NCAA ruling in Carolina could tie to BYU

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  • junkgeek Agua Dulce, TX
    Sept. 16, 2016 1:05 p.m.

    Allowing a sports program access to a coalition of schools and its money is NOT a religious freedom issue.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Sept. 15, 2016 12:21 p.m.

    @brucec --

    ""In more than half of all US states, LGBTs can still be fired, thrown out of their homes, and denied basic services just for being LGBT." There are *already* laws against those things."

    There are no such laws in more than half of all US states. That's my point. And the current NC law actively BANS the passage of any nondiscrimination laws to protect LGBTs anywhere in the state, even if local governments want to pass them.

  • brucec Draper, UT
    Sept. 15, 2016 11:49 a.m.

    "In more than half of all US states, LGBTs can still be fired, thrown out of their homes, and denied basic services just for being LGBT." There are *already* laws against those things.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 15, 2016 11:46 a.m.

    @UtahBruin
    "I am not sure what is wrong with asking people to use the restroom indicative of what gender they were born. Explain to me what is "Odious" about that? "

    Well you're asking a transgender person (particularly those who sufficiently looks like the gender they transitioned to that people assume they are that) to either break the law to use the bathroom that matches the gender they look like or to follow the law and have people thinking they're breaking the law.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Sept. 15, 2016 11:32 a.m.

    @UtahBruin --

    "I am not sure what is wrong with asking people to use the restroom indicative of what gender they were born."

    First, the NC law is about much more than bathroom choice. For one thing, it actively forbids any LGBT nondiscrimination laws anywhere in the state.

    Second, here's one problem with the bathroom-matching- your-birth-certificate provision:

    It actually REQUIRES hairy, muscular trans men to use the women's bathroom.

    Go look at pictures of Aydian Dowling, Buck Angel, and Loren Cameron. These are trans men. They have beards, they have large muscles, they have body hair.

    Do you really want to see them in the women's restroom?

    Likewise, NC's law REQUIRES feminine, long-haired, dress-wearing women to use the men's bathroom.

    Go look at pictures of Laverne Cox, Yasmine Petty, and Andreja Pejic.

    Do you really want to see them in the men's room?

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Sept. 15, 2016 11:26 a.m.

    @brucec --

    "What is the definition of oppression?"

    In more than half of all US states, LGBTs can still be fired, thrown out of their homes, and denied basic services just for being LGBT.

    THAT is oppression. And we haven't even gotten to the questions of anything like SS marriages or school honor codes yet.

  • brucec Draper, UT
    Sept. 15, 2016 11:23 a.m.

    @Contrarius ...and about this analogy of where the beginning and ending of tolerance and oppression cross-sect: when does tolerance "begin" when a young woman desires gender privacy in a public locker room. Who is the oppressor—or the "odious" one in this very real scenario that HB2 considered? Tell us, where does common sense begin and end?

    "Common sense is not so common." —Voltaire.

    My assumption is your position is that everyone do and agree with what I say, or I cry "oppression".

  • brucec Draper, UT
    Sept. 15, 2016 10:54 a.m.

    @Contrarius What is the definition of oppression? Folks who don't agree with another group is oppressing? HB2 (if anyone would actually read it) mentions a whole lot more common sense standard including public showers etc. Is it oppression if one can't choose which shower to use?

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    Sept. 15, 2016 10:30 a.m.

    @BJMoose

    I am not sure what is wrong with asking people to use the restroom indicative of what gender they were born. Explain to me what is "Odious" about that? You suggest that by using the term "Odious" that this law is abominable, repulsive, nauseating, monstrous, etc. Really? Not being able to use the bathroom of your choice is nauseating, really?

    The NCAA fell to the bigotry of the LGBT community and PC standards and this makes you proud?

    There is nothing bigoted about this law at all. Simply use the bathroom with which the gender is indicated on your birth certificate.

    So I am confused, you're in support of the bigotry of the LGBT community, and yet refer to the law makers of North Carolina as bigots.

    Bigot Definition - A person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions. A person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. A person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group.

    I wish more people understood the definition of the word bigot. Nobody said gays or transgender can't use a bathroom. Just use the one with which your birth certificate indicates your born gender.

  • observator east of the snake river, ID
    Sept. 15, 2016 9:55 a.m.

    Oh, our worries...will not get our conference affiliation, our cake, our status (whatever that is) because of our religion, sexual preference, or anything else you want pick? Such first world problems...

    On the other hand, we could be living in areas of the Middle East, central Africa, or North Korea, wondering if/when we might lose our liberty or our lives over the very same things...

    Maybe we could put this all into perspective...

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Sept. 15, 2016 9:10 a.m.

    @Counter Intelligence --

    "LGBT fundamentalists are more intolerant than those they claim to despise"

    Yeah, no.

    There should be no tolerance for oppression.

    Tolerance begins when oppression ends.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 15, 2016 8:17 a.m.

    Tomahawk Red - San Francisco, CA
    "He's an angry, bitter, jealous BYU fan who gets angrier and angrier ...................""

    Yet here you are, A Utah fan, on a story about a school you claim to not care about, accusing other of being bitter and angry.

    The fact that you don't see the irony pretty much sums up the entire "I am tolerant because I hate for all the fashionable reasons" mentality which BYU supporters are rejecting.

    As a homosexual, I get tired of the hate performed in my name also.

    LGBT fundamentalists are more intolerant than those they claim to despise,

  • Jello is Good Washington, DC
    Sept. 15, 2016 7:15 a.m.

    @Bobster - Boise, ID
    Sept. 15, 2016 12:29 a.m.

    "LGBTQ has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with power and control."

    Again Bobster, that is way too broad a brush. Change that to "With some in the LGBTQ community this has nothing to do with..."

  • Jello is Good Washington, DC
    Sept. 15, 2016 7:10 a.m.

    @Captain L - Provo, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 6:24 p.m.

    People need to decide who's side they are on in regards to this issue. Gods side or mans / the ways of the world. God has always maintained the same position on this subject and it won't change, those who want everyone to change their views and be tolerant and loving of others do so and say so without regard to what God says about the issue. BYU which is owned and run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints will always side with the Lord and his position. Who's side are you all on ??"

    -----------
    You were almost there. God does want us to be tolerant and loving of others no matter who they are or what they do. This does not mean we have to be tolerant of their behavior. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

  • Jello is Good Washington, DC
    Sept. 15, 2016 7:06 a.m.

    @lets be mature - Meridian/USA, ID
    Sept. 14, 2016 5:15 p.m.

    "This situation needs more love. If you find yourself hating the people on the other side of the fence, you are wrong, no matter what side you are on."

    Amen. Why don't we all start with ourselves.

  • Jello is Good Washington, DC
    Sept. 15, 2016 7:03 a.m.

    @The Caravan Moves On - Enid, OK
    Sept. 14, 2016 4:29 p.m.

    "The NCAA is bowing to the PC police, just like the Boy Scouts of America did, and shows their own lack of character."

    Bringing up the Boy Scouts of America is a great example. When the BSA changed their rules concerning homosexual leaders as well as boys, most people including most church members felt that was the end of the LDS' affiliation with BSA. However the BSA and LDS church found some middle ground that is legally defensible that allowed the LDS church to continue to support and be affiliated with BSA and not compromise it's principles.

    People, let's stop hating and agree that people have different beliefs, but can still coexist in love and harmony.

  • Jello is Good Washington, DC
    Sept. 15, 2016 6:51 a.m.

    @RockOn - Spanish Fork, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 1:05 p.m.

    "Cowardly presidents will use the NCAA ruling on North Carolina to discriminate against BYU using religiously bigotry and getting PC cover as its excuse. MERITS no longer matter."

    Whoa! Hold on there slim. The Big 12 or it's Presidents have made no comments against BYU and it's position. Let's let them have the chance to decide. BYU's only statement has been that it would not change the principles of the honor code just for inclusion. The Big 12 may ask them to clarify their inclusive position so as to be better understood by others, but they will not ask them to change the principles as they are in line with the churches beliefs.

    This is NOT religious bigotry. It is a business decision. This is just sports. relax.

  • Jello is Good Washington, DC
    Sept. 15, 2016 6:42 a.m.

    @Tomahawk Red - San Francisco, CA
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:07 p.m.

    "BYU fans rant and rave about religious freedom and in the same breath rail against freedom for others to associate only with entities they align with."

    -------

    Very Broad brush you paint with. Try "Some BYU fans". BYU has the right to the honor code. The Big 12 has a right to not invite them because of it.
    --------

    "Wonder how they'd feel if a major LGBTQ group marched up to the BYU president and demanded to represent 1/12th of the school, with full voting power.

    I'll tell you what would happen. An angry mob of BYU students would run them out of town."

    Well, if any group marched on BYU, it would draw interest, but not violence. It would draw the attention of the police who would inform the group that if they did not have a permit, would be trespassing and the law would be followed. As to individuals that wanted to come on campus, it is open to all who obey the law and do not damage or disrespect the institution.

    As to the angry mob running them out of town, we couldn't run against Utah's defense, what makes you think our skills have improved.

  • Jello is Good Washington, DC
    Sept. 15, 2016 6:31 a.m.

    @Frozen Fractals - Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:06 p.m.

    "It's not religion they're taking issue with, it's actions and policies."

    ---------

    What you fail to realize is that action and policy, or commandment, IS religion. Faith without works is dead as the bible said. If the LDS church and it's followers believe something, why would they not act on that belief.

    We believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's all. No more to follow.

    We believe that it is not a sin to have same gender attraction.

    We do believe that any sexual relations outside the confines of marriage (see above) is a sin.

    God will not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance, as the bible says.

    We believe to love the sinner and hate the sin. (And we are all sinners.)

    We believe in the agency for individuals to choose for themselves how they will act.

    We also believe that there are always consequences to your actions, good for good and bad for bad.

    These are simple doctrines that have existed from the beginning of time. The storms may blow, but we will stand on our Rock!

  • Jello is Good Washington, DC
    Sept. 15, 2016 6:08 a.m.

    @Vanceone - Provo, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 11:39 a.m.

    "Disagreeing with the LGBT agenda is the right thing to do. The LGBT is in the process of criminalizing "dissent", and it is right to fight that."

    We need to be cautious in this discussion to not lump everyone of a certain believe or opinion as being behind the actions of all with that opinion. I would change the above to state that "disagreeing with the agenda of some individuals and groups in the LGBT community..." and "Some individuals and groups in the LGBT community are in the process..."

    All Christians are not the same. All Ute fans are not the same. All BYU fans are not the same. All individuals and groups in the LGBT community are also not the same. Careful not to use a broad brush.

  • Bobster Boise, ID
    Sept. 15, 2016 12:29 a.m.

    "The reputation of the church and the University continue to decline with national exposure to our values and beliefs." So the solution is to abandon sports programs at BYU to save the reputation of the church and the university? The whole point of the church and the school, in my opinion, is to expose any and all to our values and beliefs. Politically correct does not mean actually correct. The whole LGBTQ thing is not about sports, getting in the BigXII or changing BYU's honor code. This is about religious freedom in America that supposedly is protected by the US Constitution. If BYU's failure to get into the BigXII is based upon religious belief then all other believers (mostly Christians) better sit up and take notice; you are next. LGBTQ has nothing to do with fairness and everything to do with power and control.

  • Texas Ute Fan Austin, Texas
    Sept. 14, 2016 9:26 p.m.

    The NCAA should stay out of politics. Their job is to facilitate athletic competition between member Universities and colleges. They have no business in politics. I 100% support BYU in this.

  • David Centerville, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:41 p.m.

    Problem with LGBT’s argument is that BYU treats sexual relationships outside of wedlock the same (heterosexual and homosexual)—both practices are discouraged.

    Has our nation gotten to a point that an opposing view must be ‘boycotted’? Calling for diversity and then trying to exclude people that think differently seems hypocritical and intolerant.

  • brucec Draper, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:10 p.m.

    @COUGARSTRONG The BYU sports program dissolved? What, as a token sacrifice to leftism? You don't think the very same forces would come after BYU's academic accreditation unless, as Tomohawk so eloquently stated, "Adhere to mainstream thinking civil decency"? Not exactly a profile of courage.

  • brucec Draper, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:01 p.m.

    @tomohawk red: "Adhere to mainstream thinking civil decency (as defined by who exactly?) -- or continue to operate in isolation." Awfully Joe Stalin of you. Walk on four legs, not on two, or else. Perhaps some re-education camps for all of the unwashed on what civil decency is. Power to the proletariat!

  • Levin Reno, NV
    Sept. 14, 2016 6:28 p.m.

    Tolstoy has it right, as if Levin would disagree with Tolstoy! (Anna Karenina reference, FYI)

    NC HB2 is the evil twin of the "Utah Compromise" that saw the LGBT protections of SLC and expanded that to the whole state, with protections for religious institutions. If the NCAA were consistent on their views, they would have to seriously consider moving those postseason tournaments to Utah, which has tried to do right by all parties.

  • Captain L Provo, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 6:24 p.m.

    You can "stick to your guns", as some have foolishly advocated in this thread, or you can adapt to 21st century America.

    People need to decide who's side they are on in regards to this issue. Gods side or mans / the ways of the world. God has always maintained the same position on this subject and it won't change, those who want everyone to change their views and be tolerant and loving of others do so and say so without regard to what God says about the issue. BYU which is owned and run by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints will always side with the Lord and his position. Who's side are you all on ??
    If sticking to your guns means siding with God then count me in on sticking to my guns.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 5:37 p.m.

    No matter how much you try to make this about bathrooms the NC law goes far beyond the bathroom doors and bars any local laws that extend any protections for LGBT people.

  • lets be mature Meridian/USA, ID
    Sept. 14, 2016 5:15 p.m.

    This situation needs more love. If you find yourself hating the people on the other side of the fence, you are wrong, no matter what side you are on.

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Sept. 14, 2016 4:53 p.m.

    Couple of comments:

    1 - I used to think BYU still had a shot at being invited into the Big 12 after the pro-gay crowd issued their letter. Not anymore. The NCAA caved in, totally, and I don't believe the Big 12 will stand up to the NCAA on this issue....it's like a child standing up to their parent, but in this case, the child is nowhere near as powerful as the child. Calling it now: the BYU will be excluded from the Big 12. It stinks, and certainly shouldn't be that way, but I am confident now it will.

    2 - The bigger, and more important issue, is religious freedom. Will individuals be able to live their lives in accordance with their conscience or not? Right now the pro-gay crowd are attacking institutions (BYU), state laws dealing with homosexuality (almost everywhere) and even financially hampering some individuals (cake makers, wedding photographers, pizza shop owners, etc) but how long will it be before individuals are literally put into jail on trumped-up charges of being 'dangerous' to society simply because they don't believe homosexuality activity is immoral?

    Look around; we are moving in that direction.

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Sept. 14, 2016 4:29 p.m.

    The NCAA is bowing to the PC police, just like the Boy Scouts of America did, and shows their own lack of character.

    However, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and therefore BYU, will "never" change their honor code concerning homosexual behavior.

    No, never.

    And I applaud the LDS church and BYU for that. They know what is right and what is wrong and they are sticking to their guns. If it comes down to, for some reason, eventually being forced to end every single athletic program in the entire university, they will. They won't budge an inch on this issue, and with good reason.

    To the pro-gay side: Why do you try to punish the LDS church? Because of Prop 8? Then why are you not punishing your own fellow Californians who voted FOR Prop 8? This is an entirely valid question.

    It is absolutely amazing to me that people are so confused on this issue. Signs of the times.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Sept. 14, 2016 4:25 p.m.

    And now there's news that the ACC has followed suit and also pulled out of NC.

    @ABQer --

    "only 11% to 27% of cases were both of the twins homosexual"

    Not true.

    Bailey and Pillard (1991): A genetic study of male sexual orientation. Archives of General Psychiatry.
    -- "We found 52 percent of identical twin brothers of gay men also were gay, compared with 22 percent of fraternal twins, compared with 11 percent of genetically unrelated brothers, which is exactly the kind of pattern you would want to see if something genetic were going on."

    Bailey and Pillard (1993): Familial aggregation of female sexual orientation. American Journal of Psychiatry.
    48% of identical twins of homosexual women were likewise homosexual (lesbian), compared with 16% of fraternal twins and 6% of adoptive sisters.

    Also:

    Quarterly Review of Biology, 2012 -- Homosexuality as a Consequence of Epigenetically Canalized Sexual Development.
    -- "Pedigree and twin studies indicate that homosexuality has substantial heritability in both sexes".

    Sander et all (2015): Genome-wide scan demonstrates significant linkage for male sexual orientation. Psychological Medicine.

  • BJMoose Syracuse, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 4:14 p.m.

    Finally the N C A A does something that I approve of. This was the correct decision and I applaud them for standing up to those who voted in and continue to support this odious law. I was also very happy to read today that the AAC (American Athletic Conference) who BYU played many members of in football the last few years including Memphis State, Cincinnati and ECU announced that all neutral site playoff games will be removed from North Carolina including this years AAC football championship that was slated for Charlotte on December 3rd. Again kudos to an organization for standing up for what is right and saying no more to bigotry and discrimination.

  • LevelHeaded Ogden, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 3:41 p.m.

    Goodness, our country is a messed-up place right now.

    The problem is that everyone wants to just point the finger at everyone else. Just look at the comments. Instead, we should in the mirror and try to be part of the solution instead of adding to the problem.

    As a country, we are divided as we've ever been. We talk the talk when it comes to being the greatest country in the world but do we walk the walk? Right now, I don't think we do. We certainly aren't what we claim to be.

    If the Big 12 invites BYU then great, I will enjoy seeing them compete at that level. If the Big 12 says no because BYU doesn't have the same values as the conference then so be it. BYU is not going to change it's stance because the LDS Church isn't going to change it's stance. I think BYU fans are fine with that. I support BYU because it is the school that represents my values, not because it has a good athletics program.

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Sept. 14, 2016 2:48 p.m.

    The bigger issue, that is hopefully not on the horizon, is when will corporations and other universities' graduate schools threaten to stop hiring and accepting BYU graduates unless BYU "modifies" (read "eliminates") its Honor Code. I can see this way down the road. Hopefully, we can get off this road before its too late.

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 2:42 p.m.

    It's funny that when the NCAA issued their ruling against using Native American mascots, BYU fans found it amusing that the University of Utah was under pressure to change.

    Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's a sign of the Apocalypse.

    Expat 1961 from Norway has this nailed - if BYU simply stops discriminating against LGBT students, they'll be able bypass the scrutiny. Disallow all public displays of affection of a sexual nature on campus - and enforce it uniformly - and move toward building individual restrooms, and the problems dissipate.

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 2:18 p.m.

    but seriously...m

    "I say stick to your guns BYU, otherwise you follow the path of liberalism and money like another Utah school did a few years ago.
    In the end right will win out and liberal schools, including one in our once great state, and the LGBT radicals will lose the battle."

    Are you referring to the acceptance of funds recently by University from the the church? Or maybe just the building bearing Thomas Monson's name?

    Given the statement, how do you feel about the church supporting the U.?

  • Otoavalu Ann Arbor, MI
    Sept. 14, 2016 2:02 p.m.

    Did anyone else find it ironic that one institution (NCAA) that has hard and fast rules on crossing gender categories (men competing in women's sports, for example) is unhappy with another institution (NC) that made a hard and fast rule on crossing gender categories?

  • UtahBlueDevil Lehi Ut & Durham, NC
    Sept. 14, 2016 1:58 p.m.

    The most irritating thing about this is the discussion keeps being Boulder down into an issue that isn't the main problem. Target is solving the problem by providing uni-sex family bathrooms that also avoids the issue of parents bringing their little kids into a bathroom of the other sex.

    The REAL issue is the other parts of the bill... Which no one is talking about

  • Otoavalu Ann Arbor, MI
    Sept. 14, 2016 1:55 p.m.

    Did anyone else find it ironic that an institution (NCAA) that has hard and fast rules on crossing gender classifications (men playing in women sports for example) is mad at another institution (NC) for setting a hard and fast rule on crossing gender classifications?

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Sept. 14, 2016 1:34 p.m.

    Woodworker.."I agree that we are almost all born with a strong physical attraction to others. But that passion, like any of our passions, needs to held within proper bounds"

    I wouldn't disagree but according to the BYU honor code and the principles of the Mormon church that proper time for same sex attracted folks is never.

    They are required to deny expression of a most fundamental part of themselves. They are required to view themselves as flawed because they were born with a sinful attraction.

    Sexual attraction is very different from anger, depression, or other emotional characteristics. Sexual attraction is a fundamental part of humanity.

    Would you allow someone to tell you that you are flawed because you were born a female (making the sex up)? Of course not. Therefore telling someone we know you were born this way but it is wrong so just don't express is is intolerable.

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 1:22 p.m.

    I found it ironic that someone is quoting Isa. 5:20! That same citation could be used in support of LGBT rights by those "Christians" who profess intolerance.

    For those who are so upset at the President, remember that he has to be President of all the people, not just those you want to be a associating with! For those who think political correctness has gone too far, let me suggest that be kind, caring, non judgmental and accommodating to all is not being "politically correct." It's being a good humans being and for many a good Christian.

    Rock is correct. The North Carolina decision will be felt in Provo. The Big12 president meeting in just a few weeks will not want to extend an invite to a school that may earn for them even more bad PR. After all they already have enough with Baylor.

  • RockOn Spanish Fork, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 1:05 p.m.

    Cowardly presidents will use the NCAA ruling on North Carolina to discriminate against BYU using religiously bigotry and getting PC cover as its excuse. MERITS no longer matter.

  • a_voice_of_reason Woods Cross, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 1:05 p.m.

    @ Tomahawk Red

    "Your choice is simple. Adhere to mainstream thinking civil decency -- or continue to operate in isolation."

    While it's refreshing to finally see a social liberal who openly admits that the LGBTQ movement is demanding adherence to the new morality for inclusion in society, it makes it no less disgusting. The LGBTQ movement has worked for years to point out the injustices and mistreatment that gays have faced for years. It is regrettable the mistreatment that individuals have received. The misunderstanding and outright persecution. Regrettable. Finally through their efforts we've learned to understand that people who are different from us should be accepted. We've learned that all people and opinions should be welcome at the table - disagreements can exist without mistreatment. However, now that they've gained mainstream acceptance the movement is now pushing for a "comply-or-die" outcome. Acceptance is no longer the goal. Now we must shun and forcibly remove anyone who thinks differently. Did this just go full circle? Is this not hypocrisy at its finest?

  • Just Truth Saratoga Springs, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:33 p.m.

    @SoonerUte, I think you are right. So we come to what this is really about. It is about money and corruption. BYU will stand firm. I will stand will them. I hope you will, too.

    Let the world live by its corrupt politics if it comes to that. I don't think the LGBT community is stronger than NCAA sports, however, if sports loving individuals want to stand up against this vocal minority. Stand up for what is right all who believe in true civil rights and freedoms. Stand up for America as it was founded not as it is being corrupted to become. God bless!

  • Tomahawk Red San Francisco, CA
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:22 p.m.

    Bluto - Sandy, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:35 a.m.

    It is high time for States (North Carolina) and Private Schools (BYU, Catholic & Protestant Colleges) to file a "Class Action Lawsuit" (Using the Sherman Anti-Trust laws) against the NCAA, NBA and anyone else who seeks to boycott and impose restrictions of trade on all entities...

    --------

    Good luck with that buddy.

    LOOOOL!!!

    Such an effort would be pulverized so hard, so fast.

    What you dont understand is most Americans are pro-civil rights. That is to say, your errant belief that you'd find a ton of support for advocating the continued suppression of the LGBT community is laughable.

    YOU are in the minority here, friend.

    So save your "we're letting the inmates run the prison" outrage for fiction day at the library.

    Your choice is simple. Adhere to mainstream thinking civil decency -- or continue to operate in isolation. Or kill your athletics program.

    You can "stick to your guns", as some have foolishly advocated in this thread, or you can adapt to 21st century America.

    You're more than welcome to stick to your guns. But you won't be doing so in the Big 12 conference.

  • Manzanita Las Vegas, NV
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:18 p.m.

    @ Bluto, who wrote that: And you advocating "discrimination" against religious institutions, by restricting free trade, with the intent to damage them economically, is against the law. Lawyer up, the push back cometh.

    ***

    Please file that lawsuit. I can't wait to see how many resources you can waste on a cause of action that will go absolutely nowhere. I even think there is a law firm that will take your case - Kirton & McConkie in SLC. That's right, the same law firm that threatened that Mormons would be forced to perform same-sex weddings inside the temples if gay marriage ever became legal. Tell me again - how many of gay weddings have been performed in temples? Please contact their offices right away and get started on your case.

  • Vermonter Plymouth, MI
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:16 p.m.

    Transgender bathroom issue will largely be solved in a few years as companies, organizations and governments convert existing facilities to fully private restrooms and fully private shower stalls.

    But, the culture wars will continue. There will be a new set of "victims" of white male religiously-motivated groups with a new set of grievances.

  • Tomahawk Red San Francisco, CA
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:07 p.m.

    Ohio-LDS - NE, OH
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:35 a.m.

    Don’t the NCAA, BIG 12, and NBA have the same right as BYU, the LDS Church, and Hobby Lobby to set their boundaries? There is a lot of hypocrisy going on here.

    ---------

    Oh how refreshing that post is.

    BYU fans rant and rave about religious freedom and in the same breath rail against freedom for others to associate only with entities they align with.

    Wonder how they'd feel if a major LGBTQ group marched up to the BYU president and demanded to represent 1/12th of the school, with full voting power.

    I'll tell you what would happen. An angry mob of BYU students would run them out of town.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:06 p.m.

    @Bluto
    "What students at Iowa St. and now K-State fail to realize is that the first amendment also protects faith and religion."

    It's not religion they're taking issue with, it's actions and policies.

    @Ghost Writer
    "then I am no better than the worst Jim Crow racist and need to be publicly condemned and shunned?"

    Well the closest historical analogue we have to opposition to same-sex marriage is opposition to interracial marriage. What's the view on those who oppose interracial marriage these days? That's probably a good estimate to how opposition to same-sex marriage will be viewed in 30 years.

    @bamafone
    "First of all LGBT is just too big of a mouthful to say. "

    That's what the abbreviation is there for.

    @Vanceone
    "would instead lead to the elimination of female competitors "

    There really isn't much of a line at all of people trying to get into women's sports as someone who is transgender.

    "men in dresses teams. And the left says you are bigoted and hateful"

    I suspect that'd probably happen less often if transgender women weren't referred to as "men in dresses".

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:06 p.m.

    I think the theory is a bit of an hysterical overreaction.

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:01 p.m.

    Brad Rock is making a stretch to generate traffic on this website - well played Mr Rock - well played.

  • a_voice_of_reason Woods Cross, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:00 p.m.

    This whole BYU thing is ridiculous. What is discrimination? To intentionally deny rights to or apply penalties to a specific individual or group of individuals based on something about them - particularly things that they can't select (race, gender, age, sexual orientation, etc.). Does BYU's Honor Code discriminate? No. All individuals are held to the same standard. No sexual relations outside of legal, heterosexual marriage. No romantic actions between members of the same sex. The rule applies to all. It targets specific behaviors - which granted are typically palatable only to the LGBTQ community - but targets the behavior, not the individual. The individuals are welcome subject to the conditions. Iowa State's Student Senate passed a discriminatory document. It did not instruct the Big XII to avoid all religious schools, or all schools that prohibit homosexual behavior. It instructed the Big XII to exclude BYU. A single institution/group of individuals. I think freedom of religion allows for private institutions and individuals to be discriminating about behaviors they will accept and condone. However, we should all accept and tolerate all individuals.

  • COUGARSTRONG HIGHLANDS RANCH, CO
    Sept. 14, 2016 11:41 a.m.

    I know cougar nation will have a hard time if BYU has to dissolve its athletic program in Provo, but BYU Hawaii and Idaho have already moved away from collegiate sports and have protected the church and universities from unfair and unnecessary ridicule, scrutiny and criticism. I would welcome the dissolution of athletics at BYU if it represents a stand for our principles and values. Society is rapidly changing and the positions of the University and the church are now minority positions. We will never change the NCAA, liberal or societal opinions on LGBT rights but we will continue to bring negative exposure to the University and the church if we engage in petty, ideological battles in the name of sports. I think the sooner BYU transitions its focus, money and resources away from athletics and into academic ambitions, the better the University and church will be. The reputation of the church and the University continue to decline with national exposure to our values and beliefs.

  • Vanceone Provo, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 11:39 a.m.

    Consider the fatal LGBT flaw: that opposition to them is somehow bigotry to be stamped out by law. Look at their defenders: because, they say, BYU is opposed to them being allowed to do whatever they want, that is unacceptable and by operation of law it must be forbidden.

    That is their central argument: that disagreeing with them is somehow "denying" them their so-called rights. They argue that when the LDS or any other church says that homosexuality is a sin, that such statements are impermissible legislation of morality. It's not legislation; it's just expressing their opinion. (of course, the left wants to remove the ability of churches to speak at all, saying that freedom of speech doesn't belong to an organization).

    Disagreeing with the LGBT agenda is the right thing to do. It is the moral thing to do. Too many of us forget that. Homosexuality is a wrong practice that deserves condemnation, and we must stand up for that. It is not "legislating" or "theocracy" to forthrightly condemn homosexual behavior as wrong and dangerous. The LGBT is in the process of criminalizing "dissent", and it is right to fight that.

  • Woodworker Highland, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 11:38 a.m.

    @pragmastistferlife
    I agree that we are almost all born with a strong physical attraction to others. But that passion, like any of our passions, needs to held within proper bounds. It would not be "pragmatic" to allow angry people to be violent, or for greed to rule in business. All our powers and passions need to be bridled. Here's an example. At the beginning of a school year I would ask my new 5th graders, " How many of you would like to have a class without any rules?" Almost all the hands would enthusiastically be raised; happy, eager faces nodded yes! I then said to them,"Good. I like having no rules, because I'm the biggest and strongest person in this room, and now I can do anything I want to you!" Suddenly, their faces clouded over as the consequences of "NO RULES!" dawned upon them. Then I posed a different question. "How many of you want to have rules in our classroom?" All hands were quickly raised!
    2) Good for you, North Carolina! Hold fast to fairness for all. 3) NCAA. Please rethink your position. Fairness will win the day; not being an unconstitutional bully. 4) Go Cougs!

  • Stringer Bell Henderson, NV
    Sept. 14, 2016 11:23 a.m.

    @ Lets Be Mature. "This mindset of "if you don't believe how we do we'll ban you" has to end. "

    Agree. People have been saying this to BYU for years.

  • Xpat1961 Oslo, Norway, 00
    Sept. 14, 2016 11:18 a.m.

    "Then there are plenty of other great Universities around the globe you can attend that will allow you everything you want."
    Okay, if we precede that statement with "if you aren't a white anglosaxon Protestant..." Is that okay? Is it okay to discriminate because you don't feel the same way as society?

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 11:14 a.m.

    ABQer,

    "Since identical twins are 100% genetically the same, if homosexuality is genetic, as many people claim, that number should be around 95-100%."

    You're incorrect. There are several limitations in twin studies.

    Some limitations:

    Results from twin studies cannot be directly generalized to the general population.

    Twins are not a random sample of the general population as they differ in their developmental environment because two fetuses are growing simultaneously.

    A classic example displaying the fallacy in your logic is regarding schizophrenia in Twins.

    There isn't space to explain it, but using your logic, schizophrenia, heart disease, stroke aren't conditions related to genetics. This would be false.

  • IntheBubble Highland, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 11:09 a.m.

    President Hinckley was right byu-p should do away with their athletic program.

  • christoph Brigham City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 11:03 a.m.

    Red states will be just fine, the Great Plains of this country believe in the Bible. Community and unity will always win. Law suit culture can't last long. No more NBA for me. Boring dull 3 month winter sport goes too long anyway. Where is Frank and Scott Layden's opinion on this? Religion comes before politics.

  • christoph Brigham City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:58 a.m.

    When will the NBA and NCAA pull out of states that take away rights of the polygamy crowd? They need to have their voice heard too.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:52 a.m.

    Just Truth "how so many are willing to speak for the Big12 or NCAA as if it is a foregone conclusion?"
    Its not a foregone conclusion, but in any business deal you should examine the risk.

    For the Big 12, expansion is about money. The Big 12 is considering BYU for its potential to make money for the Big 12. Due to recent unpleasantness, they have to consider the possibility that a future BYU will no longer make money due to boycotts or loss of NCAA membership.

    What then? Does the Big 12 cut ties with BYU when they are no longer financially useful? Or is it better to avoid the risk in the first place? There are equally good options that don't carry BYU's risk.

    "there is no reason the Big12 can’t send special interest groups packing"
    They could, but sending people packing costs money. The Big 12 is in business to make money.

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:49 a.m.

    Why is Rock stirring the pot? Isn't it enough to have college students at other BIG 12 schools who either know absolutely NOTHING about BYU or have never been to the campus make assumptions, now we have to have Mr. Rock with his suppositions? Give it a rest and see what happens at the BIG 12 discussions, please. Save the inflammatory articles for a later time.

  • JWH BYU MISSION VIEJO, CA
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:19 a.m.

    When I was little the neighborhood kids built a fort in a tree. Soon everyone gathered to play in our new treehouse. But then someone thought of making a club - you know to exclude the undesirables in the neighborhood. I had helped build the fort but suddenly found myself on the outside. Bummer.

    Did everyone need to be let in? I have no idea, I just know I did not like it. So I grabbed the other kids and we built a better tree house in a different tree.

    I want into the Big 12 to see BYU play good football. I want to play in that treehouse and I think we should update what needs to be updated. But if they don't want us, then we build a better treehouse. And enjoy what we have.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:17 a.m.

    Southern Transplant.."But, they believe that homosexual attraction should not be expressed. Just like they believe that heterosexual attraction should not be fully expressed until after marriage."

    Therein lies the difference how can you say they accept same sex attraction as natural when they specifically deny any expression of that attraction.

    Do you think they would allow two men to walk hand in hand and then embrace and kiss as they parted, yet that is absolutely allowed between men and women.

    Manzanita.."The Shakers believe in celibacy as a religious principle. Please explain for us readers, why don't you lobby on behalf of the Shakers to make sexual relationships of any kind illegal?"

    No one is lobbying to make you accept someone's beliefs. Sexual attraction is not a belief, it's who you are, like male, female, white, black, diabetic, short, tall, etc. Sexual attraction is biological and is as complicated as any other biological process, but you are born with it, you don't acquire it as a belief. So just as you don't get to oppose someone for being diabetic, you don't get to deny same sex attracted people their humanness.

  • ABQer Albuquerque, NM
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:15 a.m.

    There have been 8 studies on identical twins in Scandinavia, the United States, and Australia; and in those studies they found that in only 11% to 27% of cases were both of the twins homosexual. Since identical twins are 100% genetically the same, if homosexuality is genetic, as many people claim, that number should be around 95-100%. These are well funded studies in countries that are more open to homosexuality. The conclusion one can make from this is that people become homosexual because of external factors. If that is the case then I think a lot of tensions in our society would be resolved if we simply started treating homosexuality as a religion and give them all the same rights as a religious institution --nothing more, nothing less.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:11 a.m.

    David - Centerville, UT

    It's too bad we can't just enjoy sports without worrying about sexual identity, gay rights, and bathrooms.

    ------

    Sorry to inconvenience you, just like at one point blacks weren't allowed to use the same bathroom as whites with "seperate but equal" laws.

    The honor code will have to change to match American values.

  • Wise-sage pleasant grove, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:08 a.m.

    Proving once again that gay activist who use to only wanted to be accepted for being gay, now demand that you support them or else you should be punished and castigated for your freedom on religion.

  • But seriously folks! Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:06 a.m.

    I say stick to your guns BYU, otherwise you follow the path of liberalism and money like another Utah school did a few years ago.
    In the end right will win out and liberal schools, including one in our once great state, and the LGBT radicals will lose the battle.

  • PorLibertad Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:05 a.m.

    To TyGuy1981:

    I really hate to disappoint you friend but most BYU supporters could care less about being part of the BIG-12 if it means giving up our religious freedoms!

    There is much more at stake here - we do not want to be part of a "communistic type" society where the state forces everyone to believe and think a certain way.

    We want and we will fight as we always have for freedom of choice and freedom of conscience.

    How hard is it for you to understand that millions have died on the battle field to preserve our precious freedoms of conscience, choice, religion? How sad that you cannot see that restricting the rights and freedoms of one group will only diminish your own rights in the big picture.

    If you want more consideration for your LGBT concerns then promote a fairness to all approach that can and will result in benefits for all groups - but that will take hard work and deep thought - and I believe you are capable of that if you want it badly enough.

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 10:01 a.m.

    This is the same situation that happened in the late 70s. Then the NCAA was not pleased with BYUs policy relating to African Americans. We all know what happened with that.

    Can we expect the same if $$ flow is threatened?

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 9:59 a.m.

    Brad's definition of "periphery" and mine (as well as Webster's dictionary) are quite different.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 9:59 a.m.

    BYU will voluntarily leave the NCAA in the next 5 years -- that is my prediction. Good riddance NCAA. This PC , corrupt organization has ruined college sports.

  • TyGuy1981 SLC, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 9:33 a.m.

    As well BYU should not be allowed from the Big 12 for policies which are not in line with conference standards. It's that simple. If the NCAA feel that these policies are arcane and malicious, than so be it. Be gone from the NCAA too. Discrimination has no place in society. When religious beliefs lead to discrimination, that, so to speak, it where the rubber meets the road. As a nation we opt for expanding rights, time and time again. Restricting ppls ability to be free to express themselves without fear of reprisal is an untenable thought.
    As religion, marriage, and other so called "social goods" fall out of favor, so too will the ability of those who steadfastly cling to them to foist their will upon others.

  • Just Truth Saratoga Springs, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 9:31 a.m.

    I understand the argument that the Big12, NCAA sports, and even the world may be choosing a shift in its values that will leave BYU behind so-to-speak if it does not conform. The argument is that just as BYU leaves out people other organizations are well within their rights to leave BYU out. Yes, if they so choose that path they may. What I don’t understand is how so many are willing to speak for the Big12 or NCAA as if it is a foregone conclusion. Just as you are welcome to believe BYU is discriminating against people (even though they are actually discriminating against behavioral choices they simply do not and cannot agree with), the Big12 is also welcome to believe you are discriminating against religious beliefs upheld by the constitution. In other words, if BYU is abiding by the constitution then there is no reason the Big12, for example, can’t send special interest groups packing along with their pressures on everyone else to conform to your beliefs. The question is will you accept the Big12's decision if they keep playing BYU, don't change who BYU is, and thereby show they don't actually agree with your misrepresentation of them?

  • Ender Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 9:26 a.m.

    Just another reason why schools should focus on ACADEMICS and not SPORTS.

  • top of the world ,
    Sept. 14, 2016 9:17 a.m.

    My thoughts are a mass of confusion, dismay and concern. The world is changing, but not nearly as rapidly as America is. Values I believe in are being torn asunder. I am not included within the LGBT circle and therefore I comment herein from a point of ignorance. To those who are actual members of the LGBT community, please enlighten me as to how you are being discriminated against. And, please, support your concerns. I will do all within my limited power to help eliminate discrimination, be it marching with you with a sign held high or calling my political leaders. But being a very conservative, Christian American, I ask that you avoid what is quickly becoming a strong, well-organized, emotional-base effort to force me to change/alter the choices I have made in my life.

  • MoreMan San Diego, CA
    Sept. 14, 2016 9:15 a.m.

    Why have many comments blamed someone or something else (Liberal Fascists, etc) What's the point of agency if you need an "Honor Code"? Pretty soon BYU will have no options but to just play with themselves or against themselves. Shirts vs skins if that is allowed.

  • Duh West Jordan, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:58 a.m.

    @BelieveInAmerica - St George, UT

    "Do what is right, let the consequences follow. The biggest blessings come only after you have the faith to do the right thing. Ether 12:6 teaches us this, why do I feel like I have to remind BYU of this?"

    Uhmmm, what do you mean that you feel you need to remind BYU of this? Do you think BYU needs reminding? BYU will never cave to the pressures of the LGBT community and their demands. They will also never cave to any demands from the BIG 12 if they come demanding they change in order to be included. Many here beg BYU not to change and why I don't know. It is simple, BYU will never change it's policies unless the LDS church changes it's policies and I don't ever seeing that happening. BYU will let the sporting programs go if it ever comes down to a change or else philosophy!

  • Manzanita Las Vegas, NV
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:42 a.m.

    @ meckofahess

    The Shakers believe in celibacy as a religious principle. Please explain for us readers, why don't you lobby on behalf of the Shakers to make sexual relationships of any kind illegal? Wouldn't we all be better off if you respected the Shaker's beliefs and helped to make sure they were codified and imposed on all of society?

  • SouthernTransplant Spartanburg, SC
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:37 a.m.

    @pragmatistferlife, BYU accepts homosexual attraction as a natural human condition. @Voodohound99 says there are 1800 LGBT students there. BYU and the LDS church don't deny that reality. But, they believe that homosexual attraction should not be expressed. Just like they believe that heterosexual attraction should not be fully expressed until after marriage.

    BYU doesn't force anyone to attend their school. Folks are free to apply or not. And folks know full well going in what is in the honor code. I don't see why this is a big deal to anyone. Why would the NCAA care if students want to subject themselves to such an honor code or not? If someone wants to express homosexual attraction, he/she can go to a different school. No harm, no foul.

  • DEW Cougars Sandy, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:35 a.m.

    1979 I agreed and signed the Honor Code before entering to BYU Private Institution. I am proud and I know that BYU and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints will not alter the Honor Code! Either we get in the Big12 or any P5 League or stay at Independent, I will be happy!

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:33 a.m.

    @Manzanita

    And you advocating "discrimination" against religious institutions, by restricting free trade, with the intent to damage them economically, is against the law.

    Lawyer up, the push back cometh.

  • 65TossPowerTrap Salmon, ID
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:31 a.m.

    A lot of wishful thinking from Rock; however, with Mark Emmert leading the calvary - Rock my get his wish.

  • runnerguy50 Virginia Beach, Va
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:28 a.m.

    Strange times indeed but this is the new reality. My concerns are beyond the possible exclusion from the Big 12, the ability for BYU to operate freely without government pressure is at stake. If religious schools like BYU are "branded" by PC elite in a negative light what happens to the value of the BYU degree outside of Utah ? Im praying for our Church leaders during these strange times.

  • Vanceone Provo, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:27 a.m.

    It's a simple question: why should female athletes be forced to let men who claim to be women shower with them, use their locker rooms, and even replace them on the so-called "womens" sports team?

    Take BYU women's soccer, which is highly ranked right now. Should BYU be forced to let men onto their team, thereby removing Ashley Hatch and Elena Maderios and all the other great players? Because that is what the NCAA is demanding and threatening to ban BYU for not allowing.

    Who knew that Title IX, meant to promote female sports, would instead lead to the elimination of female competitors and now we have regular mens teams and men in dresses teams. And the left says you are bigoted and hateful if you think women should be allowed to compete, because that means the men have to be kept off the women's teams.

    Men and women are not equal, leftists. You claim to be "reality based." In this case, with your push for transgendered sports, it's clear you are propaganda based, at best.

  • BelieveInAmerica St George, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:26 a.m.

    It's really sad that many in the comments and even the article's writer have to even question whether or not BYU will put its honor code first or compromise it for a lucrative Big 12 invite.

    This shouldn't even be a second thought. Do what is right, let the consequences follow. The biggest blessings come only after you have the faith to do the right thing.

    Ether 12:6 teaches us this, why do I feel like I have to remind BYU of this?

  • Jacobiuntherus Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:23 a.m.

    Without doubt, some of our LGBT citizens, neighbors and friends have felt abused and treated unfairly at times. We must accept that such abuse and bad treatment is unjustifiable and we must stand for fair and equal treatment to all citizens. Such fair and equal treatment must also apply to citizens of religious faith and their institutions. Certainly, it is no better for LGBT supporters to discriminate against religious beliefs any more than it is for anyone to discriminate against LGBT citizens beliefs. Now, there are some practices and beliefs on both sides that will likely never be fully acceptable to the other side - that is okay. There is enough common ground and enough room for reasonable compromise on both sides to address the vast majority of concerns and find elegant solutions that permit both sides to live their beliefs and practices. There must be some give-and-take. I am confident that the vast majority of our LGBT friends and neighbors are willing to work with religious groups to find fair approaches for all.

  • bamafone Salem, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:23 a.m.

    First of all LGBT is just too big of a mouthful to say. Second, they want to steam roll any one in their path, so look out and beware. Third NCAA is also too much to say and it has become a PC lap dog. Time to dump both and let the play begin.

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:22 a.m.

    For one, I applaud North Carolina for not buckling. This PC standard that is becoming my way of the highway, or rather my way or I will cause you to lose money has got to go. This so called honored LGBT community who just wants things to be fair and equal are trying to destroy people by taking away money. i.e. law suits, pulling NCAA tournaments, closing down bakerys, etc. All because they don't get their way.

    BYU’s honor code forbids “all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings.”

    BYU's Honor Code ALSO forbids all forms of physical intimacy that give expression to those not married. And I don't hear any of them crying foul and wanting to threaten people with law suits, etc. They deal with it, and if they happen to cross the line, they deal with it and the consequences. If you don't like the honor code and can't follow it. Then there are plenty of other great Universities around the globe you can attend that will allow you everything you want. I would rather see BYU sports fall to the wayside than see the church and BYU change for PC reasons.

  • Xpat1961 Oslo, Norway, 00
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:18 a.m.

    Is it not true that BYU accepts students who are not mormon as long as they have a letter from their religious leader? Many religions accept same-sex marriages and perform them. BYU should therefore accept LGBT students in good standing in their religion who are part of same-sex marriages, as long as they do not have extramarital affairs.

    Does the honor code prohibit public displays of affection for heterosexuals? If it doesn't, then they shouldn't prohibit public displays of affection for LGBT individuals.

    Keep the requirement to have a letter from your religious leader. Prohibit public displays of affection for everyone. No more kissing or holding hands in public on the BYU campus. Allow everyone who is married legally to live together. Treat everyone equal. It isn't that hard. What would it really hurt?

    Jesus said love one another. It is a religious school. If you want to forbid LGBT individuals from having a normal life, close the school to LGBT individuals and see how fast BYU gets shut out of all sports.

  • Hoosier87 American Fork, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:17 a.m.

    @Ghost Writer - GILBERT, AZ
    @Ohio-LDS - NE, OH

    Again, this is quite fascinating. So BYU MUST believe as the mainstream society, that is allow homosexual activity in it's school to be acceptable. If they do not, then BYU does not deserve to be allowed to participate in college sports? Or at least be allowed in the Big12?

    What about abortion? Is that also a requirement - everyone must support abortion? How about banning anyone that has any other "traditional" thoughts/beliefs? Why stop with homosexuality?

    Once you prevent people/groups from having "access", where does that stop? Should those people/groups not be allowed to serve in the military? Or do they no longer deserve tax dollars from the Federal government? I'm serious about this, where does this stop? Or is it just to stop them from participating in college football? "Believe as we do or else!"

  • Meckofahess Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:10 a.m.

    At the end of the day, what sense does it make for the LGBTQ agenda to promote intolerance and religious discrimination? LGBTQ folks, please help us readers understand why it isn't a better policy to strive for fairness for your cause as well as for conservative causes? LGBTQ citizens, please help us understand why you wouldn't want us religious conservatives to fight for your rights of non discrimination in housing, employment, hospital visitation and such while you also show some deference for our rights to believe as we choose? LGBTQ folks, please help us understand how practicing religious discrimination towards us helps us work to end discrimination toward you? Please explain why working together to find difficult but fair solutions for everyone is not a good idea?

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 8:05 a.m.

    @Praggy

    To Quote Spencer W. Kimball

    "Today's new morality is just yesterdays immorality in a new package".

  • Ghost Writer GILBERT, AZ
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:50 a.m.

    So if I believe that individuals should not define themselves based on their physical appetites, if I don't believe that a gay marriage and a heterosexual marriage must absolutely, unconditionally be considered as exactly the same institution, then I am no better than the worst Jim Crow racist and need to be publicly condemned and shunned?

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:43 a.m.

    The acceptance of same sex attraction as a natural human condition is not political correctness. It's simply the acceptance of reality.

    If as a religion you choose to deny such reality and ban a natural human expression within the confines of your walls you have that right. However the rest of the world does not have to accept your actions nor associate with what is viewed as inhumane.

    If you view that as punishing you for your beliefs, then so be it.

    As the world changes and it certainly always has and always will, if you continue to resist new truths and label them the evil distortion of old beliefs you will more and more find yourselves with these conflicts because you just simply won't fit into the new world.

    Many of you will take pride in this, that's fine, just don't complain about being punished at the same time.

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:35 a.m.

    This nonsense has gone on long enough!
    Time to counter punch these PC radicals.

    It is high time for States (North Carolina) and Private Schools (BYU, Catholic & Protestant Colleges) to file a "Class Action Lawsuit" (Using the Sherman Anti-Trust laws) against the NCAA, NBA and anyone else who seeks to boycott and impose restrictions of trade on all entities, including, Universities and States.

    What students at Iowa St. and now K-State fail to realize is that the first amendment also protects faith and religion.

    The very people who scream for tolerance are indeed the most intolerant among us.
    If there is no push back, these anti religion bullies will only be emboldened and continue on their march to lgbtq centric madness.

    I hope the Big 12 will take a stand for religious freedom. Otherwise, TCU and Baylor are next in line for their assault.

  • Ohio-LDS NE, OH
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:35 a.m.

    "BYU has the right to set its institutional policies." That’s the defense given when people take offense at controversial BYU policies such as the expulsion of students who convert from Mormonism to another faith. The same explanation is heard for controversial LDS policies, such as denying baptism to children whose parents are gay, or conservative business policies, such as denying employees contraceptive coverage. The argument is always presented: "these groups have the right to set their policies; if you don’t like the policies then go somewhere else."

    So why is that readers of this paper are so incensed when an organization sets policies that lead to our exclusion? Don’t the NCAA, BIG 12, and NBA have the same right as BYU, the LDS Church, and Hobby Lobby to set their boundaries? There is a lot of hypocrisy going on here.

  • Juice Box Eureka, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:23 a.m.

    Stick to your guns, BYU! Hopefully they won't come knocking, but it almost seems inevitable.

    Sports are just sports, but I know BYU will not bend on this. I'd rather see them without competitive sports than selling out to get into the Big 12. And believe me, I would love to see them in the Big 12!

  • Voodohound99 Waukesha, WI
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:10 a.m.

    Isaiah prophesied of this very subject when he said, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter - (Isa. 5:20.) It's just the sign of the times my friends. We need to stand up for what's right.

    I love and respect all people but I will not support any group or organization that tries to force me to conform to their belief system in the name of political correctness and attempt to punish us for the way we believe and our moral standards. Just because we do not condone LGBT sexual lifestyle does not mean we, as an organization (In this case BYU), should be punished. Key word is Sexual lifestyle. I feel sorry for the LGBT individuals who define themselves based on their "Sexual" tendencies. Which in my opinion is suppressing to an individual. Is one's whole identity about sex? Really? I admire and respect the 1800+ great LGBT students at BYU who faithfully adhere to the honor code. That shows great character. And that's worth more than their weight in gold.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    Sept. 14, 2016 7:07 a.m.

    Liberal intolerance never ceases to amaze me.

  • New to Utah PAYSON, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 5:53 a.m.

    NCAA has caved completely to the leftists bullies of political
    correctness. The Obama administration has driven this
    mindless discrimination against Christians while virtually ignoring the current slaughter of Christians in the Middle East by ISSIS. It is not in the NCAA's interest to grovel to please extremist in the LGBT community. Its relevance and even survival will also be put into play.

  • EPoint Roy, UT
    Sept. 14, 2016 3:51 a.m.

    I am one who has grown up a fan of BYU sports, but also realize how very obnoxious some sports "heroes" can be, even at BYU. The win at any cost mentality, as well as the huge money investments in sports have largely ruined it for me, with the BYU programs being my last bastion of hope, that character and true Christian values might produce a wholesome product, Sports being one way we might recognize worthwhile goals, great effort, without losing our moral compass.

    Jared Ward comes to mind: 6th place in the Olympic Marathon, worthy husband and father and even a professor of statistics, what a great example to shine on all of college athletics, what great human effort and spirit. I made great personal sacrifice to attend the Y, and will always cherish my days there. "A style of our own" still burns bright to me, and hope we never lose that willingness to lean into the wind and stand tall on solid values regardless of what the world may say or do.

  • Manzanita Las Vegas, NV
    Sept. 14, 2016 3:21 a.m.

    The same First Amendment that protects BYU's freedom of religion also protects others' freedom of association. Fortunately, the NCAA and hopefully the Big 12 are sending the message that they will not be in league with those who promote LGBTQ discrimination. BYU as a private religious institution can preach whatever religious principles it wants to - that is the essence of religious freedom - but it cannot expect all of society to give those discriminatory teachings and practices the imprimatur of acceptance and acquiescence.

  • CougarForever Holladay, Utah
    Sept. 14, 2016 12:44 a.m.

    It is stunning to see how the cultural climate has changed in just the last decade.

    Hold strong.

  • Vanceone Provo, UT
    Sept. 13, 2016 11:25 p.m.

    Remember, LGBTs were all about acceptance, love and understanding. When people said there was tyranny there, they were mocked.

    And now we see the truth: It's "Compromise your values or else we destroy you."

    I think BYU has a clear path here: outright defiance. When the NCAA LGBT fascists demand that BYU make "gender neutral" sports teams and locker rooms, where you use whatever facility you want to and belong to whatever team you want, this will destroy all women's sports. One of the places the difference between the sexes is most apparent is sporting events (Australia's national women soccer team regularly loses to high school boys squads). If BYU just stands its ground and says that no, it will only accept women on its women's sports teams, the outcry if the NCAA forbids them from competing will be huge. Of course leftists will demand that the only way we can be fair is to make sure only transgender "women" are on the women's team, but most people will not stand for calling a spade a tractor.

    By the way, did you know Obama is about to order all women's shelters and refuge places to admit men? Just what abused women need!

  • Thid Barker Victor, ID
    Sept. 13, 2016 10:30 p.m.

    How much longer are we going to put up with this PC nonsense from the left? Thank you Democrats!

  • Kralon HUNTINGTON BEACH, CA
    Sept. 13, 2016 10:14 p.m.

    Isn't it impressive that the LGBT community has been able to change the dialogue in a few, short years to one where embracing LGBT values has become the over riding concern for any person or organization? More important that anything else that person or organization has ever done or believes in.

    I say this as someone who has long accepted LGBT individuals as friends, classmates and coworkers.

  • From Ted's Head Orem, UT
    Sept. 13, 2016 9:50 p.m.

    Wow! I sure hope that BYU does not alter its Honor Code to be accepted into the Big 12 or even should the NCAA start applying pressure. Sports have replaced religion in many people's lives and the over-emphasis of the importance of football--especially at BYU--is getting tiresome. Stay independent and stick to your guns if need be! End all the intercollegiate sports programs at BYU should the NCAA get too meddlesome. Life WILL go on.

  • wahului Stockton, CA
    Sept. 13, 2016 9:40 p.m.

    Evil, in spite of it's blustery attempt to appear so, will never overrule good. Participating universities have for years been moving away from the dominion of the NCAA and doing what they deem appropriate for their institutions. If the NCAA thinks it can tyrannize the nation's athletic programs, it is going to find itself alone on the island it creates. Exclusion from their little kingdom will mean less than nothing.

  • Hoosier87 American Fork, UT
    Sept. 13, 2016 9:22 p.m.

    Mr. Rock - mark my words, this is definitely not the end of this thing... What a strange time we are living in!

    BYU is without a doubt the best choice for the Big12. No rational person can claim otherwise. In fact, it's not even close when comparing what BYU can bring to the table versus any other school.

    I think BYU will need to adopt an Honor Code similar to the one's TCU and Baylor use, and to some extent what Notre Dame uses. Because what they have now will not cut it for long.

    I still find it almost beyond belief that a Christian school is finding itself in this position - again what a strange time we're living in.

  • lets be mature Meridian/USA, ID
    Sept. 13, 2016 9:21 p.m.

    This mindset of "if you don't believe how we do we'll ban you" has to end. A compromise can be made between discrimination and beliefs. And that goes out to both sides of ideology. We can include and love someone without supporting what they are doing.

  • David Centerville, UT
    Sept. 13, 2016 9:14 p.m.

    It's too bad we can't just enjoy sports without worrying about sexual identity, gay rights, and bathrooms.

    We sure have to worry about a lot in this country. In other places they worry about food, shelter, heat...

    Here we worry about bathrooms and sexual identity and punishing religions for what they believe. But I guess they do that in the Middle East too.

    It's crazy.