Look no further than the
collective tantrums which those on the left are having.It's time to
push them aside and Trump will do it."Elections have
I will try to stop judging Mr Trump. I will try to pray for him sincerely. One
thing I cannot do, however, is trust him, so don't ask me too.
@pragmatistferlife - salt lake city, utahJan. 16, 2017 1:49 p.m.Had Ms Streep and Congressman Lewis not made their comments in public FIRST,
there would have NOT been a Trump comment to them. Their comments
were as out of line as Trumps.You shouldn't throw stones if you
live in a glass house!Trumps impulsive tweets and lack of
professional orator skills, is definitely not his best attributes.Let his first 100 days after taking office speak for him!
Fight 4 Liberty,I believe you misunderstood my comment. Neither
Sportsfan nor I was relying on Access Hollywood. Access Hollywood was, however,
the source of the tape in which President Elect Trump made his degrading
comments about assaulting women. My point was that while those
comments were horrific, they were not the basis for Mitt Romney calling Mr.
Trump a fraud. Mr. Romney's comments came months before the tape was
@Happy Valley Heretic,You have the right to say anything that you
want to say. I stand with my statement: "Judging comes too easily to those
who, like those who stacked their stones and demanded that Christ agree with
them that they kill the woman, have decided that they are judge, jury and
@2 bits, Freudian Slip there?"The Left vilifies people just as
much as Mormons do..." Implying someone on the left can't
possibly be Mormon.Talk about prejudice or judging.Mike
Richards said: "As far as I've read, those who cast aspersions on Trump
are using Hillary and her friends as their source."You could be
more wrong, and often are. Most people comment on what Trump said, either
in one of his childish angry rant tweets, or video of him acting like a child.
Hillary has nothing to do with how most people view your dear
leader, we have eyes to see and ears to hear, when you try and spin his
arrogant, vile, hate filled tweets, it shows that some folks have adjustable
morals, to fit their party first, and can pick up their religious morals as they
enter their church.
Is it not hypocritcal to say that Trump should respect his distractors, when the
distractors threw the first punch?How about..I respect Ms. Streep as
an actress, she has done fine work I've enjoyed, but she should stick to
acting. I hope I earn her respect as her President.Instead of
"Meryl Streep, one of the most over-rated actresses in Hollywood,
doesn't know me but attacked last night at the Golden Globes. She is
a....."How about..Congressman Lewis has done a great service to
America and American civil rights, but the election is over and there is no
evidence Russia or anyone else changed the eledction.Instead
of.."Congressman John Lewis should finally focus on the burning and crime
infested inner-cities of the U.S. I can use all the help I can get!"See the difference...I hope.
Judging comes too easily to those who, like those who stacked their stones and
demanded that Christ agree with them that they kill the woman, have decided that
they are judge, jury and executioner. Their actions have pre-ordained their own
judgement. If Christ is anything, he is honest. He told us that we would be
judged by the same judgement that we use. He also told us that he looks upon
the heart of an individual. As far as I've read, those who cast aspersions
on Trump are using Hillary and her friends as their source. It seems that they
would condemn someone based on the testimony of a source who has never been
accused of telling the truth.
Of course we have to judge to vote. The letter writer needs to get a little
real. You can't vote without judging.What needs to go is the
vilifying people. The Left vilifies people just as much as Mormons do... Read
the posts below. If the political blather based on partisan judgementalism from
people like airnaut, is not judgmental, I don't know what is.We
have to judge, that's part of life and making decisions. We don't
have to vilify people based our our judgments of them (like airnaut does daily).
Oh... there I go judging him. But he really does seem to like to vilify
people who disagree with him, or vote for the wrong people, or fail to attack
the people he thinks need attacking.
Betting odds in London and Las Vegas right now have Donald Trump being impeached
or resigning within the first 2 years -- at 50/50.
I don't recall hearing from this writer when President Obama was being so
harshly judged by my fellow LDS. I have heard with my own ears
unbelievable nastiness from my co-religionists for the last 8 years, including
comments about Obama's being "the missing link" and his wife being
the child of a gorilla. Of course, the ultimate irony is this
writer's jaw-dropping tribute to that great "family man, Donald
Trump." Irony is totally lost on certain people. But irony
happens. After 65 years of living in Utah, I'm used to it.
We should not be judgmental towards a man who judges, condemns, threatens, mocks
or ridicules every critic he encounters? That is precious. I guess we should
take the high road and rise above Trump's vitriol, and give him a free pass
by not saying anything bad about him. After all, he is the president-elect, and
just the respectable office of the presidency should protect him from us, the
little people, judging his character.
@JoeCapitalist2 "Now all the leftists want to claim that Hillary was the
perfect choice ..."Are you kidding me? We leftists were getting
ready to go after Hillary thinking she would be elected. Hillary Clinton would
have had about a 30 second "honeymoon" with us.
@strachan - Bountiful, UTJan. 16, 2017 11:21 a.m.Your response
to: @SportsFan"You seem to think people are judging Mr. Trump
primarily because of the Access Hollywood tape. "This is a great
example of how fake news is propagated. Absolutely how did you gleen from his
thread that he got his information from Access Hollywood? Obviously you get
your news there. It shows how much people spin other peoples
thoughts to achieve a particular agenda. AKA fake news!
You know -- If Donald Trump had put behind him is NASTY disposition
toward all mankind, and become a Christian - as he claims... [the mighty
change Alma talks about] I could forgive him in a heartbeat. The problem is - with all the rhetoric, the lack of remorse, the persistent PRIDE, he comes across as very Devil himself. As for Judgment? If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and swims
like a duck... FYI -- The LDS 1st Presidency issued this:
"Principles compatible with the gospel may be found in various political
parties, and members should seek candidates who best embody those
principles." Rationalize all you want, but Donald J.
Trump does NOT embody any of those principles!
I think we should judge our elected officials all the time. They are not perfect
and we should not expect them to be, but if they exhibit immoral behavior we
should be willing to call them on it. No one should get a pass for bad behavior
in their private or their public life just because we like their political
leanings.Trump was an obvious flawed candidate in the election, but
so was Hillary. Now all the leftists want to claim that Hillary was the perfect
choice and the only reason people voted for Trump was because he had an R by his
name. They want to pretend that everyone who voted for him did not have any
qualms about his bad behavior.I was very hesitant to vote for Trump.
If the Democrats had nominated someone who was not worse, I probably would have
voted for them instead. But I picked what I thought was the least worst
candidate and hope that things will work out okay.I don't mind
judgmental people as much as I mind selectively judgmental people. If you slam
Trump for something you gave Bill Clinton a complete pass for, your accusations
@pragmatistferlife"Yes let's stop judging Trump. Let's
follow Trump's own example of how graceful he was to all of his detractors.
So generous to Meryl Streep. Kind words for CNN, and the NYT, and the special
respect for Congressman Lewis. Or we could go back to the campaign and follow
the grace he showed all of the Republican candidates. Grace begets grace
and disrespect earns disrespect."Is it not hypocritcal to say
that Trump should respect his distractors, when the distractors threw the first
punch?Trump has right to defend himself.The problem would not
exist if ALL people would quit falling for identity, hate and fear politics,
which too people in this country thrive on.
I will judge the man based on what he says and on what does. So far, I can only
conclude that he is the most contemptible person ever to be elected President.
Nice article, and great points. I actually don't care much how negative
judgment, Mormons or non Mormon, make about Trump. Aside from their efforts
being a giant waste of time, these persons for the most part, demonstrate their
hypocrisy, and inability to tell the full truth. Also their hate, rage, and
jealous disposition about someone with wealth, like Trump. Most of this
continued whining is just foolishness that is more silly then serious."If Trump were a member of the LDS church who had said and done the things
he has done, would he be facing possible excommunication?"They
don't come much sleazier then Harry Reid, and as long as he isn't
facing church discipline, I'm not going to get worked up over this theory,
and I don't see why anybody else would.We can go on all day
with these examples and accusations, and both sides could make them. I want to
see the Trump haters, explain hilary and bubba, along with uma and dirtbag
husband, all the other "gems" in the proposed mrs. bill regime. Why
isn't your disdain and angst just as kindled with this crowd as Trump? Come
on, show us all how to be equally judgmental.
I am blown away by this piece. We aren't supposed to judge our politics
candidates, the people we entrust to act in our name? Those who will represent
what it means to be an "American", what American values are? We are
supposed to ignore not what others have said about Trump, but what Trump he
himself has said about himself?I agree, judging others normally is
wrong. But when I hire an employee, I make judgements about that person and
their ability to represent my companies brand. Likewise when I vote for
someone, I am "judging" their ability to represent those they
represent.Not judge Trump? Really? Blown away. Trump is
representing me, my country, and our collective values. To try to divorce
ourselves from that reality seems delusional at best - and yes - that is yet
I am seriously amazed by the hypocritical diatribes. You hate Trump for his
tweets? All that there is to read on these threads, is hate, inaccuracies, the
same vitriol that comes out on Trumps tweets. Whats the difference?Trump the "imperfect man" like all the last presidents, won the
election. So why are you not waiting until he actually takes office for 100
days to fillet him in public? You might have something to actually skewer him
over. As is obviously the whole intent here. There is a lot of premature hate
and fear mongering going on here.Like all Presidents, they have to
make their own history.
“...Having a form of godliness, but denying the power
”Mormon judgmentalness is but one symptom of an
underlying, systemic disease: a definition of righteousness which (2 Timothy
3:5) denies the power of the Christian Gospel and effectively replaces it with a
Pharisaic, Legalism Theology. The anti-Trump message being promulgated loudly
and prominently from Utah to all the world, actually is an anti-Christ message.
In essence, it is that the power of the Cross of Christ ultimately is of zero
efficacy to redeem and to justify in the matter of a comment made on a bus
eleven years ago, notwithstanding Trump’s professed faith in Christ and
much good fruit meet for repentance, including an honorable marriage to wife
Melania and a dedicated fatherhood to five, sterling children. By
logical extension, an accompanying message, however subliminal, inevitably is
being registered in the subconscious minds of men, women and children
everywhere. It is that if Donald Trump is irredeemable, then no one is
redeemable.No wonder many are finding it difficult to believe in
Christ, sufficient unto salvation. And no, Romney was NOT right
To "Michel L. Call" you don't seem to understand the LDS church.
First, the LDS church teaches not to judge unrighteous judgments. For example,
if a person moves into the neighborhood who is flagged on the Sex Offender
registry for abusing multiple children, we won't think twice before warning
our kids about the offender.Next, why shouldn't we be cautious
about a person with his marriage track record, and for the statements he has
made?I am trying to figure out which Mormons couldn't vote.
The only ones that couldn't vote are felons, here illegally, dead, or lazy
enough to not have registered to vote.Jan Chamberlin is not a good
example because she was never being "forced" to perform. The Choir was
only taking volunteers. She didn't have to volunteer. The Choir will
follow the instructions given to them by the LDS leaders. That means while some
people may not like Trump, he is not like Hitler and that the Choir will honor
the office of POTUS (not the person) by performing. If Trump was like how his
critics claim, there is no doubt that the choir would not perform.
@SportsFanYou seem to think people are judging Mr. Trump primarily
because of the Access Hollywood tape. That tape was certainly awful, but Mitt
Romney called him a fraud months before the tape became public. President Elect
Trump's actions are plenty to judge him by: Trump University engaged in
fraudulent activity. Mr. Trump used the threat of litigation to avoid payment of
legitimate debts. Mr. Trump ridiculed a disabled reporter. I did
not vote for Bill Clinton either time, and I do not condone his infidelity. My
guess is that you felt President Clinton should have been removed from office
for his behavior. Why are you willing to accept the same behavior from Mr.
Trump really is easy to despise, and living in Utah and passing judgement on him
as a person and a politician in the publics view is hard not to do.This article hits a nerve with most Utahns because like what most of these
post's are saying we judge the character and the person to whom wishes to
be our commander in chief. Now that Trump is the pres. elect its a moot point to
continue is the whole piont of this article complain and judge all we want it
wont change anything.Mormons would still be complaining about
Hillary had she won, she would have been Oblama #2 majority of Utahns did not
like Oblama.@ft - salt lakeTrump won Utah, that means
more people voted for Trump in Utah.
I couldn’t disagree more with this opinion column. Of course church
members are judgmental. We are human with human feelings and reactions. When
we see what we believe is wrong doing we are going to make a judgement. We
can’t just shrug our shoulders and move on.If more people emulated
Romney and didn’t subordinate their principles for gain either for
ourselves or for others the world would be far better off.You don’t
have to be especially self-righteous and judgmental to be deeply offended by
Trumps actions – not just comments – towards women.Mormons who
voted for Trump were not being non-judgmental. They just judged that perceived
benefits of a Trump presidency outweighed a checkered past.
@cora smithWhat falsehoods about Hillary are there that were
projected into the media about her and her campaign?Just because she
is a woman doesn't make her a prestine candidate for president.Her email scandal, which tied to Huma Abadin and Anthony Weiner and just about
every politician in D.C. that sent her coorespondence via email was put at risk
because of a very poor decision to have an unprotected server. Is this all lies?
She denied it all during her campaign, then sheepishly admitted it after the FBI
made it public, and you would trust her as president?She let four
Americans die in Benghazi Libya under her watch as secretary of state, then
makes up a bogus story about a anti muslim video posted on the internet claiming
that was the cause of the attack. Later to be confirmed it was a terrorist
attack. And later it came out the internet video was a hoax. Her pay
to play scandal with the Clinton foundation, currently under investigation by
the FBI. She does infact take millions of dollars in donations from
foreign countries that treat women as 3rd class citizens, and you say she is a
beacon for women.She is worse than Trump!
Yes let's stop judging Trump. Let's follow Trump's own example
of how graceful he was to all of his detractors. So generous to Meryl Streep.
Kind words for CNN, and the NYT, and the special respect for Congressman Lewis.
Or we could go back to the campaign and follow the grace he showed all of the
Republican candidates. Grace begets grace and disrespect earns
disrespect. As soon as Trump demonstrates respect he will earn the
right to be respected.
Good grief!Talk about making bad good, and the good bad...When
Jesus Christ told us not to judge others, he was referring to those who
are poor, sick, elderly and then needy.He was NOT referring to the
Egotistical, Narcissistic, Rich, Prideful, Arrogant, Pompous, Demagogues!To the contrary -- He told to ESCPECIALLY be on guard and watch out for
Joe BlowThank you for your post. In my post to this article this morning I
described similar experiences as you described, and noted that trump can be
judged not just from a Mormon perspective but as a person, and that we're
entitled and indeed expected to make those judgements.
How on earth is this a question that should be rejected from this discussion:----If Trump were a member of the LDS church who had said and done the
things he has done, would he be facing possible excommunication?----Isn't that a wholly legitimate question to ask in regard to this op-ed?
Most Mormons I know who detest Trump live real moral lives and are not apt to be
phony for political reasons.Most Mormons I know who are judgemental about
Trump can list real reasons of why they judge him as immoral and lacking decency
concerning his past business dealings.Some moral Mormons I know
didn't like Hilary much either, but understood she was an experienced
person who had spent decades doing work for women and children. Imperfect but no
question about the falsehoods spread about her for decades, they were flat out
lies. The decent and moral Mormons I know could not list any reasons at
all about any positive qualities of Trump. I applaud them for standing up for
I like the judgements made by the DN, Mitt Romney and Jason Chaffetz, prior to
the election...Accurate, honest, heart felt...However...the... we were against him... now we are for him...judgements...Seem... a little...craven.
Could Tom and Jackie be more specific about who is attacking our water rights,
and the specific projects or changes they are proposing?They left it
kinda vague. Just some unidentified minions of the underworld trying to ruin our
water and poison us... But no names, no specific info for us to look into or
fight against.How do we fight them... if we don't even know who
they are, or what they are doing?And BTW.. that's kinda your
job (as Mayor) to fight them. We can't do it. That's why we gave you
the power to do it (by electing you Mayor).We can't change the
ordinances in the canyons. We can't protect the water. That's what we
hired you to do.We can't approve construction projects. We
don't get included in the zoning decisions and approving projects in Sandy,
SLC, or the canyons... you do. Do your job.How can I stop
developers? I can't.We gave YOU that power to stop them.I don't know what you need from us.We can't change
the zoning. We can't change city ordinances. We can't approve/block
projects... that's your job.
"The Latter-day Saint tradition teaches to “judge not.”"When I moved to Salt Lake - I was judged for not being
LDS- I was judged for not being married- I was judged for not
wanting to join the LDS church- I was judged for being a social drinker- I was judged for mowing my lawn on Sunday- I was judged for playing
golf on SundayI guess I must have found a lot of
"non-traditional" Saints.The people I met were typically
nice and decent people but non-judgmental they were not.
You all have to ask yourselves this.Are ones actions worse then
their words said?All of you liberals and Trump haters seem to have
accepted the transgressions of B. Clinton, cigar anyone? Granted Clinton is in
the past but since he represented Hillary on the campaign trail what makes him
any different than Trump. Only that he actually acts on his cumpulsions, actions
speak louder than words. So far Trump is vulgar in speach not in his actions,
yet. Trump atleast deserves the time in office to commit the vulgar
acts for which he is accused of, we all let B.Clinton do it.This is
the true mindset of the American people. We roast them in the media when they
say something uncomely, but if they actually do it its brushed under the rug. As
if Hillary is any different than the Donald they are two peas in a pod and they
both lack a moral compass.
How should Mormons decide who to vote for without judging them? That's
silly.Political campaigns are 100% about judging the candidates.
Anyone who launches a political campaign is asking/begging people to
consider/judge whether they are qualified.Political campaigns
REQUIRE judging. People campaigning for office know and expect they are being
judged (even by Mormon voters).Why would you expect Mormon voters to
vote without judging the candidates?This is what political campaigns
are all about! The candidate puts information about themselves out there (as
much as possible, as positive as possible) so people will judge them... and
decide to give them their vote.Expecting Mormons to not participate,
and just vote without judging candidates... is absurd.We SHOULD
judge the candidates. We should look into them carefully (kinda the definition
of "judging").This includes their moral character (if you
think moral character is a qualification for the office you are voting on). I
think integrity is critical for President. The reason I decided I couldn't
vote for Clinton or Trump.And yes... that was judging them.
The only difference between a guy like Trump compared to the likes of JFK, B.
Clinton is the fact Trump has no filter, he is not a polished politician he says
what is on his mind and obviously to a fault. So what you see is what you get
with Trump like him or hate him he calls it like it is.That said, he
will be no different than other presidents when it comes to having poor personal
decisions. JFK and Marilyn Monroe, B Clinton and the infamous cigar and Monica
lewinsky and dont forget that B Clinton was impeached by the House only to be
pardoned by the Senate over that. So far other than vulgar words what has Trump
done as president that is any different than presidents before him? They are all
flawed men none are perfect its time for America to stop acting self righteous
regarding Trumps comments when we clearly accept the transgressions of
presidents in the past.The fact Hillary and Trump were selected as
the most popular candidates to run for president is a direct reflection on all
of the U.S. citizens they probably are the two worst people to run for the oval
office and we are to blame for that.I made my bed its time to sleep
"Mitt Romney’s withering personal attack last March crossed a line in
the eyes of Trump’s advisors and supporters that made Romney unacceptable
as the nominee for secretary of state unless he could sincerely apologize both
privately and publicly."But Romney told the TRUTH about Trump.
And what he said needed to be said, and needs to be said now, because our very
lives are at stake.
This well-thought-out piece is telling us not to judge his actions and words?
Seriously?In the future, he will continue to be vulgar and callous
in thought, word, and deed, but don't judge that either.He's just a poor soul, struggling to make ends meet, confronting the
vagaries of the universe with so little at his disposal. Don't judge him,
he's had a hard life.
I'm sorry, but I cannot agree. Trump has a sordid history, which is well
documented. I've seen nothing where he has expressed regret or tried to
make things right. The fact that he appears to have a good family (now on his
3rd wife, and he admittedly cheated on all three) is not compelling. Lots of
people in history have had what appear to be a good family, but in most things
they pursue evil endeavors. I have seen nothing that persuades me that Trump is
anything different. If it was mere rumors and Internet gossip, maybe he would
get the benefit of the doubt. But almost everything has come from his own
mouth, by his observed actions, or have been investigated. Read David
Fahrenthold's story in the 1/8/2017 edition of the Washington Post
As has been pointed out, the irony of Mr. Call's opinion piece is rich. He
berates many thoughtful and good LDS members for their opinions while seeming to
turn a blind eye toward the many failings of our incoming President. Mr. Trump's position does not immunize him from legitimate criticism.
His words, and more importantly his actions, are areas of legitimate review and
criticism. Mr. Call should be ashamed of himself for an opinion piece that is
nothing more than a cheerleading piece for Mr. Trump.Since Mr. Call
based his opinion on a misreading of Christ's words, I would like to remind
him of what Jesus said to his followers, of whom we are now included.Matthew 7: 1-21 Now these are the words which Jesus taught his disciples
that they should say unto the people.2 Judge not unrighteously, that ye be
not judged: but judge righteous judgment.I would state that the LDS
leaders and others who have criticized Mr. Trump have judged him righteously.
It is up to Mr. Trump to humble himself, repent and dedicate his life to the
righteous service of his fellow man. Forgive me if I doubt Mr.
Trump has the ability to do it.
What a classic case of selective indignation, in my experience the virtue of
being non judgemental has never been a priority within the LDS church at any
It is precisely before an election that we must judge a candidate's fitness
for office. When else? Should we simply take each candidate (regardless of
past or party) at their word that they are good folks who will do right by our
country? No.Now that the election has passed it is likely time for
us to stop dredging up what is already well known and try to support the current
president. And yes, I had the same opinion for President Obama. Much of the
vitriol directed at him was simply unacceptable.Regardless of past
or party, once in office, each president deserves the support of the people.
That is not to say there will be agreement on everything. But we can hold our
fire until there is an actual misstep. We can refrain from criticism of the
First Family (the letter of the Bush "girls" to Sasha and Malia was a
lovely gesture). And, if we are religious, we can pray for the current
president.As others have said, wanting him to fail is like wanting
the pilot to crash the plane we are ALL on. It was true with Bush, true with
Obama, and will now be so with Trump.
Re: The Whales Blowhole"But let the man do his job, and
you'll see if your preparation was inspired, or in vain."That is the very problem. From day Nov. 9, he has in no uncertain terms let
the country know what he intends to do in "his job".As for
me, my judgement in not made on what he might or should do, it is made on what
he is telling me, on a daily basis, in a daily tweet, exactley what he intends
to do.My judgement is being made on a person who is not going to be
a neighbor, fellow parishner or ward member, not a co-worker or even casual
aquaintance, but he is going to be the leader of my country, with the power to
affect my life in significant ways.IMO, I and millions of others are
judging Trump by the evidence we have been presented by the "Judged"
himself, and if I might quote him, "it is SAD, Sad!"
It is time to put up or shut up for Trump, but we did not take his vulgarity
seriously and we understood that when a liar speaks such as the main stream
media it is hard to tell when he is telling the truth. So many of the
allegations against Trump are not true. He is not a racist, I do not think he
is going to destroy the LGBTQ community, but he is going to improve our economy,
our health care, our education and many other things. He is going to do so well
that left wingers have very good reasons to protest him because in 2 years there
is going to be a landslide of Republican winners.
Lets be honest. All those Mormons and Christians did not vote for Trump as much
as they voted against Hillary. In fact, more people in Utah voted against
Trump than voted for him. He won but unless one wants to be complicit to his
activities and policies the next 4 years they should stay engaged, loud and
Perhaps it's time for us all to move on, and follow the example of
Representative Chaffetz, who just announced he won't investigate the
numerous conflicts of interest Trump has involving his business interests and
his role as President, even though the law requires these conflicts of interest
to be resolved.
I've noticed one of our cultural foibles as Mormons is that when our
questionable views or actions are cornered, we throw out the "stop
judging" card in desperate passive-aggression. This piece is a remarkably
clear demonstration of that.The JST version of the Sermon on the
Mount modifies things: “judge not unrighteously,
righteous judgment." What in Trump's behavior can one label as
"righteous"?This piece remarkably excludes the numerous
reasons why many Mormons judge Trump negatively. Every day (or every tweet)
brings additional evidence to support my judgment of Trump's character as
entirely inconsistent with my religious values. And I will not be shamed by Mr.
Call or anyone else into abandoning those values for political expediency as so
many others have.
"That is what Jesus would do."I disagree. Jesus stood up
for the downtrodden and outcast -- from the tax collectors to the lepers to
prostitutes. He questioned the pious Pharisees to expose their hypocrisies for
obedience to 'rules' at the expense of what was right and just (think
how Jesus healed people on the Sabbath to the Pharisees' scorn).Today, Trump is the Pharisee. Time and again, Trump has ridiculed and
attacked others -- many of whom represent groups less fortunate than he, from
women to ethic minorities to Muslims. He questioned the legitimacy of President
Obama's birth certificate and his presidency and openly bragged about his
abuse of women that he was able to do because of his celebrity status and
wealth. Now, he'll be able to continue his crudeness and
crassness because he is commander-in-chief.No, Jesus would not
support Pharisee Trump. He would openly expose his hypocrisies and work to aid
and comfort the oppressed.
"These evangelicals were able to look beyond Trump’s playboy past to
see the huge long-range impact they believed his policies and Supreme Court
appointments would have in restoring traditional family values, religious
freedom and state’s rights, all of which they believed to be under siege
by an encroaching federal government."Oh Please. If only it was
that well thought out.They "looked beyond Trump's playboy
past" in the election because he had an "R" by his name.
Hear hear. Good point. I noticed that too. But I was thinking why would they go
in that direction. I have my own thoughts on that.
Mitt Romney had nothing to apologize for. He told the truth about Donald
Trump.Mr. Call's letter is rich with irony, of course. He
judges Mr. Romney and Jan Chamberlain for expressing their views about the
It's time to move forward.Trump was definitely not my guy, and
I was proudly "Never Trump" during the primary and general election.
But this is the hand we've been dealt.Now, I firmly believe
that Trump's feet should be held to the fire. If he goes off the rails
there needs to be a response from the people and their elected officials. There
are many forms that response could take. But it's time to let him do the
job that the people have given him.Some will rant and rave about his
past, unable to move on. Some will point to what they believe to be outside
influences and insist that you brush up on your foreign language skills.
That's totally fine, and if you want to cover your bases, go for it! But let the man do his job, and you'll see if your preparation was
inspired, or in vain.
Agree. There is a time when you have enough evidence that you should no longer
be judgmental. Like this paper, in its call for him to drop out, at some point
you have enough evidence to stand by your convictions (same root word as