LDS leaders mourn 'shocking' Orlando terror attack, pray for victims, law enforcement

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  • BYU_Convert Provo, UT
    June 19, 2016 11:15 a.m.

    As someone who lives with the struggle of same-sex attractions, I can tell you this right now.

    Nobody wakes up one day and says, "I'm a homosexual." It's established through a compound of circumstances that involves both nature and nurture. However, I'm also living proof that change is possible. God has the power to change. If we show enough faith, He can move mountains for us.

    I'm happy to be LDS. I am happy that our leadership is showing the type of Christlike love we should see in the face of tragedy. So much of that is lacking. I extend my thoughts and prayers to the family and friends of all of my brothers and sisters in Orlando, who saw their lives struck down in such a senseless act of evil. May God help you to find peace and comfort during this difficult time.

  • 5th Amendment Salt Lake, UT
    June 18, 2016 2:40 p.m.

    @ Utah Blue Devil..
    re: "if we have to spell it out for you. But if they choose to fall in love with and make a home with someone of the same sex... absolutely that is a lifestyle."

    But is that not also true of opposite sex couples? Why do we seem to refer to gay couples as a lifestyle choice as opposed to opposite sex couples? The "straight lifestyle."

    Which brings me to the question of whether sexual orientation, like race or gender is a lifestyle or is it indeed something else?

  • seanko Orsk city, 00
    June 18, 2016 12:03 p.m.

    Condolences to the people of the city of Orlando
    People of America and citizens of the city of Orlando, you have our condolences. The beast in human form killed fifty innocent people and wounded more than fifty people. We are very sorry for victims of that crime and their relatives.

  • UtahBlueDevil Lehi Ut & Durham, NC
    June 17, 2016 4:54 p.m.

    5th Amendment - no.... "gay lifestyle" is only a small portion of who they are. Just like the Mormon lifestyle encompasses a whole lot of other lifestyles too. You can have an urban lifestyle, or a country lifestyle..... none of these are mutually exclusive of gay or mormon lifestyle.

    I am confused how it is such a complicated concept to understand that people are multifaceted. One part of their lifestyle doesn't preclude or demand other parts need to be one way or another. You point that is muddied is spot on.

    So to answer your question if the fact that someone plants a garden..... it has nothing to do with their "sexual" lifestyle... if we have to spell it out for you. But if they choose to fall in love with and make a home with someone of the same sex... absolutely that is a lifestyle. Just as getting married, or staying single is a lifestyle choice.

    People are multifaceted/multidimensional. Their sexuality is only one of those dimensions.

  • 5th Amendment Salt Lake, UT
    June 16, 2016 10:46 p.m.

    @ Utah Blue Devil "Thats like saying there is nothing such as a Mormon Lifestyle... good grief. That doesn't mean that 98% of what a person does is indistinguishable from other people. I have many friends who are gay. They live a wide spectrum of life styles."

    So a gay lifestyle is like a religious lifestyle of some kind? Then you muddied the water and said they live a wide spectrum of lifestyles. So the gay lifestyle is plural construct of many lifestyles? Could you be more clear?

    I know of some gay people who pay their mortgage, balance their checkbook, go to church, are active members of their community, plant gardens, play sports, mow their lawns, fight traffic to drive to work each day, and even raise families. Would this be an acceptable definition of a "Gay Lifestyle?"

  • UtahBlueDevil Lehi Ut & Durham, NC
    June 16, 2016 2:06 p.m.

    @KarenR... I appreciate the respectful discussion.... to your question "Do the stats regarding the physical and emotional well-being of LGBT Mormons suggest that they feel accepted and worthy?"

    The problem you are describing goes well beyond the LGBT community. For example when I was mission leader in the ward we had the mortra that we needed more people in the pews that smelt of tobacco. There is this cultural issue with the "members" that church is only for the perfected. But as we all know, very few if any of us have obtained that state. All have challenges, all have their crosses to bear.

    It is just some peoples challenges are more easily hidden. A person who is being challenged by the word of wisdom has a far harder time hiding their issue than perhaps a dad struggling with pornography and the marital issues that brings. We as a church need to understand that we are all a work in progress, and each of us at a different state, with different challenges. Church is the place we come to worship and fellowship, not analyse our neighbors challenges.

    So I understand your issue.... but it is not unique.

  • UtahBlueDevil Lehi Ut & Durham, NC
    June 16, 2016 1:55 p.m.

    "What exactly is the gay lifestyle? I'm reading through the gay agenda in the manifesto and cannot find it defined anywhere".

    Really... you don't know how a gay lifestyle is different than a straight life style? I suggest you go have a chat with your parents if your not really clear on this.

    Thats like saying there is nothing such as a Mormon Lifestyle... good grief. That doesn't mean that 98% of what a person does is indistinguishable from other people. I have many friends who are gay. They live a wide spectrum of life styles. Some you would have no idea to their preferences.... another friend of mine manages a gay/trans/community bar, and it is pretty clear his preferences. Gays are not of one flavor or type. But they do have a uniqueness to certain aspects of their lives that is unique.... just as Mormons have certain things that are unique. If there were no uniqueness terms like LGBT would be irrelevant.

    So "equal protection", if you aren't clear on what those differences might be, find an adult and they will explain it to you.

  • Squirtle Inside Your Head, UT
    June 16, 2016 1:35 p.m.

    @Contrariuses
    Pot meet kettle."

    "I think you meant to say that all the Repubs reacting"

    Who are you to say what Counter Intelligence meant to say? I think he/she did a fine job of expressing their opinion. They don't need you to clarify what they mean.

  • Squirtle Inside Your Head, UT
    June 16, 2016 1:26 p.m.

    @windsor
    "Its been interesting to see liberals (Hillary comes to mind) trying to do the contortions of the impossibility to accomplish BOTH 'Lets not condemn Muslims' AND 'Lets love and support LGBT'"

    Why would this be a contortion no matter how you believe. You may not be Muslim and you may not condone the actions of those in the LGBT community, but you can love them as children of God. You can mourn for there loss and pain. You can pray for their comfort and you can decry violence no matter who it is targeting. Not much of a contortion.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    June 16, 2016 1:17 p.m.

    Thoughts and Prayers.
    but no mention of actually DOING anything like banning assault weapons to people who shouldn't have them.

    Jesus said -- "Faith without works is dead".

    That can be taken literally...

  • Squirtle Inside Your Head, UT
    June 16, 2016 1:01 p.m.

    cjb
    "Another mass shooting at a venue where no one responded appropriately until after many got killed.

    Can at least we all agree to abolish all gun free zones on a national level OR require the owners of the property to provide sufficient security?"

    Yes please let's encourage a bunch of people drinking at a club to bring their guns. That will help. Not.

  • Contrariuses mid-state, TN
    June 16, 2016 12:51 p.m.

    @LonestarRunner --

    "It's interesting how you smear an entire group with the same broad stroke for which you condemn them.

    Pot meet kettle."

    Not at all.

    Look at my post again.

    I said: "I think you meant to say that all the Repubs reacting"

    I did not say: "I think you meant to say that all the Repubs are reacting"

    You see the difference there?

    I didn't say that all Repubs are doing it. I said all the Repubs WHO are doing it. That's not smearing anyone -- it is specifically pointing out the malefactors within the group.

  • LonestarRunner Salt Lake City, UT
    June 16, 2016 11:52 a.m.

    Contrariusiest

    It's interesting how you smear an entire group with the same broad stroke for which you condemn them.

    Pot meet kettle.

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    June 15, 2016 6:40 a.m.

    @Counter Intelligence --

    "'Never Let a Serious Crisis Go to Waste'"

    I think you meant to say that all the Repubs reacting with anti-Islamic and pro-gun hysteria are the ones making fervent use of this principle.

    TWO guys were prepared to kill this past Sunday -- one in Orlando, and one in Los Angeles. Both had assault weapons. Both were angry and hate-filled. Both were targeting LGBTs. Only one was Muslim.

    So shall we simply pretend that both of them were Muslim, conveniently ignoring the reality that it was anger and hatred against a specific group that united them rather than religion?

    "Smearing an entire group based on one extremist's actions is morally equivalent to smearing all gays based upon the actions of Jeffery Dahmer"

    Right. Yet the Repubs have no problem at all with blaming all Muslims for one supposed extremist, and using his heinous act to discriminate against all Muslims.

    Why is that?

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    June 14, 2016 10:39 p.m.

    At this point we don't really know all the details. Could be that a gay night club was merely an easier target than Disney World; or not.

    But obviously Ginger Marshall, Ranchhand, Karen R, Contrariuser, Furry1993, Equal Protection are following Rahm's Rule: 'Never Let a Serious Crisis Go to Waste' and ramping up their "I am tolerant an anyone who disagrees is a bigot" into a more intense version of "I am tolerant and anyone who disagrees is a terrorist".

    Just for the record - such attitudes are wrong on both counts.

    I am homosexual but this incessant vengeance is tedious and gay bullies do NOT speak for me. Smearing an entire group based on one extremist's actions is morally equivalent to smearing all gays based upon the actions of Jeffery Dahmer (or allegedly gay Omar Mateen himself). By doing so, they perfect the very zealotry they claim to despise

    Why cant the critics just agree that the event is tragic and be thankful for the support?

  • equal protection Cedar, UT
    June 14, 2016 3:39 p.m.

    What exactly is the gay lifestyle?

    I'm reading through the gay agenda in the manifesto and cannot find it defined anywhere.

  • equal protection Cedar, UT
    June 14, 2016 3:31 p.m.

    re: Mick said "Yet you have no proof that those individuals struggle with gender identity."

    How exactly are people struggling with gender identity, from a medical or psychological perspective? Note that Gender Dysphoria is NOT a mental illness nor disorder.

  • Mayfair City, Ut
    June 14, 2016 1:32 p.m.

    Bluto responding to Ginger said: "According to you, the problem is, anything short of totally embracing the Gay lifestyle is defined as bigotry to you.No, we can agree to disagree.Tolerance is a two way street, not a one way street."

    This is the message I was glad to see embraced by Jimmy Fallon on his monologue after Orlando.

    We should ALL be free to live without fearing being shot or bombed (or sued) for living our lives how we feel best for us, whether others agree with us or not.

    And while some might have thought he was standing up for Gays, he clearly implied EVERYONE.

    "We need to get back to being brave enough to accept that we have different opinions and thats okay - because that what America is built on. The idea that we can stand up and speak our minds and live our lives not be punished for that."

    Amen Jimmy

  • Aurelius maximus Berryville, VA
    June 14, 2016 1:26 p.m.

    @Ranch
    "When you continually vilify and denigrate a group of people, you can't act all surprised and horror-struck when this happens."

    That's interesting coming from someone who consistently vilifies and denigrates LDS folk which in reality are a religious minority.

  • Karen R. Houston, TX
    June 14, 2016 12:32 p.m.

    @ UtahBlueDevil

    The (current) official LDS stance re: homosexuals may be couched in terms of love and good intentions, but isn't the real test what this looks like at the subject end? Do the stats regarding the physical and emotional well-being of LGBT Mormons suggest that they feel accepted and worthy?

    I would also refer you to the blogs, interviews, etc. of the Mormon parents of LGBT children - what they and their children hear in church, at service functions, from their Mormon neighbors, etc. In other words, not the official line, but what is being experienced on the front lines.

    Mouthing the right words is neither enough nor proof of anything. Look at the effects. LDS doctrine may not condone them, but the evidence strongly suggests that it's contributing to them.

  • O'really Idaho Falls, ID
    June 14, 2016 11:56 a.m.

    @ furry1993 He also checked out Disneyworld as a possible attack site. So it wasn't only about his angst against gays. He was a deranged, mentally unstable, abusive (see statements by his ex-wife) individual who wanted to cause a whole lot of damage. Obviously is dislike for gays played into his choice of killing venue. But it wasn't the only factor. He was a home-grown radicalized Muslim. Since the only info we have on a possible motive has come from his father, we just can't know exactly why he did it. No suicide note ( he must have known he wouldn't survive the attack.)

    I have seen so many opinions over the last few days. The most unlikely in my mind is that it was only about gays.

  • UtahBlueDevil Lehi Ut & Durham, NC
    June 14, 2016 8:51 a.m.

    GingerMarshall - I am sorry, but your comments are clearly off base. The LDS church has never condoned, tolerated nor encouraged the mistreatment of LGBT, nor any other class of people. While we may have differences of opinion or values on certain issues - take gay marriage - differing does not condone acts against other people.

    I can be against body piercings.... but that doesn't mean I condone any abuse or discrimination of people with piercings. I can be against intoxication, but that doesn't mean I am for the abuse of those who do get intoxicated.

    The LDS church has strongly spoken out against the mistreatment of others, regardless of their beliefs or life styles. That message has been delivered time and time again. If you have not heard that, you are either not listening or don't want to hear. If disagreeing with you equates in your mind to "abuse", I am sorry, there isn't much that can be done about that. That is your issue to solve, not the Church's.

  • Contrariuses mid-state, TN
    June 14, 2016 8:15 a.m.

    @Mick --

    "The argument is that xx is female and xy is male"

    Yet again --

    What sex are people who are XX but look male externally? Look up congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH).

    What sex are people who are XY but look female externally? Look up Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (CAIS). These people are usually raised as females. What sex do YOU think they are?

    Cmon, Mick. Surely you can answer these simple questions?

    "Yet you have no proof that those individuals struggle with gender identity. "

    People with CAIS are usually raised as females, despite having XY chromosomes. What gender do YOU think they are, Mick?

    "You are trying to change the argument by refuting my argument with one that has no basis in fact. Straw man."

    Yeah, just as I thought. You don't understand what a straw man argument actually is. Please look up the term before you try to use it again.

    And I'm still waiting for any evidence to support your claim that the AAP calls transgenderism a "psychiatric illness". Have you got any? Any at all?

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    June 14, 2016 6:59 a.m.

    When you continually vilify and denigrate a group of people, you can't act all surprised and horror-struck when this happens.

  • windsor City, Ut
    June 14, 2016 6:38 a.m.

    Its been interesting to see liberals (Hillary comes to mind) trying to do the contortions of the impossibility to accomplish BOTH 'Lets not condemn Muslims' AND 'Lets love and support LGBT'

  • Mick Murray, Utah
    June 14, 2016 6:32 a.m.

    Contra-

    The argument is that xx is female and xy is male and that transgender individuals go against the genetic gender . Your argument that XXY, which physically looks male and XO, which physically looks female has gender identity issues. Yet you have no proof that those individuals struggle with gender identity. You are trying to change the argument by refuting my argument with one that has no basis in fact. Straw man.

  • equal protection Cedar, UT
    June 14, 2016 12:57 a.m.

    The focus should not be on what is said, but what is done. Actions say so much more than words ever can. Where are the offers of financial assistance, local wards and blood donations for the victims?

  • Toiler Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2016 10:26 p.m.

    @GingerMarshall You not only ignored my point but you falsely assume that I'm a Republican simply because I questioned your dogma.

  • contrariuss mid-state, TN
    June 13, 2016 9:39 p.m.

    (cont'd from previous)

    "those who have transgender issues have a psychiatric illness, just like the American Academy of Pediatrics says."

    I don't know where you got this erroneous notion, but here are some actual statements from the AAP:

    -----------

    It is important for parents to make their home a place where their child feels safe and loved unconditionally. Research suggests that gender is something we are born with; it can't be changed by any interventions. It is critically important that children feel loved and accepted for who they are.
    [....]
    There is nothing "wrong" with your child. The most important thing to remember is to support, love, and accept your child as he or she is.
    [....]
    Like gender identity, an individual's physical and emotional attraction to a member of the same or the opposite sex cannot be changed.
    [....]
    When your child discloses his or her identity to you, respond in an affirming, supportive way....Accept and love your child as they are. They will need your support and validation to develop into healthy teens and adults.
    [....]
    Celebrate diversity in all forms.....Support your child's self-expression through choices of clothing, jewelry, hairstyle, friends, and room decoration.

  • contrariuss mid-state, TN
    June 13, 2016 9:24 p.m.

    @patriot --

    "ISIS had another killer headed to the gay pride parade in California"

    The guy in California is a white guy from Indiana who was already on probation for pointing a gun at someone last October.

    His Facebook page includes political posts, including one in which he compares Hillary Clinton to Adolf Hitler. In another, he repeats conspiracy theories that the US government was behind terrorist attacks including Sept. 11, 2001 and shares a video claiming that last year's attack on Charlie Hebdo magazine was a hoax attributable to the "New World Order."

    What in the world makes you think ISIS had anything to do with him?

    @Mick --

    "Do you know how many trans people actually have Klinefelters or Turners syndrome?"

    Nope -- and the number is irrelevant. The point is that people exist in the middle of the gender spectrum, and sometimes they don't fit in with what is typically assumed to be male or female.

    "just throwing out straw man arguments."

    You don't seem to understand what "straw man argument" means.

    "just like the American Academy of Pediatrics says."

    It doesn't say any such thing, actually. See my next post.

    (cont'd)

  • Mick Murray, Utah
    June 13, 2016 8:18 p.m.

    Contra-

    Do you know how many trans people actually have Klinefelters or Turners syndrome? Do you know how many with Klinfelters actually identify more as female, but look more male? Or women with Turners identify as male even though their external parts are female?

    My guess is that you have no clue and are just throwing out straw man arguments. Until you have those genetic facts I will continue to believe that those who have transgender issues have a psychiatric illness, just like the American Academy of Pediatrics says. You know, the journal you quoted that said there is no difference in children raised by gay or straight parents.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    June 13, 2016 6:49 p.m.

    Two points for clarification one, an AR-15 does not have an automatic option available to most purchasers.. Automatic weapons require a special permit. If you were firing an ar15 which had the automatic optioned turned off, then the owner of the gun would have to have a special permit, or you and the owner were firing an illegal weapon.

    2, In an argument for more gun control the commentator, in defense of Chicago's ineffective gun control laws tells us most guns confiscated from criminals came from Indiana. Which proves the point, take guns away from the honest citizens and only the criminals will have guns.

    The first AR-15 was created in a garage workshop. Criminals wouldn't do that would they.

    Shut down all the gun makers in the US and criminals will make their own.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2016 6:11 p.m.

    ute alumni: "Mormons are the ONLY group of Americans that were forced out of their country, by all levels of government."

    Umm, does the Cherokee Trail of Tears ring a bell (and countless other Native American evictions)? And the internment of Japanese citizens in WWII (OK, not technically "out of their country" but forced out of their homes nonetheless)?

    Briefly, one big problem with the "good guy with a gun" scenario is that in a situation like Orlando (or Aurora), in a crowded room that may be dark, the bad guy has 300 targets. The good guy has a single target and 299 potential collateral casualties. The bad guy can fire just about anywhere randomly and be assured of accomplishing his goal. The good guy has to get it exactly right or risk becoming an unintended accomplice by hitting innocent people. The odds are in the bad guy's favor.

  • Bluto Sandy, UT
    June 13, 2016 5:48 p.m.

    @Ginger

    According to you, the problem is, anything short of totally embracing the Gay lifestyle is defined as bigotry to you.

    No, we can agree to disagree.

    Tolerance is a two way street, not a one way street.
    You respect my right to my religion and beliefs, though you may disagree, and I will respect your
    views, though I may disagree.

    Agency for all!

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    June 13, 2016 2:16 p.m.

    @Cinci Man --

    "You are the last person I would expect to agree with any teachings of the LDS Church"

    You know what assumptions do, right?

    In reality, I support many teachings of the church. For instance, I think the way you guys actively promote family and community cohesiveness is great, your instincts to share with needy community members are commendable, and your principles of preparedness are very sensible.

    But those aren't the sorts of things we tend to discuss on these comment boards.

    "I just stated that there is no hatred or violence advocated..."

    No, sorry, but you did a lot more than that.

    "It doesn't matter that you don't know yet..."

    LOL. Could you possibly get any more condescending?

    Yet again -- many Christians disagree with you. Remember, less than 2% of the world's population is LDS. And all those billions of other Christians are just as likely to be correct in their beliefs as you are.

    "It doesn't matter that you don't know how to identify the gender of a person."

    Hmmm. You couldn't even answer any of my questions.

    So tell us -- how do YOU identify the gender of a person?

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    June 13, 2016 2:13 p.m.

    @PacificCreek --

    "I have a hard time viewing the AR-15 rifle on the open market. ...If each side were reasonable there might be ways to lessen the scope and frequency of these shootings but neither side seems to be able to have a reasonable discussion."

    We had an assault weapons ban for 10 years, until the Repubs under George Bush let it lapse.

    Hmmm.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    June 13, 2016 1:35 p.m.

    yes we all should be shocked and sickened by this attack but if you are surprised then perhaps its time to start paying attention to the 'LOSING' war on terror the US is involved in. Yes folks we are losing the war on terror and if the measure of winning or losing is how much influence ISIS has world wide and especially right here in America then certainly we are getting our tails kicked. ISIS had another killer headed to the gay pride parade in California all ready to kill with guns and loads of bombs but the man was spotted and reported by some neighbors and the police caught him before he went off. This would have been even worse than Florida. So ISIS can now just set back and select the time and place of each attack with no consequences. I would call that winning. So here we set waiting...just waiting for the next attack and my guess is these Islamic devils already have their next 5 targets picked -- time and place --- here in the US. Oh by the way this is what hope and change REALLY feels like.

  • GingerMarshall Brooklyn, OH
    June 13, 2016 1:34 p.m.

    @Worker: "You can have either gay rights or Islam. Not both."

    I've been paying attention to the Republican platform. You can have gay rights or the Republican Party, but not both.

    I've been paying attention to GOP legislation in Red States. You can have gay rights or Republican politicians, but not both.

    I've been paying attention to right wing preachers and religious leaders. You can have gay rights or conservative religion, but not both.

  • strom thurmond taylorsville, UT
    June 13, 2016 1:30 p.m.

    PacificCreek
    you wrote
    "...that gun and caliber of bullet was not meant for hunting..."

    respectfully,

    Neither was the second amendment.

  • PacificCreek Puyallup, WA
    June 13, 2016 12:11 p.m.

    It amazes me how each side of the gun control aisle will immediately start spouting statistics to support their side. I don't think either side cares a whit that 50 people were killed and another 53 injured. It is just a platform to elevate their argument.

    I own guns and enjoy shooting them. I have a hard time viewing the AR-15 rifle on the open market. That gun and caliber of bullet was not meant for hunting, it was meant for ripping people to shreds. It was designed for the military as a combat weapon. Simply taking the automatic function off the weapon doesn't make it any less deadly. I have shot one before and emptied out a 30 round magazine in about 30 seconds.

    If each side were reasonable there might be ways to lessen the scope and frequency of these shootings but neither side seems to be able to have a reasonable discussion.

    My condolences to all those who are affected by this event.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    June 13, 2016 11:51 a.m.

    I think we should pray for our LGBT citizens BEFORE they get mowed down by religious zealots with assault rifles...

    BTW --
    If you want to see the REAL threat to "Religious Freedom", this would be it -- not Gay marriage...

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    June 13, 2016 11:34 a.m.

    @Contrariuser and all of your other usernames

    You are the last person I would expect to agree with any teachings of the LDS Church and I'm good with that. I just stated that there is no hatred or violence advocated in teaching of eternal families. It doesn't matter that you don't know yet about God's eternal families or even about gender identification. It doesn't matter that you don't know how to identify the gender of a person. You know more than you would ever admit to, and I'm even good with your right to do that. All you have ever wanted to do in the Deseret News forums is to disagree with anything LDS. You have that right. I know that the time will come when you will know much more. If God is patient with you, I certainly am too. He's patient with me too.

    There's a pathway for you to an eternal family, just not a family with LGBT practices, in my opinion (to which I'm entitled to believe as you are not to believe). Thanks for respecting that.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    June 13, 2016 11:04 a.m.

    "Utah allows for citizens of the state to openly carry an unloaded firearm without a concealed firearm permit. To be classified as "unloaded," the firearm must not have a round in the "firing position" and the firearm must have at least two "mechanical actions" from firing. The firearm cannot be concealed, but must be clearly visible at all times.

    Utahns who choose to carry a firearm are prohibited from being in a secure area of an airport, secure areas in which firearms are prohibited and in any courthouse, churches if posted, mental health facility or correctional facility. However, concealed weapon permit holders are permitted to carry at any public school."
    (KSL 2013)

    Note:
    BYU can and does prohibit firearms while the UofU, USU and all other public schools are not allowed to restrict guns on campus.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    June 13, 2016 11:01 a.m.

    @Cinci Man --

    "Gender is included in God's creation of His children."

    First -- Gender identity is not at all the same thing as sexual orientation.

    Second --

    What gender is a person who looks female externally but who has XY chromosomes? Look up Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

    What gender is a person who looks male externally but who has XX chromosomes? Look up Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia.

    What gender is a person who is XO? What gender is a person who is XXY?

    What gender is a person who has both XX and XY cells scattered throughout their body? Look up chimeras, who are formed from the fusion of two embryos in the uterus.

    What gender is a person who has both male and female parts? Look up hermaphrodites.

    If you truly believe that gender is an essential part of spirits, then you should be able to answer these questions. Can you?

    Third -- There are many, MANY Christians out there who disagree with you and your church about God's laws and plans. And guess what, they have just as much right to their interpretations as you do -- and theirs are just as likely to be correct as yours.

  • ssev Maple Grove, MN
    June 13, 2016 10:59 a.m.

    “We pray for the families and loved ones of the victims of this senseless shooting and pray they will be comforted and cared for as they seek to heal. Our prayers and support are also with community leaders and law enforcement officials as they continue to investigate this shocking crime."

    What prayers have done anything to end the continued victimization of human beings? What “prayers and support” have helped any “community leaders and law enforcement officials” end the victimization?

    There is a way to end this victimization once and for all. Will the LDS Church find this way and lead the way to the elimination of this victimization? Or will the victimization continue to plague us, despite the “prayers and support” that are offered as an attempt to alleviate it?

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2016 10:41 a.m.

    The Mormons are actually a great example of how a religion should act and how their people should act, even in the face of disagreements and even discrimination.

    The Mormons remain peaceful even as they are persecuted as much if not more than Muslims today.

    The Muslims would be wise to follow the Mormons as examples

  • Cinci Man FT MITCHELL, KY
    June 13, 2016 10:32 a.m.

    Here is how try to show that the LDS teachings are not advocating hate and violence. Consider this idea"

    We are all spirit children of heavenly parents. Gender is included in God's creation of His children. There is no surgery on earth that changes the gender of the spirit. God does not make mistakes.

    Eternal families have father and mother sealed together forever and children born to them are sealed, creating an eternal family if other qualifications are eventually achieved. The Atonement of Jesus Christ provides a pathway to becoming an eternal family for all such families.

    Families created on earth in another fashion will not be eternal. There is no pathway to becoming an eternal family when said family cannot procreate eternally. God will be forced to dissolve such families. He has no choice. His pathway is clear and revealed.

    The LDS Church advocates that God does not make mistakes - but we do. There is no hatred taught in these teachings, just love of God's pathway to becoming eternal families in His eternal family. Is your position that God makes mistakes?

  • Kings Court Alpine, UT
    June 13, 2016 10:23 a.m.

    Hope and Faith, I agree with what you said, but often what happens is that some people have such strong beliefs in their version of God, that they feel they have become an instrument of God through which he works his ways. Those people are the dangerous ones and feel that committing murder is justified because they are part of God's army. It is no wonder that younger generations are abandoning religious beliefs more and more when they see people commit acts of murder or violence in the name of God. Even the Bundy gang were trying to justify their criminal acts via their religion by quoting LDS scripture. I'm glad the church came out against them for doing that because it puts those extremists in their place. Unfortunately in Islam, there is no real central authority to condemn Islamic acts of violence and credibly discredit extreme elements in their religion.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    June 13, 2016 10:10 a.m.

    As I understand it, the club was not a gun-free zone. There was an armed security guard who turned out to be unable to stop the massacre.

  • rw123 Sandy, UT
    June 13, 2016 9:55 a.m.

    I have opposed the GLBT lifestyle in this forum. I have not done so in hate (though there are those who would label it as such) but out of strong religious beliefs. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints does not teach hate, but it does have firm doctrine. It would not be much of a church if it shifted with every wind.

    HOWEVER, the Orlando incident was clearly cold-blooded murder. This act was cowardly and reprehensible. It goes so far beyond the boundaries of civilized society as to be mind-boggling. I'm sure the Heavens grieve. If a person who hates so much can do so much harm to one group, he can do it to any other.

    I offer my sincere condolences to the victims and their families. What an unfathomable tragedy! And my heart also goes out to the first responders as well.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2016 9:04 a.m.

    @cjb
    "Can at least we all agree to abolish all gun free zones on a national level OR require the owners of the property to provide sufficient security?"

    Absolutely not.

    "If the Ausis want to leave themselves defenseless the their homes that's their business. They would have been safer had they gotten rid of gun free zones instead of guns."

    The Aussies have gun homicide rates way way lower than the US. They are safer.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    June 13, 2016 8:52 a.m.

    @illuminated --

    "Actually guns have saved lives many times during mass shootings. Utah's Trolly Square incident is a great example."

    Yet again -- Trolley Square was stopped by a POLICE OFFICER. Not Joe Good-Guy-With-A-Gun.

    "A gay, "gun free zone", bar was the perfect target for an ISIS terrorist to hit because he knew there would likely be nobody armed."

    Nonsense.

    Yet again -- these guys don't stop to think about gun-free zones. There's only one reason he picked that target: it had lots of gay people.

    Yet again -- a guy was stopped yesterday in California on his way to the local Pride parade with a car full of guns, ammunition, and explosive chemicals. The parade, of course, is held out in the open -- no gun-free zone there.

    "I sleep better at night knowing I have it and could protect my family before the police arrived."

    You sleep better because you are not acknowledging reality. Yet again -- the reality is that people who own guns are much MORE likely to die from gun violence -- not less.

  • 1aggie SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    June 13, 2016 8:52 a.m.

    Obama speaking on June 3rd--note--more than a week ago:

    “I just came from a meeting today in the situation room, in which I’ve got people who we know have been on ISIL websites, living here in the United States, U.S. citizens,” Obama said at the town hall, using another name for the Islamic State group. “And we’re allowed to put them on the no-fly list when it comes to airlines, but because of the National Rifle Association, I cannot prohibit those people from buying a gun.”

    Our country is awash in guns. (Though Chicago and D.C. once had strict gun laws, they have been weakened/struck down by recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions. Most guns confiscated in crimes in Chicago come from neighboring states such as Indiana).

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    June 13, 2016 8:44 a.m.

    cjb

    So, you are for NO gun free zones? HOw about airports and airplanes.

    How about the Republican National Convention?
    How about every major gun show?

    How does one only let the non drinkers with guns into a club?

    And I love the use of Trolly square. Yes, it was an off duty, private citizen. But this "private citizen" has gone through extensive training and mental screening.

    Far different than someone who has a 4 hour classroom training session as a minimum requirement.
    Want to carry in public, around me? I would prefer that you have significant more training.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    June 13, 2016 8:29 a.m.

    @Ginger Marshall:
    "Condemning" violence while supporting attitudes, teachings, and policies used to justify violence is no longer acceptable."

    The Mormon religion has a moral objection to homosexual behavior and they have stated as such. Many cultures have moral objections to certain behaviors. In fact, you have a moral objection to their position and you have stated as such.

    So then, you are engaging in the exact thing that you are condemning in them. How is not rank hypocrisy?

    Unless, of course, your position is that your moral objections are OK and theirs are not because you have some special insight and wisdom and that others are lacking.

  • bamafone Salem, UT
    June 13, 2016 8:18 a.m.

    Ginger marshal
    Many people can be capable of prejudice, looking in the mirror is always the place to start before blaming another.

  • Hope & Faith give us strength Utah County, UT
    June 13, 2016 8:16 a.m.

    October 2010
    LDS Newsroom:

    "This Church has felt the bitter sting of persecution and marginalization early in our history, when we were too few in numbers to adequately protect ourselves and when society’s leaders often seemed disinclined to help. Our parents, young adults, teens and children should therefore, of all people, be especially sensitive to the vulnerable in society and be willing to speak out against bullying or intimidation... Each Latter-day Saint family and individual should carefully consider whether their attitudes and actions toward others properly reflect Jesus Christ’s second great commandment - to love one another."

    "Jesus Christ, whom we follow, was clear in His condemnation of sexual immorality, but never cruel. His interest was always to lift the individual, never to tear down."

    --
    My own opinion:

    Mormons aren't the problem here. We shouldn't even be dragged into it. Sure, we believe in heterosexual marriage. But we've also been one of the loudest voices condemning not only violence, but feelings at attitudes which promote it. Believing in God doesn't make one violent. People do that to themselves. Which is why we especially focus on helping individuals feel love.

  • Aurelius maximus Berryville, VA
    June 13, 2016 8:11 a.m.

    GingerMarshall,

    Nice interjection. Way to take the reigns of a tragedy and vilify another minority.

    ""Condemning" violence while supporting attitudes, teachings, and policies used to justify violence is no longer acceptable."

    Please point where in LDS faith:

    - Supports attitudes of violence
    - Teaching of violence
    - Advocates Policies of violence

  • Worker Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2016 7:57 a.m.

    @GingerMarshall

    You can have either gay rights or Islam. Not both.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    June 13, 2016 7:40 a.m.

    @MGoodwin --

    "A grown up discussion about gun control here in the US should start with "how many times has it actually worked here?" We get other counties all the time, but when we try to apply it here, everywhere it is done it falls flat on it's face."

    Actually -- the states with the highest violent crime rates tend to also be the states with the loosest gun laws (see especially Nevada and Alaska). The often-criticized California and New York, for instance, both have lower violent crime rates than the often-praised Texas.

    @IDSpud --

    "statistics indicate home invasions, and burglaries in general, have increased significantly in Australia since the gun ban."

    overall gun-related death rate per 100,000:
    -- Australia 0.93
    -- USA 10.54

    gun-related homicide rate per 100,000:
    -- Australia 0.16
    -- USA 3.43

    Also see the analysis at Snopes, titled "Do statistics demonstrate that crime rates in Australia have increased substantially since the government there instituted a gun buy-back program in 1997?" And also the article at the Business Insider website titled "Australia enacted one of the largest gun reforms ever nearly 2 decades ago — and gun deaths plummeted".

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    June 13, 2016 7:32 a.m.

    @cjb --

    "Can at least we all agree to abolish all gun free zones on a national level OR require the owners of the property to provide sufficient security?"

    You seriously want to mix guns and alcohol? What could possibly go wrong, right?

    This attack had nothing to do with gun-free zones. There's only one reason the gunman chose that target: the presence of gay people.

    Remember, also yesterday, a man in California was stopped on his way to the local Pride parade with a car full of guns, ammunition, and explosive chemicals. The parade, of course, is held out in the open air. No gun-free zone.

    These targets had one thing in common -- and it wasn't the presence or absence of gun owners.

    @MGoodwin --

    "We have been condemning the ideology behind this violence for a long time, radical Islam"

    Again -- remember the guy who was stopped in California yesterday. That was a white guy.

    Some of us HAVE been condemning the ideology behind this violence for a long time -- but it wasn't radical Islam that united Orlando and California yesterday.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    June 13, 2016 7:24 a.m.

    Re JoeBlow

    Well actually yes. Why should anyone at such an establishment not be able to have a gun if they are not drinking?, i.e. designated driver.

    We see time and time again what the alternative leads to.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    June 13, 2016 7:20 a.m.

    @IDSpud
    Great comment. I agree.

  • illuminated Kansas City, MO
    June 13, 2016 6:37 a.m.

    "More guns have never been the answer. "

    Actually guns have saved lives many times during mass shootings. Utah's Trolly Square incident is a great example. These don't get as much media attention because, obviously, less people die.

    A gay, "gun free zone", bar was the perfect target for an ISIS terrorist to hit because he knew there would likely be nobody armed.

    I own an AR15. I only use it for hunting, target practice, and a deterrent in a home defense situation. I sleep better at night knowing I have it and could protect my family before the police arrived.

    There are tens of thousands of good law abiding citizens with guns in this country. Taking our guns away won't get them out of the hands of bad people.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    June 13, 2016 6:06 a.m.

    This was a nightclub. Is anyone suggesting that patrons to a nightclub where alcohol is consumed, should be carrying guns?

  • BrentBot Salt Lake City, UT
    June 13, 2016 5:52 a.m.

    Brent T Bass: The Islamist terrorist had enough time to call 911 and pledge allegiance to ISIS. Someone should have rushed him at that time and taken him down (with or without a gun). Political correctness endangers us all.

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    June 13, 2016 5:33 a.m.

    @MGoodwin 9:29 p.m. June 12, 2016

    You're forgetting the overt "ideology" behind this latest attack -- virulent homophobia. The perpetrator had a lot of potential sites available to him, but chose to drive 1-1/2 hours to attack a prominent gay nightclub. This clearly was an attack against the GLBT community and an act of domestic terrorism.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    June 13, 2016 2:10 a.m.

    Re earnest

    Why do people care about gun free zones? Uh, because they are dangerous and a public nuisance.

    If the Ausis want to leave themselves defenseless the their homes that's their business. They would have been safer had they gotten rid of gun free zones instead of guns.

    Since you can read my mind as to whether I care about violence victims, might I suggest you start a sideshow at a carnival.

  • Liberty For All Cedar, UT
    June 13, 2016 12:56 a.m.

    The lord works on his time schedule not ours. We must keep the faith and allow more time for our thoughts and prayers to work.

  • MGoodwin Murray/USA, UT
    June 13, 2016 12:29 a.m.

    A grown up discussion about gun control here in the US should start with "how many times has it actually worked here?" We get other counties all the time, but when we try to apply it here, everywhere it is done it falls flat on it's face. The oft touted Assault Weapon ban did little to stop the North Hollywood shootout, stricter straw purchase laws didn't prevent cartels from amassing an arsenal used to kill dozens that we know of, Chicago and DC have strict gun control laws yet that on track for a record setting year of violence, and here thorough background checks (including more thorough checks that happen when someone applies to be an armed security guard) and an FBI investigation failed to prevent the shooter from obtaining his weaponry and attacking an easy target. Which ineffective measure do we need more of? We don't grow up by abandoning our principles to put a blanket of false security upon ourselves to hide under.

  • IDSpud Eagle, ID
    June 13, 2016 12:26 a.m.

    Mr. Bass says Australia hasn't had any mass shootings since a ban on guns. My understanding is that there weren't that many mass shootings before Port Aurther. So, has enough time gone by to show any statistical link to the ban on guns? I have also read where statistics indicate home invasions, and burglaries in general, have increased significantly in Australia since the gun ban. Depending on which statistics source is being referenced, I've also seen claims that attempt to refute the increase since the ban. People will believe what they want to believe.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    June 12, 2016 10:43 p.m.

    cjb: Why do NRA fans keep blaming these on "gun free zones"? They never care about the victims, they care about the guns and only the guns.
    Would a few guys with guns in the nightclub have prevented this? Not a chance, in fact they probably would have added to the victim count in a dark, noisy place.
    More guns have never been the answer. Australia had a mass shooting, they banned most guns and the result is no more shootings. Only a fool would believe more guns equal less shootings.
    Let's morn the victims and have a grown up discussion about gun control. It was time for that decades ago.

  • Faith + Virtue + Knowledge Utah County, UT
    June 12, 2016 10:32 p.m.

    GingerMarshall,

    Boyd K Packer said:
    "We understand why some feel we reject them. That is not true. We do not reject you, only immoral behavior. We cannot reject you, for you are the sons and daughters of God. We will not reject you, because we love you"

    The proclamation on the Family reads:
    "The Family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity."

    Members of the church are encouraged to show respect to others. Our beliefs about marriage will never change. Our beliefs about respecting others will never change. We don't instruct God to rewrite His laws. It just doesn't work that way.

    We believe in peace, love, kindness, respect, and encouraging a world that has free agency to use it responsibly and to do good. Not everyone does. But the church is always teaching people to do what's right. What's right isn't for you or me to decide.

    Mourning together is a healthier choice IMO.

  • MGoodwin Murray/USA, UT
    June 12, 2016 9:29 p.m.

    We have been condemning the ideology behind this violence for a long time, radical Islam, the people who have taken a religion and twisted it into a justification for their despicable goals still remains a great threat, but people haven't been taking it seriously. The enemy is here, it's not a philosophical question, they want to kill you and the people you love. Is this a war we're willing to fight, or one we'll keep trying to ignore?

  • IDSpud Eagle, ID
    June 12, 2016 8:55 p.m.

    Ginger - what attitudes, teachings, and policies pray tell "supports" and "justifies" such violence?

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    June 12, 2016 4:39 p.m.

    Another mass shooting at a venue where no one responded appropriately until after many got killed.

    Can at least we all agree to abolish all gun free zones on a national level OR require the owners of the property to provide sufficient security?

  • GingerMarshall Brooklyn, OH
    June 12, 2016 4:03 p.m.

    No more prayers.
    No more "support."

    Stand up and unequivocally say that any and all mistreatment of LGBT people must end. No second class status. No excluding laws. No weasel-worded justifications.

    Stand against all mistreatment, oppose all who mistreat, and demand equality and justice.
    Or support what happened in Orlando- and all other heinous hate crimes.

    "Condemning" violence while supporting attitudes, teachings, and policies used to justify violence is no longer acceptable.