As someone who lives with the struggle of same-sex attractions, I can tell you
this right now.Nobody wakes up one day and says, "I'm a
homosexual." It's established through a compound of circumstances that
involves both nature and nurture. However, I'm also living proof that
change is possible. God has the power to change. If we show enough faith, He
can move mountains for us.I'm happy to be LDS. I am happy that
our leadership is showing the type of Christlike love we should see in the face
of tragedy. So much of that is lacking. I extend my thoughts and prayers to
the family and friends of all of my brothers and sisters in Orlando, who saw
their lives struck down in such a senseless act of evil. May God help you to
find peace and comfort during this difficult time.
@ Utah Blue Devil..re: "if we have to spell it out for you. But if
they choose to fall in love with and make a home with someone of the same sex...
absolutely that is a lifestyle."But is that not also true of
opposite sex couples? Why do we seem to refer to gay couples as a
lifestyle choice as opposed to opposite sex couples? The "straight
lifestyle." Which brings me to the question of whether sexual
orientation, like race or gender is a lifestyle or is it indeed something else?
Condolences to the people of the city of OrlandoPeople of America and
citizens of the city of Orlando, you have our condolences. The beast in human
form killed fifty innocent people and wounded more than fifty people. We are
very sorry for victims of that crime and their relatives.
5th Amendment - no.... "gay lifestyle" is only a small portion of who
they are. Just like the Mormon lifestyle encompasses a whole lot of other
lifestyles too. You can have an urban lifestyle, or a country lifestyle.....
none of these are mutually exclusive of gay or mormon lifestyle. I am confused how it is such a complicated concept to understand that people
are multifaceted. One part of their lifestyle doesn't preclude or demand
other parts need to be one way or another. You point that is muddied is spot
on. So to answer your question if the fact that someone plants a
garden..... it has nothing to do with their "sexual" lifestyle... if we
have to spell it out for you. But if they choose to fall in love with and make
a home with someone of the same sex... absolutely that is a lifestyle. Just as
getting married, or staying single is a lifestyle choice.People are
multifaceted/multidimensional. Their sexuality is only one of those dimensions.
@ Utah Blue Devil "Thats like saying there is nothing such as a Mormon
Lifestyle... good grief. That doesn't mean that 98% of what a person does
is indistinguishable from other people. I have many friends who are gay. They
live a wide spectrum of life styles."So a gay lifestyle is like
a religious lifestyle of some kind? Then you muddied the water and said they
live a wide spectrum of lifestyles. So the gay lifestyle is plural construct
of many lifestyles? Could you be more clear?I know of some gay
people who pay their mortgage, balance their checkbook, go to church, are active
members of their community, plant gardens, play sports, mow their lawns, fight
traffic to drive to work each day, and even raise families. Would this be
an acceptable definition of a "Gay Lifestyle?"
@KarenR... I appreciate the respectful discussion.... to your question "Do
the stats regarding the physical and emotional well-being of LGBT Mormons
suggest that they feel accepted and worthy?"The problem you are
describing goes well beyond the LGBT community. For example when I was mission
leader in the ward we had the mortra that we needed more people in the pews that
smelt of tobacco. There is this cultural issue with the "members" that
church is only for the perfected. But as we all know, very few if any of us
have obtained that state. All have challenges, all have their crosses to bear.
It is just some peoples challenges are more easily hidden. A
person who is being challenged by the word of wisdom has a far harder time
hiding their issue than perhaps a dad struggling with pornography and the
marital issues that brings. We as a church need to understand that we are all a
work in progress, and each of us at a different state, with different
challenges. Church is the place we come to worship and fellowship, not analyse
our neighbors challenges.So I understand your issue.... but it is
"What exactly is the gay lifestyle? I'm reading through the gay
agenda in the manifesto and cannot find it defined anywhere".Really... you don't know how a gay lifestyle is different than a straight
life style? I suggest you go have a chat with your parents if your not really
clear on this.Thats like saying there is nothing such as a Mormon
Lifestyle... good grief. That doesn't mean that 98% of what a person
does is indistinguishable from other people. I have many friends who are gay.
They live a wide spectrum of life styles. Some you would have no idea to their
preferences.... another friend of mine manages a gay/trans/community bar, and
it is pretty clear his preferences. Gays are not of one flavor or type. But
they do have a uniqueness to certain aspects of their lives that is unique....
just as Mormons have certain things that are unique. If there were no
uniqueness terms like LGBT would be irrelevant.So "equal
protection", if you aren't clear on what those differences might be,
find an adult and they will explain it to you.
@ContrariusesPot meet kettle." "I think you meant to
say that all the Repubs reacting"Who are you to say what Counter
Intelligence meant to say? I think he/she did a fine job of expressing their
opinion. They don't need you to clarify what they mean.
@windsor"Its been interesting to see liberals (Hillary comes to mind)
trying to do the contortions of the impossibility to accomplish BOTH 'Lets
not condemn Muslims' AND 'Lets love and support LGBT'"Why would this be a contortion no matter how you believe. You may not
be Muslim and you may not condone the actions of those in the LGBT community,
but you can love them as children of God. You can mourn for there loss and
pain. You can pray for their comfort and you can decry violence no matter who
it is targeting. Not much of a contortion.
Thoughts and Prayers.but no mention of actually DOING anything like
banning assault weapons to people who shouldn't have them.Jesus
said -- "Faith without works is dead".That can be taken
cjb "Another mass shooting at a venue where no one responded
appropriately until after many got killed.Can at least we all agree
to abolish all gun free zones on a national level OR require the owners of the
property to provide sufficient security?"Yes please let's
encourage a bunch of people drinking at a club to bring their guns. That will
@LonestarRunner --"It's interesting how you smear an entire
group with the same broad stroke for which you condemn them.Pot meet
kettle."Not at all. Look at my post again. I said: "I think you meant to say that all the Repubs reacting"I did not say: "I think you meant to say that all the Repubs are
reacting"You see the difference there?I didn't
say that all Repubs are doing it. I said all the Repubs WHO are doing it.
That's not smearing anyone -- it is specifically pointing out the
malefactors within the group.
ContrariusiestIt's interesting how you smear an entire group
with the same broad stroke for which you condemn them.Pot meet
@Counter Intelligence --"'Never Let a Serious Crisis Go to
Waste'"I think you meant to say that all the Repubs
reacting with anti-Islamic and pro-gun hysteria are the ones making fervent use
of this principle.TWO guys were prepared to kill this past Sunday --
one in Orlando, and one in Los Angeles. Both had assault weapons. Both were
angry and hate-filled. Both were targeting LGBTs. Only one was Muslim.So shall we simply pretend that both of them were Muslim, conveniently
ignoring the reality that it was anger and hatred against a specific group that
united them rather than religion?"Smearing an entire group based
on one extremist's actions is morally equivalent to smearing all gays based
upon the actions of Jeffery Dahmer"Right. Yet the Repubs have no
problem at all with blaming all Muslims for one supposed extremist, and using
his heinous act to discriminate against all Muslims.Why is that?
At this point we don't really know all the details. Could be that a gay
night club was merely an easier target than Disney World; or not.But
obviously Ginger Marshall, Ranchhand, Karen R, Contrariuser, Furry1993, Equal
Protection are following Rahm's Rule: 'Never Let a Serious Crisis Go
to Waste' and ramping up their "I am tolerant an anyone who disagrees
is a bigot" into a more intense version of "I am tolerant and anyone who
disagrees is a terrorist".Just for the record - such attitudes
are wrong on both counts.I am homosexual but this incessant
vengeance is tedious and gay bullies do NOT speak for me. Smearing an entire
group based on one extremist's actions is morally equivalent to smearing
all gays based upon the actions of Jeffery Dahmer (or allegedly gay Omar Mateen
himself). By doing so, they perfect the very zealotry they claim to despiseWhy cant the critics just agree that the event is tragic and be thankful
for the support?
What exactly is the gay lifestyle? I'm reading through the gay
agenda in the manifesto and cannot find it defined anywhere.
re: Mick said "Yet you have no proof that those individuals struggle with
gender identity."How exactly are people struggling with gender
identity, from a medical or psychological perspective? Note that Gender
Dysphoria is NOT a mental illness nor disorder.
Bluto responding to Ginger said: "According to you, the problem is, anything
short of totally embracing the Gay lifestyle is defined as bigotry to you.No, we
can agree to disagree.Tolerance is a two way street, not a one way
street."This is the message I was glad to see embraced by Jimmy
Fallon on his monologue after Orlando. We should ALL be free to live
without fearing being shot or bombed (or sued) for living our lives how we feel
best for us, whether others agree with us or not. And while some
might have thought he was standing up for Gays, he clearly implied EVERYONE."We need to get back to being brave enough to accept that we have
different opinions and thats okay - because that what America is built on. The
idea that we can stand up and speak our minds and live our lives not be punished
for that."Amen Jimmy
@Ranch"When you continually vilify and denigrate a group of people,
you can't act all surprised and horror-struck when this happens."That's interesting coming from someone who consistently vilifies
and denigrates LDS folk which in reality are a religious minority.
@ UtahBlueDevilThe (current) official LDS stance re: homosexuals may
be couched in terms of love and good intentions, but isn't the real test
what this looks like at the subject end? Do the stats regarding the physical
and emotional well-being of LGBT Mormons suggest that they feel accepted and
worthy?I would also refer you to the blogs, interviews, etc. of the
Mormon parents of LGBT children - what they and their children hear in church,
at service functions, from their Mormon neighbors, etc. In other words, not the
official line, but what is being experienced on the front lines.Mouthing the right words is neither enough nor proof of anything. Look at the
effects. LDS doctrine may not condone them, but the evidence strongly suggests
that it's contributing to them.
@ furry1993 He also checked out Disneyworld as a possible attack site. So it
wasn't only about his angst against gays. He was a deranged, mentally
unstable, abusive (see statements by his ex-wife) individual who wanted to cause
a whole lot of damage. Obviously is dislike for gays played into his choice of
killing venue. But it wasn't the only factor. He was a home-grown
radicalized Muslim. Since the only info we have on a possible motive has come
from his father, we just can't know exactly why he did it. No suicide note
( he must have known he wouldn't survive the attack.) I have
seen so many opinions over the last few days. The most unlikely in my mind is
that it was only about gays.
GingerMarshall - I am sorry, but your comments are clearly off base. The LDS
church has never condoned, tolerated nor encouraged the mistreatment of LGBT,
nor any other class of people. While we may have differences of opinion or
values on certain issues - take gay marriage - differing does not condone acts
against other people. I can be against body piercings.... but
that doesn't mean I condone any abuse or discrimination of people with
piercings. I can be against intoxication, but that doesn't mean I am for
the abuse of those who do get intoxicated. The LDS church has
strongly spoken out against the mistreatment of others, regardless of their
beliefs or life styles. That message has been delivered time and time again.
If you have not heard that, you are either not listening or don't want to
hear. If disagreeing with you equates in your mind to "abuse", I am
sorry, there isn't much that can be done about that. That is your issue
to solve, not the Church's.
@Mick --"The argument is that xx is female and xy is
male"Yet again -- What sex are people who are XX but
look male externally? Look up congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH). What sex are people who are XY but look female externally? Look up Complete
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS). These people are usually raised as
females. What sex do YOU think they are?Cmon, Mick. Surely you can
answer these simple questions?"Yet you have no proof that those
individuals struggle with gender identity. "People with CAIS are
usually raised as females, despite having XY chromosomes. What gender do YOU
think they are, Mick?"You are trying to change the argument by
refuting my argument with one that has no basis in fact. Straw man."Yeah, just as I thought. You don't understand what a straw man
argument actually is. Please look up the term before you try to use it again.And I'm still waiting for any evidence to support your claim that
the AAP calls transgenderism a "psychiatric illness". Have you got any?
Any at all?
When you continually vilify and denigrate a group of people, you can't act
all surprised and horror-struck when this happens.
Its been interesting to see liberals (Hillary comes to mind) trying to do the
contortions of the impossibility to accomplish BOTH 'Lets not condemn
Muslims' AND 'Lets love and support LGBT'
Contra-The argument is that xx is female and xy is male and that
transgender individuals go against the genetic gender . Your argument that XXY,
which physically looks male and XO, which physically looks female has gender
identity issues. Yet you have no proof that those individuals struggle with
gender identity. You are trying to change the argument by refuting my argument
with one that has no basis in fact. Straw man.
The focus should not be on what is said, but what is done. Actions say so much
more than words ever can. Where are the offers of financial assistance, local
wards and blood donations for the victims?
@GingerMarshall You not only ignored my point but you falsely assume that
I'm a Republican simply because I questioned your dogma.
(cont'd from previous)"those who have transgender issues
have a psychiatric illness, just like the American Academy of Pediatrics
says."I don't know where you got this erroneous notion, but
here are some actual statements from the AAP:-----------It is important for parents to make their home a place where their child feels
safe and loved unconditionally. Research suggests that gender is something we
are born with; it can't be changed by any interventions. It is critically
important that children feel loved and accepted for who they are.[....]There is nothing "wrong" with your child. The most important thing to
remember is to support, love, and accept your child as he or she is. [....]Like gender identity, an individual's physical and emotional
attraction to a member of the same or the opposite sex cannot be changed.[....]When your child discloses his or her identity to you, respond in
an affirming, supportive way....Accept and love your child as they are. They
will need your support and validation to develop into healthy teens and
adults.[....] Celebrate diversity in all forms.....Support your
child's self-expression through choices of clothing, jewelry, hairstyle,
friends, and room decoration.
@patriot --"ISIS had another killer headed to the gay pride
parade in California"The guy in California is a white guy from
Indiana who was already on probation for pointing a gun at someone last
October.His Facebook page includes political posts, including one in
which he compares Hillary Clinton to Adolf Hitler. In another, he repeats
conspiracy theories that the US government was behind terrorist attacks
including Sept. 11, 2001 and shares a video claiming that last year's
attack on Charlie Hebdo magazine was a hoax attributable to the "New World
Order."What in the world makes you think ISIS had anything to do
with him?@Mick --"Do you know how many trans people
actually have Klinefelters or Turners syndrome?"Nope -- and the
number is irrelevant. The point is that people exist in the middle of the gender
spectrum, and sometimes they don't fit in with what is typically assumed to
be male or female."just throwing out straw man
arguments."You don't seem to understand what "straw man
argument" means."just like the American Academy of
Pediatrics says."It doesn't say any such thing, actually.
See my next post.(cont'd)
Contra-Do you know how many trans people actually have Klinefelters
or Turners syndrome? Do you know how many with Klinfelters actually identify
more as female, but look more male? Or women with Turners identify as male even
though their external parts are female?My guess is that you have no
clue and are just throwing out straw man arguments. Until you have those
genetic facts I will continue to believe that those who have transgender issues
have a psychiatric illness, just like the American Academy of Pediatrics says.
You know, the journal you quoted that said there is no difference in children
raised by gay or straight parents.
Two points for clarification one, an AR-15 does not have an automatic option
available to most purchasers.. Automatic weapons require a special permit. If
you were firing an ar15 which had the automatic optioned turned off, then the
owner of the gun would have to have a special permit, or you and the owner were
firing an illegal weapon.2, In an argument for more gun control the
commentator, in defense of Chicago's ineffective gun control laws tells us
most guns confiscated from criminals came from Indiana. Which proves the point,
take guns away from the honest citizens and only the criminals will have
guns.The first AR-15 was created in a garage workshop. Criminals
wouldn't do that would they.Shut down all the gun makers in the
US and criminals will make their own.
ute alumni: "Mormons are the ONLY group of Americans that were forced out
of their country, by all levels of government."Umm, does the
Cherokee Trail of Tears ring a bell (and countless other Native American
evictions)? And the internment of Japanese citizens in WWII (OK, not
technically "out of their country" but forced out of their homes
nonetheless)?Briefly, one big problem with the "good guy with a
gun" scenario is that in a situation like Orlando (or Aurora), in a crowded
room that may be dark, the bad guy has 300 targets. The good guy has a single
target and 299 potential collateral casualties. The bad guy can fire just about
anywhere randomly and be assured of accomplishing his goal. The good guy has to
get it exactly right or risk becoming an unintended accomplice by hitting
innocent people. The odds are in the bad guy's favor.
@GingerAccording to you, the problem is, anything short of totally
embracing the Gay lifestyle is defined as bigotry to you.No, we can
agree to disagree. Tolerance is a two way street, not a one way
street.You respect my right to my religion and beliefs, though you may
disagree, and I will respect yourviews, though I may disagree.Agency for all!
@Cinci Man --"You are the last person I would expect to agree
with any teachings of the LDS Church"You know what assumptions
do, right?In reality, I support many teachings of the church. For
instance, I think the way you guys actively promote family and community
cohesiveness is great, your instincts to share with needy community members are
commendable, and your principles of preparedness are very sensible.But those aren't the sorts of things we tend to discuss on these comment
boards."I just stated that there is no hatred or violence
advocated..."No, sorry, but you did a lot more than that."It doesn't matter that you don't know yet..."LOL. Could you possibly get any more condescending?Yet again
-- many Christians disagree with you. Remember, less than 2% of the world's
population is LDS. And all those billions of other Christians are just as likely
to be correct in their beliefs as you are."It doesn't
matter that you don't know how to identify the gender of a person."Hmmm. You couldn't even answer any of my questions.So
tell us -- how do YOU identify the gender of a person?
@PacificCreek --"I have a hard time viewing the AR-15 rifle on
the open market. ...If each side were reasonable there might be ways to lessen
the scope and frequency of these shootings but neither side seems to be able to
have a reasonable discussion."We had an assault weapons ban for
10 years, until the Repubs under George Bush let it lapse.Hmmm.
yes we all should be shocked and sickened by this attack but if you are
surprised then perhaps its time to start paying attention to the
'LOSING' war on terror the US is involved in. Yes folks we are losing
the war on terror and if the measure of winning or losing is how much influence
ISIS has world wide and especially right here in America then certainly we are
getting our tails kicked. ISIS had another killer headed to the gay pride parade
in California all ready to kill with guns and loads of bombs but the man was
spotted and reported by some neighbors and the police caught him before he went
off. This would have been even worse than Florida. So ISIS can now just set back
and select the time and place of each attack with no consequences. I would call
that winning. So here we set waiting...just waiting for the next attack and my
guess is these Islamic devils already have their next 5 targets picked -- time
and place --- here in the US. Oh by the way this is what hope and change REALLY
@Worker: "You can have either gay rights or Islam. Not both."I've been paying attention to the Republican platform. You can have gay
rights or the Republican Party, but not both. I've been paying
attention to GOP legislation in Red States. You can have gay rights or
Republican politicians, but not both. I've been paying
attention to right wing preachers and religious leaders. You can have gay rights
or conservative religion, but not both.
PacificCreekyou wrote"...that gun and caliber of bullet was not
meant for hunting..."respectfully,Neither was the
It amazes me how each side of the gun control aisle will immediately start
spouting statistics to support their side. I don't think either side cares
a whit that 50 people were killed and another 53 injured. It is just a platform
to elevate their argument.I own guns and enjoy shooting them. I
have a hard time viewing the AR-15 rifle on the open market. That gun and
caliber of bullet was not meant for hunting, it was meant for ripping people to
shreds. It was designed for the military as a combat weapon. Simply taking the
automatic function off the weapon doesn't make it any less deadly. I have
shot one before and emptied out a 30 round magazine in about 30 seconds.If each side were reasonable there might be ways to lessen the scope and
frequency of these shootings but neither side seems to be able to have a
reasonable discussion. My condolences to all those who are affected
by this event.
I think we should pray for our LGBT citizens BEFORE they get mowed down by
religious zealots with assault rifles...BTW -- If you want to
see the REAL threat to "Religious Freedom", this would be it -- not Gay
@Contrariuser and all of your other usernamesYou are the last person
I would expect to agree with any teachings of the LDS Church and I'm good
with that. I just stated that there is no hatred or violence advocated in
teaching of eternal families. It doesn't matter that you don't know
yet about God's eternal families or even about gender identification. It
doesn't matter that you don't know how to identify the gender of a
person. You know more than you would ever admit to, and I'm even good with
your right to do that. All you have ever wanted to do in the Deseret News forums
is to disagree with anything LDS. You have that right. I know that the time
will come when you will know much more. If God is patient with you, I certainly
am too. He's patient with me too. There's a pathway for
you to an eternal family, just not a family with LGBT practices, in my opinion
(to which I'm entitled to believe as you are not to believe). Thanks for
"Utah allows for citizens of the state to openly carry an unloaded firearm
without a concealed firearm permit. To be classified as "unloaded," the
firearm must not have a round in the "firing position" and the firearm
must have at least two "mechanical actions" from firing. The firearm
cannot be concealed, but must be clearly visible at all times.Utahns
who choose to carry a firearm are prohibited from being in a secure area of an
airport, secure areas in which firearms are prohibited and in any courthouse,
churches if posted, mental health facility or correctional facility. However,
concealed weapon permit holders are permitted to carry at any public
school."(KSL 2013) Note:BYU can and does prohibit
firearms while the UofU, USU and all other public schools are not allowed to
restrict guns on campus.
@Cinci Man --"Gender is included in God's creation of His
children."First -- Gender identity is not at all the same thing
as sexual orientation.Second -- What gender is a person
who looks female externally but who has XY chromosomes? Look up Complete
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.What gender is a person who looks
male externally but who has XX chromosomes? Look up Congenital Adrenal
Hyperplasia.What gender is a person who is XO? What gender is a
person who is XXY?What gender is a person who has both XX and XY
cells scattered throughout their body? Look up chimeras, who are formed from the
fusion of two embryos in the uterus.What gender is a person who has
both male and female parts? Look up hermaphrodites.If you truly
believe that gender is an essential part of spirits, then you should be able to
answer these questions. Can you?Third -- There are many, MANY
Christians out there who disagree with you and your church about God's laws
and plans. And guess what, they have just as much right to their interpretations
as you do -- and theirs are just as likely to be correct as yours.
“We pray for the families and loved ones of the victims of this senseless
shooting and pray they will be comforted and cared for as they seek to heal. Our
prayers and support are also with community leaders and law enforcement
officials as they continue to investigate this shocking crime."What prayers have done anything to end the continued victimization of human
beings? What “prayers and support” have helped any “community
leaders and law enforcement officials” end the victimization?There is a way to end this victimization once and for all. Will the LDS
Church find this way and lead the way to the elimination of this victimization?
Or will the victimization continue to plague us, despite the “prayers and
support” that are offered as an attempt to alleviate it?
The Mormons are actually a great example of how a religion should act and how
their people should act, even in the face of disagreements and even
discrimination. The Mormons remain peaceful even as they are
persecuted as much if not more than Muslims today. The Muslims
would be wise to follow the Mormons as examples
Here is how try to show that the LDS teachings are not advocating hate and
violence. Consider this idea"We are all spirit children of
heavenly parents. Gender is included in God's creation of His children.
There is no surgery on earth that changes the gender of the spirit. God does
not make mistakes.Eternal families have father and mother sealed
together forever and children born to them are sealed, creating an eternal
family if other qualifications are eventually achieved. The Atonement of Jesus
Christ provides a pathway to becoming an eternal family for all such
families.Families created on earth in another fashion will not be
eternal. There is no pathway to becoming an eternal family when said family
cannot procreate eternally. God will be forced to dissolve such families. He
has no choice. His pathway is clear and revealed.The LDS Church
advocates that God does not make mistakes - but we do. There is no hatred
taught in these teachings, just love of God's pathway to becoming eternal
families in His eternal family. Is your position that God makes mistakes?
Hope and Faith, I agree with what you said, but often what happens is that some
people have such strong beliefs in their version of God, that they feel they
have become an instrument of God through which he works his ways. Those people
are the dangerous ones and feel that committing murder is justified because they
are part of God's army. It is no wonder that younger generations are
abandoning religious beliefs more and more when they see people commit acts of
murder or violence in the name of God. Even the Bundy gang were trying to
justify their criminal acts via their religion by quoting LDS scripture.
I'm glad the church came out against them for doing that because it puts
those extremists in their place. Unfortunately in Islam, there is no real
central authority to condemn Islamic acts of violence and credibly discredit
extreme elements in their religion.
As I understand it, the club was not a gun-free zone. There was an armed
security guard who turned out to be unable to stop the massacre.
I have opposed the GLBT lifestyle in this forum. I have not done so in hate
(though there are those who would label it as such) but out of strong religious
beliefs. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints does not teach hate,
but it does have firm doctrine. It would not be much of a church if it shifted
with every wind.HOWEVER, the Orlando incident was clearly
cold-blooded murder. This act was cowardly and reprehensible. It goes so far
beyond the boundaries of civilized society as to be mind-boggling. I'm
sure the Heavens grieve. If a person who hates so much can do so much harm to
one group, he can do it to any other. I offer my sincere condolences
to the victims and their families. What an unfathomable tragedy! And my heart
also goes out to the first responders as well.
@cjb"Can at least we all agree to abolish all gun free zones on a
national level OR require the owners of the property to provide sufficient
security?"Absolutely not. "If the Ausis want to
leave themselves defenseless the their homes that's their business. They
would have been safer had they gotten rid of gun free zones instead of
guns."The Aussies have gun homicide rates way way lower than the
US. They are safer.
@illuminated --"Actually guns have saved lives many times during
mass shootings. Utah's Trolly Square incident is a great example."Yet again -- Trolley Square was stopped by a POLICE OFFICER. Not Joe
Good-Guy-With-A-Gun."A gay, "gun free zone", bar was the
perfect target for an ISIS terrorist to hit because he knew there would likely
be nobody armed."Nonsense.Yet again -- these guys
don't stop to think about gun-free zones. There's only one reason he
picked that target: it had lots of gay people.Yet again -- a guy was
stopped yesterday in California on his way to the local Pride parade with a car
full of guns, ammunition, and explosive chemicals. The parade, of course, is
held out in the open -- no gun-free zone there."I sleep better
at night knowing I have it and could protect my family before the police
arrived."You sleep better because you are not acknowledging
reality. Yet again -- the reality is that people who own guns are much MORE
likely to die from gun violence -- not less.
Obama speaking on June 3rd--note--more than a week ago: “I
just came from a meeting today in the situation room, in which I’ve got
people who we know have been on ISIL websites, living here in the United States,
U.S. citizens,” Obama said at the town hall, using another name for the
Islamic State group. “And we’re allowed to put them on the no-fly
list when it comes to airlines, but because of the National Rifle Association, I
cannot prohibit those people from buying a gun.”Our country is
awash in guns. (Though Chicago and D.C. once had strict gun laws, they have
been weakened/struck down by recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions. Most guns
confiscated in crimes in Chicago come from neighboring states such as Indiana).
cjbSo, you are for NO gun free zones? HOw about airports and
airplanes.How about the Republican National Convention?How
about every major gun show?How does one only let the non drinkers
with guns into a club?And I love the use of Trolly square. Yes, it
was an off duty, private citizen. But this "private citizen" has gone
through extensive training and mental screening.Far different than
someone who has a 4 hour classroom training session as a minimum requirement.Want to carry in public, around me? I would prefer that you have significant
@Ginger Marshall:"Condemning" violence while supporting attitudes,
teachings, and policies used to justify violence is no longer
acceptable."The Mormon religion has a moral objection to
homosexual behavior and they have stated as such. Many cultures have moral
objections to certain behaviors. In fact, you have a moral objection to their
position and you have stated as such.So then, you are engaging in
the exact thing that you are condemning in them. How is not rank hypocrisy?Unless, of course, your position is that your moral objections are OK
and theirs are not because you have some special insight and wisdom and that
others are lacking.
Ginger marshalMany people can be capable of prejudice, looking in the
mirror is always the place to start before blaming another.
October 2010LDS Newsroom:"This Church has felt the bitter
sting of persecution and marginalization early in our history, when we were too
few in numbers to adequately protect ourselves and when society’s leaders
often seemed disinclined to help. Our parents, young adults, teens and children
should therefore, of all people, be especially sensitive to the vulnerable in
society and be willing to speak out against bullying or intimidation... Each
Latter-day Saint family and individual should carefully consider whether their
attitudes and actions toward others properly reflect Jesus Christ’s second
great commandment - to love one another.""Jesus Christ, whom
we follow, was clear in His condemnation of sexual immorality, but never cruel.
His interest was always to lift the individual, never to tear down."--My own opinion:Mormons aren't the problem here.
We shouldn't even be dragged into it. Sure, we believe in heterosexual
marriage. But we've also been one of the loudest voices condemning not only
violence, but feelings at attitudes which promote it. Believing in God
doesn't make one violent. People do that to themselves. Which is why we
especially focus on helping individuals feel love.
GingerMarshall,Nice interjection. Way to take the reigns of a
tragedy and vilify another minority.""Condemning"
violence while supporting attitudes, teachings, and policies used to justify
violence is no longer acceptable."Please point where in LDS
faith:- Supports attitudes of violence- Teaching of
violence- Advocates Policies of violence
@GingerMarshallYou can have either gay rights or Islam. Not both.
@MGoodwin --"A grown up discussion about gun control here in the
US should start with "how many times has it actually worked here?" We
get other counties all the time, but when we try to apply it here, everywhere it
is done it falls flat on it's face."Actually -- the states
with the highest violent crime rates tend to also be the states with the loosest
gun laws (see especially Nevada and Alaska). The often-criticized California and
New York, for instance, both have lower violent crime rates than the
often-praised Texas.@IDSpud --"statistics indicate
home invasions, and burglaries in general, have increased significantly in
Australia since the gun ban."overall gun-related death rate per
100,000:-- Australia 0.93-- USA 10.54gun-related
homicide rate per 100,000:-- Australia 0.16-- USA 3.43Also see the analysis at Snopes, titled "Do statistics demonstrate that
crime rates in Australia have increased substantially since the government there
instituted a gun buy-back program in 1997?" And also the article at the
Business Insider website titled "Australia enacted one of the largest gun
reforms ever nearly 2 decades ago — and gun deaths plummeted".
@cjb --"Can at least we all agree to abolish all gun free zones
on a national level OR require the owners of the property to provide sufficient
security?"You seriously want to mix guns and alcohol? What could
possibly go wrong, right?This attack had nothing to do with gun-free
zones. There's only one reason the gunman chose that target: the presence
of gay people.Remember, also yesterday, a man in California was
stopped on his way to the local Pride parade with a car full of guns,
ammunition, and explosive chemicals. The parade, of course, is held out in the
open air. No gun-free zone.These targets had one thing in common --
and it wasn't the presence or absence of gun owners.@MGoodwin
--"We have been condemning the ideology behind this violence for
a long time, radical Islam"Again -- remember the guy who was
stopped in California yesterday. That was a white guy.Some of us
HAVE been condemning the ideology behind this violence for a long time -- but it
wasn't radical Islam that united Orlando and California yesterday.
Re JoeBlowWell actually yes. Why should anyone at such an
establishment not be able to have a gun if they are not drinking?, i.e.
designated driver.We see time and time again what the alternative
@IDSpudGreat comment. I agree.
"More guns have never been the answer. "Actually guns have
saved lives many times during mass shootings. Utah's Trolly Square
incident is a great example. These don't get as much media attention
because, obviously, less people die.A gay, "gun free zone",
bar was the perfect target for an ISIS terrorist to hit because he knew there
would likely be nobody armed.I own an AR15. I only use it for
hunting, target practice, and a deterrent in a home defense situation. I sleep
better at night knowing I have it and could protect my family before the police
arrived. There are tens of thousands of good law abiding citizens
with guns in this country. Taking our guns away won't get them out of the
hands of bad people.
This was a nightclub. Is anyone suggesting that patrons to a nightclub where
alcohol is consumed, should be carrying guns?
Brent T Bass: The Islamist terrorist had enough time to call 911 and pledge
allegiance to ISIS. Someone should have rushed him at that time and taken him
down (with or without a gun). Political correctness endangers us all.
@MGoodwin 9:29 p.m. June 12, 2016You're forgetting the overt
"ideology" behind this latest attack -- virulent homophobia. The
perpetrator had a lot of potential sites available to him, but chose to drive
1-1/2 hours to attack a prominent gay nightclub. This clearly was an attack
against the GLBT community and an act of domestic terrorism.
Re earnestWhy do people care about gun free zones? Uh, because they
are dangerous and a public nuisance.If the Ausis want to leave
themselves defenseless the their homes that's their business. They would
have been safer had they gotten rid of gun free zones instead of guns.Since you can read my mind as to whether I care about violence victims, might
I suggest you start a sideshow at a carnival.
The lord works on his time schedule not ours. We must keep the faith and allow
more time for our thoughts and prayers to work.
A grown up discussion about gun control here in the US should start with
"how many times has it actually worked here?" We get other counties all
the time, but when we try to apply it here, everywhere it is done it falls flat
on it's face. The oft touted Assault Weapon ban did little to stop the
North Hollywood shootout, stricter straw purchase laws didn't prevent
cartels from amassing an arsenal used to kill dozens that we know of, Chicago
and DC have strict gun control laws yet that on track for a record setting year
of violence, and here thorough background checks (including more thorough checks
that happen when someone applies to be an armed security guard) and an FBI
investigation failed to prevent the shooter from obtaining his weaponry and
attacking an easy target. Which ineffective measure do we need more of? We
don't grow up by abandoning our principles to put a blanket of false
security upon ourselves to hide under.
Mr. Bass says Australia hasn't had any mass shootings since a ban on guns.
My understanding is that there weren't that many mass shootings before Port
Aurther. So, has enough time gone by to show any statistical link to the ban on
guns? I have also read where statistics indicate home invasions, and burglaries
in general, have increased significantly in Australia since the gun ban.
Depending on which statistics source is being referenced, I've also seen
claims that attempt to refute the increase since the ban. People will believe
what they want to believe.
cjb: Why do NRA fans keep blaming these on "gun free zones"? They never
care about the victims, they care about the guns and only the guns.Would a
few guys with guns in the nightclub have prevented this? Not a chance, in fact
they probably would have added to the victim count in a dark, noisy place.More guns have never been the answer. Australia had a mass shooting, they
banned most guns and the result is no more shootings. Only a fool would believe
more guns equal less shootings.Let's morn the victims and have a
grown up discussion about gun control. It was time for that decades ago.
GingerMarshall,Boyd K Packer said:"We understand why some
feel we reject them. That is not true. We do not reject you, only immoral
behavior. We cannot reject you, for you are the sons and daughters of God. We
will not reject you, because we love you"The proclamation on the
Family reads:"The Family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and
woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within
the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor
marital vows with complete fidelity."Members of the church are
encouraged to show respect to others. Our beliefs about marriage will never
change. Our beliefs about respecting others will never change. We don't
instruct God to rewrite His laws. It just doesn't work that way.We believe in peace, love, kindness, respect, and encouraging a world that has
free agency to use it responsibly and to do good. Not everyone does. But the
church is always teaching people to do what's right. What's right
isn't for you or me to decide.Mourning together is a healthier
We have been condemning the ideology behind this violence for a long time,
radical Islam, the people who have taken a religion and twisted it into a
justification for their despicable goals still remains a great threat, but
people haven't been taking it seriously. The enemy is here, it's not a
philosophical question, they want to kill you and the people you love. Is this a
war we're willing to fight, or one we'll keep trying to ignore?
Ginger - what attitudes, teachings, and policies pray tell "supports"
and "justifies" such violence?
Another mass shooting at a venue where no one responded appropriately until
after many got killed.Can at least we all agree to abolish all gun
free zones on a national level OR require the owners of the property to provide
No more prayers. No more "support."Stand up and
unequivocally say that any and all mistreatment of LGBT people must end. No
second class status. No excluding laws. No weasel-worded justifications. Stand against all mistreatment, oppose all who mistreat, and demand
equality and justice. Or support what happened in Orlando- and all other
heinous hate crimes. "Condemning" violence while supporting
attitudes, teachings, and policies used to justify violence is no longer