Tanto says:"Groups that kills babies should NOT receive tax
payer monies. Period!"--- That would include the US Military.@Riverton Cougar:"Mathhew 18: 5-6 "5 And whoso
shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.6 But whoso
shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for
him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the
depth of the sea."--- Where were your complaints against the LDS
church throwing out the children of LGBT couples?@christoph;Utah adheres to the FEDERAL Constitution.@Anti
Bush-Obama;The "Nephites", like Harry Potter are
fictional.@cjb;A woman's body is HERS, not the
fetus'.@Rikitikitavi;Saying Herbert and
"wise" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.
@B.A.B/MarlboroDo you have any idea what side of the abortion issue a huge
majority of Utah voters stand? Leave religion out of the dialogue. Gov. Herbert
wisely sides with the overwhelming sentiments of his electorate.
@Riverton Cougar --"Fact check."Good idea.From Factcheck: "Several Republican presidential candidates have
claimed that Planned Parenthood is 'profiting' from abortions. But the
full, unedited video they cite as evidence shows a Planned Parenthood executive
repeatedly saying its clinics want to cover their costs, not make money, when
donating fetal tissue from abortions for scientific research.""Four experts in the field of human tissue procurement told us the price
range discussed in the video -- $30 to $100 per patient -- represents a
reasonable fee. 'There's no way there's a profit at that
price,' said Sherilyn J. Sawyer, the director of Harvard University and
Brigham and Women's Hospital's 'biorepository.'""Jim Vaught, president of the International Society for Biological
and Environmental Repositories and formerly the deputy director of the National
Cancer Institute's Office of Biorepositories and Biospecimen Research, told
us in an email that '$30 to $100 per sample is a reasonable charge for
clinical operations to recover their costs for providing tissue.' In fact,
he said, the costs to a clinic are often much higher, but most operations that
provide this kind of tissue have 'no intention of fully recovering [their]
costs, much less making a profit.'"You were saying?
This is a contractual law issue. The State of Utah has a contract with the
Federal government to pass through funds that the state is required to do under
contract with Planned Parenthood for services rendered. It is a moral issue, but
the State of Utah entered into the contract with Planned Parenthood due to the
State's benefit for the contract. The State, at some previous time, decided
to enter into this contract.
@riverton cougar"Fact check."I provided the name of
the district court, the ruling judge and the case number as proof that CMP is
refusing to produce the raw video.A search on "CMP 5th
Amendment" brings up many, many stories with the same details.If
you have other sources showing that CMP has finally produced the evidence as
ordered, citing those sources would do volumes for credibility.
Of course Herbert will lose. a STATE governor, has no right to withhold
"100% false. CMP has never released the source video. They have released
short edited versions and long edited versions, but have not released the raw,
unedited footage. In fact, they are fighting desperately to prevent the raw
video from being released."Fact check.
@Lyn 52 writes, "Gov Herbert should of done some investigating before
deciding to shut off funds to PP."I can guarantee you that Gov
Herbert consulted with his advisers and they all concluded that he could score
points with the low-information voters-- just like he did when he spent hundreds
of thousands of dollars of state money on appealing Judge Shelby's
ruling--all the while knowing that it was fruitless. The Gov knows
which side of the bread the butter is on. Take a look at his actions on the
prison move issue.
@cjb --"Any organization that makes money killing
babies..."Since Planned Parenthood doesn't kill babies, you
should have no trouble tolerating them.Fetuses are not babies."Any why it is required that our tax dollars go to such an
organization is really beyond belief."It's beyond belief
that my tax dollars go to subsidizing strip mining. "The baby
that a woman carries is not her body."First, it isn't a
baby -- it's a fetus.Second -- please explain why that fetus is
not the woman's body.You can't use DNA as your reasoning
-- as I've explained multiple times in other threads, chimeras also have
two distinct sets of DNA within their own bodies.You can't use
"future human" as your reasoning -- we can clone any cell in the body
and develop it into a human.You can't use "it acquires a
soul at conception" as your reasoning -- if a embryo acquires a soul at
conception, then identical twins (who split after conception) only have half a
soul each; and chimeras (from two embryos that fuse after conception) have TWO
souls within one body.So, please -- what is your reasoning? Be
re marxistThe baby that a woman carries is not her body.
@riverton cougar"The company's website...has them in
full."100% false. CMP has never released the source video.
They have released short edited versions and long edited versions, but have not
released the raw, unedited footage. In fact, they are fighting desperately to
prevent the raw video from being released.As part of a lawsuit in
California Northern district (case number 3:15-cv-03522), they were ordered by a
US District Judge Orrick to produce the raw, unedited video. They refused, and
attempted to invoke 5th amendment protections to avoid releasing that footage.
The judge has ruled that 5th amendment protections do no apply to producing
evidence, only when testifying.The release of the raw, unedited
footage is still pending.So why would an organization rush to
release heavily edited videos, but hesitate to release the raw footage? Perhaps
the raw video doesn't paint the picture they desired to paint.
@cjb "Any organization that makes money killing babies shouldn't be
tolerated period. Any why it is required that our tax dollars go to such an
organization is really beyond belief."Planned parenthood
believes what a woman does with her body is her decision. That is my view as
well. I don't believe a woman should have an abortion of a
viable fetus out of convenience. But it is her choice. There are circumstances
when abortion is justified, such as when the pregnancy has happened against the
will of the woman. Women like Planned Parenthood because that
organization puts their interests first. That's why substitutes for PP are
hard to find.
Any organization that makes money killing babies shouldn't be tolerated
period. Any why it is required that our tax dollars go to such an organization
is really beyond belief.
@Riverton Cougar --"...(Center for Medical Progress) is the top
result and has them in full."You are taking the CMP's own
word that they're complete and unedited, when both forensics companies say
otherwise?Seriously?"...people are discussing the
right to kill babies!?"Yet again -- US abortion rates are at a
40-year LOW.Keep trying."media is more violent and
suggestive, etc."Again -- seriously? Both violent and nonviolent
crime are down, but you're upset because you think *media* is too violent?
Which is worse -- watching a violent video, or watching a real-life
blood match? Playing a violent videogame, or taking a real gun and killing real
people?Real life violence is down, but you think the world is
falling apart because the *pretend* violence is up?"the babies
dependent on others for a while after they're born"Yes --
OTHERS. After the point of viability, **anyone** can raise that baby. It is no
longer dependent on the pregnant woman's body. But before viability, it has
NO independent existence."And they are viable quite soon.
"No. Viability is only reached after about 24 weeks. And less
than 1% of all abortions are performed after 20 weeks.
Planned Parenthood could be of great help to society, but has instead become a
thorn in societies side. Some of what they do is good. Some of it is very bad.
Perhaps Planned Parenthood could evaluate and change for the better.Good for Gov. Herbert and Judge Waddoups in their actions. They appear to
reflect what the people of Utah want. Hopefully, those actions will be upheld as
this moves forward.
"Where? Please point out exactly where they can be found and exactly who has
seen them."It literally took me less than a minute to find them
using a search engine. The company's website (Center for Medical Progress)
is the top result and has them in full. I can't vouch for who has seen
them, but no doubt they are available. I have a pretty good idea of who
hasn't seen them, though."Where is the evidence of this
'low moral fiber' of which you speak? Please be specific."You're asking me this on a comment section where people are
discussing the right to kill babies!? Priceless. But if you need more examples,
pornography is more available and sought after, definition of marriage is being
defiled, media is more violent and suggestive, etc."Until
viability, fetuses don't have any existence independent of the pregnant
woman, just like her own pinky finger."Aren't the babies
dependent on others for a while after they're born, too? And they are
viable quite soon. But even then, being dependent does make one less human.And do you honestly think PP is not spending more for abortions?
I watched the videos, they weren't as edited as planned parenthood
supporters would like to believe. Regardless, I am curious as to where exactly
in the law the government has no choice but to fund a private organization? The
contract was set to expire today, so how do they have standing to demand payment
continue without interference? I didn't know we lived in such a time when
the states have no choice but to provide contracts to certain politically
connected organizations, but here we are.I certainly hope the 10th
circuit isn't going to side with planned parenthood, but I won't be
surprised if they do, the rampant corruption has spread to all levels of
government, and no one is more protected than the people who write the biggest
checks to the people in power.
Am I living in a fantasy nightmare here?Why do so many low
information posters still believe that PP performs abortions for profit? Or that
tax dollars go for abortions? Or that abortion isn't legal? It is.
Sorry!If you don't like abortion being legal please move to a
country that doesn't allow women to vote or is ruled by a theocracy. But
here in America women have rights. One of them is whether they want to give
birth to someone's child or not. If you don't like
abortion then please support health care, birth control, and education! And by
all means, don't want an abortion, DON'T GET ONE! Just like if I
don't want to drink coffee I can use my free agency to choose to not drink
coffee! Funny how freedom works!
@Riverton Cougar --"The full videos are available."Where? Please point out exactly where they can be found and exactly who has
seen them.The videos shown to BOTH forensics companies were edited.
That's a verifiable fact."The moral fiber in society is at
an all-time low."Both nonviolent and violent crimes in the US
have been falling for two decades. US abortion rates are at a 40-year low.
Cop-killings are at historic lows. Even executions are down.Where is
the evidence of this "low moral fiber" of which you speak? Please be
specific."Saying that fetuses aren't living"Of course fetuses are living -- so is your pinky finger. But fetuses are not
children. Fetuses are not babies. Until viability, fetuses
don't have any existence independent of the pregnant woman, just like her
own pinky finger."And saying "not a penny goes to
abortion" isn't a valid argument. "Of course it is. The
fact that it isn't valid to YOU doesn't change reality. In fact, the
funds that Utah has tried to deny to PP were funding sex education and STD
testing. Oooo, we wouldn't want any of THAT, now, would we?
@Contrarius, er, iest, iestier, AuContrar,etc."The Bible itself
-- Numbers 5: 17-31 -- describes God advising priests on how to induce abortions
in unfaithful women. So please stop pretending that the Bible supports your
anti-abortion view."Didn't know you were such a gifted
bible scholar. Actually, I didn't read anything in the passage you offered
that would suggest this is some kind of abortion ritual, maybe instead a way to
cleanse....jealousy? If you can induce a miscarriage via drinking dusty water,
I would be very surprised. Better try and back that up with some science.Let's look instead at Commandments 1 & 6. #1 commands "No
other Gods before me" which would include anyone or anything which man puts
above God. Like the worship/defense of all things Planned Parenthood, for
example or the justification to snuff out one of God's creations. #6
"Thou shalt not kill" is exactly where the Bible supports an
anti-abortion view. Science is catching up on fetal development re: brain
activity and when pain is registered, etc. which will validate what people with
a conscience have been saying all along. Abortion is murder. Inside or outside
the mother's body - it's the same.
@ContrariusThe full videos are available. Please don't pretend
that they're not. Yes, there were videos edited for length, but the full
videos are available.The moral fiber in society is at an all-time
low. It's funny that Democrats defended slavery as well. Yes, slavery was
legal. Did that make it right? No. Abortion is legal, but it is definitely not
right.Saying that fetuses aren't living is like calling slaves
less than a person. We all know it's not true, but the liberals just want
to justify their actions. In the 1800s Democrats would probably have thought
freeing slaves was taking away their right to own slaves. Now they say making
abortion illegal takes away a woman's right to choose what to do with her
body.And saying "not a penny goes to abortion" isn't a
valid argument. You can donate to a school saying not a penny should go to
sports, but having that extra funding frees up the school to fund sports with
its own money.
Making us pay to enable abortions is like asking a hindu to pay taxes to support
Eliyahu.The Nephites had 400 years of peace with little to no
Government Intervention. Righteous People can Govern themselves and not be
treated like babies by a rouge nanny state. No taxes can go a long
way if people are righteous enough for it. Simple as that.
Abortion is not the issue.The issue of funding is not the actual
issue - although cutting off funding without following proper procedures is part
of the real issue.The issue is contract law. Planned Parenthood and
the State of Utah presumably had a contract. Planned Parenthood would receive
federal "pass through" funds in exchange for performing certain services
in Utah. I do not believe anyone has alleged they did not perform those
services. Gov. Herbert, by ordering the state to not pay those funds to Planned
Parenthood, has probably breached the contract. All contracts have termination
clauses, i.e. ways for either party to end the contract. Gov. Herbert's
order seems to have not followed those processes.
Religious functionaries running a muck pretending to be politicians. Utah, what
Republican claims to be concerned with "the sanctity of life" are hollow
and hypocritical. Look at how they treat mothers and children in their
budgets.Planned Parenthood, through its women's healthcare
services, does more to promote a genuine pro-life culture than any Republican
Utah believes in state rights; not in a court in Denver telling us how to spend
money. Herbert is a great hero of our day, and to say no to $20 million for
homelessness is also good. (He is willing to allot $6 million I believe) For
centuries people have had parents and grandparents warn them of living the
dangerous lifestyle, of the poverty that comes from having children outside
wedlock, and to believe in personal responsibility. Money is not the answer
to these things. Personal responsibility. And if you fall on hard times, go
to your uncle, rabbi, priest, parent, cousin, teacher, neighbor for help;
community will help you, family will help you. These problems are family
problems, not money problems.
@Riverton Cougar --"The group also put out the original,
unedited videos."No they didn't. The videos shown to BOTH
forensics companies were edited."Mathhew 18: 5-6"Matthew was talking about -- guess what -- CHILDREN.Fetuses are
not children.Yet again -- please provide ANY Bible passage that
condemns abortion. The Bible itself -- Numbers 5: 17-31 -- describes
God advising priests on how to induce abortions in unfaithful women. So please
stop pretending that the Bible supports your anti-abortion view. It
"The videos were so heavily edited, with overt intent to deceive.
That's now established."Established by Planned Parenthood.
The group also put out the original, unedited videos. The only people saying it
is to deceive is Planned Parenthood and those foolish enough to believe them.It is sickening to see such disrespect of human life.Mathhew
18: 5-6 "5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name
receiveth me.6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which
believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his
neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."Not my
Good. Herbert was just doing this as cheap political opportunism.
What one would expect from the disgustingly liberal 10th Circuit.
@Anti Bush-ObamaChihuahua, 00"I want no taxes period. Big
Government limits personal growth..."First of all, if you are
indeed living in Chihuahua, the taxes we pay here in the US are none of your
business. Other than that, paying taxes is part of living in a civilized
community. They pay for the roads on which we drive, the police and fire
departments that protect our safety, public health services, and many of the
necessities of life. Anarchy may be your life's dream, but most of us
prefer a civilized state in which to live. A look at Africa will show you
several failed states in which there is neither government nor taxes. Whomever
has the most and biggest guns there rules, and they will "limit your
personal growth" much more than government ever will. When scriptures tell
us "There was no king in those days and ever man did what was right in his
own eyes," it isn't describing an idyllic paradise. It's
describing a time of fear and terrorism.
The videos were so heavily edited, with overt intent to deceive. That's now
established. Multiple states have independently and separately
investigated PP and found no evidence of illegal activity.It is now
abundantly clear that our governor's attacks on Planned Parenthood are a
merely a craven political appeal to the willfully ignorant GOP base. That's
all it is.
The taxes are still enabling abortions. I dont want my taxes going towards
abortion enabling or war. I want no taxes period. Big Government limits personal
growth and I dont want to be in Kindergarten all my life which Big Government
surely treats us as if were are children.
If the state of UT. attempts to legislate religious beliefs into secular law you
can take it to the bank that said law(s) are legally and morally wrong.
Other states who have investigated PP have found no wrong doing. Gov Herbert
should of done some investigating before deciding to shut off funds to PP.
@samhill 8:43 p.m. Dec. 30, 2015The funds in question have nothing
to do with the "sanctity of human life" unless, of course you think that
contraception, sex education (including how to keep from getting pregnant), STD
testing and cancer screening threaten "the sanctity of human life." It's sad that you were deluded by selectively and duplicitously
altered videos. As has been shown by investigations conducted by a number of
states and agencies, PP did nothing wrong. The federal money going to PP is for
good purposes to an organization that works for the sanctity of life for women
(the actual lives in being in the equation). People who want to keep the money
from PP act to hurt those actual lives in being (as stated by Utah agencies,
even if funding goes to other clinics, there are not enough medical clinics to
take over their care of the PP funding is stopped).Thankfully the
10th Circuit ruled in accordance with the law and for the benefit of the actual
lives in being (the men and women needing the funding) and issued their very
Groups that kills babies should NOT receive tax payer monies. Period!
This shows that Herbert's knee jerk reaction was just that. His decision
could cause thousands of poor Utah women and even men to lose the valuable
health care that they receive at Planned Parenthood. Hopefully Herbert will
lose this terrible decision that puts lives at risk.Abortion
isn't always a good answer, but that is not what one dime of these funds
goes for. Those who rail against Planned Parenthood have no educated
understanding what this organization really does.Planned parenthood
has been shown to actually reduce the abortion rate through education and
programs that help people stop unwanted pregnancies. And whether
any of us like it, it is none of our business what any women does with her own
body. Surely not my business, and definitely the business of those who scream
the loudest about this issue.Planned Parenthood is one of the
largest health providers for women in this state. BTW where is Herbert's
expansion of Medicaid to help the poor? Yet another GOP failure at the expense
of the poor and uninsured.