I blame romance novels which are pornography for women. Women expect men to be
like the books. I could right a book about the perfect wife and woman. Then we
would see woman try and live up to a fictional character. Why is it not
romantic to get up early, go work hard at a job all day, then come home and be
with your wife?Why is it not romantic to spend a saturday fixing all the
things around the house that need fixing?Why is it not romantic to tell
your wife every morning and night that you love her and think she is beautiful?
I think it idiotic that the sole basis for measuring success is a college
education. Whenever one thinks himself or herself above another because of an
educational experience, without counting the life experience of others, one has
moved himself or herself out of the marriage pool. Despite the education gap,
there are plenty of fine men who are successful in their careers they have
chosen--whether it's an electrician, a fireman, or a plumber etc.--who in
their own way are just as successful as Joe College who spent four years earning
a B.S. degree. I believe that if marriages are built upon character and love,
they are going to be far more successful than marriages based upon level of
education in a university.
If you're a woman, and you have entitlement issues, are flakey, high
maintenance, and/or gaining weight, all of those "unattractive"
characteristics would make it even HARDER to find a man who would want to marry
There are numerous articles similar to this one, released at the same time. We
hear of MGTOW, 3rd Wave Feminism (now 4th wave is starting), problems finding
mates... and articles citing the same source material as all these previous
articles calling for legalizing polygamy.I think it's safe to
assume we're now experiencing a demographics collapse along with the social
and economic collapse.
Polygamy means that 50 out of 100 men will have 3 wives and 50 men won't
have any. No polygamy isn't the answer if you want everyone to be married.
The math really doesn't work out. And you reduce the marriage pool for the
children from those unions because they soon become related to each other. Then
children are born with medical issues or higher rate of death because they are
married to their 2nd half cousin who is also a bonus uncle. For so
long it was marry as soon as possible after the mission. That meant sisters
coming home at 22 from missions found everyone older married. Is Utah the only
place to find a spouse? The reason there are less men also is the men are away
on missions. 80% of the 18-21 year old unmarried men are away on missions. Only
60% of the unmarried women in the 19-21 age bracket are gone. I think the new
age being closer to each other will be a help. The stats are before the
missionary age change where sisters were not serving in such large numbers.
i am beyond the dating age, but when i was in my 20's the situation was
very much reversed. choosing a spouse seems to be harder for some than
others, regardless of gender,
So much male victimization going on! You earn more than women, you control all
branches of government, you head up an overwhelming majority of companies...and
yet you still have to blame women for your situation? Give me a break.
I was informed I needed a better "dating resume" to be considered for
the job/position of marriage.
Xert has had many a fun date in these situations by simply "pretending"
to be a suitable male. Since my halo could never glow as brightly as an actual
suitable male, I figure "why the heck not?" I get the dual benefits of
getting to pretend to be a suitable male and fun times with the suitable seeking
female. And boy, are they easy to fool! Once I start putting the moves on, the
suitable female starts losing all interest in suitable behavior and it's
katie bar the door from there! Xert generally goes back to being an unsuitable
male about five minutes after the date is over.
Both genders have their expectations too high for each other.
Part IITry this -- What does a woman stand to gain/loose with
marriage?What does a man stand to gain/loose with marriage?A
woman stands to GAIN just about everything with a marriage.while a Man
runs the risk of LOOSING everything with a marriage.With Divorce
rates at over 50%, and Women continually being given the house, cars, and
kids -- and 50% of everything the man makes -- REGADLESS as to who
was to fault...Tell me again the reason a man should get married?[And yes, I know women who have boozed it up, slept around, kep
the house, kids, and car and taken him to the financial cleaners for no other
reason other than didn't want to be married to HIM anymore...]"NO Fault divorce" has ruined "marriage" more than SameSex
marriage ever could...
@equusrider4Bluffdale, UTOk enough is enough. @ LDS LiberalI feel most of the men jumping in here are coming from a bitter and damaging
divorce and blaming women, the Church and everyone else except themselves for at
least part of the problem. Stop whining.This is the reality NOT tainted by
bitterness. 12:04 p.m. Sept. 1, 2015=========Ok enough is enough. @equusrider4Bluffdale, UT1. I am not
divorced - and have been married for over 30 years.2. I have been 100%
active for 57 years.3. I have witnessed firsthand over that 57 years the
disparity coming over the pulpits. [and I know the difference between
"Doctrine" and "oppression". and finally after 57
years -- of giving $100+K in tithes and offerings, 2 years to a
full-time Mission, 25 years in BoyScouts - [including 2 years time donated
Vacation timeoff from Work, lostwages and countless weekends for those kids] 6 years in Bishoprics, 4 years in Elders Quorums, Would I
trade it - NO! but to honest -- Trying to balance my stay-at-home,
non-working Wife, who goes Visiting Teaching once a month to
my endless list of Church responsibilities -- then4. I feel I
have completely earned my right to complain.
I believe many of the mainstream religions are toxic to men and treat men as
evil when they are not. The reason is many religions have determined that
classically male traits are a sin. While I was growing up LDS, as a boy, I
always made to feel I was going to a lower kingdom because I could not stop
feeling sexual feelings towards attractive women(something that was basic
biology)and therefore my male sexuality was intrinsically a sin even if I never
acted on it. This was exacerbated by the LDS church teachings that tell men that
masturbation is a sin, when nearly all men masturbate at some point in their
life. Additionally, many religions center around feelings, not logic and
disenfranchise men who tend to be more logical.
Girls are also rejecting short guys, fat guys, nerds, the balding, the shy,
etc.. Sure, guys are shallow regarding less attractive girls, but women have
their version of shallowness too. Guys aren’t blameless.
They figure that their relative scarcity entitles them to a hot chick. The
problem is that the hot chicks have their pick of guys. The average guys may be
able to get a gal a little out of their league, but they want the super models
and are waiting to get them. They too end up aging out of the program and their
choices become fewer and less desirable. They often just give up.Guys involved in porn need less shaming. The shame makes them feel like
they’ll never be good enough and so they give up and seek out more
accepting non-LDS girls. We need to show Young Men more love and encouragement
and letting them know that everyone has a favorite sin and that they are valued.
Condemnation and feeling like they'll never be good/worthy enough drives
Exacerbating the problem- LDS girls being told to only marry returned
missionaries. Guys not serving missions get rejected, especially by younger
girls willing to wait. Rejection pushes guys into the arms of non-LDS girls (or
porn) and thereby into inactivity. These non-LDS girls also see the man shortage
and gladly take them. LDS coeds may also reject guys without a college degree.
LDS gals often dream of being a stay-at-home mom and want a man who will make
enough money to allow that and reject guys who don't. This likewise pushes
good LDS guys toward women (often non-LDS) who aren't big on having kids
and/or want to pursue a career. Men need to be respected by their women and
women don't usually respect men who make less than they do. This leads to
less intimacy and women looking elsewhere. This pushes men to porn exacerbating
the problem.Guys hate spending 60 hours/week working to afford a
stay-at-home wife, several kids, a big house, etc.. and lose it all and be in
debt for a house he doesn't live in and kids he isn't can't see.
I am not a member of the LDS Church, however, I do have one question to ask:
"What type of church do you belong to in Utah?" I have never known an
LDS person as described above. Nor do I find the male LDS members that I know,
behave, dress or act anything like what has been described. Is this just a Utah
Are not the LDS church authorities mostly elderly, and older middle aged men?Perhaps are they stuck in the past?If they were mean and cruel to their
wives they may not have gotten dinner, clean clothes, companionship, love, etc.
Could it be that is why they encourage the men to be kind to their wives and do
better?Women are different now. Men are different now. Single, self
sufficient people happily abound through our society,We see so many of
them living the single life without any intent of marriage.They watch
their married friend'a marriages dissolve, both the church sanctioned and
civil marriages.Who wants to deal with that "tragedy"?Single
adults appear happy and fulfilled. They are always the favorite aunt and uncle
in their family, and with their friend's children.
@JHHINTON"skeptic: Your response has no merit..in the article or
in real life. But you are allowed your opinion."Actually, I
believe Skeptic is dead-on; and I thank you for allowing people to have
opinions.The secrecy (particularly the financial secrecy) is very
hard for me to get over. It is difficult for my wife too, but she seems better
able to "put it in a box" and see other positive things about the Church
(like caring for our members, etc.). Perhaps women are more forgiving of wrongs
and hypocrisy than men are.
I did laugh out loud when, after the mother's day gift and card at church
read something like "Mother's are like a soft rose petal...something
something", the father's day gift had a sign attached that said
something like "A man's responsibility is to ensure happiness in the
home...something something"I do sense the trend in church culture to
beat men down while at the same time telling women not to beat themselves up so
much. But I don't know for sure...I admit I could be wrong. Either way,
It's not like I take offense at it or anything...just try to check with
Heavenly Father and get a confirmation by the Spirit if that is something I need
to be working on myself at the present.
Regardless of personal viewpoint, I'd like to add that this article was
most likely written to encourage women who are having anxiety or other
difficulties arising from or concerning this subject. I see many comments on the
site that indicate the article is blaming one or the other gender for the
problems presented. Quite the contrary. It is obviously directed towards women,
much like General Conference has a Relief Society Session directed towards women
and a Priesthood Session directed towards men. Anyone who thinks this article is
here to attack anyone, they're wrong. Society has issues that encompass
everyone looking for marriage. That shouldn't matter. What should matter is
each individual's personal search for someone they would be willing to
share eternity with. There's a difference between choosing wisely and
choosing pickily; only God can tell that individual the difference, and even
then only if they are listening.I only hope that each of us will be
willing and humble enough to listen.
@Alfred"That could be because men are killed in wars."At least in the U.S., since Vietnam (so anyone under the age of 55) we
haven't had enough wartime losses to significantly affect percentages. Men
do tend to die earlier from higher rates of tobacco use, alcohol, car accidents,
etc etc but the primary difference is that in some churches there's just a
larger than national average gender ratio.
This has been an Issue in Utah in one degree or another for LDS folks since at
least 1847. I recall a related pioneer era story J. Golden Kimball told about a
newlywed couple the Morning after. The Groom didn't recognize his new bride
after all her appliances had been taken off. In exasperation the Groom called
his Bride, to "Sing, darn you Sing". During my tenure at the
Y in the 1970s. I heard stories of BYU coeds rising up in 4 o'clock hour,
to get their hair curled just right, on the Off-chance they might encounter, the
one, as thousands to students pass on the walk ways between classes.I've also heard tales of 70s BYU coeds never letting their Boyfriends
seeing them in Curlers. What a surprise to these naive 1970s vintage grooms. Did
they too command their brides to sing after their wedding night too? Well this continued LDS Arms race to snag a man doesn't surprise me. The
Single(Active)LDS Guys are taking advantage of this demographic anomaly with a
vengeance. But sisters, bear in mind, The Odds are good, but the goods may be
Why do the General Authorities continue to "blast" the men? All have
years of experience dealing with families who have major
problems......abuse....verbal, sexual, emotional, pornography, and infidelity.
That is why they repeatedly exhort the heads of households to honor their
Priesthood and their wives. They see so many women who are suffering. Women are
taught to honor and respect their husbands...some don't I agree...but most
continue to try even as they are beaten, cheated on, abandoned and shredded from
years of abuse. Married for 16 years, became the breadwinner when my 3rd child
was 2 months old which allowed my ex to seek further relationships because
"I did not have time for him", have another baby soon after....took care
of 4 small children...all under the age of 5, during the day while he attended
school and then I left for my swing shift job. Still not happy with the way I
responded to his physical, sexual and emotional abuse, he left. Sadly in 20
years of dealing with hundreds of women, the story repeats itself. Half his
paycheck? Not even close!! Still live at poverty level (with a college degree)
while he lives in a million dollar home.
D News: Why wasn't allowed through the first time?After
serving in two YSA Wards for over 9 years, I've found the biggest problem
by far is porn, followed by video game addiction. While MOSTLY male issues,
they strike at the very core--rendering these kids emotionally, spiritually,
physically, socially, and financially inept. Add texting and social media and
many of these young people are doomed. They can't succeed in school,
relationships, whatever. They can't commit because their lives are
fraudulent on every level.Some keep this hidden, marry and then
their lovely bride gets the shock of her life. Her husband is a fraud. She is
betrayed at the highest level and then is asked to forgive him and spend the
rest of her life trying to keep him in line. It's not her job to rehab
him. It was his parents' job to raise him correctly.Young men
and women see marriage crumbling all around them (in and out of the LDS Church)
and they are afraid to jump in. The young sisters have problems,
but it's mostly the guys.
skeptic Your response has no merit..in the article or in real life. But
you are allowed your opinion. Did you even read the article? I think not. It
was about the problem of women finding men to marry, across a wide spectrum of
religions and US life in general. As the father of 3 sons and 1 daughter--a
junior at BYU, I certainly feel for the youth of this Great Country and
Church.But it really was not that different when I went to BYU in the
70's. I for one, am very grateful for the Leadership of The
Church---that includes righteous Men and Women -- they work very hard to do what
the spirit directs them. Please, take time to pray for them and for yourself.
You seem bitter and mad. I do hope that you are able to over come that.
Wow. It looks like those of us in St. George need to meet downtown and have a
visit!!@BelieveInAmerica...Not sure how this works: Using
pornography as your excuse to shame men back into marriage won't work any
longer. Please explain.Agreed that women have addiction problems,
too, along with entitlement issues. Also not sure about the
"game." My spouse and I aren't involved in a game. We are in a
partnership with each other and with God. That doesn't include addictions,
scarlet letters, shaming or meal-ticket panic attacks. But it does include
honesty, thrift, forgiveness, and rearing of children in a two-parent household.
I can tell you this: all those attaching scarlet letters to men for their
addictions aren't going to bring them back to the marriage plantation any
time soon. Men have caught on to the marriage "game" where men are
forced by law to provide, even after separation. We see female addictions of
material vanity and idolatry as just as harmful.Using pornography as
your excuse to shame men back into marriage won't work any longer. This
has a lot of women panicking because they know their meal ticket is ending. Men
built the world we live in with all of its conveniences and comforts, all
they're getting in return is self-righteousness and raw deals. They've had enough and are willing to sacrifice marriage and family to
let the world crumble so it can be rebuilt someday again where we are respected
and appreciated for again.You have a choice, change your tune, or
accept the consequences.
I had a lunch date with a lady that was a CEO of her own company. She showed
up in a Lexus. I came straight from work in my UTA uniform. I could tell she
thought I was beneath her. GO to the LDS dating sites and browse the
women's profiles. I have found comments like don't even bother to
contact me unless you are six feet, muscular athletic build and finacially well
off. And don't forget an important church calling. I go to singles
activities and it is the same people that have been coming for the last ten
years. Most divorced woman I have dated blames their ex for the divorce.
Never admit that they could at least be partially responsible. I realize I have
my faults just like everyone else. A lot of it is careers. Some women have
successful careers, a home, their children, grandchildren.. Who needs a man.
To compound the problem, a very high percentage of so-called
'eligible' single men are pornography/sex addicts which makes them
absolutely not marriage material. Unfortunately, most of the women who marry men
with this addiction have no idea that the man they married are addicts until
they catch them in the act or the man eventually confesses, and even then, the
addict will usually lie, obfuscate, and minimize the problem until the woman
feels like she's going crazy. I'm not sure what the solution is, but
young women need to be made aware of what they will be getting themselves into
if they marry an addict. It's probably safer to just assume that the young
man they are interested in is an addict, and try and help them get into a 12
step program or something, than to naively believe that THEIR guy couldn't
possibly be into that stuff. It doesn't matter how 'spiritual'
the guy may appear, they are more than likely hiding their addiction and may not
know how to get out of it.
@dimelo"Or are you suggesting that all the members which
strongly believe the church should disassociate itself from Boy Scouts, which
now effectively promotes homosexuality, are wrong, and the brethren are
absolutely right in staying with such an organization (while they ironically and
vehemently condemn pornography)?"This is a major problem for me
as well. Through this decision, the Church has essentially declared that
homosexuality is completely normal and okay. At the same time they still harp
on and on about sex addiction with all these recovery programs they continue to
push day after day. Then you see these sort of articles bashing
heterosexual men and wondering why they are struggling in the church and with
marriage.I just see a huge amount of hypocrisy here. It seems now
that as long as the doctrine lines up with feminism, then it's correct
doctrine. It feels like it has been hijacked with liberal policy.This is no longer the same Church I grew up with my whole life. Something has
changed. I get that God reveals new doctrine, but not like this, not while
throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Of course, no one even wants to talk about the choices that women made to leave
the home in the vain pursuit of a career and how that affected men. Men
function best outside the home, no matter how archaic that view may seem to all
the women who are now leading the lives they pursued by choice, but now are
somehow wondering why they don't have the opportunity of being a wife and
mother. Men started disappearing when society thought it wise for women to
compete with them in the only area they probably felt somewhat validated as a
man, a job. Women "can have it all", but men have always known that a
mother was something they never could be, so getting a job was second best,
until women started taking that option away. At a middle school I teach with
lots of women. They apply their natural mothering skills at school and
can't figure out why the boys are so unruly. Boys need structure, but they
also need space and freedom. You limit the space and boys rebel. Give them back
the space to excel in society and men will suddenly reappear.
Interesting study. I haven't pursued marriage for a variety of
reasons. Perhaps the big one is that I simply don't find caucasians to be
attractive (despite being one myself, I lived in Japan for several years
including a mission). In the marriage contract, males pay an extremely hefty
price for our apparent "hard to control" attraction to the opposite sex
(divorce = wife gets custody of kids, pay child support, 1/2 assets lost, loss
of freedom, must be the bread winner, etc), so it never made sense for me to
consider it.Yes, I am happy with my life in a successful career
currently. No, I'm not a morally corrupt individual "making up for
it" in other illegal or shameful ways. People try to fear and shame males
into getting married in Utah culture (if he's not married, he must be xyx),
but the truth is, we can function normally on our own.
What is it with nearly every man on this comment board leaping up dramatically
to reveal that ACTUALLY Men have it HARDER than Women because there are a few
instances where men are disadvantaged, which apparently cancels out the many,
MANY more where women are the disadvantaged ones? I mean, I don't even know
where to start with all the fallacious vitriol the meninists are favoring
today.Gender inequality is not a zero-sum game. I'm a man, and
I have it SO much easier in this country than a woman does, because we exist in
a system that is geared to favor me in most of the ways that matter. Places
where a woman has the advantage over me are the ones where one must be
"nurturing" and "sensitive", and men can't be that, because
that would make them feminine, ergo like a woman, ergo WEAK. And it's the
same kind of bullcrap that favors me for things that are "masculine".
I think many sisters let themselves go physically. They expect men to just be
attracted to the inner beauty. Sorry, but men have hormones too. I find it
interesting that the sisters who complain the most about the men are the ones
who make the least effort in attracting them. Wear make upGet
into shapeGet a personalityWatch a PG movieGo after that man!
Don't wait for him!
"There's an oversupply of successful women..."That's all anyone needs to read to know what this article is really
Faith + Virtue + Knowledge:Are you suggesting that the brethren
always get it right, and are always unfailingly defending truth and virtue --
and truth comes from no other source? That would be nice, and we agree ideally
should be so, but conference-attending, right-striving members are suggesting
per the comments here that that may not always be the case. Or are you
suggesting that all the members which strongly believe the church should
disassociate itself from Boy Scouts, which now effectively promotes
homosexuality, are wrong, and the brethren are absolutely right in staying with
such an organization (while they ironically and vehemently condemn pornography)?
There are some glaring inconsistencies many faithful people are picking up on.
No wonder then we are losing so many of our young men -- and the greater point
from the comments here is that the leaders in the church may not be completely
faultless in this. Whatever they are doing, especially always berating the male
members not in leadership and backing scouting at this time, may not be
effective for the well-being of young men in the church as evidenced by the
already obvious outcomes?
You can hear whatever you want in General Conference. A talk telling men they
need to stand up and do more, is a valid one in my book. Between porn and
providing and holding down a job and being emotionally strong for your spouse...
yeah I'd say men are struggling right now. If Minecraft is more important
than your wife, there is a problem. And dare anyone say there is a problem in
General Conference without people getting upset that they heard something they
didn't want to hear. The wicked take the truth to be hard. The fact is, if
you are in tune with what you should be, you don't hear hard words but good
words.No where do you hear "all men are wicked" and "all
women are righteous". What is heard is what is needed to be said. I trust
it. I have faith in it. And to be honest I have a lot more faith in the
leadership of the church than I do the people who criticize the church. I'm
not a general authority and none of the critics on here are either. Problem
Thee are good reasons why men are quitting the church. One of the reasons is
because people have better access to information and truth. They feel betrayed
by the church not being upfront, honest and transparent with them, leaving them
exposed to the Mormon apologists pulling at straws and perpetuating myths. It is
time to treat members with respect and honest dialogue. Make available the
church records to the light of day for study, understanding and the learning of
truth. No more watered down or sanitized materials.
Sadly, Equusrider4, LDS Liberal's view continues to be much more common in
the culture than yours is.I like what you're saying but so far his
view is more accurate.
As men age they are much less likely to be emotionally manipulated, than
women.It's a bit easier when boys are teens but once the brain and
emotions are fully developed, the manipulation is less likely to occur.
Ok enough is enough. @ LDS LiberalI feel most of the men jumping in here
are coming from a bitter and damaging divorce and blaming women, the Church and
everyone else except themselves for at least part of the problem. Stop
whining.This is the reality NOT tainted by bitterness. What I
hear from the church for Men Is:You must serve a Mission, Get a good
education, Provide for your families,Share in the chores, Do
your Home Teaching, Magnify your Callings, Attend the Temple at
least monthly, Make time for your wife, Make time for your children,
and serve, serve, serve...Sisters, (Im one and Ive listened,
so I know what is being asked of me):You can and could serve a Mission, if
you wantGet a good education, Provide for your families,Share
in the chores, Do your Visiting Teaching, Magnify your Callings, Attend the Temple at least monthly, Make timer for your Husband, Make time for your children, and serve, serve, serve...
What is what is being communicated -- Brethren -- You must
serve a Mission, Get a good education, Provide for your families,Share in the chores, fix the cars, mow the lawns, paint the
house, take out the trash, Do your Home Teaching, Magnify your
Callings, Attend the Temple at least monthly, Make timer for your
wife, Make time for your children, and serve, serve, serve...Sisters -- Do not be depressed, You are loved, cherished,
and "better" than men.You don't need the Priesthood, and FYI -- most men are addicted to pornography.If this is
them message most Latter-Day Saints are also hearing -- It explains
why so many "good men" are feeling constant guilt for not measuring up
or coming up short in full-filling ALL their responsibilities, and/or also
being falsely accused or seeds of doubt and dis-trust are being planted at
Church that cause men to eventually leave the Church [because it is RARELY
Doctrine], and Why the remaining women are not able to find a
"good" man, or want a divorce because HE is an imperfect loser/jerk
I suspect that what we are seeing in these comments are largely a reaction to
the tone of the article. I appreciate the challenges that come from a disparity
between active single LDS men vs single LDS women. At the same time, it
isn't the fault of the remaining active LDS single men that others choose
to become less active members. And in Utah, while LDS single men might appear
to hold an advantage, once they are married the women tend to hold the greater
balance of power due to cultural bias in how Utah family law is applied.This isn't a one-way street and a man has every reason to choose
very carefully in this day and age.As for Church leaders, some
posters are critical but most of us don't mean to be. At the same time,
among many men of the Church, there is a perception that men are addressed much
more sternly than women at Conference time.President Burton's
talk really was refreshing.
Lot of woman bashing going on. I have listened to every General Conference for
years and have yet to hear the women bash the men, or the men, the women. I have
heard from woman speakers that we, as women, in the church, need to live up to
and respect the men in our lives, and from the men speakers, the men need to
live up to and respect the women in their lives. As a life-long single
woman, Im flabbergasted by singles who can't stand the thought of being
single; they are so desperate to marry, the choice they make may not have been
the best one. I would have liked to marry, but it didn't happen through no
fault of mine that I can see. But the lessons I have learned along the way have
been invaluable. Like the lesson that I can very effectively take care of
myself. I don't need the validation of marriage to prove my self worth, And
that there are far worse things in life than being single. In the end, I know
Heavenly Father will make all things fair and right and I'm at peace with
When I was in a singles ward in my early 30's, I met a gal that had been
dating a guy for over 3 years and he had no talk whatever of getting married.
When she told me she was tired of it, I asked if she really wanted to nudge him
one way or the other and if she could live with it going either way, rather than
continuing wasting her time. She agreed and we put in a plan of action. The
next Sunday we sat together in Church and held hands, making eyes at each other
during the meeting. When her regular boyfriend called on Wednesday for their
usual Friday date, she was to tell him "Sorry, I can't go this
week." If he wanted to know why, she was supposed to say "I'm
busy; I have plans." She did and he insisted on seeing her on Saturday and
when they met he proposed to her. He got the message and she was thrilled. I
laughed about how quickly he responded.
@Michael Hunt,i'm curious about your description of Church defined
manhood. I define it as being honest, ethical, faithful to your wife, have an
honest job and honoring your covenants. Giving time to your church tends to
keep selfishness at bay and builds character. Other than that, I can't
imagine a cookie cutter "Stepford husband" type supposedly required by
the Church. They don't specify your career, don't demand a certain
profession or income level. There may be some members who unrighteously do, but
the Church doesn't.Is there another kind of man that you prefer
So many comments against the Brethren. It makes me wonder who these younger
generation think they ought to look to for advice and counseling, or even as a
role model, perhaps.I married at age 37 and passed a few
opportunities when younger but I absolutely made the right decision as it turns
out. I remained active and committed that entire time. But I had to decide I
wanted to marry when I did, which is what may be missing for many young men.
Young women give signals to men, far too often, of two extremes:
Either they are sooo busy with life, education, work etc that they have time for
anything BUT a man, or they are waiting in a white dress at the door of the
temple with a bouquet in one hand and a recommend in the other, waiting to see
who happens to wander by. They need to balance the two, as do the men, and BE
the person instead of just looking FOR the person top marry.
So these men are supposedly looking for the perfect mate. Apparently these men
feel they are perfect and want that match. Are they perfect or using this as an
Young men want sex when they're 18. They do not want to get married when
they're 18. Before then we should teach them, men and women, about sex
more. Especially birth control. And pressure them less to marry.
The societal drift affecting men in general has also affected LDS men. It is no
mystery why many men are less prone to marriage than they used to be. To some
extent it is the same reason why there are generally less active LDS men than
LDS women. One word: Pornography.
I worked for a business once whose business model became obsolete through
external factors (especially the internet) and did not/could not change fast
enough to mitigate those factors. Perhaps we are seeing that here. My sons are more "self-actualized" than I was. By that, I mean that
they want to express creativity, seek knowledge, and contribute to society
today. They do not want to be spoon-fed and take orders in a top-down system
managed by older men. In fact, they view older men as being in their way to
higher achievement rather than as being helpful. They do not want to attend
meetings to learn their duty and what is expected of them, but rather to have
ideas and problems presented to them for consideration and action. The
(authoritarian) environment in Sunday meetings is antithetical to their
Wait - you mean maybe the Bishop that told me I wasn't married because I
didn't have enough faith might have been wrong?
I think a lot of the problem comes down to a very authoritarian or steep
top-down hierarchy, much more than ever before in the church, and this leaves
out a lot of men, especially men just trying to start out. The emphasis is all
on older Apostles and such, and many younger men leave when they perceive not
much is addressing their needs and concerns. Lack of incentive can drive away a
lot of men. Contrast that to the lack of hierarchy that will result when the
Savior, who's right it is to reign, does reign and all will be made equal
with him and family will be more elevated as the governing structure.
@Llew40:"LDS single men are very outnumbered by single
females..."That could be because men are killed in wars. Women
rarely are because men fight our wars. Women don't. Women are supposed to
stay home and have babies. Millions of (young) men have died, over the
millennia in wars. That will soon change, though, when women are required to
register for the draft and actually go to war with their male counterparts.@Nosea:"I have had the same thoughts as many are expressing
here -- General Conference is always about how wonderful women our..."The speakers at the conferences are reluctant to get critical with
women. Actually, it carries back to childhood where the father was the
disciplinarian and the mother was the parent who provided the love.
It isn't hard to find a good guy to marry. it is hard to find a good guy to
get sealed to. Cause lots of the good guys are leaving or are not attracted to
the LDS church. Doesn't mean they aren't good guys, but good guys who
are happy living a life separate from the church. If you can stomach that, give
them a try. If not... have fun being single...
Fascinating subject. The gender gap among active LDS single young adults seems
to be widening. And, I think one of the readers put their finger on the cause:
More young men than young women are going inactive. So, whatever the church has
been doing about retention of young men does not seem to be working. Maybe the
church should try something different. But, maybe it already is doing something
different with the lowering of mission ages. Also, maybe the single young women
could be more involved with reactivating the single young men. The gap
obviously needs to be closed as quickly as possible.
The title of this article has changed since this morning. It originally started
with "It's not you". The first line still puts the blame on men,
but it's a baby step at least.I think people are so conditioned
to think with a slanted, female-biased mindset, they don't even realize
what they're doing. Just standing in the checkout line, I see men getting
berated by their wives and girlfriends all the time. Male psychological abuse
is so rampant, it has been normalized.The "Suitable male"
has become an impossible bar to reach, and articles like this push it. After
nearly 60 years of feminism and the attempt to turn "brutes" into
perfect gentlemen, marriages are failing more than ever. Maybe it's time
to question this paradigm?No, of course not, "it's not your
fault ladies, it's just that we haven't pushed men enough to try
harder!". So they push and push and push, until men give up. And
that's what is happening, they're leaving because it isn't worth
it anymore. They're sticking to their hobbies instead, and that only makes
these women and their white knights angrier.
Actually within the LDS Church, the number of single men and single women are
fairly the same, it's just more single men inactive in the Church than
single women. No one really reaches out to those inactive single men at
all(especially the single women who say often "it's not their job to
reactive men") . I just find the fact so many LDS Single men
feel marginalized, kicked to the curb, and unappreciated to be extremely sad.
Meanwhile LDS single women without having any empathy, all expect men to
"man up" and sweep them off of their feet, through no effort on the
"And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat
our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to
take away our reproach." Isaiah 4: 1.
I have had the same thoughts as many are expressing here -- General Conference
is always about how wonderful women our, and how great the leaders are, but the
rest of the men in the church are somewhere just above pond scum in value. In
reality most of us from our daily lives know better, as women contribute to many
problems sometimes more than men do in our society and leaders are not always so
much greater as they purport.
Interesting commentary everyone. I look forward to the day when men in the
church receive more support. As others have said it gets tiring to hear the
gentle and uplifting manner to which the women are always addressed, it's
in stark contrast to how the men are talked to in priesthood session. There are
definitely differences between the genders, but perhaps those differences are
not as vast as we have been led to think. Men struggle emotionally too, men
often feel inadequate too, men struggle trying to find balance in their lives
just like women, and gasp, sometimes men even compare themselves to other men
and think they aren't good enough. Sigh, well at least I can
look forward to my one yearly article on here around fathers day telling me why
I am awesome.
As a never married LDS single woman over 35, this article nails it.LDS
single men are very outnumbered by single females and can therefore find every
excuse in the world to "play the field" They absolutely have the upper
hand when it comes to Date-o-nomics thanks to the wide selection offered at the
"singles ward buffet" Indeed, we should pity the LDS single man
for being so picked on, subjugated, and objectified. With so many plain and
homely single ladies with their college educations who will only divorce these
righteous men after exchanging the "I do's" is it any wonder these
single women only have themselves to blame for remaining single while the men
continue to search, hope and pray they might find someone to marry? After
reading the comments posted above, perhaps the article should've been
titled "Why it's so hard for MEN in religious communities to find WOMEN
@illuminated"Men are the real gender objectified in our
society"Says the person who forgets that a large percentage of
women have jobs these days but considers them all housewives...
Simple solution, bring back polygamy. With the advent of same sex marriage,
loving someone is all you need to get married. If the state refuses to issue
you a marriage license, assert your civil rights under the 14th amendment have
been violated and you're being discriminated against because you want to
have a legally sanctioned committed loving relationship with multiple women. If
you're denied this basic state sanctioned right to marry another person who
has reached the legal age for marriage in the state you reside, you should sue
to have that right.
@ Samuel the Liberalite,Hehehe... You reminded me of how I've
summarized General Conference meetings:"Sisters, you're awesome!
Just keep being awesome. Brethren, repent, you sorry lot!"Perhaps that is why I was so touched when I heard President Linda
Burton's talk this last April. It was a surprising breath of fresh air to
hear the men of the Church portrayed in a hopeful manner.
The church has moved from sole management to community management to the now
corporate management on the path to oligarchy theocracy, a major erosion at the
base should be expected. The church needs to reorganize from bottom up to
address the problem.
@illuminated:"How often do you hear this from female members?"Female members have no need or desire to eulogize their male
counterparts. Females hold the upper hand in the basic fundamentals of
sexuality... They do the 'attracting' while the male is the
'attracted.' And they enhance their power by their dress, hair
styling, makeup, exposure, etc. You don't see men wearing low cut shirts
or hiked up pants, do you? And, look around in church... what do you see?
Women can wear a endless variety of clothing styles, colors, and shapes. What
do men were? A suit, tie, and white shirt... which is taught from youth and
dictated by church authorities.
Why it’s so hard for women in religious communities to find men to
marry========== Boy, Where to begin...I think women bring most of this on themselves -- 1. Normal mortal
men will never be Jesus Christ.2. Women are taught they are Princesses,
and never settle for God's "2nd" best.3. Men must marry to
get into the Celestial Kingdom, do not.4. If a woman is divorced, the
congregation judges "HIM" as the being the reason for it.5.
General conference is NEVER judgmental towards women, but usually is towards
maybe due to the 'war on women' men now are fearful of offending women
and getting suied thus they have to be picky? Just a thought. Maybe the Fed Govt
should add a new 'single tax' to men who aren't married by 26.
Just trying to think like a liberal.
If anyone submitted a letter which made broad and unpleasant generalizations
about what "Mormons want" or "Mormons think", it would be denied
in a heartbeat. As well it should be.But you have several letters
already printed which make unpleasant commentary about what women, as a group,
want, or intend, or how they regard marriage. None of these were flagged for
being disruptive or speculative. Why not?
@Michael HuntIt's true. How many times do you hear the
following or something close to it at Church by married men about their wives:
"my better half", "more naturally in-tune with the Spirit", or
"I'm so grateful she puts up with me". I hear it almost every
Sunday. How often do you hear this from female members?Why should
any partner in the marriage be treated superior to the other just because of
their gender? Men are groomed from primary onward to feel ashamed to be male,
and that they are always supposed to be subservient to women.This
trend isn't going away or diminishing, it's actually growing because
of feminists both inside and outside the Church getting their way.The irony is that many believe the lie that it has been the other way around.
The fact that women spend most of their lives taken care of financially by their
husbands has been warped to signify that they are being repressed and held back.
Men are told to help more around the house, and when they comply, it's
still not good enough. They're still the victims, we're endlessly
Two of my sons are members of a YSA ward at the university they attend. Ward
boundaries are geographically determined and the vast majority of ward members
are students. But somehow my boys' ward bucks the broader demographic trend
among YSA wards in the area, since it is heavily lopsided on the male side. This
makes ward social events as awkward for my sons as is the case for women in YSA
wards with a larger female membership. While the larger demographic trend is
notable, all demographics affect people in a very localized manner as well.
After leaving the church shortly after a mission it's been an interesting
spectacle to see the LDS marriage market become so gender-lopsided as the
pressure on LDS male conformity continues to conflict with a basic understanding
of human nature that is becoming more accessible thanks to various internet
mediums. One would assume that those remaining are taking their time sifting
through all the options to ensure the right choice, but there is more internal
conflict among the men that needs to be accounted for. The choice men are
struggling with isn't which particular woman to settle down with, but
rather the trade off being presented where they are free to pursue a more
authentic, self-driven ideal of manhood or the inauthentic, manufactured version
from the church. I personally made the choice long ago and have never looked
"LDS doctrine 'also provides that those who are unable to marry in this
life but remain faithful will have that opportunity in the eternities,'
spokesman Eric Hawkins added."I hope people will not stake their
chance for happy relationships in this life for the unsubstantiated hope of
marrying after they're dead.
After decades of males being pushed to the sidelines in schools, being taught by
society (and primarily female teachers) that unless they act and learn like
their female peers, they will be disciplined and medicated, is it any wonder men
aren't rushing to fulfill their potential?There was an article
on DN a few years ago about the war on boys, which was generally dismissed in
the comment section. Unfortunately, there are too many people who make their
livings making sure that men continue to feel guilt simply for being born male.
Fascinating article. I was not aware of the disparity between active LDS men vs
LDS women until the last year or two.There are absolutely some
cultural factors. For example, while I was at BYU it became trendy among coeds
to say that they don't want to date or get serious with any man because
they were going on missions instead. There may be an intimidation factor if a
young man is getting his bachelor's degree and the woman he's dating
is working on her master's degree. She may be in a better position to
provide financially than he is.According to a neighbor who practices
family law, nearly 90% of divorces in Utah are initiated by the wife.
Considering how a man can be reduced to indentured servitude through child
support and alimony, I can imagine how that would give a lot of potential
suitors pause.Just a few variables to consider. I'm sure that
there are many more.
One more article from the religious types blaming men again. Could this article
be any more demeaning to men and giving women a pass? I remember
many talks and books and articles written by people in this state that
perpetually blamed men for failed marriages and for the failure of women to get
married. If the woman decides that "he doesn't understand
me" or, he doesn't connect with me, or any other rather benign trait
that she conjures up that may likely not be that big a deal, how are we
surprised to learn that about 70% of divorces are filed by women? What man
wants to be part of that and be saddled with paying years of alimony and child
support while having his kids ripped from him?I think the problem
lies with both women and men equally, for some differing reasons, yet with some
common issues they collectively have.
Men Are Going Their Own Way (MGTOW). Marriage no longer has any legal value for
men anymore. A woman has all the power to leave that marriage at any time, take
half his assets, the children and his paycheck for years to come.For
a woman, marriage is like getting a free EBT card, life insurance, and
subsidized housing all in one. Once a man ties the knot, he is legally required
to provide this to her. She has all the power to legally levy fines, jail, and
public shame to him with absolutely no fear of reprisal.Men are the
real gender objectified in our society. They are objectified like a utility,
their ability to provide and sacrifice. When the ship goes down, they go down
with it. When they are no longer able to, or no longer choose to do this, they
are punished and eventually tossed away for a new, shinier replacement. As this
article illustrates, they have nobody fighting for them, you see, it's all
the males fault, no matter what. The woman always gets the benefit of the doubt
and support in any situation.