Join the discussion: How libertarian is Utah?

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  • anti-liar Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 27, 2014 2:23 a.m.

    Libertarianism is a Satanic counterfeit of righteous zeal for Liberty. It is a poison for society. It promotes, rationalizes, glorifies and fosters malignant greed and self-centeredness.

    Many employers, businessmen, stockholders and landlords love Libertarianism since it validates in their minds their proclivity for price-gouging, oppression and exploitation of workers in their wages, digging a pit for their neighbors, taking unfair advantage of their fellow man, and otherwise acting with little or no regard for society around them.

    It's self-righteous mantra is "Free Market Capitalism," but really the name of the game is, "Capitalism Without a Conscience."

    Society is suffering increasingly and the nation is being dragged further and further down as a result.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Sept. 26, 2014 7:06 p.m.

    to 2 bits

    "Hmmm.... still want to call yourself a "Libertarian"???"

    Lets look at some of the winners the GOP has trotted out.. Sarah Palin... nuff said.

    [I do think you can have your views... and still be a Libertarian, so I will never say "You're not a Libertarian". Because like I said... we are all over the place. But you should really know something about their platform before you declare yourself a registered "Libertarian".]

    There are different shades of Libertarianism. Give it a goog. Case in point... Gary Johnson (the Libertarian candidate for Potus in 2012) differs from Ron Paul who differs from his son.

  • hermounts Pleasanton, CA
    Sept. 26, 2014 4:19 p.m.

    I used to think libertarians were just slightly eccentric conservatives who carried a few of the principles of conservatism too far. But now I'm afraid it's come to the point where what divides conservatives and libertarians outweighs the things they have in common. Too many libertarians today don't stand for the traditional values that, for me any many others, are a necessary part of the conservative philosophy

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    Sept. 26, 2014 1:17 p.m.

    I am definitely not a libertarian. I would say I'm a good old fashioned Republican, which nowadays means I'm a Democrat.

  • freedomingood provo, Utah
    Sept. 26, 2014 7:54 a.m.

    Republicans are personal libertarians. They want to tell others what to do, but nobody should tell them what to do.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Sept. 26, 2014 12:13 a.m.

    @ronnie
    So you are saying most the people you know that claim to be libatarian are alright with government regulation as long as it is the states that regulate individual freedoms? I I am sorry but that does not sound like libatarianism it just sounds like a conservative tactic to do an end around the federal consitutional protections of individual rights.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Sept. 25, 2014 4:12 p.m.

    @2 bits
    Cottonwood Heights, UT

    Boy -- had to dig really REALLY deep just to throw some mud...32 years.

    I'll repeat for you,
    I've been a Libertarian for 27 years,
    therefore, I never voted for David Koch 32 years ago.

    BTW -- I'd also like to point -- You Failed,
    you couldn't do it without having to look it up, could you? F-

    Now, would you and your "ilk" please either STOP calling yourselves Libertarians,
    or
    BE the Libertarians yo SAY you are --

    support Same Sex marriage,
    legalize marijuana and victimless crimes,
    stop meddling in Foreign affairs and waging wars,
    stop using our Military for Global Police action,
    reform immigration laws,
    STOP handing out money to WallStreet and subsidizing Corporations and Businesses,

    Show some integrity, be consistant
    there's and old saying -- either buck-up or shut-up.

    Let the stoning continue...I'm used to it...

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 3:02 p.m.

    @Open Minded Mormon,

    About challenging people with questions like "Who was the Libertarian candidate last election"...

    Remember who the Libertarian nominee for VP was in 1980??

    If you said David H. Koch (yes... of the Evil Koch Bros)... you would be right.

    This is from Wikipedia...
    "David H. Koch was a Libertarian Vice-Presidential candidate in 1980. He advocated the abolition of Social Security, the FBI, the CIA, and public schools"...

    Hmmm.... still want to call yourself a "Libertarian"???

    =====================

    I do. I know what it means. It doesn't just mean you are an "Independent" or not a lock-step walking zombie (like the people in the 2 organized political parties).

    I do think you can have your views... and still be a Libertarian, so I will never say "You're not a Libertarian". Because like I said... we are all over the place. But you should really know something about their platform before you declare yourself a registered "Libertarian".

    ==========

    The Koch Bros are often vilified by hard-core Democrats. I think I've even heard YOU vilify them at times. But you know they are STAUNCH Libertarians... don't you???

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Sept. 25, 2014 2:43 p.m.

    RedShirtCalTech
    Pasedena, CA
    To "LDS Liberal" you may have registered as libertarian, but your views are socialist. You claim one thing wile promoting the complete opposite.

    =========

    YOU are a Republican,
    and as such --
    YOU have no right to define me.

  • RedShirtCalTech Pasedena, CA
    Sept. 25, 2014 1:20 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" you may have registered as libertarian, but your views are socialist. You claim one thing wile promoting the complete opposite.

    Also, FYI, this article is not talking about people who are part of the Libertarian party, but is about people who follow the libertarian philosophy.

    To "2 bits" no, it isn't possible to be libertarian and a socialist. Those are opposites. You can't be against big government at the same time you are for it. You can be a socialist and a member of the Libertarian Party, but you are not ideologically a libertarian.

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 1:13 p.m.

    2 bits:
    I agree that the Libertarian Party needs more structure and organization but this is typical of younger parties in general. I would say they are improving their communication and tightening down their platform to a clearer message, so it will be interesting to see how it progresses moving forward.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 12:40 p.m.

    @Kayser (11:03 a.m),

    It's very possible to be a Libertarian and also have some Socialist sympathies or views. They aren't mutually exclusive.

    That's the thing with being a Libertarian... they don't exclude ANYBODY (unlike the 2 political parties). That's why vocal atheists (like Penn Jillette, of Penn & Teller) as well as outspoken evangelicals, and business men (like the Koch Brothers), and crazy people (like Glenn Beck) are ALL welcomed into the fold, and not required to disavow their personal views to call themselves a "Libertarian".

    It's a broad tent. It's just so broad that they can't agree on something, and therefore can't get a unified view or "platform" out there in the media (because they are all over the place).

    But you are welcome to be a Libertarian (christian or not). And you are welcome to be a Libertarian (rich OR poor). You are welcome to be a Libertarian (Socialist or Constitutional Fundamentalist). That's the beauty of it!

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 12:37 p.m.

    re: Say No to BO

    "As I said above, let the Libertarians stand on their own and tell us their platform. No more co-opting the GOP.Stand on your own and tell us what you believe and leave the Republican Party alone."

    Unlike the GOP, there is not 1 flavor of Libertarian. I'd bet LDS Lib & I have a few common political beliefs. But, we differ more than 1 size fits all that some of the Tea Party/Social Conservatives that post frequently on the DN do.

    Poor Republican party? If it weren't for Reagan's inclusiveness of the Goldwater wing; he would NOT have gotten elected.

    You want the Libertarians to go away? Why then did Faux news have both Stossel & Judge Napolitano on the air for awhile?

  • Cougsndawgs West Point , UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 12:37 p.m.

    Some commenters here need to read the Libertarian platform. The gross misunderstanding of it's contents exhibited here is an example of why politics is so dysfunctional these days. We stand ready to defend or ready to accuse depending on which side of the bipartisan aisle we sit on without care to study the facts...instead believing whatever the latest and greatest talking head in our party leads us to believe. Please, for your own sakes, study the Libertarian platform and then ask yourselves if it doesn't more closely resemble the ideals of our forefathers and the constitution they wrote than the rhetoric being thrown around in the Republican and Democratic parties.

    Many of you are trying to paint the Libertarian Party as a band of lawless anarchists when nothing could be further from the truth. It's not laws they are opposed to, it's who's enforcing them, and on whom it is being enforced. It's whether those laws are constitutionally justifiable considering individual rights. After reading the platform, please delve into the writings of Jefferson and Madison and ask yourself if the Repub & Dem platforms are as close to their words as the Libertarian.

  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 12:08 p.m.

    As I said above, let the Libertarians stand on their own and tell us their platform.
    No more co-opting the GOP.
    Stand on your own and tell us what you believe and leave the Republican Party alone.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihuahua, 00
    Sept. 25, 2014 12:00 p.m.

    Irony Guy

    As long as it doesn't hurt anybody else then you are right. But if you think that includes breaking the law, I think you got that confused for something else.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Sept. 25, 2014 11:59 a.m.

    Just to show how ignorant Utahns are of "Libertarians"...

    Red signifies Republicans
    Blue signifies Democrats

    What color signifies "Libertarian"?


    Part II

    An Elephant is the Republican mascot,
    A Donkey is Democrat mascot,

    What is the Libertarian mascot?

    Part III

    Who was the Libertarian candidadte last election,
    or before that,
    or before that?

    If you can not answer any of those simple elementary questions without looking them up,
    then YOU clearly are not a Libertarian.

    Say it all you want, but you are NOT.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Sept. 25, 2014 11:24 a.m.

    Libertarianism is known within my religious tradition as "Mahanism." It's the philosophy that I can do anything I darn well please to get gain and you have no right to stop me.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 11:03 a.m.

    I took one of those online political orientation quizzes recently. The interesting thing is that it found I agree with libertarians 60% of the time, and I agree with socialists 60% of the time. So it is possible to hold divergent positions on different issues. Either that or I'm schizophrenic.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 10:52 a.m.

    I think a LOT of Utahs are Libertarian in their views (it's not a one-size-fits-all type of philosophy you know), but most of them end up deciding to vote Republican because they want their vote to count, and the absolutely positively DON'T want the Democrat.

    Now... IF Democrats could bend their platform to be a LITTLE more Libertarian... I think it may go the other way someday in Utah (where these people are not necessarily a Democrat, but they agree mostly with them and absolutely don't want the Republican, so they vote Democrat). It has in the past.

    It's up to the Democrats to come back to us (IMO)...

    Do I think it will happen?... Not a chance...

  • VIDAR Murray, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 10:50 a.m.

    original state motto: MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS Pretty sure the original pioneers could be called Libertarians

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihuahua, 00
    Sept. 25, 2014 10:33 a.m.

    Not libertarian enough unfortunately. Nothing would make me more happier than to see the party purge the United States Government of all these war mongering tyrannical neoliberals and neocons.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 10:23 a.m.

    Most Conservatives "claim" to be Libertarian -- but are NOT!

    I have been a registered "Libertarian" for over 27 years.
    and I get HAMMERED by Utah Republicans and fellow Latter-Day Saints for it daily.

    Utah is about the most Anti-Libertarian state in the Union.

  • The Jimmer Okemos, MI
    Sept. 25, 2014 10:18 a.m.

    @ Ronnie W.

    Libertarian philosophy is simple (unrealistically): government should protect life, liberty, and property and prohibit no conduct that does not (supposedly) infringe on the rights of others. All policy positions flow from that simple principle. If you don't support the policies that follow from it then maybe you are a libertarian politically but not philosophically.

    By the way, the national libertarian platform specifically says that government should have no role in regulating abortion; thus, abortion should be available to anyone who chooses it. That doesn't mean the party is "pro" abortion but the consequence would be that abortion is legal.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 10:07 a.m.

    The problem with Libertarians and the comments above intended to stereotype them (assuming they are like a traditional political-party that think the same and can be organised) is... Libertarians aren't into group-think, or party-rhetoric. They are mostly "divergent strands". They don't all believe or want the same things. They wont carry one unified banner. Because of this... they are IMPOSSIBLE to organize, they won't work together, they don't support the same things, work towards the same things, vote for the same things... because they are so divergent and all over the place.

    It's been said that Libertarians will never win a big election because... they can't be organized and work together. Some say, "Organizing Libertarians is like herding cats".... they are so distracted and going every which way, you can't get a real movement going (because there are so many divergent movements going so many different directions). They disagree with each other. They fight each other. They end up defeating their own candidates most of the time.

    ==========

    The usual political-attack tactic of grouping them and saying, "They all want this... or that"... don't work with Libertarians and Independents.

  • Ronnie W. Layton, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 9:58 a.m.

    @slcdenizen

    "The largest demographic that sways libertarian: mid to late twenties, semi-employed, semi-educated, speaks more about the philosophy than anything else."

    Lies. I looked it up and only 1/4 of self defined libertarians are under the age of 30. I am all for a discussion but is had to be based on truth.

  • Ronnie W. Layton, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 9:47 a.m.

    @The Jimmer

    "It appears you are not fully familiar with the libertarian platform or libertarian philosophy. "

    I am familiar with your definition. I just don't agree with it. As a Libertarian, I would say you can't really tell me what I believe. It's the same as when people tell Mormons they aren't Christians. Libertarians come in all shapes and sizes as do republicans and democrats.

    Ron Paul himself, is strongly pro-life and introduced a bill to define life at the moment of conception at the federal level. He is definitely not for abortion. If Ron Paul isn't a Libertarian then no ones is.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Sept. 25, 2014 9:43 a.m.

    The Libertarian Party Platform is available for all to read. Google it.

    I don't agree with most of the planks of their platform. That doesn't mean that they are wrong and I am right; it simply means that our politics are different.

    Being against government regulation doesn't make me a Libertarian.

    Being against the transfer of wealth from the worker to the indolent doesn't make me a Libertarian.

    Being for private property rights without interference from government doesn't make me a Libertarian.

    All of us share a commonality of ideas. When we strengthen the common points of interest and discuss the points that differ, we progress.

  • slcdenizen Murray, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 9:36 a.m.

    The best education one can provide a libertarian is a leadership role, or position of consequence that requires trade-offs. They'll swiftly change their passionate beliefs. The largest demographic that sways libertarian: mid to late twenties, semi-employed, semi-educated, speaks more about the philosophy than anything else.

  • The Jimmer Okemos, MI
    Sept. 25, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    @Ronnie W.

    "As far as social issues: abortion, same-sex marriage, prostitution, libertarians aren't "for" these issues, they are just in favor of letting the states decide."

    It appears you are not fully familiar with the libertarian platform or libertarian philosophy.

    True libertarians advocate for live and let live; no victimless crimes; utilitarianism, etc. They prefer state/local government to make decisions over the federal government, but ideally they want no government involvement in these issues.

  • Ronnie W. Layton, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 8:28 a.m.

    I don't pretend to speak for the whole libertarian movement, but most of the ignorance I have seen on these boards indicates to me most people don't know what is means to be a Libertarian.

    As far as social issues: abortion, same-sex marriage, prostitution, libertarians aren't "for" these issues, they are just in favor of letting the states decide.

    @Say no to BO - Your "serious problems" are mostly lies. I am a libertarian and I don't think any of the things you listed are things I am supposedly for. It's funny you say an "extreme" approach to slashing government. Is being against outrageous government and against going into debt trillions of dollars extreme?

    Bush and Obama did little good for us. If any approach besides those two is "extreme" I am afraid our fate is sealed.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Sept. 25, 2014 8:27 a.m.

    Most laws we have protect society. Innocent people are hurt when predators are allowed to run rampant. Making drugs legal helps the drug pusher, not the innocent person who believes that he will never become addicted. Those who want "freedom" must first realize that with agency comes accountability. Are they willing to pay the cost of ruined lives that results when laws are abandoned?

  • GaryO Virginia Beach, VA
    Sept. 25, 2014 8:09 a.m.

    "In many ways, Utah seems like a prime state to accept a place in Draper’s emerging libertarian America."

    Sure why not?

    Utah could lead the way by abolishing all victimless crimes.

    Casinos and bordellos could line the streets of Provo, and make unnecessary those long commutes to Nevada for Utah's porn addicted denizens.

    Just think of the tax revenue Utah could rake in by allowing the sale of high quality recreational drugs. With all of that revenue, personal state taxes could be abolished, thus accomplishing another Libertarian goal.

    And entrepreneurial possibilities would be greatly expanded in Utah . . . Beautiful fields of Cannabis from horizon to horizon. And little Mom and Pop meth labs competing to produce the very best product at the very lowest prices. And of course, everything would be regulated for safety and quality purposes.

    Yes, Utah could be quite the Libertarian Utopia, couldn't it?

  • The Jimmer Okemos, MI
    Sept. 25, 2014 7:48 a.m.

    Most Utahns will dislike more libertarian policy positions than isolationism and drug policy; they will also dislike legalized prostitution, same-sex marriage, and abortion, among others.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 7:16 a.m.

    I've found that most people who call themselves libertarians are really just conservative Republicans who favor low taxes for the rich, no regulations for business, and no social welfare programs. When it comes to social issues they are not libertarian at all.

  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    Sept. 25, 2014 6:26 a.m.

    Conservatives share a few things with Libertarians, most notably less regulation.
    But there are some serious problems with libertarianism.
    Legalizing street drugs.
    Decimating the Department of Defense.
    Lack of support for Israel.
    Open borders.
    An extreme approach to slashing government.

    The one thing that has boosted interest in Libertarians is that they have co-opted the GOP primaries. They have no soapbox of their own so they become an asterisk in the GOP campaigns. Personally, I think they should get their own room and stand on their own principles.