@2close2callWell from your statements I have to point out you don't
understand the religious position and your science statements are also ill
defined. I'll just suggest that you take time to try and see what the LDS
position really is and that you try to look at it from a view point that both
positions can be factual and look for proofs from that position. Good luck with
@london_josh "If you want to go point by point - choose a proper forum with
people who are here to argue point by point with you."Why? There
is no need to go point by point and argue. It is either correct how it is
written or not correct. Anything else is just rationalization to make it somehow
fit with science. Your comment makes my point that some people cannot see past
their religion when studying science.
@2close2call:Ever heard of the great LDS scientist named Henry
Perhaps an article about how 5 of the 50 business influencers are Mormons from
BYU, showing BYU and Mormons in the educated mainstream isn't the best
introduction to personal views on why Mormons are uneducated in general. That
point of view pretty much conflicts with the article in the first place and is
by basic definition a very broad brushed and bigoted viewpoint.
I think I know why BYU is over-represented in the list.As has been
mentioned already, we start training the YM/YW for leadership early in their
lives.You also have the fact that we teach our children to study the
scriptures and figure out on their own if the LDS church is true.We
also teach our children to seek out God's advice when faced with problems.
The Scriptures are full of stories from people who were faced with new problems
and were given innovative solutions.Here is probably the biggest
difference, we have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which means constant
companionship by the Holy Ghost and a source of constant inspiration.
2cloe2callI think that there are forums like beliefnet where you can
go back and forth all day long on this stuff. I don't think that people
reading the deseretnews about some success from BYU grads want the entire story
to be surpassed by back and forth comments about how the flood might have been
local and is a story told by every population group on earth, or how the swords
are never said to have been made of steel and specifically were stained by
other's blood similar to swords used by aztec, or how most of us Mormons
don't think that God changed the skin tone of people but rather that
it's a matter of genetic mixing of populations, or why you suppose that the
Jaredites were in wooden submarines rather than boats with roofs.If
you want to go point by point - choose a proper forum with people who are here
to argue point by point with you.
@SLCWatch " I don't think It conflicts with actual science either.
Perhaps you're missing an understanding of what the sciences say."I suppose you would then stipulate the following: Human
beings did not begin just over 6000 years ago with Adam and Eve as there have
been humans existing throughout the world for well over 100,000 proven by
science.There was no worldwide flood as mentioned in the Bible as
there are trees still living that are older than the time period of the supposed
flood. Many of the wars with steel swords etc in the Book of Mormon
did not happen or exist as there was no evidence of steel being processed in the
America's during the BOM times and a people that numerous that had such
major battles would have artifacts or remains.God did not change
peoples skin color at any time(we know how that process occurs though science.
A few Jewish people did not ride in a wooden submarine to leave and
go across the ocean (as mentioned in the BOM) as it is scientifically impossible
in several ways.
"However, in my opinion, once you delve into other subject areas like
history or anthropology, (particularly in the Americas) LDS struggle because
they are unable to look past their faith beliefs that conflict with the actual
science."Did you research that or just make general
assumptions?There is a massive amount of LDS research on American
anthropology due to a heightened interest in it with a lot of broad
contributions. The amount of LDS people in central America and those who go
back to places where they served missions to do research and humanitarian work
is amazing.History has the same heavy influencers.I
think you left off things like genetics as well, which BYU has a highly ranked
genetics program, despite views from some who assume that the science conflicts
with LDS theology - research is research, religion is religion, there are some
who mix the two and in so doing get a bad result, there are many allow the two
to enhance each other to a more full result.Your comment was
absolutely incorrect, unfounded, and bigoted in the assumption.Why
not just congratulate these men and assume the best of others?
@marxism.I lived in Russia for 9 years so I am not at all interested in the
Marxist perspective on economics. I have witnessed the diabolical results of
Marxism first hand.
And now the comments are degenerating into into cheap shots at the Church. Good
grief.Congrats again to the five men and women who were recognized
on this list.
@2close2callI disagree with your premise that LDS people can't look
into the sciences, history and anthropology. My experience is just the opposite
and doctrinally speaking you don't understand the commandment to seek out
of the best books wisdom and knowledge. I don't think It conflicts with
actual science either. Perhaps you're missing an understanding of what the
sciences say. Science is no more fool proof than any other discipline if it
becomes dogmatic. I accept truth. Much of science is best guess to date. It
seems to hold up until it doesn't then the next best guess is good until
it's replaced again. I love science and I'm amazed all the time at
the daily discoveries that change the last best guess. I invite you to look
into science deeper and see how the hand of god is greater than we ever thought.
Not surprising at all. The church is a business first and foremost so why
wouldn't its flagship university turnout such keen business men --
multi-level marketing and all.
"Mormon background helped 5 BYU grads make list of world's 50 most
important management thinkers"I agree with this statement. The
only problem is the most important "thinking" is limited to certain
subjects like business, accounting, etc. However, in my opinion, once you delve
into other subject areas like history or anthropology, (particularly in the
Americas) LDS struggle because they are unable to look past their faith beliefs
that conflict with the actual science.
The Prophet Joseph Smith was a uniter of good people, yet a disrupter to the
educated and those who love money; he would not have made this list however,
declaring bankruptcy in 1842 (which I first learned in Rough Stone Rolling---a
book that builds faith, and reminds us how commonly special the prophet was) ;
clearly to build temples, send out ministers, print materials, feed the poor,
and manage a poor church in Ohio and Missouri was too much on the budget, and
the Lord judges management differently than we do, thankfully. And the church
and the Lord don't need money, which ironically, is what makes people
prosper. Was it Hugh Nibley that said money serves us best when we think of
it the least?
@laggieDeal with it. The truth shall set you free.
@ One human family: My experience in the LDS church have been just the opposite
of your take. My religion teaches me that truth is knowledge of things as they
really are, as they always have been and as they always will be. In my religion,
I am constantly encouraged to study, think and pray to the being who has perfect
knowlege. My religion does not and has never required me to believe anything
that isn't true! I think that is wonderful!
@John Locke "Don't get wrapped up in whether capitalism or communism
is better. It not much more than thinking in circles...it never ends. Also, I am
part of the 160,000,000 and don't care. It is the individualism and
independence from Government control for which I strive. I gain happiness from
that."OK, I get where you're coming from. But wealth
concentration is a technical matter in economics - the grist of the
sub-discipline "welfare economics." Wealth concentration if it
continues will choke the current system, I am convinced. This matter needs to
be aired out - especially on campus - but it isn't because most on campus
are afraid to do so.
I haven't read all of the comments, so I don't know if it's been
mentioned yet. BYU places more graduates in dental school than any other
undergrad program in America. I suspect that GPA and DAT scores, while
important, are not the only measuring tools that explain this level of
excellence. Here in Denver, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an
Shamrock dad....I too wish Nibley could weigh in. Just finished
"The Essential Nibley"...a great refresher course in the workings of a
Marxist: Happiness is not measured by the number of cars, homes or bank
accounts you have, but by having "sufficient for your needs," which,
after obtaining that (getting a sound education and going to work), equates to
dedicating yourself to your happiness and the happiness of your family and
others. It's simple: Don't get wrapped up in whether capitalism or
communism is better. It not much more than thinking in circles...it never ends.
Also, I am part of the 160,000,000 and don't care. It is the individualism
and independence from Government control for which I strive. I gain happiness
@ shamrock dad - I, too, would love to hear what Hugh would have to say. He
spoke at BYU about a fatal shift from leaders to managers. Looks like the shift
I do think BYU is a good school and I am glad I went there. I am not surprised
that there are some BYU grads in the list. What I don't think
it is accurate is the connection to the church. In my experience, the church
discourages thinking and intellectualism. When you have an environment where
you are expected to obey without question, there is no room for debate.
Now retired, but an MBA graduate from BYU, I was once asked to take over an
ailing manufacturing plant of over 400 people as Director of Operations. My
boss, a good Catholic man from Chicago, came to visit and have dinner early in
my tenure there. In the conversation I said, "Ken, in order to understand
me, you need to understand the Mormon Church." He expressed willingness to
listen. I began by explaining that starting at age 12 I was taught how to be a
leader and how to be a follower and how to tell the difference!" I
explained that as a 12 year old I "managed" (obviously with help) fast
offering collections. He was amazed. So I believe Dave Ulrich is absolutely
right. It's not about BYU as much as about Mormon Culture and the spin-off
benefits of activity. My MBA was invaluable in my career, but only because
"I once was a deacon."
Wish Hugh Nibley was around to weigh in !
Marxist....your insights in the following paragraph are interesting and spot
on...but where is the "so what statement" that should follow this
excellent premise? ssj. Quote from Marxist: "On a typical
university campus there are in effect two economics departments. On the one hand
there is an economics department proper, whose job is to sing the praises of
capitalism. And then there is the business school which is concerned with the
actual operation of a business. These guys are part of the latter department. I
know of no other discipline where this sort of split occurs. For example, there
aren't two English departments, or two mechanical engineering departments
Anonymous User...The thinkers50 ranking is followed and applauded by none other
than the "Financial Times" one of the leading financial publications in
the world. That should be prestigious enough for the most skeptical. Sorry you
haven't heard of it, (Thinkers50) but that fact hardly diminishes its
value. I have been involved with mult-national companies for 45 years. I assure
you the list is well known and admired in the highest of business circles. ssj.
The LDS church excels at producing salesmen/women through its missionary program
and at providing youth and young adults opportunities to develop leadership and
public speaking skills. Additionally, a majority of college-bound LDS youth
attend BYU. It doesn't necessarily translate that BYU has the best
business management programs. in fact, how many, if any, of these management
stars went on to earn an MBA at BYU? How many, if any, of these management
stars are employed by BYU?
Who has ever even heard of this ranking? It's one thing if some
well-respected institution or publication comes out with a ranking like this,
but I suspect most people have never even heard of this organization.
I'm surprised at some of the negative-toned comments from people who are
unfamiliar with what these 'thinkers' have written and who
haven't read the methodology of the thinkers50. There are no doubt some
problems with the list but it has strong face validity of representing the key
thought leaders in the business world. This is a tremendous
accomplishment for each of the people on the list and a great (albeit indirect)
accomplishment for BYU.
BYU has an honor code, which hopefully, will be manifest as business ethics.
Ethical behavior forces an individual to avoid ethical shortcuts and they have
to develop better skills and understanding.Dishonesty is the road to
I'm always a little skeptical of lists like this. What was the criteria
used to choose and rank these "leaders"? Is a Latter-day Saint on the
selection board?What the list seems to reveal is the importance of
mentorship. It is no accident that two of these authors have worked closely with
Christensen, who may choose to work with LDS colleagues more often. It is
arguably LDS social networks more than LDS principles that have influenced and
benefited these "thinkers"
There is yet another LDS author that absolutely belongs on this list. Greg
McKeown - author of "Essentialism" belongs on this list. He is consulted
by heads of state, top business leaders, and is changing the lives of many
through his powerful and simple leadership. Look for him to make the list soon,
but he should have made the list this year.
Not sure why this comment was disregarded by the DN police yesterday, as there
is certainly nothing offensive about it. So, I'll try it again...This list should include James (Jim) Quigley, a USU graduate and former GLOBAL
CEO of Deloitte Touche. He is a published author on the subject and
has the "real world" experience that some readers state is lacking in
the B-school professors.
Ahh the art of stating the obvious or the known, in a crafty and tantalizing
way. I actually have only read Ulrich and that was decades ago, but
having consumed a mountain of other "management" books (mostly on
command from others), I would hardly call management writers "great
thinkers".Besides getting the most out yourself and those who
work for you is pretty much just a lead in to getting as much money out of
others as you can. Hardly great thinking.
As a woman who is also a graduate of the Marriott School of Management, I am
really proud of these individuals. BYU is also over represented in the U.S.
Senate and U.S. House. We are also over represented in a lot of other areas.
I'm really proud of that. GO COUGARS!
Also impressive that 2/5 BYU grads are women.
On a typical university campus there are in effect two economics departments.
On the one hand there is an economics department proper, whose job is to sing
the praises of capitalism. And then there is the business school which is
concerned with the actual operation of a business. These guys are part of the
latter department. I know of no other discipline where this sort of split
occurs. For example, there aren't two English departments, or two
mechanical engineering departments etc.I know these business school
heavyweights don't concern themselves for the most part with
macroeconomics. But since there is a major crisis brewing in the macroeconomy
because of the hyper-concentration of wealth in few hands, I was wondering if
any of them would comment on this developing situation. For example, we now
have a regime where 20 INDIVIDUALS own more wealth than the bottom 160,000,000
people (I am a proud member of the latter). It seems to me this should be of
urgent interest to these men. I'm sure they have a valuable
perspective different from my own.
Sure, religious principles within a person is good solid foundation background
and the people mentioned in this article are in no doubt some of the best
successful thinkers and strategists out there. From their books and lectures,
three words comes to mind, "knowledge" and "common sense." They
possessed the "knowledge" and have the "common sense" on how to
put it to work. "Knowledge and common sense" seems to be diminishing in
"LDS culture has given birth to "a professional elite." In 2012,
Harvard Business Review published a piece titled, "How Mormons Have Shaped
Modern Management."Well this is indeed impressive. One of the
reasons for this preeminence is the pro-business attitudes of the LDS faith.
That faith is the most business oriented of all faiths. Some have even
speculated that the LDS Church is destined to become THE religion of
capitalism.But it also appears that this pro-business orientation
prevents any negative analysis or speculation about the glaring faults of
contemporary capitalism, specifically the massive concentration of equity
ownership we are seeing today. I wonder if any of these business theorist
heavyweights would inveigh on this critical matter. I believe
capitalism is heading for a crackup because of this concentration of wealth. I
would like to hear what any of these guys have to say on this issue.
Way to represent the Marriott School of Management!
The list should include James (Jim) Quigley, USU grad and former GLOBAL CEO of
What an incredible article!