@Tilee"The first year my oldest son went to scout camp in Texas he had
a merit badge counselor who was openly gay and flaunting it. My son came home
completely disgusted by the experience and never wanted to go to camp again. Now
this will be considered a condoned and acceptable practice by leaders in the
BSA. How scary is that!!! The bottom line is that for a young man
who does not have problems with homosexuality "Interesting what
is considered a "problem with homosexuality". I think your story did
include a young man with a problem with homosexuality, it just wasn't the
one you thought it was.
Two thoughts spring to mind:1. The press release of the church
stated that: "As a global organization with members in 170 countries, the
Church has long been evaluating the limitations that fully one-half of its youth
face where Scouting is not available.." Having lived in the U.K from
1989-2008 I can say that the absence of any sort of scouting program did not
have any impact on the Young Mens organization. My son did not miss out; he
served a honorable mission, married in the temple, etc. The church more than
adequately fulfilled the needs of the Young Men, not only in the U.K., but also
in other parts of the world where scouting doesn't exist. 2. While
the standards of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints won't be
directly impeded, the church still determines whom they will allow to be
leaders, there is the serious threat of the church being taken to court. Should
that happen, the National Council of the BSA will wash their hands of it,
leaving, not only the LDS Church, but other faith based groups out to dry.
"but we will have no control over who is hired to run the camps, merit badge
workshops, jamborees, day camps, etc."Thank you for your
honesty. It really is about "control", then.
"The LDS Church does not force it's views on you or anyone."Seriously...?Do you contend that the Church's direct,
negative interference with Prop 8, the massive money they poured into negative
campaigning, all of that never really happened?Do you contend that
the LDS church had no impact on passing Amendment 3 over a decade ago?
@Jimbo Low"The organization is getting further from the Mormons
and closer to the Unitarians"Sounds to me like they're on
the right path, then. Unitarian services are about the warmest and most inviting
meetings I have ever been to.
The organization is getting further from the Mormons and closer to the
Unitarians--I think it is clear the direction they are going; further from God
and closer to the world.
@worf --"Churches are not leaving the Boy Scouts."Well, you're pretty much right about that. Both the United
Methodists and the Roman Catholics, the two largest faith-based BSA groups aside
from the LDS, have already announced that they're staying. And other groups
that had left because of BSA's discrimination, like the Reformed Jews and
the Unitarian Universalists, are rejoining.
Churches are not leaving the Boy Scouts.The Boy Scouts are leaving
I feel like taking my Eagle Scout badge out of the box (once I find the box)
that I put it in years ago and find out how I can now give back to Scouting what
I had promised years ago. Thanks BSA! I'm sure glad I didn't mail my
Eagle Scout badge back to BSA headquarters a few years ago when I was tempted.
A lot of youth could benefit by the moral compass offered by the BSA. The
Mormons should move away from the organization with caution, as both still have
a lot to offer each other.
@Tilee --"The bottom line is that for a young man who does not
have problems with homosexuality - having a homosexual male make advances at you
is scary and loathsome!"And why do you believe gay leaders would
be doing any such thing? Have the straight female BSA leaders been
propositioning scouts? Have the straight male GSA leaders been abusing girls?
Have the lesbian female GSA leaders been making improper advances?What leads you to believe that this would be a problem, when the other
pairings have been allowed for years?
Several readers have stated that they do not understand the problem since the
church can choose it's own leaders. That is true only for the leaders
directly over our weekly scouting activities, but we will have no control over
who is hired to run the camps, merit badge workshops, jamborees, day camps, etc.
While that might not be as great an issue here in Utah, we have experienced the
problem already in TX. The first year my oldest son went to scout camp in Texas
he had a merit badge counselor who was openly gay and flaunting it. My son came
home completely disgusted by the experience and never wanted to go to camp
again. Now this will be considered a condoned and acceptable practice by
leaders in the BSA. How scary is that!!! The bottom line is that
for a young man who does not have problems with homosexuality - having a
homosexual male make advances at you is scary and loathsome! Sending our boys
to activities where they could be left under the sole leadership of gay men is
not something I will subject my sons to.
@Uteofferouus --"If we use the comments on this board as a
gauge, it is appears that there is precious litte tolerance or understanding
shown by the LGBT community toward conservatives of faith."Tolerance and understanding start when second-class citizenship stops.In more than half of all US states, LGBTs can still be fired, thrown out
of their homes, or denied services just for being LGBT.You can start
talking about tolerance and understanding when that is no longer true."I think it would be more honest for them just to fess up that their
definition of morality is different than ours"Of course it is.
The morality of LGBTs and LGBT supporters emphasizes love and equality."but that they can respect and understand our beliefs and simply agree to
disagree with civility and move on."There is no true civility on
your part when your side continues to deny full citizenship to LGBTs.
@Mike Richards --"Men are not leaders of girl scout troops for a
reason."Actually, straight men have been leaders of girl scout
troops for years. So have lesbian women. And straight women have
been leaders of boy scout troops for years. What makes you believe
otherwise, Mike?@joanzone42 --"putting young boys
under the authority and care of male leaders who are attracted to other males is
irresponsible"See my comments to Mike above. Why is having gay
male BSA leaders irresponsible, when straight female BSA leaders are not? When
straight male and lesbian female GSA leaders are not? Why is only one of these
pairings irresponsible, when the others have already worked for years?
Years ago, I had to deal with the attorney general's office re: a
pedophilia case. The Assistant AG wouldn't let his boys participate in the
BSA due to the stacks of pedophile files he was dealing with in Utah. Morally,
what's the difference between enacted pedophilia and enacted same gender
attraction? You say, "Age, consent." But, I think it goes further than
that. I would add, "Moral relativism." When will pedophiles be
accepted by the BSA? Are we heading that direction?United under
God's laws, i.e. the Ten Commandments, we stand; divided we fall.
@Libertal Ted:Thanks for your comments, you hit the bulls eye!If we use the comments on this board as a gauge, it is appears that
there is precious litte tolerance or understanding shown by the LGBT community
toward conservatives of faith. I am baffled as to how the LGBT folks exptect us
conservatives to be more open minded toward their concerns and life styles when
they throw our concerns, rights and beliefs under the bus?I think it
would be more honest for them just to fess up that their definition of morality
is different than ours but that they can respect and understand our beliefs and
simply agree to disagree with civility and move on.All of the LGBT
group's emphasis on law suits, forcing conservatives out of their jobs and
other social affronts are doing nothing to elevate their cause in our
conservative Christian eyes. Despite the LGBT malfeasance of
citizenship, we conservatives of faith should strive to be forgiving and civil
in our approach to these folks while standing up for our religious faith and
first amendment liberties. LGBT folks have rights and responsibilities too and
we should recognize that.
I wonder what the new scout oath will be now? Any guesses?
BOY SCOUT OATHOn my honor I will do my best To do my duty to
God and my country and to obey the Scout Law; To help other people
at all times;To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and
morally straightPretty much says it all. I imagine the scouts will
eventually remove "duty to God" and "morally straight" from the
oath to fit with their new direction. Time to pull out before it gets to that
Even more interesting is that fact that the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the
BSA being able to discriminate based on gender, just a few years ago. A private
organization has the right to determine the requirements and eligibility of
people that want to join.The fact is Gates sold out the BSA.
He's a by product of the Obummer/Biden Big Mouth liberal agenda. He simply
sold out the BSA.Either way, out of the ashes of the BSA will come a
bigger and better and stronger organization to teach our youth. One that is
inclusive and won't discriminate based on religious beliefs. Something the
LGBTQ community needs to learn. They love to cry victim, but, while yielding
the hatchet to other people's opinions and beliefs.We were
lectured same sex marriage is not a slippery slope. Yet here we are. Slip
sliding away. So much for building bridges.
My family has Eagle Scouts and I have always been a supporter of the BSA,
including the policy of non-discrimination for young men who identify as gay.
But, putting young boys under the authority and care of male leaders who are
attracted to other males is irresponsible and inevitable (e.g. at Jamboree) and
the promise to allow local units to decide is a farce and will not last. There
WILL be lawsuits and various pressures, which will eventually bury those who
try, naively, to make a deal with the devil. Better for The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints to cut loses now and launch a wonderful, worthwhile
program for young men. It is a sad, but necessary step.
@dmcveyExcept that when a church quits the BSA, a noteworthy change
in the status quo happens for many people. When whomever you are referring to
as "we" criticizes that church, nothing happens, nor should it. Yes, it
is pretty simple. Let's keep it that way.
@SlickMick --"Gay marriage was never the law of the land
anywhere. Ever."This is a common, but false, misconception. In
reality, same-sex behaviors and bonding have been accepted in various forms
throughout history and across the globe.--SS unions were recognized
in Mesopotamian legal records.--Assyrian religious texts included
blessings for SS unions equal to OS. --SS bonding was encouraged in
ancient Greece.--SS unions were recognized in Egypt; we even have a
well-preserved tomb with specific depictions of a SS couple united for
eternity.--SS behaviors and bonding were widespread in the Roman
Empire. SS marriages were well known since before 600 BC, and weren't made
illegal until 342 AD.--SS unions were recognized in parts of China,
including legal contracts and elaborate ceremonies.--SS behaviors
and bonding were honored in Japan, especially amongst Buddhist monks and
samurai.--legal SS unions in medieval France were created through
"affrement" contracts.--SS unions were widely recognized in
Native American societies; a "third gender" (men who took women's
roles) was not only recognized but honored. Homosexual behaviors were so
widespread in the Americas that the Conquistadors would brag about how many
"Sodomites" they could kill in a day.
I am a heterosexual male. I can tell you that those of my makeup admire the
female form continually. Yet, most of us could be leaders in female membership
organizations. Why? Because we understand limits and propriety. The same is
true of most homosexual men with reference to the Boy Scouts. Of course strict
rules must be in force.
The BSA used to be a tremendous organization that fit in line with the LDS
Church's emphasis on a "Duty to God" and teaching boys to up hold
that duty through a strong moral character. There change in policy abandons that
concept. I don't know what my LDS leaders will do but if we do leave the
BSA because they are not aligned with our values I will support them 100%. It
is sad when a great organization succumbs to peer pressure and abandons its core
principles just to satisfy those in society who want to follow a different path.
@worf "A male finding another male sexually attractive,- can now be a
leader of boys? What?"I guess you would kick the founder, Robert
Baden-Powell - out of the scouts. Shame on you!
I think the thing that makes me scratch my head the most about the larger issue
of gay rights is all the accusations of discrimination hurled by so many gay
marriage supporters towards non-proponents. I get it that some people are gay
and want no obstacles in enjoying whatever benefit hetero married couples enjoy.
I understand. If I were gay, I'd probably want the same thing.But all the diatribe against non-proponents of gay marriage? The accusations?
The bigotry? Seriously! People, gay marriage is a really big change from the
status quo. And the status quo has existed from forever. Gay marriage was never
the law of the land anywhere. Ever. Mandating women's rights has historical
precedent. People have been naturally free over history so there is precedent
against slavery. Same for religion. But gay marriage is new, without
precedent. So why are non-proponents called names and bullied by proponents?
People need to chill a bit. If this is what society wants, then there you go.
But enough acting like it's some right that's ever existed before.
I am pleased that the Boy Scouts has taken this courageous step that attempts to
balance concerns for greater inclusion with respect for religious beliefs. If
the new policy is more than the Church leadership can abide, then the LDS Church
is free to severe ties and go its own way as it always has.
@CatsI have been saying for the past couple of years we are seeing a
separation of the sheep and goats in the world and more specifically the church.
From women in the priesthood, to rainbow flags on FB profiles, now BSA.@PhineasGaugeYou underestimate the financial department of the LDS
church. If they withdraws from BSA, there will be less financial costs assumed
by individual members. Friends of Scouting and annual fees is an imposition of
BSA, not the church. I doubt there will be expensive uniforms and a plethora of
badges associated with a more streamlined YM activity program. Any new program
such as this instigated by the church will be funded through the tithing system
already in place. 10% will still be 10%. "...you should also
have a problem with a male coaching any female sports team... or any other mixed
gender supervisory role."Apples and oranges - BSA takes kids
away from parents for days at a time into the wilderness. Any male coach who
packed up his female basketball team for an over nighter in the secluded woods
would be extremely suspect IMO. That's a team my daughter would not play
"And no church will be required to accept any volunteer as a Scout leader
simply because of the new policy."Yeah, how long do you think
that will last?
For many years the homosexuals have attempted to influence others and who is
more vulnerable than our youth today? Those that believe it is nt a threat
apparently are blinded by their own desire to encourage this life style or they
have just been influenced by so much publicity and not willing to resist this
issue. It makes no sense what so ever.
After reading these posts and posts on similar threads, I can see that it is
time for every Church to cut the ties with the BSA. Men are not leaders of girl
scout troops for a reason. When men who have sexual feelings for other males
are allowed to lead boys, those boys are in just as much danger as having
hetralsexual males as a girl scout leaders. Their intentions may be good, but
society is wise enough to protect those girls by removing even the possibility
of misconduct. Unfortunately, it looks like boys are a different case.No matter how much homosexual scout leaders protest to the contrary, I would
never allow my sons or grandsons to go anywhere with them for any reason, inside
scouting or outside scouting. I don't know anyone who would put his son or
grandson in a position where that boy could be exposed, in any way, to
homosexual ideas or actions.
The newly announced policy allowing a religious group sponsoring a scout troop
to choose its adult leaders whose beliefs are in line with church teachings is a
quite reasonable accommodation the Boy Scouts are making. The Reform Judaism
group and the Unitarian Universalist Association appear to feel that way too.
Boy Scouts was always a religious organization from back in Baden Powell's
days. Why do you think Baden Powell placed so much emphasis on God? BSA has
moved from those beginnings to become a much more secular institution while
retaining a certain lip service to God. BSA and the LDS Church have led a
mutually beneficial existence for over 100 years, but perhaps BSA has outlived
its usefulness to the LDS Church. The LDS have a pretty good handle
on what they need as well as the critical mass to make it happen. You do realize
that the BSA Varsity Scout program is basically a creation of an LDS member in
SLC back in the 70s. There is plenty of talent within the Church to be able to
tailor something to the needs of the youth. I think the real issue for the
Church if they ditch BSA is that there will be some small subset of boys who
then will quit coming to Mutual night and instead attend BSA meetings with other
troops. Difficult decisions indeed.
Really???, I don't understand what is militant about wanting to be able to
participate in Boy Scouts. I think it's kind of militant to go to the
Supreme Court in order to be able to discriminate against people you don't
like based, not on their actions, but on your opinion of those people.
McCarthyist, The church has the right to quit the BSA, we have the right to
criticize the church for it. It's really pretty simple isn't it?
Mesa Coug, no one has said the church should be FORCED to continue their
association with the Boy Scouts. Where did you get that idea?
@tennerifaNo need to be like that. Your attitude is worse than the
one you complain about. People can disagree with BSA. They don't need the
self-righteous to try to make it worse or condemn them for disagreeing. You
know, we have a situation where the status quo has been changed, and some people
don't like that. Which one is worse...to complain because the
status quo has changed or to complain because others aren't willing to
change their long-held beliefs to a new normal? If anything, anyone with decency
would give some slack to those who are being asked to change from what they have
been accustomed to for their whole lives instead of being so judgmental and
Really only 2 reasons why a gay adult male would want to be a scout
"leader". Those of us who don't lie to ourselves and the rest of
society know why that is. My neighborhood, along with most all of you, has a
registered sex offender, (pedophile) living in it. Claims he was born that way.
When are the scouts and the rest of society going to start forcing his
"civil rights" onto the rest of us?
"Sad because many of us have sought to find ways to peacefully and
productively work to improve relationships with the gay community. Personally, I
am having to re-think my stance toward gays because (at least the supporters who
comment here) appear to be so militant and uncompromising in their views that it
is not clear if they can act in good faith with conservative citizens?"Perhaps you have tried to be respectful, and I thank you for that. You
do realize, however, that nobody--whether gay, straight, black, white, or
freckled--should have to wait for the conservative citizens' approval to
have the same opportunities as anyone else in this great nation. Any attempts to
exclude people based on a single trait will likely be challenged by those you
are trying to exclude.Quite frankly, it's not your place to
decide what I can or cannot do.
One who has had his son abused by a gay person -- I say leave the BSA -- you
don't have to give up your principles to appease a few individuals who
insist on you conforming to their low standard. This is only the beginning of
concession that will be demanded -- Just like the same sex marriage issue.
I look back to my days in boy scouts and I never would have guessed that I would
feel the way I do now. Being gay, I find it extremely offensive the way others
treat us! I wonder if I would put so much trust in Mormon leaders if I knew what
was going to happen to me later on Of course, it really doesn't matter much
what a gay person thinks or feels about it, does it? Some people are expendable
and that is how we are treated as far as many religions go. People spite
themselves to maintain their hatred and their self righteous attitude towards
others. More power to you.
Many are going to whine about religions ash-canning their involvement with the
BSA, over core tenets that the whiners don't understand and don't
like, but that's just too bad. If you are not a staunch adherent of that
religion, then their actions are none of your business, so quit trying to weigh
in. If you are a staunch adherent, then you're simply out of line.
It's really pretty simple, isn't it?
Religious groups messed up the boy scouts by turning them into a discriminatory
organization and now they want to abandon it. These groups destroyed a great
institution. I hope BSA comes out of this better than ever.
"There is no religious 'side' of the movement. The whole of it is
based on religion, that is, on the realization and service of God."
Baden-Powell, founder of the Boy Scouts.This is now the Boy Scouts
of America in name only. It has completely abandoned what it was based on in
the first place. There is no excuse, or argument to say otherwise. The LDS
Church should be done with this program yesterday or they too are supporting an
organization in direct contradiction to its own teachings.
The BSA has betrayed the boys. At every meeting, the scouts raise their arms to
the square and repeat the following oath: "On my honor, I will
do my bestTo do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout
Law;To help other people at all times;To keep myself physically
strong, mentally awake and morally straight."They swear to do
their duty to God by keeping themselves morally straight. The BSA has made it
difficult for the scouts to honor God and to keep themselves morally straight
when it has approved allowing adult leaders who not only have abandoned that
oath but who threaten to sue the BSA if the BSA won't allow them to
"lead" boys. No clear thinking religious organization would continue to
associate with the BSA.
There have been gay Scout leaders for years, since the days of Baden Powell. The
only difference now is that the gay leaders don't need to lie about it.If the Mormon church starts their own boys group, the same thing will
happen - there will be closeted gay leaders, forced to lie about their true
identity. Why is that a better situation?
It does not matter if religious organizations can choose their own leaders. What
happens when they go to scout camp and their are other gay leaders there?
@Misty MountainThe bishop should never be on the office with the
door closed and a female with him. If that were to happen that is against the
church handbook. If the bishop is interview someone of the opposite sex either
he has to have one of his counselors sitting outside the door or his wife
sitting outside the door. That is church policy.
Well I do think in the near future the LDS church will back out from under the
BSA flag and take with them the 2 million plus dollars that they donate to the
BSA every year.
Here is what the gay lobby says about the idea that chartered organizations can
exclude gay adult leaders: "Stuart Upton, a lawyer for the LGBT-rights group
Lambda Legal, questioned whether the BSA's new policy to let
church-sponsored units continue to exclude gay adults would be sustainable.
"There will be a period of time where they'll have some legal
protection," Upton said. "But that doesn't mean the lawsuits
won't keep coming. ... They will become increasingly marginalized from the
direction society is going." -Deseret News, July 27. It's not going to
stop. The Church needs to stop playing the game and withdraw.
“No church will be required to accept any volunteer as a Scout leader
simply because of the new policy,” Hanke said.This is a bunch
of bull. That was also said when they argued in favor of same sex marriage.
They claimed it wouldn't affect anyone or take away from their religious
liberty. Now you can be sued if you don't take pictures, make cakes or if
you're a clerk and refuse to marry or participate in same sex marriage.
The same with the attacks on the officer here that asked for a different
assignment, from leading a gay pride parade to doing something else based on
religious beliefs. Same thing in other countries. If you're religious
your rights are being trampled on by those that believe differently.So let's get rid of the myth that gay marriage is just two loving people
and that's it. It's gay agenda with the full weight of the
government, being forced down your throat no matter what you're rights used
to be and protect you from it.
Worf, if you have a problem with that you have should also have a problem with a
male coaching any female sports team, a female being a den mother or any other
mixed gender supervisory role. That is unless your opinion only extends to
Scouting was a great past-time....it may be going away for LDS youth; pity! I am
sure if the gay lobby weren't so determined to sue their way to their ends
this wouldn't even be an issue.
re:RanchI suspect there will be 0% of Mormons who stay with BSA and
don't embrace the new global young mens organization. Just saying....
In a year and a wonderful new global young mens organization in place in the LDS
church BSA will not be a topic of discussion. BSA will be minus a half million
or more boys however. My point is, I think members of the Church are exicted
with the chance to define our own path forward. BSA will have to cozy up to a
very secular and anti-christian culture which will be like swallowing a cactus.
@GingerMarshallIt's clear you do not like the LDS Church, but this is
still America, and I'm OK with that. I'm OK with your opinion, but I
will just have to disagree. Does't mean I wouldn't like you, if I knew
you, but our life views are just different. The LDS Church does not force
it's views on you or anyone. When a century long relationship starts moving
the goal posts, then both parties need to examine their relationship.
@worf, I don't understand your logic. I am an adult female who is openly
heterosexual. Some years back I spoke to our local bishop about our scout
troop. I was in his office with the door closed. He was also "openly
heterosexual". Should I have been concerned?@GingerMarshall--welcome back, we've missed you. Appreciated your
comments.And to the commenters who say that there will never be
another Eagle Scout in their family--do you plan to control your grandsons?
Your nephews? Do you believe you have that right?
Follow the $$$$$. It is all about MONEY. BSA operates via donations and
chasing corporate donors is key. I know a few professional scouters that were
"FIRED" because they did not GET the money for the council while at the
same time working within their district. When all was said and done, they
really made less the $4.00/hr considering the time they put in and how much they
were paid.The biggest part of the annual budget for most councils is
"Friends of Scouting" (FOS). These funds provide a majority of the
operating expenses for a council. The LDS Church has, in the past, asked all
the ward members to contribute to FOS.Now, depending on the state,
like UT, and how well FOS funds the district, it could spell the end to the
scouting movement in those locations. UT in particular comprises the vast
majority of memberships. They probably support FOS. If the LDS Church leaves
scouting, I can see UT BSA councils loosing a lot of ground, especially with all
the Council Camps which they can no long afford to keep up with the lose of $$$
and members.I will support any decision by the Church.
With the death of "morally straight" from the values foundation of the
BSA, the path for the LDS Church and other conservative faiths is clear.It feels like the cultural divide between conservatives and gays has
just gotten a lot wider. It does not have to be that way, but the
gay community seems heck bent on shoving their agenda down the throats of
conservatives. Sad because many of us have sought to find ways to peacefully
and productively work to improve relationships with the gay community.
Personally, I am having to re-think my stance toward gays because (at least the
supporters who comment here) appear to be so militant and uncompromising in
their views that it is not clear if they can act in good faith with conservative
citizens?I can guaratee one thing, if the gay community continues
its unrelenting designs to neuter the definition of morality, they will find
increased opposition on many fronts. No, conservatives are not the
"morality police", but if amoral positions encroach on our conscience
space, we will react. Instead of folks actively seeking to show tolerance and
respect, they may take a more reserved approach.
I look at this a bit differently from most of the previous posters. Given the
difficulties and costs associated with the potential lawsuits and other legal
issues that may arise--as there seems to be more instances where religious
freedom and societal mores are in conflict--I perceive Robert Gates and other
BSA leaders believe this policy change is necessary to ensure the BSA's
long-term survival. They may be correct.I hope the LDS Church
decides to run its own programs...programs they already have in place that are
administered throughout the world, and are currently administered in conjunction
with the BSA programs where BSA is available: Boys Faith in God Program (ages 8
to 11) and boys Duty to God (ages 12+). Many benefits are possible by
establishing consistency across all the LDS Wards and Branches around the world.
Some of the benefits include less expense, less paperwork, keeping track of one
award systems v. two, and increased local autonomy to better meet unit needs.
The BSA leadership made what they considered to be the best decision
for its program. Now the LDS Church, and other churches, have that same
opportunity. There's nothing petty, churlish, or selfish about that.
Even if the LDS church starts their own organization, there will be a lot of
Mormons who continue to send their boys to the BSA because they want their boys
to be part of a tremendous organization. From personal experience, the LDS
church using "callings" as a way to fill their scout leaders leads to
poor quality scouting experiences for the youth. Playing basketball (which is
all we ever did during our scout meetings in the ward house) is not of any
benefit to the youth.
@worf --"A male finding another male sexually attractive,- can
now be a leader of boys? What?"The BSA has allowed straight
women to be scout leaders for years. The sky has not fallen.The GSA
has allowed both straight men and lesbian women to be scout leaders for years.
The sky has not fallen.The sky is not falling, worf.
If the BSA cannot abide by church doctrine, they should be excommunicated, just
like anyone else would be.
The fact that BSA may allow churches to choose not to have gay leaders for
religious reasons doesn't mean those churches won't still be sued - so
they'd do well to leave the scouting programs. The program was started as
a moral program as well as outdoor skills and without the duty to God it
won't be the same program - similar but not the same. In some ways I feel
that is sad but life is about change, and I understand as regards the LDS church
the need for a universal, international program.
In the past, the BSA did not preclude other organizations from starting similar
programs that fell in line with their beliefs. As the article states several
churches left BSA because it was not aligned with their beliefs. No one forced
these them to continue to support BSA but they were free to make their own
choices. That is why I find it hypocritical of many posters on this and other
articles pretty much saying that the LDS Church and others should be forced to
continue their association with a group that now does not fall in line with
their beliefs. I say we cannot exit too soon and not be responsible for funding
an organization that is morally bankrupt. What ever happened to freedom of
religion and association?
@ CatsNo it will not devastate the BSA and we don't even know
yet if the LDS church will leave. As the NY Times reports today, only 17% of
scouts are in Mormon sponsored troops.Remember that a great number
of corporations, including the United Way, which is funded in part through
voluntary payroll deductions, stopped funding the BSA for baring Gays. Many
funders will surely return now that the policy has been straightened out.I think it would be a good idea for everyone to step back and take a
Some say The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints is being narrow-minded
because it can still choose its own troops' volunteer. 1)
Their troops can't choose other troops' or camp leaders when they go
to national camps such as Philmont. Nor can they choose camp leaders at
jamborees. Nor can they choose their council, regional, nor national leaders.
2) It gets to the point that the organization may no longer stand
for what we want to teach our young men. If the BSA wants to change what it
stands for, that's one thing. But then member organizations have every
right to re-evaluate if the new values mesh with their own. 3) The
LDS Church may technically be leaving the BSA, but in reality, it is the
reverse. It is the BSA that is changing the values it has espoused for over 100
years. The Church has stayed constant.4) I don't see The
Church criticizing the BSA. The Church should not be criticized for basically
saying the values just don't match any more. Why not leave The Church
A male finding another male sexually attractive,- can now be a leader of boys?
What?The Boy Scouts have re-defined morally straight, and has
Cats, you may be right. The LDS church is definitely wealthy enough to shoulder
this burden though I imagine they will pass that cost on to the scouts and their
families. The coffers must remain full after all.
Looks like a number of religious groups are against bigotry and discrimination.
Good for them.
I really hope the LDS Church leaves BSA and starts it's own program. This,
of course, will be devastating to the organization both in membership and
financial support. I think the time has come to separate the sheep from the
goats. I say this as someone who has six Eagle Scouts in my immediate family.
bamafone: "A once vibrant organization has seen it's better days and
now they no longer stand for duty, honor, God or Country."Agree
or disagree with this decision, it in no way impacts the concept of
"duty."Honor, as used in the oath, means "to fulfill an
obligation." Scouts will still, by all indications, be expected to do that.
In fact, more boys will be taught "duty" and "honor" since more
boys are allowed to join. There is no indication this decision will
change any part of the patriotic aspects of BSA - the implication that accepting
gay men will somehow remove patriotism is, frankly, insulting. And
finally, God. Your religious views will no longer dominate BSA as a whole,
although those views may be held by your troops. America - the one I know and
love - is about E Plurbis Unim, not about theocracy and mandated religious view.
Religious groups react to all kinds of things. But in the end, they're just
@Silver Stingray.Well stated sir/ma`am. Petty and churlish is a very
accurate description of their attitudes toward others, along with selfish and
controlling. Not once do these types engage in the smallest amount of empathy
toward their fellow traveler on life`s journey, but instead bemoan the fact that
all are not in lock-step with their particular point of view.These folks
would do much better with less judging and more pure Christian charity. I am
concerned about how they will fare in the eternities, with attitudes like this.
I understand why the LDS church is "deeply troubled" about the change,
as its own stance on homosexuality will never change. If the LDS church leaves
the BSA, it would be a sad, sad conclusion to a long, and mutually-beneficial
partnership. It also makes sense that other groups who had
previously disassociated with the BSA over homosexual policy are now interested
in reopening talks. I love the BSA and hope that some new associations may offer
hope that it will persist as an organization--because even if its morals are
eroding like the rest of society, I have a hard time imagining that it will ever
become a "net-negative" organization. It will still bless the lives of
boys, albeit at a reduced capacity than before it started abandoning many of its
core principles.I do believe the LDS church could do a much better
job of accomplishing its goals without the overhead of supporting the BSA, and
it will be exciting to see if there are any changes coming.
BSA is stepping aside and inviting activist groups to sue the sponsoring
organizations directly. The old partnership is over.
Those that do not accept the new inclusive policy only come off as petty and
churlish. They squawk about "religious rights" and the BSA has
accommodated them by allowing churches to choose their own scout leaders. Yet
they are unwilling to let other scout organizations do the same. As such, they
are just plain selfish and controlling.
A once vibrant organization has seen it's better days and now they no
longer stand for duty, honor, God or Country. It will become just another
neutered organization with no clearly defined moral compass and it is about to
get significantly smaller. I for one will never give support to it again in any
fashion. Three Eagles were awarded in our family, and they will be the last.
So a couple of groups don't like it, but several groups do like it and will
either start having Scouting in their programs or will increase their
involvement with Scouting now that all boys and all leaders can be part of the
program. This sounds like a net gain for BSA.
BSA new policy simply gives local charters more choices. And no church
will be required to accept any volunteer as a Scout leader simply because of the
new policy.I don't see this as a bad thing.